Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:October:15 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
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2008/10/15-17 [Science/Space] UID:51532 Activity:nil
10/14   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081015/ap_on_sc/impure_bottled_water
2008/10/15-17 [Recreation/Dating, Reference/BayArea] UID:51533 Activity:moderate
10/14   Has anyone raised chickens in an urban environment? My friend's HOA
        in SF is vague enough to allow chickens in his backyard (2 units),
        and we've been doing some reading and talking to people who have done
        this in suburban areas, but was wondering if anyone had any specific
        advice.
        \_ Each city has it's own ordinance.  For example, Oakland doesn't
           allow cocks anywhere...but hens are fine.  Also I beleive your hen
           house is suppose to be 50 ft away from your house and your neighbor's\
           fence...which is a bit difficult to do.  Check out chicken tractors
           or moveable pens.  Also, chickens don't make good housepets, no
           matter what people tell you.
           house is suppose to be 50 ft away from your house and your
           neighbor's fence...which is a bit difficult to do.  Check out
           chicken tractors or moveable pens.  Also, chickens don't make good
           housepets, no matter what people tell you.
           \_ Oakland doesn't allow cocks anywhere?  How do all those horny
              H07 4ZN CH1X in Oakland survive the loneliness?
              H07 4ZN CH1X in Oakland survive the emptiness?
           \_ I heard that chicken tractors are pretty good for weed control.
              Just move the chickens around and they eat the small weeds.
              \_ In SF?  Where the fuck do you have a place with a backyard
                 big enough to waste on a chicken tractor?
                 \_ SF? Sorry, I got off on a tangent and was back in suburbia.
        \_ They are ornery little fuckers and your neighbors will hate you.
           Then again fresh eggs are pretty damn amazing.
           \_ Not only will your neighbors hate you, but YOU will hate you
              after being henpecked for the 20th time.  That said, the eggs
              are out of this world.  Watch out that you don't end up with
              two roosters, as they can get quite violent with each other.
              \_ I would recommend never getting roosters.  Our neighbor
                 had a rooster for a little while.  Stupid thing would wake
                 up our daughter at 3am every day.  3AM!
                 \_ Yeah, if you raise a rooster in an urban or suburban
                    area you totally deserve to be beaten.
                 \_ My neighbor has a rooster and I enjoy hearing it crow.
                    Injects some normalcy into the urban jungle. It
                    doesn't crow loudly enough for me to hear it unless
                    the windows are open. I know some neighbors are
                    pissed, but I also know others enjoy it, too. Depends
                    on how far the stick is up your ass.
                    \_ Yeah, seriously.  What's his problem with waking his
                       kids up at 3AM anyway?  Get that stick outta your ass!
              \_ Unless people are paying to watch!
        \_ I was looking at http://www.mypetchicken.com
           I plan on getting hens only. I need to read more about different
           varietals. I wasn't clear in my original post, but the intent is
           to have 2 (maybe 3) chickens and get about a dozen eggs a week.
           \_ If you've never had chickens before, they really do suck as pets.
           \_ You know, if it's a shared backyard for a 2 unit HOA you really
              should have the blessing of your condo-mate.
              \_ Not shared backyard and the upstairs unit is rented out to
                 3 guys, but yes, before going forward, I need to talk to my
                 HOA (the other guy).
           \_ Highly recommended that you do your research before getting your
              chickens. Some varieties thrive in a small environment; others
              will kill each other if not given plenty of space to roam around
              in.
2008/10/15-17 [Finance/Investment] UID:51534 Activity:nil
10/14   Stocks down further. Are you avoiding a falling knife, or
        or going in because it may have bottomed out already? Discuss.
        \_ You worry about those fighters! I'll worry about the tower! <groan>
           \_ Millenium Falcon == bond traders/market
        \_ Traders are expecting Thu, Fri, or both to be significant "up"
           days as Fri is an OpEx day.  Sticksave announcements or significant
           LIBOR contraction therefore need to happen from now through Monday
           morning for us to keep this propped up.  (what we do not need is
           another bank/country going critical).  Economic numbers were
           horrible this morning.
           \_ What does OpEx mean? Options Expiry?
2008/10/15-20 [Finance/Investment] UID:51535 Activity:moderate
10/14   DJIA and S&P500 suffer worst 1-day percentage declines since 1987 Black
        Monday crash.
        \_ It's all ACORN's fault.
           \_ You laugh, but the market is clearly terrified that there is
              going to be Obama Socialism in America.
              \_ Clearly!  Why just the other day the market and I were
                 having dinner and after it had a few too many glasses of
                 wine it sheepishly admitted that while things may have been
                 rough lately, what with the housing market and all, what
                 really was worrying it, deep down inside, was the prospect
                 of Obama Socialism in America.
                 really kept it up at night was the prospect of Obama
                 Socialism in America.  It took real willpower not to pat it
                 on the hand and say "It's ok, we've all known this about you
                 for a while now.  There's nothing to be ashamed of."
              \_ Yeah, that damn socialist might bail out the largest
                 insurance company in the world, or *nationalize the banks*!
                 Oh wait...
        \_ sorry about my earlier post where I had written something like "get
           rid of 50% more on some multi-week rally". I had originally meant to
           write "get rid of 50% on some rally which may last from 1 day to
           a few months".  I'm sticking to my original thesis:  this fucker can
           collapse at ANY moment, and, you may see REAL panic selling, and
           panic or not, the strong likelihood is it's going down. -op
           \_ I bought today. If tomorrow is a bad day I will buy more. I'm
              making money with these fluctuations by trading, but I still
              have the majority of my $$$ "buy and hold". I'm down on the
              year because of that, but I'm not 64 so I don't sweat it.
              \_ an excellent way to approach this.  as long as you have a
                 model.  i'm all in favor of keeping 80% in "safety", and 20%
                 doing whatever the hell you want.  although I would have
                 liquidated that 80% a few weeks ago when I mentioned it and
                 had it ready to buy now at lower prices.
                 \_ "Had it ready" is not the same as buying. Or is it?
                    \_ let's put it this way:  if you had sold when I said, you
                       would currently be very right.
                       \_ I don't believe you (or anyone else) can time
                          the markets. However, you can do an analysis and
                          realize that a global recession isn't the end of
                          corporate earnings for many, many businesses and
                          that the markets are reacting to fear and uncertainty
                          instead of acting rationally. That's the time to
                          make smart purchases. Many companies might see
                          growth slow or sales decline, but that doesn't
                          necessarily dictate a 50% drop in stock value. I
                          wouldn't touch most banks with a 10 foot pole
                          right now, but people are still going to drink
                          beer, get laid, buy aspirin, etc. KO (which I do
                          not own) fell 34% this year because why? No good
                          reason. Even if sales slowed a little (which they
                          didn't) you've got to be kidding me... You wait
                          for the rally to buy. I'll buy before the rally
                          and lock in some really nice dividend yields
                          while I'm at it. I figure in another 10-15 years
                          my dividends will be yielding double figures based
                          on what I bought some stocks for. Some are
                          already close. Sure, the dividends might be cut
                          some near-term, but I don't sweat that.
                          \_ see my post "clearly what I am saying".  I agree
                             with you on many points, actually.  the biggest
                             place where we differ is what "timing the market"
                             means, but we can agree to disagree.
                          \_ What do Soros and Buffett do except time the
                             market?
                             \_ I don't know about Soros, but Buffett
                                looks at long-term potential and doesn't
                                worry about what the markets overall will do
                                tomorrow or 3 months from now.
                                \_ He holds onto his cash and waits to buy
                                   when he sees good values. I don't know how
                                   you can call that anything but "timing."
              \_ I'm on the same boat as you are, and I can hold for a very
                 long time, though if the market goes down 15% more,
                 I'd be a little bit worried because I'd have to keep
                 buying until... I run out, and god knows how low it's
                 gonna get. My gutsy feeling is that we're already hitting
                 the bottom, though, if it goes down say, 30-50% more,
                 I'd be very very anxious. But like you said, I'm not 64
                 so I got a few decades to wait, so that is good news.
           \_ This is called "testing the bottom."
              \_ clearly what I am saying is that there is a strong likelihood
                 that bottom will fail from 1 day to x months from now.  that's
                 a thesis that may be totally wrong, but i do believe it.
                 I also believe there is great merit to the "buy well-
                 diversified value stocks in businesses you understand" model
                 of investment--there's nothing wrong with that.  Index and
                 targeted retirement funds though ...
                 of investment--there's nothing wrong with that.  to put it
                 most clearly, the conclusion one could have reached not too
                 long ago was:  "My investments are excellent and diversified.
                 The stock will outperform.  However, the market is
                 overleveraged, and as funds and other financial entities
                 delever out of the market to raise cash in a multi-year,
                 global credit deleveraging (with all its associated nastiness)
                 I will move out into cash and replace it into the same stocks
                 at a lower entry point, maximizing my long-term compounded
                 gains.  When is that entry point?  Well, let's start with
                 the idea that it's a multi-year slow down ..."
                 btw, I'm also the guy who posted about traders expecting a
                 bounce tomorrow, Fri, or both, as Fri is OpEx day.  Yes, I'm
                 playing with my 20% money.
                 bounce tomorrow, Fri, or both, as Fri is OpEx day.
                 today, funds shat out of overlevered energy and commodity
                 based equity investments at a "high price", because they
                 believe in the multi-year thesis too.
                 I wonder how long it will take to purge all the levered
                 emerging market bets.
                 \_ What makes you believe that there are levered EM bets?
                    To me, China looks like it has the healthiest balance sheet
                    of any economy period right now.
                    \_ EM in general will continue to get super-smacked by
                       credit deleveraging.  as far as fund investment, "hot"
                       areas, like energy, commods and EM, were all levered up.
                       what i said was that, of these 3, EM has furthest to go
                       \_ Why do you think that EM is levered? You still have
                          not answered this question, just restated that you
                          are convinced that it is true. Stocks generally
                          are hard to leverage, unlike those other asset
                          classes.
                          \_ okay you got me there.  all i've got is that
                             general feeling based on the forums I troll.
2008/10/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:51536 Activity:nil
10/14   Palin continues to be at war with unambigious truths.
        http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_10/015198.php
2008/10/15-17 [Uncategorized] UID:51537 Activity:nil
10/14   Science - If you ain't pissing people off, you ain't doing it right:
        http://abstrusegoose.com/strips/a_wise_man_once_said.PNG
        \_ A wise man once said, internet comics are stupid
2008/10/15-20 [Consumer/Camera] UID:51538 Activity:low
10/14   Does it make sense to buy nice lenses (2.8L) to be used on your
        non-full-frame DSLR?
        \_ Why not?  A nice lens is a nice lens.  Also, 2.8L doesn't say much.
           I mean, 135mm f/2.0L is a nice lens, regardless of if the body it's
           attached to has a crop sensor or a full-frame sensor.  There's no
           other way to get f/2.0 at that focal length, so there's nothing
           more to think about.
           \_ For starter, it's like putting a Z rated 180MPH tire on
              a Toyota Prius. It may work, but... WHY???
              \_ No, that would decrease the Prius' gas mileage.
        \_ LOL, I got it.  ok, here is the thing.  "L" doesn't necessary mean
           "good" lenses.  There are plenty of lenses that is not "L" in the
           canon lines that has equivalent optical quality.   Secondly, nobody
           describe lens in your way.  You don't say "2.8L" as it is some sort
           of engine displacement.  you can say f/2.8 or f2.8
           Thirdly, optical quality of a lens has NOTHING TO DO with the
           maximum aperature.  There are plenty of good lenses that is actually
           very slow.  I've seen good lens that has aperature of f/4, f/5.6
           even f/8.
           My advices to you are: always go for best optical quality
           lens you can afford.  If it means sacrafice in features (AF/MF
           clutch, Image stablization), zoom range (smaller zoom range or even
           fixed-focal length), slower AF, or simply getting an used one
           instead a new one, do it.  2nd.  Always go for the lens that is
           full-frame compatible.   Camera is moving towards full-frames, and
           \_ uh, no. Nikon is embracing DX, just look at their extensive
              DX lens lines (much more than Canon). Nikon is aiming for the
              consumer end DSLR market. They even made it possible to
              mount DX lenses on FX bodies, whereas it's not possible on
              Canon. Nikon is really losing grounds on the professional end
              DSLR niche. Canon is not really embracing the consumer end DSLR
              and instead is re-focusing on professional full-frame
              cameras. There are signs that they're cooling off on the
              1.6X EF-S end that the Nikon is dominating right now.
              \_ the reason why I said full-frame eventually going to
                 prevail is simple.  While non-full-frame's image sensor
                 is a lot cheaper than full-frame today, the ultra-wide
                 angle kit-lens is a lot more to make than the wide angle
                 kit-lens.  While cost of manufacturing image sensor is
                 coming down at a rapid (eventhough not rapid enough even
                 for me) rate, cost of making lenses doesn't go down that
                 quickly.  Eventually, it is going to be a lot cheaper to
                 make a full-frame body and attach with a cheap zoom, than
                 making a smaller sensor and attach with a more expensive
                 ultra-wide angle zoom.         kngharv
                 \- i agree with your mkt read over holobs, but i think you
                    need to provide more guidance than "buy the best optical
                    quality lenses you can afford". ideally, you would have
                    some sense of what you budget is a couple of years out
                    and what kind fo photography is the most meaningful to
                    you, but usually this is a case of "decision making under
                    uncertainty" and it's the uncertainty you need to guide
                    somebody through ... as opposed to picking between Canon Y
                    and Nikon X or Lens A+B or Lens C. i think some people
                    would prefer to say able able to shoot 6/10 landscape and
                    6/10 portraits and 6/10 telephoto and others might prefer
                    to shoot 8/10 landscape, 8/10 portraits, and 2/10 t'photo.
                    and again, i think if you are shooting in "difficult
                    situation" [hiking/climbing or other wise on-the-go,
                    unsafe [theft or damage] etc] weight and cost really,
                    really matter. a 3lbs +$1k high quality lens which you
                    hardly ever use because it is an asspain to haul around
                    may not serve you as well as a >$500 zoom. if you are just
                    getting into photography and choosing betwee a $500 lens
                    and a higher quality $1500 lens, spend the $1000 on a
                    ticket to somewhere photogenic ... like Nepal or HKG.
                    \_ except that's like bringing a lot of condoms to
                       Amsterdam only to find that you don't have enough
                       money to blow on um... local attractions.
                       \- the ambiguously asexual psb does not get humor.
           your lens is going to last a lot longer *AND* retain a lot more
           resell value than your camera body.           kngharv
           \_ I've been waiting for a full-frame body for less than 1.5K
              since 2002. I'm tired of waiting. Advice?
              \_ Buy a non-full-frame body?
                 \_ I have a D80, should I skip the D90 upgrade path?
                 \_ Seconded. -tom
                 \_ Third EXCEPT for the D40 since it can't use regular
                    AF for auto-focus. Many signs point that AF will be
                    around for only 5-10 years since new lenses today
                    like the brand new AF-S 50mm f/1.4 that just announced
                    will replace the AF 50mm lines, for about $100 more.
                    \_ yup, that is why I own a D50 and go out of my way
                        to look for a refurbished D50 for my friends who
                        want go into photography and want to stick with Nikon.
                        \_ Why not own both Canon + Nikon? It doesn't cost
                           that much more considering the TOTAL system you'll
                           spend anyways on a variety of good prime lenses.
                           PS I hate zoom lenses. Convenient, shitty pics.
                           \- your brain -> ISO 32 [and i mean "slow" not
                              "sharp"]
                           \_ Well sometimes convenience is required to be able
                              to get the shot at all. You can't always lug
                              around a bunch of camera crap, and fiddling with
                              lenses/settings takes time.
                    \_ also EXCEPT for the D40x and D60.
2008/10/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:51539 Activity:nil
10/15   What. The. Hell.
        http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93R8IE00&show_article=1
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:October:15 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>