Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:November:14 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2008/11/14-26 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:51970 Activity:moderate
11/13   http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/11/14/financial/f051352S72.DTL
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/6nngpm
        Sun Microsystems Inc. plans to cut up to 6,000 jobs, or 18 percent of
        its global work force, as sales of its high-end computer servers have
        collapsed.  The drastic move announced Friday highlights Sun's
        desperation to cut costs and survive as an independent company. Sun's
        shares have fallen so steeply they've crossed an ominous threshold,
        driving the company's market value below its cash on hand.
        That means investors believe the company itself is essentially
        worthless.
        lulz is this because of open source and linuz?
        \_ If Sun goes down, what happens to Mysql?
           \_ Who cares?
              \_ I care a little.  You may mock Mysql, but it is used by
                 freakin' everyone these days.
        \_ Someone will buy Sun.  heck if they're worthless, maybe I can
           buy Sun.  I've been refraining from double lattes.
           \_ Sun has become DEC.  It was a sad day when Compaq bought
              DEC. It will be a sad day when Dell or its equivalent buys
              Sun. -ex-Sun
        \_ Is this because they opensources Solaris?  How do opensource
           companies make money again?
           \_ it has nothing to do with Solaris being open.
        \_ I am a Sun guy.  I guess I am on the software-side of the house,
           so things are not as bad as the headline says.
        \_ IBM could buy Sun right now outright, lay everyone off, keep the
           contracts, and pay for the acquisition with the cash inside of Sun.
           "lulz"
           \_ shut up paolo
        \_ Bush is responsible for state of current economy! Free Tibet
           \_ shut up emarkp
           \_ You forgot to add "Iraq War" and "lolz", troll.
        \_ I am a Sun guy.  I guess I am on the software-side of the house,
           so things are not as bad as the headline says.
        \_ As a ex-Sun employee I am not surprised. Sun has been mismanaged
           for 10+ years, and is full of deadwood and useless middle managers.
           Even this job cut won't be enough for the company to survive. Pony
           tail boy needs to reduce the work force down to about 10K and put
           an end to the java religion w/in the company is to survive in the
           long run.
        \_ As a ex-Sun employee, I think there are many reasons for Sun's
           problems.  Linux is one reason, at least in the workstation /
           low-end server market.  Intel is another reason. Sparc is just
           not all that important anymore.
           But the two biggest reasons I think are: (1) extremely poor
           management; and (2) java.  Management at the upper levels was
           always unwilling to see reality and did not make the cuts that
           were needed in the early part of this decade.  If Sun had cut
           its staff to 10K-15K in 2002-2003, they would be reasonably well
           positioned today.
           Also, Sun has way too many middle managers and upper level
           technical deadwood (architects, sr. staff eng., &c.).  This was
           a problem that management was also unwilling to correct.  These
           people are the ones that foster the java-religion w/in the
           company.  It doesn't matter how lousy a java project is, it will
           always be selected for funding over a non-java project.  In fact,
           I saw profitable non-java projects cancelled in favor of
           incomplete and unreleasable java projects.  The only reason for
           these cancellations was that the profitable projects weren't using
           java.
           \_ Religion? You mean cult.                  -I hate Java
           \_ http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=JAVA
              Cash on hand is 2B, market cap is 3B, so your first premise
              is incorrect. Also, what you should really be looking at is
              real tangable assets minus liabilities and that is even less,
              more like $1B. But JAVA really is cheap.
              \_ I disagree. Take a look at:
                 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=JAVA
                 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=JAVA&annual
                 Maybe I am not reading this right, but it looks like Sun
                 has lost about $1.3 billion to date this year, and lost
                 $864 million in 2006.  This trend is not new and reflects
                 the unwillingness of Sun management to face the reality
                 that fewer and fewer customers need sparc, java, zfs, &c.
                 and that too many people are employed in developing things
                 that no one wants to buy.
                 - ex-Sun
                 that no one wants to buy. -ex-Sun
                 \_ Look at the cash flow chart:
                    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/cf?s=JAVA&annual
                    They had positive cash flow in both 2006 and 2007,
                    and while 2008 cash flow is negative (through
                    June), cash flow from operations was positive; the
                    negative hit is on sale purchase of stock, which
                    probably means they spent some cash to do a share
                    buyback.  (Which was probably a mistake, looking at
                    the overall situation).  In general, they're not
                    bleeding money; they're just becoming less and less
                    relevant.  -tom
                    \_ They are burning through $250M per quarter, which
                       means they have a year left if things don't turn
                       around quickly.
                       \_ Actually, it looks they just need to stop buying
                          their own stock.
                          \_ Ponytail can do no wrong.  Really does anyone
                             take seriously a man in a ponytail?
                             \_ My Little Pony
2008/11/14-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51971 Activity:nil 75%like:51954
11/12   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7650415.stm
        lulz, Pirates have spokesmen now?
        \_ we should Bailout the pirates
2008/11/14-26 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:51972 Activity:nil 84%like:51944
11/12   lulz Shephard Smith learned something in school
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHKzS5Zl6mY
        I wonder when he'll jump networks.
        \_ His comment about the media contradicts the media's statements
           about the media.
           http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/11/09/ST2008110901017.html
           \_ Actually his comment is an answer to that.  Obama got better
              media coverage because he was the better candidate for the time.
2008/11/14-26 [Consumer/Camera] UID:51973 Activity:nil
11/13   Camera nuts, may be you want a REAL camera that REAL man uses:
        http://xrl.in/128i
        \_ not funny. BZZZZZZ.
        \_ not funny. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
           \_ "lulz"
        \_ Large CCD sensor, world's largest
2008/11/14 [Politics/Domestic/California, Finance/Investment] UID:51974 Activity:nil 72%like:51977
11/14   http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/11/worst-economic.html
        BDELONG thinks we're all gonna die.
        "lulz"
2008/11/14-26 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:51975 Activity:nil
11/13   lulz Hey lulz guy, if you delete this one more time, I am going to start
        nuking the motd. -#1 lulz guy fan
        http://tinyurl.com/68g36c
        Complaint filed against Mormon church for lying about campaign
        contributions to Prop 8.
        \_ that is a gay blog
        \_ I hope you report on the result when this ridiculous case is thrown
           out.  Any lawsuits against other groups?  How about Rev. Wright's
           church?  How about any church that has had candidates behind the
           pulpit?
           \_ lulz
           \_ Why would he? Let those with that interest post their own
              junk. No one's stopping them.
2008/11/14 [Uncategorized] UID:51976 Activity:nil
11/13   Deal lolz guy. Please don't forget to take your anti-depressant.
2008/11/14-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Finance/Investment] UID:51977 Activity:low 72%like:51974 72%like:52014
11/14   lulz http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/11/worst-economic.html
        BDELONG thinks we're all gonna die.
        \_ lulz lulz   lulz   lulz      lulz   lulz     lulz        lulz
           \_ does this sequence converge?
        \_ That's a pretty terrifying chart
        \_ "worst downturn since the Great Depression" - duh?
           we're all gonna die / mad max?  I don't see that.
2008/11/14 [Uncategorized] UID:51978 Activity:moderate
11/13   lulz LOL.  LOL DUDE.
        \_ wtfstfu
           \_ WTFOMGBBQ
              \_ "BBQ"?
2008/11/14-26 [Uncategorized] UID:51979 Activity:nil
11/14   "Which Came First? Eggs Before Chickens, Scientists Now Say"
        http://www.csua.org/u/mxu (news.yahoo.com)
        http://images.teamsugar.com/files/users/1/13254/30_2007/eggdid.jpg
2008/11/14-26 [Consumer/Audio] UID:51980 Activity:nil
11/14   Economics textbook author/professor decries fallacy of expecting
        significant returns simply by holding equities for 30+ years
        link:tinyurl.com/6enshr (bloomberg.com MP3)
        Hedge fund manager Bill Ackman on Charlie Rose (haven't watched it yet,
        but I believe he says something like stocks are way undervalued)
        http://tinyurl.com/5mtfue (video.google.com)
2008/11/14-26 [Consumer/CellPhone, Computer/Companies/Apple] UID:51981 Activity:nil
11/14   Angry sysadmin gets iPhone stolen out of his hands while riding Muni,
        pummels
        thief, retrieves phone, gets back on train
        http://tinyurl.com/5poc89 (from http://valleywag.com)
        \_ huh i know that guy.  he's a KALX dj.
        \_ Muni actually
           \_ oops, tnx
2008/11/14-26 [Reference/Religion] UID:51982 Activity:nil
11/14   Red State Mormons teaching their kids to hate:
        http://www.2news.tv/news/local/34274374.html
        \_ I missed the part that they're Mormon, where is it?
           \_ That's because it's not there.  Op is a an idiot.  Are you
              surprised?
              \_ http://tinyurl.com/66jxwk
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_County,_Idaho
                 "With a strongly conservative and Mormon population..."
                 http://crooksandliars.com/node/24031/print
                 "Roughly 90 percent of the population there is LDS."
                 \_ The area is heavily LDS.  The remaining population is
                    heavily survivalist / white supremecist.
                    \_ Op is an idiot.
2008/11/14-26 [Finance/Investment] UID:51983 Activity:low
11/14   Interesting stock trader psychology I noticed today. The markets
        were mixed and I was pulling for a huge $$$ day (as opposed to the
        so-so one I ended up with) but when it became clear that was not
        going to happen and the rally died then everyone just stopped
        buying, which led to the bloodbath at the close. If you just
        looked at the open and close you would think there was a crazy
        sell-off, but the reality is that most of the eventual losses were
        over the last 10-15 minutes when the bulls decided to call it a week
        and the shorts continued to sell. Given that I expect a rally on
        next week at some point, because "it was not as bad as it looked".
        That plus the G20 meeting over the weekend. Even though my positions
        are still positive (and I usually sell at the end of every day) I will
        hold them overnight. No point selling into the hands of the shorts
        and I'm still green on the day even after the sell off.
        \_ I enjoy reading your motd posts about day trading.  Do you do this
           as a full time job?  Or do you have your brokerage account web
           site open at work at all times?  I don't have the world's most
           demanding job, but I would go insane doing my work and managing
           my account all day like you do.
           \_ All you have to do is watch a handful of stocks on a ticker.
              It's not much time at all. I get up before the markets open
              and see what's up. Then I go about my regular business until
              8am or so when I check again. Between then and lunch I just
              glance at the ticker every few minutes and then at lunch
              time I really watch intently for a time to get out (if I
              haven't already and still have a position open).
        \_ Most day traders end up losing their shorts.
           \_ This can't be true, because for most of history the market
              has risen. A rising market erases a lot of mistakes. It's more
              challenging now than it typically is. If the market is up then
              you will be up even if your buy and sell signals are goofed
              and if the market is down then you will be down no matter
              what you do.
              \_ No, it is true. Volatility + leverage + frequent trading
                 by an amature leads to most of the money ending up in the
                 hands of the pros, over time. I can show you how this works,
                 but I think you can figure it out for yourself pretty
                 easily. If you have real talent at this, you should try
                 to get a job with a brokerage and use OPM. But they aren't
                 really hiring right now.
                 \_ 1. No one said you need to use leverage. I think it
                       would be foolish to even for buy-and-hold. I don't.
                    2. You have a point that transaction fees can eat up
                       profits, but I don't pay any and "Lower profit because
                       of fees and taxes" is not the same as "losing your
                       shirt". It's just less profit (all else being
                       equal) - during a rising market, of course.
                    \_ How do you avoid commissions again?
                       \_ Maintain a certain balance in my account
           \_ All right, both you guys put forth excellent reasons.
              Is there any data?
              \_ Yes, but nothing really great and it is contradictory.
                 Part of the problem is defining what a "day trader" is.
                 There are many strategies that involve buying and selling
                 on the same day and many studies are not careful about
                 differentiating. Someone making money on spreads and
                 trading 400 times per day is doing something very different
                 from a person range trading, for instance. Leverage plays
                 a big part in it, too, because you can be wiped out very
                 quickly if you buy $100K of stock with just $25K in your
                 account if it goes against you. That's why I don't use
                 leverage, although I do use margin for legal reasons.
2008/11/14-26 [Recreation/Humor, Recreation/Pets] UID:51984 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
11/14   Alright enough of this economic meltdown we're gonna die crap.
        It's time to inject humor and entertainment into motd. Below
        is How to Tell if Your Cat is Plotting to Kill You. Funny shit
        if you love cats (or hate cats):
        http://www.catswhothrowupgrass.com/kill.php
2008/11/14-26 [Finance/Banking, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:51985 Activity:nil
11/14   An overly long article directed to Obama on how he should fix the
        farm/food system.  I actually agree with some of his points, but
        he does go little overboard toward the end.
        http://csua.org/u/mxv (NYTimes)
        \_ Forget the government, count on saving yourselves! This is a
           GREAT time for you savers to wait it out, and in a few years,
           everything will be super cheap and you'll buy properties
           and stocks that'll go up tremendously when Obama-socialism
           is over. This is the secret recipe that wealthy folks have
           used for ages. Of course, if you never had a lot of savings,
           then it's a different story.
           \_ savings? what is left will be taken by the government
           \_ Yes dear.  That's nice.  Now have some tea.
           \_ What does this have to do with the farm bill?
           \_ lulz
2008/11/14-26 [Uncategorized] UID:51986 Activity:nil
11/14   lulz I dreamed last night that as I got up, I had to select which kernel
        for my head to run that day at the grub prompt.  I need a vacation.
2008/11/14-26 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:51987 Activity:nil
11/14   When does support for Firefox 2.0.0.x end?  http://www.mozilla.com used to
        mention this, and I forgot what it said.
2008/11/14-26 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:51988 Activity:nil
11/14   lulz motd google guys involved with google video chat, I am interested
        in knowing why you went with a browser plugin, instead of going with
        Flash... like every other vid conf guy on the internet.
2008/11/14-26 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:51989 Activity:moderate
11/14   lulz why doesn't GOOG buy JAVA i mean SUN i mean whatever the hell they
        are these days.
        \_ Even GOOG isn't THAT stupid
           \_ Sorry, but WHY would Google do something like that? They
              run 99.2% Linux servers on the backend. They don't use
              Solaris for development. I mean, what does Sun have to
              offer to anyone these days?
              \_ ZFS, some SMP goodness, a quality OS, some neat stuff
                 like containers, Java, and MySQL but I'll admit it's not
                 much which is why the price is where it is. Sun has more
                 to offer than Apple does in terms of technology, but
                 can't seem to connect with users the way Apple does.
                 \_ Apple is a consumer electronics company, not a
                    technology company.  Sun's "quality" OS is being
                    phased out virtually everywhere it's implemented.  -tom
                    \_ It is true that Solaris is dying, but it is not because
                       it is inferior.
                       \_ So?  It's proprietary, it's slow-moving, it's
                          expensive.  If they'd community-sourced it 10 years
                          ago it might have beat out Linux, but at this point
                          it's dead.  -tom
                          \_ It's not proprietary nor expensive. I'm not
                             sure what slow-moving means in this context.
                             \_ It's not proprietary?  I can release
                                "Tom's Kewl Solaris Distribution," and
                                mirror all the patches Sun puts out?  Don't
                                think so.  Slow-moving means it's slow to
                                support new hardware, it's slow to get vendor
                                support for commercial/propietary applications,
                                it has poor support from most open source
                                packages as well.   -tom
                                \_ People do that with Redhat all the time.
        \_ Google is fundamentally an advertisement company.  Sun is a
           computer hardware company.  What kind of "synergy" you are thinking
           again?
           \_ I would say Sun is a software company at this point.
              \_ I work at the software side of Sun.  and don't I wish
                Sun is a software company.  But consider that almost 90% of
                the revenue is coming from hardware sales, I would consider
                it is still a hardware company more than anything else.
                \_ And yet it's not, because SPARC is all-but-dead. The
                   only value-added Sun has is in software. They better
                   figure that out right quick.
                   \_ This is similar to the problem Apple faced in
                      the mid 90s.  People were saying they needed to
                      license the OS to grow the market share for the
                      platform, but 80%+ of company revenues were from
                      hardware.  They licensed the OS, got taken to
                      the cleaners by clone makers, and tanked badly
                      while failing to grow market share.  Jobs came
                      in and focused the company on hardware, found an
                      effective niche and has been quite successful.
                      If Sun were to transition from being a hardware
                      company to being a software company, they'd have
                      to be prepared to cut 50%+ of their workforce,
                      and make a strong case for why the new software
                      company is something that businesses should be
                      investing in, which will be difficult since
                      businesses are currently deciding to get rid of
                      Sun software.  Sun actually has some decent
                      commodity Intel servers these days, but that's
                      not going to save them.  -tom
2008/11/14-26 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:51990 Activity:nil
11/14   Obama faces more threats than any other president-elect
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081114/ap_on_el_pr/obama_threats
        \_ The 9-per-centers have really lost it.
        \_ Obviously. There are a lot of KKK and closet racists out there.
2008/11/14-26 [Uncategorized] UID:51991 Activity:low
11/14   Sitting here in these chairs that I'm going to be proposing but in
        working with these governors who again on the front lines are forced
        to and it's our privileged obligation to find solutions to the
                    \_ Not interested in defending the dude. Just saying that
                       he probably didn't run because he hadn't planned it out
                       that far.
        challenges facing our own states every day being held accountable, not
        being just one of many just casting votes or voting present every
        once in a while, we don't get away with that.
        \_ I can have a normal sentence go through Google translation to
           another language and back, and it'd still make more sense than
           that.
        \_ Palin 2012!
        \_ Maybe she's not a native speaker.  Clarence Thomas likes to claim
           he's not a native English speaker, which I think it a bunch of crap.
2017/12/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/15   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:November:14 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>