Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:November:22 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2008/11/22-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:52075 Activity:nil
        Bush pushes for free trade, allowing unskilled and uneducated work
        to move to overseas so that unskilled and uneducated Americans
        can get better education in community college where they can be
        productive again in corporations like Walmart and McDonalds.
2008/11/22-24 [Uncategorized] UID:52076 Activity:kinda low
11/22   I have a masterlock padlock that is closed and locked up, but
        I forgot the combo. Is there anyway I can open it up? Any useful
        ideas appreciated. Thanks!
        \_ If it were so easy for common people to open it up, every thief
           would be doing it already. Your two choices are: locksmith
           (a lot of them are former lock pick criminals) or bruce force.
           Fortunately, most combo locks are not very secure so bruce
           force works quite well. Most padlocks can be broken by punching
           it at a certain angle with a huge hammer. Look it up.
        \_ bolt cutter or locksmith.
                \_ the goal was to avoid those. -op
           I have never tried this, btw, so I can't verify if it works.
           If you do verify, let me know, thanks.
2008/11/22-24 [Uncategorized] UID:52077 Activity:nil
11/22   welcome back, duck!
2008/11/22-29 [Uncategorized] UID:52078 Activity:nil
11/22   people of berkeley, anyone have on old TRAC phone or suitable
        unlocked phone that takes a small sim chip?  I need one for a
        few days in the future.  i will give you cash! let me know - danh
        \_ I have an unlocked Treo 650 that takes a regular sim card.
           Will that work for you?
           \_ sure.  email me.  i need to let some korean house guests
              use phone while in states.
2008/11/22-12/1 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Finance/Investment] UID:52079 Activity:moderate
11/22   Pension gap divides public and private workers:
        At what point do we Just Say No? Making more money *after*
        retiring seems like an issue. I say this as someone with family
        who retired from the military who makes more now than when active.
        \_ Come back when you stay at your crappy public sector job for 20+
        \_ have you ever served?
        \_ Public sector do not get stock options, generally do not get
           bonuses, they do not get 401k matching, they do not have ESPP
           options [there are obscure exceptions], they dont have crazy
           expense accounts, they get most of their income on W-2, so their
           tax loopholes are limited [compared to say 1099 people]. Sure
           there are lame public sector employees and there is fraud and
           corruption, but it's silly to focus as a class on military or
           say CALPERS pensions. Take a look at something like the finance
           industry which actively conspires with its elites by structuring
           compensation [moving income to cap gains], paying for what is
           clearly private income as corporate expense [car leases, club
           memberships, subsidized loans], helping individual incorporate etc.
           [yes, i know there are some exception to the above]. You might
           looking at how LLNL is doing under public vs private management
           (when Bechtel took over, people were basically kicked out of
           CALPERS) ... $280M in cost overrruns and the lab continues to
           deteriorate. Note also: the quality of "public employee/govt
           worker" is quie different at a UCB, the National Labs, or the SEC
           vs say the Port of Oakland.
           Can you honestly say that these employees are overpaid? I am
           a mid-level manager in a Fortune 500 company and I make more
           than the Undersecretary of the Navy. This is nuts. Low level
           employees, like bus drivers and mechanics, are probably overpaid
           in the civil service sector though. We need stronger unions in
           the private sector, obviously.
           \_ I think people are missing the point here, which is that we
              are paying certain people more to *not* work than to work.
              That makes absolutely no sense. So for 20 years of good work
                \- are you against paid sick leave? how about
                   employer subsidized health care? how about
                   employeer subsidized health care? how about
                   dependent coverage ... i mean that's paying for
                   people who dont even work for you. the person
                   missing the point is you, and the point is
                   "net present value" (of benefits) in this case
                   [although  really there are a few other points ...
                   risk and  return, at will employment vs public sector
                   terms, and to some extent "the sanctity of contract".
                   \_ "net present value" is too effing high. Only in your
                      socialist utopia does someone make more money at
                      retirement than when working.
                      \- do you understand the difference between when
                         money is "made" and when it is "paid"?
                         the issue is *length of service* i.e. the
                         amount of time over which you are earning the
                         money, not the age/time you are collecting it.
                         there is nothing magically different between
                         your pension being 99% of your income and 101%.
                         there is a big difference between whether you
                         earned it after 20 yrs or 40 yrs or whether
                         you are gettign paid at age 55 or 65.
              these people get 20-30-40 years of paychecks at, or for more
              than, the wage they retired at?! That's a sure way to
              bankruptcy. I am in private sector and I make more, but at
              age 65 I will get jack shit and that's the way most of
              industry is. Why should Uncle Sam do any different?
              \_ Because those people took lower-paying jobs partly because
                 of the retirement benefits and job security.  A simple
                 choice of how to run your business, if you're one of the
                 people who thinks government should run like a business
                 (it shouldn't).  -tom
                 \_ The jobs are not really that much lower-paying. You
                    might have a point if they were all working for 50% of
                    market rates, but the reality is that government
                    workers are paid pretty well. We've already been over
                    \_ we've "been over that", you mean, back when you
                       made ridiculous assertions that were flatly contradicted
                       by the data you were presenting?  -tom
                       \_ You mean when I showed you that tree trimmers for
                          LA County were making $70K or something like
                          that? That workers in SF were routinely making
                          over $100K? That crazy sysadmin pulled down
                          something like $120K? The DWP workers pull down
                          big bucks? Please rely on the actual data
                          and not your faulty memory and perceptions.
                          Here's a good start: the link I just posted,
                          which no one bothered to read.
                          \_ Data points with no context are meaningless.
                             The link you just posted is a USA Today story
                             with an editorial slant and similarly
                             context-free numbers.   -tom
                             \_ How about the UC article some other kind person
                                dug up? You are always rationalizing. Get your
                                head out of the sand and WAKE UP!
                                \_ The UC article doesn't say anything about
                                   compensation relative to the private
                                   industry.  And I agree that people shouldn't
                                   be able to retire and come back to work
                                   full time at the same salary; in fact,
                                   it's against UC policy to do so, and
                                   the article says they're going to
                                   crack down on the very small number of
                                   cases where it has happened.  -tom
                    \_ Those ES level government workers I gave you the wiki
                       link to are making 50% or less what they would make
                       for similary responsible jobs in the private sector.
                \_ 20 years is an extreme exaggeration, except for the military
                   you don't retire after 20 years and even there you only make
                   50% of your active duty salary. You don't make your case
                   stronger by exaggeration, you just make yourself look
                   \_ Actual data: If I were to retire from UC at age 50,
                      with 24 years of service (I started working here at
                      age 26), I would get less than 30% of my final
                      salary.  -tom
                      \_ Actual data: read the article
                         \_ Your confirmation bias is showing.  -tom
                            \_ I'm the one who is biased? Check out how
                               your UC colleagues are doing.
                   \_ Did you read the article I posted?
                      \_ Yes, and it said nothing about retiring at 20 years.
                         You just made that part up.
                         \_ How long do you think a police chief worked
                            who retired at age 46? Certainly not 30 years.
                            WTF should someone 46 years old be retired and
                            making $125K/year for the rest of his life to
                            sit on his ass at taxpayer expense? He might
                            make more money not working than he did when
                            he worked over the course of his life. We
                            can't afford those excesses for civil servants. He
                            can collect when he's 65 like everyone else.
                            Getting full salary at that time would be more than
                            generous. I'd support him getting HALF his salary
                            at age 65. To get a raise when retiring at age 46
                            is beyond the pale. He should still be contributing
                            to society in some way at that young age and
                            not sitting on his ass cashing checks from the
                            \_ Once again, you're using one anecdote from
                               an article with an editorial slant and
                               with no context, and suggesting that the
                               issue is meaningful and widespread.  It's
                               not.  Aren't you suspicious when the article
                               says it will "boost his retirement benefit to
                               *as much as* $125,000 a year"?  Why the
                               qualifier?  [Here's why--they're not telling
                               you the whole story.]  You'll believe what
                               you want to believe, go ahead, but you really
                               are demonstrating complete cluelessness here.
                               "Bill Fenniman retired in January 2007 after 27
                                years in law enforcement, the last 17 as Chief
                                of Police in the City of Dover NH." 35% more
                                than your claim of 20 years, it turns out.
                                And it turns out that he is contributing.
                                I hope to retire at 50 on my 401k and savings,
                                who are you to tell me I can't? I will probably
                                contribute to society in some way afterward,
                                but that is my business, isn't it?
                                \_ 401k and savings is your money. Do as you
                                   wish with it. Not the same as getting
                                   free checks for life starting at age 46.
                                   \_ A worker's pension belongs to that
                                      worker just as much as his 401k does.
                                      \_ Of course. And how many employers
                                         are contributing enough money to
                                         their 401k plans such that you are
                                         guaranteed to maintain your full-time
                                         salary after you retire? Not many.
                                         The government is paying A LOT more
                                         than market for this. I've been
                                         in the workforce 13 years and
                                         there's barely 1 year worth of
                                         my current salary in my 401k and that
                                         counts my money plus my employer's
                                         very generous 8.5% contribution.
                                         (Most 401ks match a lot less than
                                         this.) I read that the average
                                         employee has about $100K in his 401k.
                                         This dude is getting that each year
                                         guaranteed forever starting at age 46.
                                         As a taxpayer, I feel ripped off.
                                         BTW, EBRI says that the average 401k
                                         balance of someone in their 60s with
                                         30 years of tenure is $190,593.
                                         \_ If you don't understand why you
                                            can't compare 401k balances
                                            directly with pensions, it's not
                                            worth wasting any more time on
                                            you.  -tom
                                            \_ You can't compare directly,
                                               but you can compare.
                                         \_ So you took the gamble of a private
                                            sector job with higher pay and
                                            lower benefits, it hasn't worked out
                                            that well for you, and now you are
                                            upset that others who took the
                                            safer route are doing better? What
                                            a piece of work you are! What is
                                            the value of 15k + 7k employer
                                            is the value of 15k + 7k employer
                                            match invested yearly for 27 years
                                            at a 10% (average stock market)
                                            gain? Here, I will make it really
                                            easy for your: $2.8M. I bet you want
                                            to privatize social security, too.
                                            Am I right?
                                            \_ Most people "take the gamble"
                                               of a private sector job
                                               with roughly THE SAME pay
                                               as the government and end
                                               up worse for it. Another
                                               way of stating this is that
                                               the average person in the
                                               private sector is receiving
                                               less compensation than the
                                               average person in the
                                               public sector. You cannot
                                               count the $15K, because that's
                                               my own money and you should
                                               be aware that $7K is hardly
                                               the average. So your $2.8M
                                               number is bogus. Yes, I do
                                               want to privatize SS, but
                                               that's neither here nor there.
                                               \_ you keep asserting that
                                                  public sector employees
                                                  are compensated more, but
                                                  asserting it over and over
                                                  doesn't make it true.  -tom
                                               \_ You are full of it. I showed
                                                  you the BLS stats that proved
                                                  that private and public
                                                  sector pay, including benefits
                                                  was similar, but you ignored
                                             \_ Stop stomping my edits. As I
                                                was saying, I showed you the BLS
                                                data that public and private
                                                sector workers are paid similary
                                                including benefits and you
                                                ignored it.
                                                   CA says it pays lower
                                                   than other public
                                                   sector employees and
                                                   yet even its salaries
                                                   are comparable (and
                                                   sometimes even lead) the
                                                   private sector.
                                                   Salaries, not total
                                                   \_ ...when you compare the
                                                      state maximum to the
                                                      private sector median.
                                                      \_ Did you read why
                                                         the State did that?
                                                         \_ yes.  the
                                                            justification is
                                                            ridiculous.  -tom
                                                   \_ That is not how I read
                                                      Table 4. All above average
                                                      private sector paying jobs\
                                                      pay lower than market rate
                                                      when working for The
                                                      State (and most below
                                                      average paying jobs are
                                                      higher, why might that be
                                                      do you think?) Managerial
                                                      jobs are particularly low
                                                      \_ Sure, and how many
                                                         Americans are CFOs
                                                         and MDs?
                                                         \_ And programmers and
                                                            accountants, and
                                                            engineers and
                                                            nurses and ...
                                                  \_ Why don't they just work
                                                     for the government then,
                                                     if they pay is the same
                                                     and the benefits higher?
                                                     \_ Most people, like MOTD,
                                                        are laboring under the
                                                        impression that those
                                                        jobs pay less.
                                                        \_ you think that
                                                           "most people" are
                                                           incapable of
                                                           reading job
                                                           postings which list
                                                           job descriptions and
                                                           salary ranges? -tom
                                   \_ Contract law only applies to private
                                      sector employees?
2008/11/22-28 [Reference/Religion] UID:52080 Activity:nil
11/22   Everyone should watch Jesus and the Awakening to God-Consciousness
        With Deepak Chopra tonight.
           \_ sweet jesus!
              \_ bugmenot?
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:November:22 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>