Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:May:09 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2008/5/9 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:49903 Activity:nil
5/8     Larry and Sergey have grown up:
2008/5/9-15 [Uncategorized] UID:49904 Activity:nil
5/8     History Channel-- Spanish conquistadors & Carribean fights, etc.
        The Spaniards rule!!!
        \_ Wait, port Portebello fell to the Bucaneers. Nevermind.
        \_ Wait, port Portebello just fell to the Bucaneers. Nevermind.  -op
        \_ Wasn't The Histroy Channel changed its name to History?
        \_ Didn't The Histroy Channel change its name to History?
2008/5/9-15 [Academia/OtherSchools, Academia/StanfUrd] UID:49905 Activity:high
5/8     UC to raise fees to 18k a year or more:
        A report released in April by the UC faculty Academic Senate says
        the university has not recovered from the budget cuts earlier in the
        decade and that the governor's latest 10 percent cut to its budget
        will be devastating and force the university to rely more heavily on
        student fees and privatization of the university.
        To make up the difference, tuition and fees would have to be
        increased from the current $7,500 a year to about $10,000
        immediately, and to $18,000 in three years to keep the university
        from losing its prominence, the report says.
        \_ Yeah, privatize everything! Hooray!          -Republican
           \_ Hi Strawman Guy.  It should be obvious to anyone with two brain
              cells to rub together that the costs of some services should be
              spread across the population while others should not.  For
              example, vaccinations should be covered and mandatory because
              the cost of a plague in lives, suffering, and many other forms
              of loss outweighs the cost of a $5 shot for every child.  OTOH,
              covering your sex change operation or your breast implants is
              your problem and provides no societal benefit.  Somewhere in
              between those two extremes is a reasonable middle ground that
              people far more intelligent than a cheap shot troll like
              yourself are still trying to find.
              \_ Boob jobs don't provide any societal benefit???
                 \_ No more than your sex change operation.
                    \_ You must not be motd boob guy.
                       \_ Definitely not.  The 5 minutes a day I spend here
                          is already too much.  I don't compound that error
                          by following those sorts of links from here.
           \_ I don't see a very good reason to subsidize UC. Why not subsidize
              all universities? (i.e. subsidize the student, not the school)
              Also, why is there both Cal State and UC?
              \_ The last question, you could answer with only a moment of
                 thought or research.  Community colleges, Cal State and UC
                 have different missions and serve different populations.
                 I think it's safe to say that California gets excellent return
                 on its investment in UC, if you really want to look at it
                 from a pure economic perspective.  -tom
                 \_ If it does, then why not make that relationship explicit
                    in the form of loans?
                    What is the mission difference with CSU and UC? UC is
                    just better? I've good things about Cal Poly grads.
                    \_ read the mission statements, or the state constitution.
              \_ Did you go to Cal?  Please make out that check for 50k you
                 owe the state for your subsidies ASAP, thanks.
                 \_ Did you? I guess Cal isn't so great if it can't teach
                    basic logic. Do you really think that I should agree
                    with something because I supposedly benefitted from it?
                    I pays me taxes like anyone else. That doesn't mean I
                    agree with how it is used.
                    \_ I don't see the logical disconnect.  I bet you,
                       personally, have reaped great rewards from your
                       California taxpayer subsidized UC education.  I
                       have every right to mock you.
                       \_ Again: my personally benefitting or not has zero
                          relevance to the discussion. I would have
                          benefitted under a general subsidy as well, or
                          from loans etc., or from a more competitive
                          private market. Undergrad education is wasteful
                          as all get out. There is little reason to even
                          be at Cal for the first two years. The classes
                          are gigantic and you might near do as well by
                          or better just watching the class on video.
                          are gigantic and you might near do as well or
                          better by just watching classes on video.
                          My first two Cal years were mainly interesting from
                          a life/social perspective
                \_ We actually do both, right? We provide subsidized loans
                   and Pell Grants to any student, but we also provide public
                   schools for those who cannot afford private school, even
                   with a moderate subsidy. I know it goes against the
                   libertarian ethos to provide something of value on the
                   basis of merit, as opposed to the wealth of one's parents,
                   but that is what the People of California have decided to
                   do, and I agree with them.
                   \_ Why not just increase the grant and loan programs?
                      It's not against my ethos to provide something on merit.
                      I am fine with private scholarships and there are lots
                      of those. Communism is against my ethos.
                      \_ If the loan and grants were distributed equally and
                         all the UCs were privatized and charged whatever the
                         market would bear, then poor (and middle class) kids
                         would be shut out of attending the best schools. You
                         could fix this by granting additional State funded
                         scholarships on the basis of merit, but that would be
                         "Communism" again. I hope you can see how society as
                         a whole benefits when the brightest get the best
                         education, as opposed to simply the ones born to the
                         wealthiest parents. But you probably think working for
                         the benefit of the greater good is "Communist" as well.
                         the benefit of the greater good is "Communist" as
                         \_ Scholarships aren't the form of communism/socialism
                            I'm referring to here; I'm looking at government
                            entrance into markets it has no place in. So why
                            have the public schools at all instead of more
                            scholarships? Determining who the brightest are
                            is not clear anyway... I met many dumbasses at Cal.
                            If loans are guaranteed on favorable terms then
                            even the poor can attend the best universities.
                            \_ when did we give the Cato Institute a soda
                               login?  -tom
                               \_ Brit Humes is good looking!!!
                            \_ I see your point and don't really disagree with
                               it. Getting from here to there is kind of hard
                               though. Just because selecting for potential
                               ability is difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't
                               try to do it. People have been doing so at least
                               somewhat successfully since the time of the
        \_ I believe in Turkmenistan the government actively attempted
           to slash education funds in an effort to make the population
           stupider (less unrest when you're stupid).  They have great success!
           Go Turkmen!
        \_ Reagan's dream will finally be realized.
           \_ Star Wars?
        \_ I will say this much. If UC is going to charge the tuition of
           a private school then they'd better match private schools in
           terms of the educational experience. I put up with a lot of
           crap at UC because I realized it was a public school. However,
           if was paying $20K per year my expectations would have been
           completely different.

           if was paying $20K per year my expectations would have been
           completely different.
           \_ Bingo!  All the Stanford folks I know had an infinitely better
              experience and got much more out of it and still do years
              after they graduated.
              \_ Well, they better for (when I was in school) $100K more.
                 However, if UC wants to charge like a private then they
                 need to realize that they can't offer the same product
                 they offer now.
                 \_ UC doesn't *want* to charge like a private.  UC,
                    along with every public service offered by the
                    government, is under assault from corporatist
                    ideologues; thus, its funding has been repeatedly
                    cut while costs have been rising, and it is being
                    forced to raise fees, which, you're right, puts it
                    in a disadvantageous position relative to comparable
                    privates, and which in turn is exactly what the
                    ideologues want.  -tom
                    \_ Wow, been re-reading your Little Red Book a lot
                       recently?  Corporatist ideologues?  Can you name a few
                       of these corporatist ideologues who are out to destroy
                       the public university system in this state?
                    \_ Do you feel it would be in a disadvantageous position
                       relative to comparable privates if it charged the
                       same as the privates? Because the feeling I get is
                       that it would be, which is a knock on UC.
                       \_ How many top private research institutions have
                          over 200,000 undergraduates?  How many campuses
                          have over 30,000?  The problem space is different.
                          \_ Is Cal becoming a factory assembly line of
                             \_ Becoming? I thought that was its purpose.
                          \_ Pick any given campus for your comparison.
                             \_ How about Stanford?  They have something
                                like 8K undergrads.  Their mission is not
                                to educate the top 12.5% of California high
                                school students; if it were, Stanford would
                                be a much different place.  UCLA and
                                Berkeley are #1 and #2 in the country
                                among top universities in enrolling Pell
                                Grant (low-income) students as a percentage
                                of the undergraduate population.  (35% and
                                32%, respectively).  That's part of the
                                charter and mission of UC, and while it makes
                                the environment more challenging to manage,
                                I also think it's part of what makes UC a great
                                institution.  -tom
                                \_ How would you know UC is a great educational
                                   institution?  Did you ever attend a UC
                                   class?  Where is your 4 year degree from?
                                   \_ I see you're out of arguments.  -tom
                                \_ Why is it more "challenging to manage"
                                   low income students? They are still
                                   among the best and brightest.
                                   \_ Dozens of reasons.  They have unusual
                                      schedules and take longer to graduate
                                      because they're working while going to
                                      school, or they have to take time off
                                      to help their family.  They are often
                                      the first person in their family to
                                      go to college, so their family can't
                                      provide them as much advice or support,
                                      and in many cases doesn't value
                                      higher education in the same way that
                                      a fourth-generation Harvard family
                                      does.  There's overhead in dealing
                                      with their patched-together financial
                                      aid package and work-study awards.  -tom
                                      \_ I don't think any of these reasons
                                         have to do with why students at
                                         private schools are treated well
                                         and students at UC are treated like
                                         crap in comparison. Kids at private
                                         schools are likely to receive
                                         financial aid as well from many
                                         sources. Just because some kids are
                                         low income doesn't mean they create
                                         much more overhead. MIT or Stanford
                                         will take the best students they can
                                         get - wealthy or not - and still
                                         provide better experiences for
                                         students because they have to in order
                                         to compete against Caltech and
                                         Princeton for your (or the
                                         government's) dollars, while UC gets
                                         the money (and the students) no matter
                                         what. Sure, UC might compete for some
                                         of the best students but judging
                                         by the scholarships awarded they
                                         don't compete very hard. Overall,
                                         UC seems to feel you need them
                                         more than they need you, which is
                                         not the situation at private
                                         schools where every student is an
                                         extra $30K a year. That's one reason
                                         why privates don't fail people out.
                                         It's like tossing away $30K.
                                         \_ look, it's simple; exceptions are
                                            expensive, and low-income students
                                            generate more exceptions.  For
                                            that matter, there are diseconomies
                                            of scale in managing students when
                                            one class is as large as the
                                            entire enrollment of Stanford.
                                            The student experience of being
                                            in an 800-person Bio 1B class
                                            will not be the same as the
                                            experience of being in a 200-person
                                            class.  The institutions are not
                                            directly comparable because their
                                            missions and resultant environments
                                            are totally different.  -tom
                                            \_ Why not look at a small UC
                                               campus and compare to Stanford?
                                               You may be correct that the
                                               missions are different, but
                                               consider the disincentives
                                               UC has to do any better. As
                                               far as "exceptions" I am
                                               going to guess there are
                                               more made at private
                                               schools. UC is very much a
                                               "no exceptions" environment
                                               whereas at private schools
                                               every single student is
                                               treated like an exception.
                                               \_ I'm willing to bet that by
                                                  any metric you can devise,
                                                  Cal is more diverse than
                                                  \_ *LAUGH* you talk as if
                                                     diversity is a good
                                                     thing that everyone
                                                     loves to have *LAUGH*
                                                     Take a look at Denmark
                                                     and Irvine. Economically
                                                     and socially homogenous
                                                     and nice to live.
                                                     \_ Shut up white man
                                                        \_ Asians tend to stick
                                                           to communities or
                                                           *towns of their kind
                                                  \_ What does that have
                                                     to do with anything?
                                                     Most high-caliber schools
                                                     are actually pretty
                                                     diverse, but are you
                                                     somehow implying that
                                                     diversity == crappy
                                                     staff, and policies
                                                     or that somehow
                                                     having many races of
                                                     people on campus
                                                     therefore makes it
                                                     more expensive to operate
                                                     and makes the environment
                                                     more hostile to
                                                     undergrads? Where are you
                                                     heading with this
                                                     \_ I don't mean ethnic
                                                        diversity (although
                                                        that's clearly also
                                                        true).  I mean that
                                                        Berkeley has more
                                                        students, more students
                                                        who take time off to
                                                        work, more work-study
                                                        students, more
                                                        community college
                                                        transfers than
                                                        Stanford.  All those
                                                        populations are
                                                        more expensive to
                                                        manage.  And 32K
                                                        undergrads are more
                                                        expensive to manage
                                                        than 8K undergrads.
                                                        \_ I'm not convinced
                                                           on your last point.
                                                           Why should that be
                                                           the case?
                                                           \_ Find me an
                                                              institution with
                                                              32K undergrads
                                                              that doesn't
                                                              have a huge
                                                              bureaucracy. -tom
                                                              \_ Just compare
                                                                 UCB and USC.
                                                                 It's not
                                                                 like USC
                                                                 doesn't have
                                                                 but the
                                                                 experience is
                                                                 much, much
                                                                 better. You
                                                                 believe what
                                                                 you believe
                                                                 because you've
                                                                 worked at UCB
                                                                 so long and
                                                                 into the
                                                                 "that's the
                                                                 way it has to
                                                                 be" mentality.
                                                                 It doesn't.
                                                                 UC sucks
                                                                 even compared
                                                                 to some other
                                                                 large schools
                                                                 like Texas
                                                                 and UVA.
                                                                 \_ USC is half
                                                                    the size of
                                                                    and less
                                                                    than 10%
                                                                    of the size
                                                                    of UC. -tom
                                                                    \_ USC is
                                                                       the same
                                                                       size but
                                                                       has more
                                                                       is one
                                                                       reason it
                                                                       makes for
                                                    USC has 15K undergrads, _/
                                                    less than half of Cal. -tom
                                                  And small UC campuses don't
                                                  compete with Stanford.  I
                                                  know a lot of people who
                                                  were quite happy at Santa
                                                  Cruz, but it's not a top
                                                  research university.  -tom
                                                  \_ UC is UC. My gf went
                                                     to UCSC and it's the
                                                     same crap everywhere.
                                                     Also don't tell the UCSC
                                                     PhDs in programs like
                                                     astrophysics and
                                                     linguistics (both Top
                                                     10 in the nation) that
                                                     it's not a "top research
                                                     university". You know as
                                                     much about UCSC as you do
                                                     about everything else
                                                     that's not related to
                                                     "UCSC astrophysicists, for
                                                     example, were recently
                                                     ranked first in a survey
                                                     measuring the impact of
                                                     research on the field."
                                                     UCSC is a top research
                                                     university and at the same
                                                     time schools like Harvey
                                                     Mudd are not, but we're
                                                     not talking about
                                                     research. We're discussing
                                                     undergrad education. UC is
                                                     great for the price, but
                                                     if the price becomes $20K
                                                     I'm sending my kids
                                                     somewhere else.
                                                     \_ UCSC has *one*
                                                        department which is
                                                        a top research
                                                        department, and that's
                                                        because they made the
                                                        guys who used to live
                                                        up at Lick Observatory
                                                        come down to teach
                                                        at UCSC.  There is no
                                                        comparison between
                                                        the research done at
                                                        UCSC and Berkeley,
                                                        UCLA, Stanford, or any
                                                        of the other top
                                                        research institutions.
                                                        UCSC's purpose isn't
                                                        to be a top research
                                                        institution.  There's
                                                        really no point
                                                        in continuing this
                                                        conversation if you
                                                        don't understand that.
                                                        \_ *THREE* top 25
                                                           departments and
                                                           more that are
                                                           still good. They
                                                           just got money
                                                           for a stem cell
                                                           research center.
                                                           They do a lot of
                                                           world-class research
                                                           in biology and
                                                           ecology. UCSC, by
                                                           virtue of offering
                                                           PhD programs at all,
                                                           is engaged in
                                                           Your arguments don't
                                                           hold water. Every UC
                                                           is engaged in
                                                           world-class research,
                                                           not just UCB and
                                                           UCLA. I'm not
                                                           sure why this
                                                           matters anyway
                                                           when discussing
                                                           Your point seems to
                                                           be that UC ignores
                                                           ugrads in favor of
                                                           research, which is
                                                           exactly my beef with
                                                           \_ My point is that
                                                              UCSC and Stanford
                                                              are not
                                                              any more than
                                                              Berkeley and
                                                              De Vry are.
                                                              They are not
                                                              competeing for
                                                              the same students
                                                              or the same
                                                              faculty.   -tom
                                                              \_ My point
                                                                 is that
                                                                 UCSC still
                                                                 sucks for
                                                                 even though
                                                                 it's not
                                                                 "large and
                                                                 because it's
                                                                 still UC.
                                                                 \_ prove it.
                                                                    \_ let's
                                                                    \_ Did
                                        Yes, but that proves nothing. -tom _/
        \__ Does Cal or UCLA make money from enrolling out-of-state and
            international students?  If so, maybe that's one way to help the
            financial situation.  (I think it doesn't get government subsidy
            for those students.)
            \_ no.
            \_ No, but they charge them a hell of a lot more.
            \_ They money all goes to the UC Regents.  Did you ever pay your
               own fees?
               \_ Yes, I wrote lots of checks payable to UC Regents.  But I
                  thought that was just for accounting purpose.  -- PP
2008/5/9 [Uncategorized] UID:49906 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2008/5/9 [Uncategorized] UID:49907 Activity:nil
5/8     Who decided it was "death to 'r's day"?
2008/5/9 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:49908 Activity:nil 57%like:49901 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Science/Space] UID:49909 Activity:nil 80%like:49902 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Transportation/Bicycle, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:49910 Activity:nil 76%like:49899 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:49911 Activity:nil 80%like:49897 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:49912 Activity:nil 53%like:49895 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:49913 Activity:nil 75%like:49894 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Recreation/Humor] UID:49914 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Industry/Startup] UID:49915 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Reference/Law/Court] UID:49916 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation] UID:49917 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:49918 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Reference/BayArea] UID:49919 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Uncategorized] UID:49920 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/5/9 [Uncategorized] UID:49921 Activity:nil 61%like:49888 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2008/5/9-15 [Health/Women] UID:49922 Activity:low
5/9     Discovery Channel holding contest to name new Duggar baby.
        "Michelle Duggar, female head of the Dugger household, has been
        pregnant for 135 months of her life."
        \_ I guess at least taxpayers are not footing the bill for raising
           their children.
           \_ They might be.  The father avoids the question of how he
              makes enough money to support all of his children.
              \_ Damn.  Mandatory castration is in order.
              \_ How dare he keep personal details private!  Where's Stalin
                 when you need him?!
        \_ Guiness World of Record baby!
                 \_ I think motd castration guy is commenting on the fact
                    the dude has 20 kids, not that he won't release his tax
        \_ Guinness World of Record baby!
2008/5/9 [Uncategorized] UID:49923 Activity:moderate
5/9     New Winter pics found:
        \_ Jesus christ.
2008/5/9-15 [Uncategorized] UID:49924 Activity:nil
5/9     MOTD cleansed.  - r liberation front.
2008/5/9-15 [Computer/SW/OS/VM] UID:49925 Activity:nil
5/9     Do any sodalites work at VMWare? If so, please contact me as
        I have a question about scaling to ask you. -ausman
        \_ Tell us how scaling will affect the housing market!
2008/5/9-15 [Recreation/Dating, Reference/Religion] UID:49926 Activity:nil
5/9     god i love burritos
        \_ AND?
2022/06/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:May:09 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>