Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:July:30 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2008/7/30-8/5 [Recreation/Humor] UID:50727 Activity:low
 7/30   A linux story:
           \_ Cyanide and Happiness?  That comic is rarely funny--more often
              just plain nasty.
              \_ I'm going with stupid. The first one in particular.
                 \_ The eegra one is referencing Ctrl-Alt-Del ... this
                    storyline in particular.
                    \_ Yeah, I know.  It's still dumb.  -!pp
                       \_ Well, I think xkcd is hardly ever funny. Did you
                          really laugh at that linux one? What's the joke,
                          oh look someone got into linux, haha? xkcd has
                          a ton of duds and the "famous" strips are more
                          poignant than funny.
                    \_ Making fun of CAD is like beating up MS sufferers.
                       It's not exactly something to be proud of.
               \_ I think almost all daily comics are rarely funny.
                  The Far Side was funny pretty often. Calvin & Hobbes
                  at least felt "worth reading" if it wasn't funny per
                  \_ Get Fuzzy (though often the funniest bits are not
                     the final punchlines).  Pearls before Swine (hit or
                     miss, but more hit than miss).  Cul De Sac.
                     \_ how often do you actually laugh at those?
                      \_ More of a wry chuckle
                  \_ FoxTrot was generally funny when it was a daily
2008/7/30-8/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:50728 Activity:nil
7/29    Torture is Un-American (or another whacko with BDS)
2008/7/30-8/5 [Science/Electric, Computer/SW/Security] UID:50729 Activity:nil 78%like:50725
7/29    Pepperspray vs. taser, round #1: [] (taser takes down a BULL)
2008/7/30-8/5 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:50730 Activity:nil
7/30    "Neighborhood Walkability Linked to Weight" (
        "People in the study who lived in the most walkable neighborhoods
        weighed an average of 8 pounds less than people who lived in the least
        walkable areas."
        "Neighborhoods built before 1950 tended to have sidewalks and other
        characteristics that made them more accessible to pedestrians, ......
        In general, newer neighborhoods offered fewer opportunities for

        Not all suburbs are the same.
        \_ Yeah, take Saratoga for example - no sidewalks or street lights.
        \_ San Francisco: 2nd skinniest county in America
  (Money Magazine)
           \_ Just in front of Williamson County, Tennessee, well-known as
              a walkable urban center.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:50731 Activity:moderate
7/30    Can I CCW a gun into say, a post office?
        \_ no.
        How about other government buildings?
        \_ no.
           \_ Incorrect.  State or City gov't buildings are covered by CCW.
            \_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station
               or courthouse.  I'll be there with the camera taking pictures
               of your surprise.
              \_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station or
                 courthouse.  I'll be there with the camera taking pictures of
                 your surprise.
                 \_ A CCW covers any local or state building or meeting
                    required to be open to the public.
                 \_ I dunno, cops go into these things all the time and they
                    are all armed. They just take off their side arms when
                    they go through the metal detector. I imagine it would
                    go more or less like that, in fact most cops would probably
                    just think you were undercover or something.
                    \_ right, except they actually have real badges
                       and you have a frigging commoner's CCW permit
                       \_ Of course I've *been* in a courthouse with a CCW
                          while carrying, no problem.  (No metal detector
                          \_ Where? San Diego and most SFBA Courthouses screen
                             with metal detectors.
        What happens when you have to go through the airport and they scan
        you, can you just show them your CCW permit and carry your gun inside
        the building?
        \_ you go to jail.  actually i lied.  they take you to stupid
           person's jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
        \_ you go to jail.  actually i lied.  they take you to dumbass
           jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
        \_ Read the CA law.  The permit is for CA, not for federal property.
           Airports have specific regulations about guns.
        \_ In an airport, a CCW covers you up to the sterile area.  No
           exceptions for firearms beyond that (see CA penal code 171.5(b)(1))
           \_ If you're dumb enough to carry a gun to an airport these days,
              I think you should stay home.
              \_ But I want to be a hero like emarkp and save innocent
                 people from TERRORISTS!!!              -emarkp #1 fan
2008/7/30-8/5 [Uncategorized] UID:50732 Activity:nil
7/30    Any of you know a Plone expert that lives in Portland Oregon?
2008/7/30-8/5 [Uncategorized] UID:50733 Activity:nil
7/30    freakish:
         \_ There are freaks on the Interweb?!?!?!
        \_ I blame Bill Clinton... oops, I mean Barack Obama.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Science/Space] UID:50734 Activity:nil
7/30    The Antikythera "clock" may have been designed by Archimedes: [new scientist]
2008/7/30-8/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50735 Activity:nil
7/30    To destroy Al Qaeda, we must end the war on terror: Rand Corporation
        not really news except to dittoheads but maybe this is progress
        \_ Wow, you're right!  That sure prevented 9/11!
           \_ Please to be pointing out how the current war on terror has
              actually done anything to prevent anyone flying passenger planes
              into buildings. Thicker cockpit doors don't count.
              \_ I already demonstrated how *no* war on terror didn't destroy
                 Al Qaeda.
                 \_ ...splodey brain.
                 \_ It is really a war for hearts and minds, which we have
                    finally started to figure out in Iraq. Bullets are not
                    really that useful in this war, except maybe as the
                    stick that goes with the carrot.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Uncategorized] UID:50736 Activity:nil
7/30    SF banned selling cigarettes in drug stores? WTF?
        \_ LA bans fast food chains, and Saudi Arabia bans cats and dogs,
           completing the trio of totalitarianist bodies.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Finance/Banking] UID:50737 Activity:kinda low
7/30    Financial aid question:
        If a wife applies for financial aid do they consider
        the husband's salary?
        \_ yes
        salary? What if the woman is partially through the program already
        What if the woman is partially through the program already
        when she gets married? Does that affect anything? Would it be in
        \_ Doesn't seem to affect loans, except perhaps the ratio of sub
           vs. unsub loans.  Parental income (or more importantly lack of
           income) can have an effect, even if the student is independent
           of parental support and is married.  And yes, for med school
           you apply for fin aid in March every year.  -sony
        \_ don't you apply for financial aid every year?   when you get
           divorced, you won't be around the next time she applies for
           financial aid
           \_ What do you mean "I won't be around"? I don't remember applying
              for aid every year, by the way. I seem to recall just
              applying up front, but it's been a long time.
        their financial interests to get divorced?
        \_ sounds like a lot of work just to scam the gov. out of a few
           thousand dollars.
           \_ It is probably worth more than just a few. Our marraige tax
           \_ It is probably worth more than just a few. Our marriage tax
              is a few thousand dollars alone. -!op
           \_ 1. It could be tens of thousands.
              2. It's not a scam. If she has no income then she has no income
                 regardless if I make a good salary. The loan is her
                 responsibility to pay back, not mine.
                 \_ I don't think the IRS sees it that way.  Real Accountants
                    please chime in, but if your wife is working, and you
                    are, you are pooling your income to provide food
                    please chime in, but if your wife is not working while
                    in school, and you are working your high salary
                    job, you are pooling your income to provide food
                    shelter savings trips to see the 'rents in the suburbs.
                    i dont think she really has no income.  at the end of
                    the month do you bill your wife for shared expenses
                    like toilet paper and internet?
                 \_ does it work out that way if you're married?  really?
                    i don't think so.  so you're going to kick your
                    poor bankrupt wife out on the street later?  i'm not
                    trying to be annoying, now I, not the op, am curious.
                    \_ You mean you don't itemize your wife?
                 \_ Her debts that she acquires after you are married
                    are community responsibilities. So yes, you have to
                    repay them.
                    \_ I don't believe this to be true. Why would you be
                       responsible if your wife goes wacky and applies for $3M
                       in debt in her name using only her income on the
                       Addendum: The above is true (husband is responsible
                       regardless) in community property states, which are:
                       Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho and
                       Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho,
                       Washington, Texas, Wisconsin and Louisiana.
                       In Alaska, couples can opt in for community property.
                       You can file in community property states to make
                       property Sole and Separate (and back again), but
                       I wonder if you you can do that with debts.
                       \_ Many, many spouses "go wacky" during a divorce
                          and ruin both parties credit out of spite.
                          \_ Sounds like you need to move to a state not
                             on the above list if that happens.
              3. So is the lesson here not to marry a medical student until
                 she's finished school or you'll hose her aid? That could be
2008/7/30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:50738 Activity:nil
7/30    Can I CCW a gun into say, a post office? How about other
        government buildings? What happens when you have to go through
        the airport and they scan you, can you just show them your
        CCW permit and carry your gun inside the building?
        \_ Read the CA law.  The permit is for CA, not for federal property.
           Airports have specific regulations about guns.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:50739 Activity:nil
7/30    SF is about to build a 2 mile subway from Chinatown to
        the ballpark, going UNDER Powell BART.  Powell BART leaks
        like a sieve and BART needs to pump thousands of gallons of water
        out of the station daily.  They actually have trash cans out
        in key parts of the station to collect water.  Somehow I don't think
        the might SF corp of civil engineers have taken into consideration
        all of this crap they are going to have to build their gajillion
        dollar tunnel of shit under.
        \_ I hadn't heard about this.  I assume there will be some easy
           transfer from BART to the new line?  By gondola perhaps?
           \_ Ever use muni?
           \_ they will use HOMOSEXUAL FAIRY MAGIC
           \_ There will be an underground walkway from Union Square Station to
              Montgomery BART.
        \_ All subways leak water.  The NYC subway system would flood within
           hours if electricity went out and the generators failed.  It's
           part of that whole "being 100 feet underground" thing.  But you
           should stay convinced that only you understand that water exists
           and that civil engineers don't know anything about their jobs.
           \_ you know I wouldn't put it past the city of sf to plan
              this 1.7 subway going under some of the densest most expensive
              real estate in the United States Of America, and totally
              fucking it all up and it ends up costing something stupid
              like 11 billion dollars.  also the subway is part of a
              gentrify the toxic waste dump that is Hunters Point and fill
              it with pleasant white relaxed Google engineers who haven't
              done their own laundry in years + gain political points with
              the 40 percent population of sf Chinese people you never hear
              \_ *cough* Big Dig *cough*
              \_ You know I wouldn't put it past you being an idiot.
                 \_ The gajillion dollar subway is part of a plan to gentrify
                    Hunters Point, it is hard to dispute that.  The gajillion
                    dollar subway was planned to butter up the chinese sf
                    \_ If you think civil engineers who work on subway
                       systems don't know tunnels leak water you are dumb.
                       \_ Apparently BATMAN is running SF's computer systems
                          these days.  THE MOLE MAN might run city public works
                    \_ What is wrong with gentrifying Hunter's Point? You would
                       rather see a Superfund site there? And I can't see
                       what is wrong with actually serving your constituency.
                       The Chinatown buses are the most crowded in The City.
                       \_ Don't you know that the chinese aren't real people?
        \_ I wouldn't trust the City of SF to plan the drainage in a desert.
           \- maybe you can align the incentives by having Bechtel design a
              tunnel which goes under the Bechtel Building. BTW, isn't the
              rationale for this to connect 3rd street rail/caltrain to
              downtown without going through surface traffic rather than
              bringing chinese people to the ball park?
              \_ No, when this is all done, there will actually be two
                 tunnels, two blocks apart: one for Muni and one for CalTrain.
                 This seems kind of stupid to me, but I see why they are
                 doing it.
2008/7/30 [Recreation/Dating] UID:50740 Activity:nil
7/30    Texas Presley started growing breasts at 8 and was up to a full
        DD by age 13.  Incredible!
2008/7/30-8/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:50741 Activity:high
7/31    Tell me again how City IS workers are all overpaid:
        \_ There are MANY governments in the US, from Alaska to Tenessee.
           It is like a FREE MARKET for government loving employees. They
           can go to any government branch they want, no one is FORCING them
           to go to SF government. Free market is at force, and therefore
           the pay is justified.
        \_ You do realize this is their pay only through 6/13/08, which
           means half a year's pay? Right? So 8,700 employees have been
           paid at least $50K for half a year's work so far. Incredible.
           (FWIW, there are 28K employees total so 1/3 make > $100K.)
           \_ Where do you get the 28k employees?
              \_ I STFW like you should do.
               \_ City AND county?
                  \_ Same thing in SF:
           \_ you're reading it wrong; look at some of the examples, most
              have "other pay" which is not part of their salary.  The
              salaries are quite low for IT people.
              \_ No, I am not reading it wrong. Some of them do have "other
                 pay". Some do not. "Other pay" is still pay and for most
                 of them it's not that significant (less than 5% of
                 \_ Do you know that they get it every year?  Do you know
                    what's included?  No.  You're looking at a number that's
                    provided without details, and assuming it means what you
                    want it to mean.
                    \_ All you need to know is that:
                       1) Not every salary includes it.
                       2) Of the ones that do, it tends to be a very small
                          amount - so small as to not matter.
                          \_ So, what do you think the base pay should be for
                             the highest-paid IT guy in an organization of
                             10K+ people?  How about the second highest-paid?
                             \_ I dunno. Strawman. We're talking about
                                8700 people, not the top 1 or 2.
                                \_ So?  What do you think the 8700th
                                   best-paid person should make in an
                                   organization you don't even know the
                                   size of?
                                   \_ I do know the size. 28K people. And
                                      you are a waste of time, because you
                                      apparently cannot read (see above
                                      where I stated the size).
           \_ No, I did not realize this, thanks for straigtening me out.
              I was astonished at how underpaid they were, now it looks
              about the same as the private sector, which does seem kind
              of high, given the bennies and job security they get.
              \_ The same as the private sector? Maybe at the high end of
                 the private sector plus they are eligible for overtime. Check
                 out these median SF salaries for comparison:
                 \_ Most are not eligible for overtime, and the SF city
                    numbers posted above are not the median numbers, they're
                    the highest-paid staffers.  The least expensive one on
                    the list is a senior IS business analyst; $100K is a
                    completely reasonable salary for that title.
                    \_ You do realize the list keeps going, right? So it's
                       not just the highest paid. It's everyone. The
                       highest paid person in SF made $264K for 6 months
                       of work. The second highest (a nurse) made $200K
                       including $128K of overtime. Of the 1000 highest paid
                       employees, there were only 4 IS employees. This
                       isn't just about IS. It's about 9000 people making
                       100K per year working for the city. We all know
                       that city employees work harder than anyone and only
                       the best and the brightest work for the city of SF.
                       It's reflected in the quality of the services provided.
                       Why you would defend this bloated piece of shit
                       organization is beyond me. Got a relative working
                       for the city?
                       \_ "In the first half of the 2008 calendar
                           year, the City and County of San Francisco
                           has more than 8,700 employees who have been
                           paid at least $50,000 (through June 13)."
                           You're misunderstanding the data; these are just
                           the 8700 top who've earned more than $50K so far
                           this year.
                           \_ Go to the link, you fuck. You can get the
                              salaries for the entire city. 8700 are just
                              the people who make over $100K.
                              \_ You are wrong, as usual and typically too
                                 arrogant to admit it. Go to the link, pull
                                 the drop down that says "See ALL" and hit
                                 search. How many entries do you see? 8730.
                                 There are far more city employees than that.
                                 \_ Okay, you are correct that the bottom
                                    2/3 are not listed, but what is your point?
                                    What did I misunderstand? Nothing. I stated
                                    in my very first paragraph that it was 1/3
                                    of the city employees who make more than
                                    $100K and in my last sentence above that
                                    "8700 are just the people who make over
                                    $100K". Tell me something I don't know.
                                    \_ The point is you have provided no data
                                       which suggest that SF city employees
                                       are paid over the median or average.
                                       \_ Look at the salaries and the
                                          job titles. Compare to industry.
                                          Rinse. Repeat.
                                          \_ Yeah, I did, and it looks
                                             pretty low.
                                             \_ You are on crack. You think a
                                                nurse making $200K in 6 months
                                                is "pretty low"?
                                                \_ You think a CEO making
                                                   $10 million in 6 months for
                                                   bankrupting his company is
                                                   "pretty low"?  It's all
                                                   \_ No, I don't think that's
                                                      "pretty low".  Regardless,
                                                      nursing wages are well
                                                      understood and $400K
                                                      is a lot for a nurse.
                                                \_ The nurse makes $130k in
                                                   regular salary, as you know.
                                                   \_ Which, as you know,
                                                      is a lie to hide her
                                                      actual salary. Government
                                                      employees use that trick
                                                      a lot - especially
                                                      police and firemen.
                                                      I think her W-2 is
                                                      far more interesting
                                                      than her paper wage.
                                                      \_ Bullshit. You have no
                                                         idea what you are
                                                         talking about.
                                                         \_ Uh huh. Which is
                                                            why the facts
                                                            support me and
                                                            you have none
                                                            to support you.
                              \_ That quote is from the link.  And you still
                                 haven't answered how much you think
                                 the 8700th-highest-paid city worker should
                                 \_ It's a stupid question not deserving
                                    of an answer. The point here is that
                                    the city pays the same as - or higher
                                    than - industry for most jobs, which
                                    is in direct contrast to the "poor
                                    underpaid government employee" schtick
                                    some SOBs on motd believe. The city
                                    pays plenty of its employees higher than
                                    the median salary. Maybe even all of them,
                                    but we can't be sure of that because
                                    we don't know what positions the
                                    bottom 2/3 hold. Why does the city
                                    employ 28K people anyway? Caltax says
                                    that is 1.5x as many per capita as
                                    Santa Clara, San Diego, or LA.
                                    \_ you've provided no data which show
                                       that the median city staffing salary
                                       is higher than the median private
                                       salary for comparable jobs.
                                       \_ I don't have to show that. I
                                          just have to show that 1/3 of
                                          positions in the city pay higher
                                          than the median in order to
                                          prove that city employees can be
                                          paid plenty well and hence are
                                          hardly underpaid as a whole.
                                          \_ If less than 1/3 make more than
                                             the median you need to retake
                                             your statistics classes.
                                          \_ do you even understand what
                                             a median is?  If less than 50%
                                             of city employees are paid
                                             above the median, the class
                                             "city employees" is underpaid.
                                             And the average will be even
                                             lower than the median, because
                                             cities don't have CEOs pulling
                                             down seven figures for running
                                             their companies into bankruptcy.
                                             \_ We can't compute the median
                                                without more data. However,
                                                there's a good bet that most of
                                                the lowest paid workers are
                                                not in job classifications
                                                that matter. My argument
                                                is not "the median city
                                                employee makes more than
                                                the median private sector
                                                employee" (which might still be
                                                true). My argument is that
                                                city workers are often paid
                                                plenty well - at least market
                                                rate if not more.
                                                \_ City workers are often
                                                   paid poorly, well under
                                                   market rate.  Nice impasse,
                                                   eh?  You could resolve it
                                                   by looking at median and
                                                   average earnings, but you
                                                   have no interest in doing
                                                   that.  -tom
                                                   \_ I'll look at them if
                                                      you can find them.
                                                      However, the data we
                                                      do have contradicts
                                                      your statement.
                                                      \_ It does no such thing.
                                                         \_ Sure it does. The
                                                            jobs we can see are
                                                            paid as well as or
                                                            more than comparable
                                                            jobs in industry.
                                                            \_ Which says
                                                               nothing at all
                                                               about the median
                                                               or average, or
                                                               even about
                                                               people with
                                                               experience and
                                                               \_ We don't need
                                                                  median or
                                                                  average to
                                                                  show that
                                                                  they are not
                                                                  "paid poorly".
                                                                  All we need
                                                                  are the
                                                                  which are not
                                    \_ The City is a unified City and County,
                                       so it requires additional staffing. But
                                       I agree that the number of employees
                                       still seems to high.
                                       \_ Not much more staffing, since there
                                          are no other cities in the County
                                          to manage and oversee.
                                          \_ MUNI >> public transit in
                                             LA/Santa Clara/San Diego, per
                                             capita.  -tom
                                             \_ If true then that's SF's
                                                own fault for having such an
                                                expensive infrastructure
                                                given the populace it serves.
                                                \_ SF is providing more
                                                   services, therefore it
                                                   has more staff.  I
                                                   hope you don't view
                                                   Santa Clara as the
                                                   greatest example of
                                                   city services.  -tom
                                                   \_ Why is it providing
                                                      more services than
                                                      it needs to?
                                                      \_ It's not.  -tom
                                                         \_ Apparently it is if
                                                            Santa Clara is
                                                            getting by just
                                                            fine with less.
                                                            \_ You're an idiot.
                                                               I'm done here.
                                                               \_ That's good
                                                                  because you've
                                                                  nothing of
                                                                  value to the
                                                                  except to
                                                                  your steadfast
                                                                  belief that
                                                                  workers are
                                                                  poorly paid
                                                                  even in the
                                                                  face of facts
                                                                  which show 1/3
                                                                  make more
                                                                  than the
                                                                  \_ you're
                                                                     an idiot.
                                                                     \_ Clever
                                                \_ That is what the residents
                                                   want, you know that, right?
                                                   \_ I'm not sure this is
                                                      true. If you give
                                                      the people want they
                                                      want they will spend
                                                      you to a multi-trillion
                                                      dollar deficit. If
                                                      SF is solvent then
                                                      no issues, I guess.
                                                      However, I read SF
                                                      is facing a $250M
                                                      deficit next year.
                                                      true. If you give the
                                                      people what they want
                                                      they will spend you to a
                                                      multi-trillion dollar
                                                      deficit. If SF is solvent
                                                      then no issues, I guess.
                                                      However, I read SF is
                                                      facing a $250M deficit
                                                      next year.
                                I live here and I can _/
                                assure you that this
                                is true. The voters
                                routinely vote for
                                increased taxes for
                                increased services.
                                The widely reported
                                $250M gap is being
                                closed by (gasp!)
                                rainy day funds,
                                which The City put
                                away during better
                                times and by a
                                hiring freeze. And
                                while $250M might
                                sound like a lot,
                                it is less than 4%
                                of the total budget.
                                What is the State of
                                CAs deficit this year?
                                How about Bush's?
                                \_ Actually, I haven't heard that the deficit
                                   was covered. I did read that the Rainy Day
                                   Fund is $122M, so it's not enough by itself.
                                   And then what? Bush is a moron and a red
                                   herring, but sure, other government sucks,
                                   too. I won't argue that.
                                   \_ So the City is doing better than the
                                      the State and the Federal government
                                      in this time of recession. I think we
                                      can agree this is a testament to the
                                      superior quality of SF City government.
                                      Not sure why you think the Federal
                                      deficit is a red herring, aren't we
                                      talking about government fiscal
                                      management here? How many companies
                                      are running in the red right now? Check
                                      out GMs deficit.
                                      \_ If you want to argue that the Feds are
                                         bigger fuckups than SF feel free. I
                                         agree. However, that doesn't exonerate
                           Of course, you realize your argument is directly
                           at odds with your free market advocacy; if
                           the city jobs really are better-paying and easier,
                           they will naturally attract the best people.
                           \_ Markets are not efficient. I don't think
                              most people realize how much money is to be
                              made at the city. That's the point of
                              publicizing the salaries.
                        \_ You don't understand what you are looking at.
                           Those are the highest paid 8700 out of a work
                           force of over 27k. So over 2/3 make less than
                           \_ I understand completely and you are restating
                              what I said. Is English your first language?
                           Your ignorance of SF City services is
                           showing. Don't you live in LA or something?
                           How many times have you even used a SF city service?
                           Most of them work good or even great, like the
                           public parks and libraries.
                           \_ The city couldn't even fire a guy who they
                              thought was a wacko and then he locked them
                              out of their own systems. Sounds like things
                              are going swimmingly.
                              \_ well he's still cooling his heels in jail.
                                 i doubt he'll have a job for much longer.
2008/7/30 [Uncategorized] UID:50742 Activity:nil
7/31    i was helping someone move today and i moved a suitcase and out
        popped an ENORMOUS battery powered dildo.  we're talking big enough
        to name after the Norse pantheon.  jesus christ.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Uncategorized] UID:50743 Activity:nil
7/31    for partha
        \- er was this directed at me because of the part at 2:57?
2022/08/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:July:30 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>