Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:January:28 Monday <Tuesday>
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2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:49019 Activity:nil
1/15    Dear French experts, can you please point me to a website (like
        babelfish) that'll help me pronunciate French words? For example
        I have no idea how to pronunciate "Bichon a poil Frisť".
2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic] UID:49020 Activity:nil
1/28    Humans Force Earth into New Geologic Epoch - Yahoo! News:
        http://www.csua.org/u/kld
2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49021 Activity:kinda low
1/28    do you think Obama will get sunk by supporting drivers
        licenses for illegal immigrants?
                 \- obama now supported by most famous sunk and drunk driver
                    in the country.
        \_ motd push polling: good or great?
           \_ I wonder. I mean, people who care about that issue (like me) may
              be more concerned about his other policies. The only D candidate
              who didn't openly support that was Dodd, IIRC. -emarkp
              \_ How much of your caring for this issue is wrapped up in the
                 larger question of illegal immigration in general?
2008/1/28-2/2 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:49022 Activity:nil
1/28    Quick regex Q: Say I have a line of data, and inside that line I
        have some parts between two symbols:
        This is a line ~of data~ where ~the tildes are my symbols~
        How do I sed this line to get rid of the tildes and anything
        between each pair of tildes? The end result should be:
        This is a line where
        \_ 's/~[^~]*~//g'
           To handle the whitespace the way you request would be trickier
           and would require more knowledge of just how you're using these
           tags.
           \_ Thank you. I'll work with this for now.
           \_ I'm not sure I understand how your regex works.  Wouldn't
              's/~.*?~//g' do the job handling whitespaces as well? - ! op/pp
              \_ nvm.  Just understood what you meant about whitespaces. -pp
2008/1/28-2/2 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:49023 Activity:nil
1/28    When I run Thunderbird to use my soda mail, I can read mail but I can't
        send.  It gives an error "Sending of message failed.  The message
        could not be sent because connecting to SMTP server
        <DEAD>mead.CSUA.Berkeley.edu<DEAD> failed. ......"  Is there some special setup
        that I need to configure in order to send mail?  Thanks.
        \_ Just use your ISP's SMTP server to send mail. Soda probably
           only allows sending from berkeley domains.
2008/1/28-2/2 [Uncategorized] UID:49024 Activity:nil
1/28    What's the difference between co-op, internship and externship?  Thx.
        \_ externship?
2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion] UID:49025 Activity:nil
1/28    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22885424
        State printed license plate to contain pro-life messages.
        \_ Gov't not abridging the freedom of speech
           "The Arizona License Plate Commission allows nonprofit groups to
           highlight their cause on license plates, but the commission in 2002
           and 2003 denied the Arizona Life Coalition permission for a
           specialty plate with the "Choose Life" slogan."
           \_ Clearly we need a Flying Spaghetti Monster license plate.
              \_ I saw this on a car two days ago:
                 http://www.rof.com/product_p/2290-pq.htm
        \_ The liberal 9th circuit strikes again.
2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49026 Activity:nil
1/28    The Iraq War has become Bush's pet project.
        \_ And like most children, he lacks the mental cohesion and maturity
           to understand the responsibility of having a pet, and it's doomed
           to die a horrible death from neglect.
           \_ Why did you have to feed the trolls?  He didn't even bother to
              post a url.
              \_ Sorry, feeding the what now?
2008/1/28-2/2 [Reference/Tax] UID:49027 Activity:very high
1/28    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22878539
        Bush vows to veto any tax hike. How does tax raise/status-quo
        affect me directly as a poor graduate student?
        \_ It doesn't. Eventually it gets paid for somehow regardless of
           nominal taxes. Too bad Bush doesn't veto spending hikes.
        \_ When you get a real job and watch half your pay check go to other
           people, you'll care.  Until then, no, taxes raises and hikes don't
           mean anything to people who don't pay them.
           \_ dimwit you are so full of shit.
              \_ I didn't write the above. --dim
           \_ Half?  That's a fairly ridiculous exaggeration. -dans
              \_ Not really. Property tax, sales tax, income tax (state
                 and federal), cap gains, SDI, FICA. I take home about
                 50% and that's not counting what my employer pays for me
                 (which may as well be in my pocket as far as my employer
                 is concerned).
                 \_ If you make 100K per year you'll pay about 20% in income
                    taxes.  Your short term capital gains tax rate is equal to
                    your income tax rate, your long term is less.  There is
                    now way in hell what your combined state income tax (a
                    no way in hell what your combined state income tax (a
                    couple points, worst case), sales tax, SDI, and FICA would
                    be 30% of your income.  Is property tax really that
                    outrageous?  Do you have some ridiculous AMT tax burden?
                    -dans
                    \_ Dude, you are totally out of it. Statements like
                       "There is now (sic) way in hell your [...] tax
                        would be 30% of your income" prove it.
                 \_ You say that you "take home about 50%." Does that include
                    your 401k contribution? I calculated my total overall
                    payroll and income rate last year and it was about 1/3 and
                    I am subject to AMT. At the highest possible rate, your
                    overall tax rate is 35% Federal + 10.3% state + 1.5% SDI,
                    which comes out to 46.8%. Close but no cigar. Are you
                    self-employed? If so, your tax rate might be higher.
                    \_ You totally neglected FICA, property tax, sales taxes,
                       use taxes, and "fees" like VLF.
                    \_ You totally neglected FICA, property tax, sales tax,
                       use taxes, and fees like VLF. You also ignored the
                       7.65% my employer is paying for me.
                       \_ Hell yeah, fuck all those taxes. Support FairTax.
                       \_ So now you are including taxes that other people
                          are paying? Yeah, if you include enough of those, I
                          am sure you can "prove" that your tax rate is over
                          100%! I not not include FICA, because it is eliminated
                          for income over $97.5k. The overall maximum rate is
                          only for those making over $1M. The rate for the $95k
                          guy is much less. Property tax, etc are not taken
                          out of your paycheck, so they do not effect your
                          "take home" pay, right?
                          \_ Yes, I include taxes other people are paying
                             for my benefit. My employer could give that
                             money to me and it wouldn't matter one whit
                             to them. Or, we could split it 50/50. The
                             fact that FICA has a cap doesn't matter. You
                             can't ignore it. Also, I consider "take home"
                             to be the amount I get to keep each year, not
                             the amount of my paycheck. I can take 59
                             deductions and get a huge paycheck, but I
                             don't get to keep any of that.
                             \_ You aren't listening very well to what I am
                                saying. Here are the calculations for a
                                $97.5k income with zero deductions (not very
                                likely, but an extreme case):
                                Income - $97.5
                                Fed income tax - 21411
                                State income tax - 6873
                                FICA - 7459
                                SDI - 693
                                That comes out to a 37.3% overall tax rate,
                                which is much lower than the theoretical
                                maximum. I calculated this from the tax tables,
                                btw. Why stop at FICA, if you are going to
                                start including your employers taxes? Why not
                                add corporate income tax as well? If he made
                                more money, he could pay you more, right?
                                [As an aside, I realized that zero deductions
                                 makes no sense, since this guy would at the
                                 very least be able to deduct his state taxes
                                 from his federal taxable income. Doing that
                                 lowers his federal income tax by 1924 and his
                                 overall tax burden to 35.3%]
                                \_ State income tax as stated by you = $6873.
                                   The standard deduction is $5350 for a
                                   single filer. The difference is not 2%
                                   in tax burden.
                                   \_ What do you think "zero deductions" means?
                                      Not everyone gets the standard deduction.
                                \_ The payroll taxes are not at all
                                   similar to corporate income tax, but
                                   feel free to include them if you wish
                                   since we get taxed twice on that income.
                                   \_ Don't forge to include the income tax
                                      that the gas station owner pays on his
                                      employees, since if he didn't have to
                                      pay that tax, he could give you cheaper
                                      gasoline.
                                      \_ Huh?
                                \_ Sales taxes can easily bring you over 40%.
                                   And property taxes should count, why not?
                                   If you live somewhere it's an expense that
                                   comes out of your paycheck in the end. - !op
                                   \_ My god. You're so dense it's not
                                      even worth reading your shit
                                      anymore                   !op !pp
                                      \_ :( awww. I guess you win.
                                   \_ We were discussing paycheck deductions.
                                      \_ No, only you were.
                                      Yes, I am sure that your overall tax
                                      burden can exceed 40%, since mine did
                                      one year, when I sold a bunch of stock
                                      and got bit by AMT and I didn't have
                                      any deductions. I don't think it is
                                      realistic to get to 50% and I would
                                      be amused to see your scenrio as to
                                      how it could be possible.
                                      \_ I think we are actually discussing
                                         overall tax burden. You are trying
                                         to stick with the literal paycheck
                                         but that's kind of dumb since the op
                                         clarified this already.
                                         I don't know if you can break 50%, but
                                         I guess I wouldn't be surprised if you
                                         could. What state has the highest
                                         income, property, and sales taxes?
                                         How much do corporate taxes affect
                                         people's tax burden, reflected in
                                         prices? How much might luxury taxes,
                                         gaz guzzler taxes, or other special
                                         purpose taxes affect someone?
                                         \_ What does "I take home 50%" mean
                                            to you? Like I said, I would be
                                            amused. Pull out your calculator
                                            and show us how it could happen.
                                            \_ To me, it means "take home
                                               at the end of the year".
                                               Like I said, I can play
                                               with deductions all over
                                               the place to affect my
                                               actual paycheck.
                                               \_ That's right, you have
                                                  deductions, so you don't pay
                                                  as much taxes as you would
                                                  otherwise. This is what
                                                  everyone does, which is why
                                                  the 50% line is BS.
                                                  the 50% line is unrealistic.
                                                  \_ I think he means you can
                                                     claim deductions for your
                                                     paycheck that are bogus.
                                                     What matters is what you
                                                     ended up actually giving
                                                     the govt after tax year.
                                               \_ That is not what take home pay
                                                  means to a normal person.
                                                  http://www.csua.org/u/kmh
                                                  \_ Your definition is
                                                     what I said and
                                                     includes even more
                                                     not related to taxes.
                                            \_ I earn $97000. I go over the Bay
                                               Bridge 9000 times and pay the
                                               toll. Done.
                                               Or if we include property tax
                                               all you need is a high value to
                                               income ratio.
                                               Whatever, I too would be amused
                                               but I'm not gonna do the work.
                                               \_ Amusing. It would actually
                                                  take 19700 times.
                                               \_ Amusing.
                                                  \_ I would bet there are real
                                                     people paying >50% overall
                                                     tax due to property taxes.
                                                     \_ Not very many of them,
                                                        which you would find out
                                                        very quickly if you did
                                                        the actual math. Most
                                                        people paying lots of
                                                        property tax have big
                                                        mortgages, and therefore
                                                        big deductions.
                                                        \_
                                                        1. Most people
                                                        paying lots of
                                                        property tax own
                                                        the property and
                                                        have no deduction.
                                                        2. The deduction
                                                        is capped at $1M
                                                        in debt anyway.
                                                        \_ Prove or demonstrate
                                                           evidence that 1 is
                                                           true.
                                                           \_ I am not sure if
                                                              it is and I
                                                              retract that.
                                                              My original
                                                              statement was
                                                              overwritten and
                                                              what I said
                                                              (which is true)
                                                              is that people
                                                              with expensive
                                                              homes tend
                                                              to make large
                                                              downpayments
                                                              (>50%) and
                                                              have smaller
                                                              deductions
                                                              in proportion
                                                              to property
                                                              tax than you
                                                              might think.
                    \_ Oh noes!  Even if you were right and it was *only* 46.8%
                       do you *really* think the gvt taking *almost& half your
                       income is somehow ok?  *shakes head*  Or are you just
                       living down to the anal retentive engineer stereotype?
                       \_ I'm not the op and I just want to say your
                          reaction and response make you seem as mature
                          as dans. You're acting like a complete moron
                          which doesn't help in supporting your case.
                          \_ My case is very simple: 46.8% isn't a whole lot
                             different than 50% when you're talking about my
                             take home vs. the gvt's take away.  If you can't
                             see that please return your diploma.  Thanks.
                       \_ No one actually pays that rate, that is just the
                          theoretical maximum. I would be perfectly happy with
                          that tax rate if some decent government services
                          came with it. The guy who is claiming that the
                          guberment takes half of his paycheck is simply
                          lying.
                          \_ Why do you say I am lying? We just proved we
                             could already be at 45% without even considering
                             all taxes paid like FICA plus, e.g., gasoline tax,
                             hotel tax, airport tax, etc.. Hell, property tax
                             can be another massive chunk, especially if you
                             own properties outside of CA like I do which I am
                             not renting out at the moment but yet still
                             pay taxes on. I am glad you are in a tax bracket
                             where you keep 80% of your income, but wake up.
                             \_ keep it up loser, you're just whining now
                                because you don't like to lose arguments.
                                \_ You have a weird definition of "lose".
                             \_ 45% is for a guy making $1M+ with no
                                deductions. FICA is an insignificant proportion
                                of that kind of income. $1M+ guy probably
                                doesn't spend it all, he probably invests
                                most of it. My overall tax burden is about
                                1/3 btw. I don't trust you to be able to
                                calculate your own, after what I have heard
                                you claim so far, sorry.
                                \_ It doesn't take $1M of income to spend 45%
                                   of your income in taxes.
                                \_ I see my pay check.  By the time the gvt
                                   is done taxing me I lose roughly half my
                                   pay check.  Is it 46%?  54%?  I'd say it
                                   doesn't matter and this whole thread
                                   between you two has gotten bogged down in
                                   hair splitting details.  If the number was
                                   33% (calculated any way you like), then I'm
                                   working for the gvt for the first 4 months
                                   of every year, not my family.  I don't start
                                   to earn anything for me until May 1st.  You
                                   think that's ok?  Anyway, the original point
                                   remains.  The grad student op has no reason
                                   to care until they get their first real pay
                                   check and see how much the gvt takes from
                                   it.
                                   \_ Do me a favor then. Take out your latest
                                      paycheck, add up all the taxes and then
                                      divide that into your gross pay and tell
                                      us for real what your actual tax rate
                                      on your income is. I will be waiting.
                                      \_ You're a moron. Withholdings are
                                         just withholdings.
                                         \_ Just answer the question, if the
                                            math isn't too much for you.
                                            math isn't too much for you. You can
                                            go back and get your 1040 out from
                                            last year if you want to give a
                                            more accurate answer.
                                   \_ The concept of "working for the
                                      government, not my family" is an
                                      ideological canard.  Your taxes are
                                      supporting your family; the school
                                      system, the infrastructure you use,
                                      the police and fire departments,
                                      and the military.  I'm sure this will
                                      start you off on a rant about how
                                      the roads have potholes and the schools
                                      aren't good enough.  So tell me; what
                                      is the right amount of taxation, if
                                      the current amount is too much?
                                      (For extra credit: attempt to prove
                                      that we're past the midpoint of the
                                      Laffer Curve).  -tom
                                      \_ I don't see the relevance of the
                                         Laffer Curve to this discussion.
                                         Maximizing government revenue is
                                         not a goal.
                                      \_ Why not give 100% to the government
                                         and let the government provide then?
                                         \_ I notice that instead of answering
                                            the question, you set up a straw
                                            man.
                                            There are some services that
                                            the government is better able
                                            to provide than private industry:
                                            infrastructure and security, for
                                            two obvious ones.  There are other
                                            services where the societal ROI
                                            is so obvious that it makes no
                                            sense to leave it to private
                                            industry: health care and
                                            childhood education, for two.
                                            With the exception of the military,
                                            the US and California are
                                            insufficiently funded in all
                                            those areas, which is why our
                                            infrastructure, health care,
                                            and childhood education are all
                                            quite bad compared to other
                                            industrialized countries; and
                                            by extension, why our pollution,
                                            crime rates, and life expectancy
                                            compare disfavorably.
                                            I am pretty certain that lowering
                                            taxes does not improve any of
                                            those areas.  -tom
                                            \_ Prove that gov't is better able.
                                               \_ Please.  Do you really think
                                                  a private entity could
                                                  have built the interstate
                                                  system?  Do you see private
                                                  entities lining up to put
                                                  in the SF-LA bullet train?
                                                  Are there *any* real-world
                                                  examples of private entities
                                                  providing comprehensive
                                                  infrastructure or security?
                                                    -tom
                                                \_ You went beyond massive
                                                   projects and mentioned
                                                   childhood education (why
                                                   stop there btw?) and health
                                                   care. And maybe that SF-LA
                                                   bullet train doesn't make
                                                   economic sense. Maybe the
                                                   interstate system should
                                                   have been a better rail
                                                   system. How are you so
                                                   certain that everything gov
                                                   does is great? Anyway,
                                                   it's pretty obvious that
                                                   some things are just way too
                                                   huge for there to be any
                                                   realistic competition and
                                                   that is where government
                                                   makes sense. Education and
                                                   health care are entirely
                                                   non-obvious however.
                                                   \_ I didn't say the
                                                      government inherently
                                                      does health care and
                                                      education better;
                                                      I said that the societal
                                                      ROI (for universal
                                                      childhood education and
                                                      universal health care)
                                                      are obvious.  -tom
                                                      \_ You also said it makes
                                                         no sense to leave it
                                                         to private industry.
                                                         Ok, I misinterpreted
                                                         your point. I'm just
                                                         debating here part
                                                         time so I'm a bit
                                                         distracted.
                                                      \_ If the government
                                                         doesn't do it
                                                         better then they
                                                         shouldn't do it.
                                                         \_ The government
                                                            *has* to do it
                                                            (provide universal
                                                            health care and
                                                            child education)
                                                            because private
                                                            industry won't.
                                                            Private industry
                                                            loves to cherry-
                                                            pick the easy
                                                            problems and
                                                            claim they solve
                                                            them better.  -tom
                                                            \_ Sorry, but
                                                               I disagree.
                                                               Private industry
                                                               does just fine
                                                               with both.
                                                               \_ where? -tom
                                                                  \_ Private
                                                                     school vs.
                                                                     public
                                                                     school,
                                                                     for
                                                                     example.
                                                                   \_ Private
                                                                      school
                                                                      doesn't
                                                                      provide
                                                                      universal
                                                                      education.
                                                                       -tom
                                                                       \_ Sure
                                                                  it does. It's
                                                                  just not free.
                                                                  It could be
                                                                  if the gov't
                                                                  handed over
                                                                  the $$$ they
                                                                  waste.
                                                                  \_ ah, so
                                                                    it's OK to
                                                                    tax to pay
                                                                    for school.
                                                                    Communist!
                                                                      -tom
                                                                    \_ Only
                                                                       okay to
                                                                       tax to
                                                                       support
                                                                       kids
                                                                       whose
                                                                       parents
                                                                       pay no
                                                                       tax. Most
                                                                       of us
                                                                       just get
                                                                       our own
                                                                       money
                                                                       back.
                                                        ______________/
                                                        That makes no sense.
                                                        How about this, we'll
                                                        have zero tax for
                                                        income up to $200K,
                                                        and 75% tax for income
                                                        over that, no
                                                        deductions.  People
                                                        who are taxed are
                                                        ineligible for public
                                                        school and health care.
                                                        Sound good?  -tom
                                                        \_ No, but only b/c I
                                                           find 75% rate
                                                           outrageous.
                                                           \_ So choose your
                                                              rate; tax
                                                              everyone over
                                                              $200K enough to
                                                              provide schooling
                                                              and health care
                                                              for everyone
                                                              under $200K.
                                                              Happy now?  -tom
                                                   \_ This is another straw man
                                                      argument, btw. "How are
                                                      you so certain..." How
                                                      are you so certain that
                                                      everything private
                                                      industry does is great?
                                                      \_ Well, private entities
                                                         generally give you an
                                                         element of choice in
                                                         where to spend your
                                                         money, unlike a pure
                                                         tax-funded government
                                                         program.
                                                         \_ We have choices
                                                            in a democracy too,
                                                            but they are just
                                                            determined
                                                            collectively.
                                                            \_ The 'fat hand'
                                                               in your choice
                                                               to intervene is
                                                               so much 'fatter'
                                                               in the gvt case,
                                                               that you are
                                                               either being
                                                               sarcastic or
                                                               disingenious.
                                                                 -- ilyas
                                                          \_ That's no comfort
                                                             at all.
                                    \_ I would be happy to pay much more, like
                                       50-60%, if it got me cradle to grave
                                       health care, education and welfare,
                                       along with clean safe streets, good
                                       public transportation and great parks
                                       and other public places, like they have
                                       in The Netherlands and Sweden. I think
                                       1/3 is fair, given how much the gov't
                                       has done for me in my life.
                                       \_ What has the gvt done for you that
                                          you think is worth giving 1/3rd of
                                          your life back to it every year until
                                          the day you die?  Would 1/4 be fair?
                                          Would 1/8 be fair?  1/20?  What about
                                          people the gvt has done less for?
                                          Should they pay less?  Is it fair
                                          that some people pay more and get
                                          less?
                                          \_ They (we really) fed me, clothed me
                                             and housed me when my family was
                                             poor. They gave me a free education
                                             when I was a child and then a job
                                             in the Army out of high school when
                                             I didn't know what I wanted to do
                                             and wasn't ready for college. They
                                             provided me an outstanding
                                             university education for less than
                                             1/10th what a private school would
                                             have cost me after the Army. They
                                             even gave me my first job after
                                             graduation, when I worked for the
                                             UC for a while. I benefit from
                                             knowing that I won't be starving
                                             and out on the streets when I am
                                             old. This lets me take more risk
                                             now, benefitting me (and society,
                                             indirectly). I am sure without all
                                             that government aid I got when I
                                             was young and needed it, I would
                                             not be as successful now. The gov't
                                             more than got its investment back
                                             in me as well. Is it fair? I
                                             don't know, is it fair that some
                                             people win the sperm lottery and
                                             some don't? Is it fair that one
                                             guy gets hit by a bus crossing the
                                             street and another does not? I
                                             think you are asking the wrong
                                             question. Life will never be "fair"
                                             but society as a whole benefits
                                             when we pool and share risk and
                                             when we have an educated populace.
                                             I think it is much more fair to
                                             tax a few people to feed the
                                             hungry than it would be to starve
                                             them. I am sorry that you don't
                                             feel the same way, but you are
                                             welcome to vote for politicians
                                             to implement your harsh vision of
                                             what a fair world would look like.
                                            \_ One thing I can say is that you
                                               don't know how your life would
                                               have been without this. You can
                                               speculate that you would have
                                               just starved. However, many
                                               people lived for thousands of
                                               years without a big helpful
                                               gov't and didn't always live
                                               like shit either. For example,
                                               the safety-net like constructs
                                               you love could conceivably be
                                               implemented by voluntary local
                                               communities/societies. There
                                               are/would be various forms of
                                               charity. You also don't know how
                                               the economy might look like
                                               without the current structure.
                                               Do you think an army is the only
                                               only possible job-provider?
                                               Could one not use loans to pay
                                               for university tuition, so you
                                               literally do pay someone back
                                               instead of handwaving and hoping
                                               for the best? Just some food
                                               for thought.
                                               \_ The devil you know, and all
                                                  that.
                                               \_ I might be able to imagine it
                                                  more clearly if you could
                                                  provide me with some real
                                                  world examples of societies
                                                  that had organized themselves
                                                  that way successfully. Surely
                                                  in human history there must
                                                  be some, right? When and where
                                                  were they?
                                                 \_ Why must there be? Were
                                                    there societies just like
                                                    the USA before the USA?
                                                    Not everything has been
                                                    done before, there are new
                                                    technologies and ideas,
                                                    and old ones that have
                                                    never been tried.
                                                    But think of any primitive
                                                    human tribal society. They
                                                    didn't generally throw the
                                                    old people to the wolves.
                                                    It seems like big gov't
                                                    wants to replace the role
                                                    of families and actual
                                                    human support structures.
                                                    What about my point about
                                                    the army and university?
                                                    Another problem here is
                                                    how you indenture yourself
                                                    for life, involuntarily. It
                                                    is not enough to say you
                                                    benefited. A slave benefits
                                                    from his master's food.
                                                    \_ So you want to replace a
                                                       system where the poor and
                                                       disabled have the right
                                                       to an existence as part
                                                       of the social contract
                                                       with one where they have
                                                       to depend on handouts
                                                       given at the whims of the
                                                       wealthy. And you think
                                                       that this is both going
                                                       to work and provide the
                                                       poor with more dignity.
                                                       Like I said, show me an
                                                       example of this ever
                                                       happening and I might not
                                                       be as skeptical. I don't
                                                       think a strong welfare
                                                       state eliminates the need
                                                       for family, though I can
                                                       see how it might lessen
                                                       the bonds a bit.
                                                       Oppresion tends to build
                                                       strong communities
                                                       amongst the oppressed
                                                       but that is hardly an
                                                       argument in its favor.
                        Handouts don't only come from the wealthy.   _/
                        Right to existence != right to others' property.
                        Unless it is a child's support from his parents.
                        I don't think there is a right to food, shelter, and
                        medical care. All those things require the work of
                        others; how can you have an inherent right to that?
                        Most rights we talk about are freedoms against others
                        doing something to you, not rights for them to do
                        something.
                        Being poor != oppression.
                        Entitlement handouts erode personal responsibility and
                        accountability.
                        Private charity organisations are widespread. There's
                        no reason to assume that they would not work. They
                        might work better than the current government programs.
                        I don't make any claim about dignity levels as that is
                        subjective and irrelevant.
                        In a country where there is not enough to go around,
                        you clearly cannot have a right to food. Therefore that
                        right is inherently nonsensical.
                        \_ I disagree with your notion of rights, simply stated.
                           Mine are much closer to the UN Declaration of Human
                           Rights or FDR's "Four Freedoms" than your Cato
                           Institute flavor. None of your wealth exists in
                           isolation of society and most of it is actually
                           generated by the social fabric. To imagine otherwise
                           is wrongheaded and naive. In those societies where
                           there was only private charity, starvation and
                           disease were (and are) rampant, so yes, there is
                           \_ Irrelevant... different times, different tech,
                              different wealth.
                           plenty of reason to think that this model of taking
                           care of the disabled, elderly, orphans and other
                           helpless members of society would be insufficient.
                           The only differnce is, you think it is fine to have
                           people dying of hunger on the streets and I do not.
                           \_ You must think it's fine also. You aren't
                              donating all your assets to feed hungry people
                              in other countries. In any case, you are creating
                              a false dichotomy. There are other ways to
                              address chronic poverty than chronic handouts,
                              and there are voluntary forms of handouts.
                           And how would you know anything about poverty? Have
                           you ever been poor? You seem like the type who was
                           born on third base and thinks he hit a triple,
                           frankly. The evidence that handouts erode personal
                           responsibility is thin. In Europe, class mobility
                           is higher than here.
                           \_ You are crazy if you think Europe has more
                              class mobility.
                           \_ Handouts are pacifiers which diminish people's
                              drive to fix the underlying problems.
                              \_ Prove it. Did your attending a publicly
                                 funded college make you dependent?
                                 \_ Most of us paid fees. If we had paid
                                    2X as many fees (unsubsidized) I don't
                                    think much would be different. In
                                    fact, Cal is headed in that direction.
                                 \_ why, then do countries which have more
                                    handouts have fewer underlying problems
                                    than the US?  Your stance is ideological
                                    and not based in reality.  -tom
2008/1/28-2/2 [Academia, Academia/GradSchool] UID:49028 Activity:nil
1/28    Does my McDiploma come with Fries?
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