3/18 Full text of Obama's "pastor" speech. Whatever else you might think,
this is moving stuff. I guess you can either choose to believe it
or not.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/full_text_of_obamas_big_race_s.php#more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU
\_ Not only do I not think it's moving, I think it's a cynical
side-step.
\_ That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, I think
the bulk of people who would consider voting for Obama at all
will consider it brave, principled, and devout. He may be doomed
by the Idiocracy that only thinks in 5 second sound bites,
but he probably would never win with these folks anyway. Whether
they may make up 50% + 1 of the electorate remains to be seen.
\_ My original response to you was nuked. On the assumption that
it wasn't you that nuked it, let me ask, in what way did you find
it cynical, exactly?
\_ He will make a great President. My father still talks about JFK
and how much me moved a generation, we are going to finally see
and how much he moved a generation, we are going to finally see
something similar: a man of great charima, passion and intergrity
something similar: a man of great charima, passion and integrity
who is going to move America in a new and better direction.
\_ But... but... he's black! You know that those people are
all lazy shifty criminals who hate the white people and want
payback! My god, HE HATES AMERICA! AND SO DO YOU!
\_ I just got back from a two-week vacation in Australia. Every
conversation longer than five minutes that I had with Aussies
turned to the US Dem Primaries. There's a lot of hope/interest
in Obama, even abroad. --erikred
\_ Fortunately the rest of the world does not vote for our
leaders.
\_ Your statement is difficult to unpack. Are you suggesting
that it is fortunate that the rest of the world does not
vote for our leaders, that it is fortunate that the rest
of the world has no say in the choosing of our leaders, or
that despite his popularity abroad, Americans are unlikely
to elect Obama?
\_ All three. I don't see a difference between A&B which
is what I meant when I posted, but C is also true, but
not because he is or is not popular with the rest of
the world. Americans as a whole don't vote on that
basis. The reason it is fortunate that non-citizens
do not vote is they would obviously vote for someone
best for their own country, not ours. I think it goes
without saying (although I'm saying it :)) that an
elected official in any office should represent the
interests of the voters/citizens, not random people
from some other country who have their own government
and election system.
\_ *shrug* I don't see how my initial statement that
there's a lot of hope/interest in Obama, even
abroad, led to your statement. Perhaps I'm just
still jetlagged. --erikred
\_ We'll try again later.
\_ After six years of Freedom Fries and calling our
allies names, our reputation abroad could use
some improvement.
\_ You're confused.
\_ What do you imagine that I might be confused
about? Do you think that our reputation abroad
has gone up under The Decider? Do you think
that our declining reputation is a good
thing?
\_ Historically JFK seems to have been a pretty poor president.
See "A Legacy of Ashes."
\_ I agree. Ronald Reagan is our hero.
\_ Not sure I agree entirely, since he only had 3 years in which
to work before he was shot. He did inspire a generation to
service and to get to the Moon. He did well in the Cuban
Missile Crisis, the closest we ever came to full on nuclear
war with Russia (imagine if LBJ had been prez for that).
Then again, he did get us further into Vietnam. Hard to
say.
s
\_ And he made it ok to go outside without a hat. That alone
is worth being a hero.
\_ It would be nice if people wore more hats. It's
also good for us guys with thinning hair.
\_ So you think that last year would've been pivotal? Or are
you saying it takes 2 full terms to matter?
\_ I'm just not sure. I don't think there is a hard and
fast rule. As an enduring postive symbol of America, I
think there's no question that he's had impact, just as
Reagan did and continues to do so - though Reagan's
second term wasn't exactly littered with great
accomplishments. I think to put him in the same
category as say, Garfield or Harding, is a mistake.
I don't think we can say for sure what he would have
gone on to accomplish, but I think it's fair to say
that the '60s would have been quite different without
the trauma of his assassination. Talk to boomers about
it - for a lot of them, it defined their lives.
\_ re: boomers. Absolutely. I 100% agree. OTOH, I
don't care that all those people remember where they
were and what color their socks were when they heard
he got shot. As a realist I only care what he (or
anyone else) did or did not accomplish. I'm not sure
I agree the 60s would have been any different though
if he had lived. The US would still have been hip
deep in Vietnam. The hippies would have hipped.
Free love would have been just as not-quite free.
Am I missing something?
\_ The Civil Rights Act.
\_ Uhm no. That was grass roots. Without the
marches, the water cannons, dogs, shootings,
lynchings and millions of Americans saying
"No!" the CRA would never have happened.
\_ Uhm no. You can perhaps argue that it would
have been signed sooner or later, but the
Montgomery bus boycott started 10 years
earlier. It took great political courage to
push through the CRA.
\_ People dying on the streets made it
happen, not some paper pushers in DC.
It took no courage to pass something
most of the country was in favor of
given what was going on in the south.
Politicians are by their very nature
not courageous creatures.
\_ What makes you think that a majority
of the country was in favor of it?
As LBJ said, it gave the South to
the GOP for at least a generation.
\_ Replace all references to Reverend Wright in that speech with
David Duke and you might get a feel for why I'm not that impressed.
\_ So you think the two are the same? Really? Are you insane?
\_ One's a white guy who hates black people, and the other is
a black guy who hates white people. What's the difference?
Enlighten me.
\_ The United Church of Christ doesn't burn crosses on
people's lawns.
\_ Uh, please show me where he hates white people. Seriously.
I've seen the videos. I don't see him shouting how
WHITEY MUST DIE.
\_ Which videos? I have yet to see a url that points me
to these videos.
\_ In other words, you're comparing David Duke, former
Grand Dragon of the KKK, an organization publically
and vocally dedicated to racism, to Rev. Wright, a
man whose views you only know through reports in
Right Wing Media? Dude, more research, please, before
opening mouth.
\_ Different person, moron.
\_ Wow, if only you'd signed your post, AC.
\_ It's pretty obviously a different person.
Sheesh. I signed as well as you did.
\_ 1) This obvious you speak of is not so
obvious.
2) I'm not the one who complained about
being mistaken for someone else. If
you really want to be differentiated,
sign your posts.
\_ I suppose it's only obvious if you
have an IQ over 12. I'll spell it
out for you. If you're discussing an
article/video, and post comes along
from someone who doesn't even know
there IS a video, it's probably not
from the same guy.
\_ And David Duke claims to not be racist, but that he is
"a racial realist defending human rights." So what?
I admit, I don't have a 'smoking gun' statement, I'm
just infering from his attitude and general distain for
'Amerikkka' and 'middleclassness.' (acting like whitey)
At the very least we know he is a conspiracy nut.
\_ Please document. Seriously. Because I have a
feeling your ass is getting very empty right now.
\_ You said you saw the videos. Perhaps they weren't
the same videos? You could also read the
church website, but it's been purged recently.
link:csua.org/u/l2c (church pdf) Or you could
read Obama's first book, "Dreams From My Father."
Perhaps you should not be insulting other's
research. I've obviously done more than you.
\_ Yup, it's totally empty.
\_ Keep deleting this if you want, but it
is still obvious your ass well is running dry.
\_ Are you kidding? I love it when people ask
for evidence, and when you give it to them,
they say "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALA!"
I admit, you win, I laughed first.
\_ There is no way any of the things you
are talking about come anyway close to
David Duke. In any way shape or form.
I'm sorry but this whole thing should
be a total non-story.
\_ I've heard some of his sermons on the
radio. There is no way that a) any
reasonable person can consider what he
said anything but racist and hateful
or b) that someone who knew the guy
for 20 years, called him mentor,
attended his church for 20 years and
had him as a campaign advisor has no
clue what the guy has been saying and
doesn't agree with at least some of
it. --someone else
\_ So I am supposed to take the word
of some anonymous motd hozer, in
the abscence of any evidence what-
soever? I am curious, are you one
of the guys who thought invading
Iraq was a good idea, too? If these
sermons are so racist, find the
text of one on the Net and share
it and let me decide for myself.
Your judgement is suspect to me.
\_ It took me 10 seconds to find
a pile of links. It took 10
more to find links from a
sufficiently left wing source
that you might accept them:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4443230
I can't play the video but it
should be the live speech. If
not, you can easily find the
video or audio elsewhere. Have
a good evening.
\_ I looked at both of those
and watched the video. Which
quote exactly is the problem?
You had no idea what you were
talking about before and now
you can't find shit.
\_ Ok, now you're just
trolling. No reasonaable
human being can call that
anything but hateful.
\_ Were P Robertson and J
Falwell's musings on
"God removing his
protection on 9/11"
more or less "hateful"
in your beady little
mind?
\_ Which?
\_ It is about as "hateful"
as your average Rush
Limbaugh show or rant
from Ann Coulter, which
is to say, yes. Not
racist though, at least
it doesn't seem so to me.
is to say, yes somewhat.
Not racist though, at
least it doesn't seem
seem to me, a white guy.
so to me, a white guy.
\_ If Ann and Rush were
Obama's advisors and
friends of 20 years
they wouldn't get a
pass like Wright.
\_ Which is why
Ann can talk at
the RNC and call
Edwards a fagot
and the media
barely pays any
attention to
the story? Why
McCain can suck
up to a preacher
who calls the
Catholic church
Satanists and he
gets a pass? Why
Pat Roberston can
blame 9/11 on gays
and feminists and
still be sucked up
to by the
republican
machine? This is
whole thing is
bullshit. Obama
didn't say these
things but he
takes the hit.
Meanwhile major
rep. powers spew
tons more hate
regularly and
noone blinks.
How is being the subject of intense media _/
scrutiny and being the number one story in
newspapers all over the country qualify
as "getting a pass"? |