Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:December:19 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2007/12/19-29 [Industry/Startup] UID:48833 Activity:moderate
12/18   What are some of the words product managers (PM) love to use when
        they talk to each other and to the management? I'll start:
        -silverstein that ass
        -web 2.0
        \_ Oh I LOVE this one, everytime my PM says this word every
           engineer on the team start to roll his eyes. Thanks.
        -low hanging fruit
        \_ Wow.  The PM's at your company are either assholes or idiots. -dans
           \_ Yes and your startup is probably full of young assholes
              who think they're all bad-asses like the ones in Facebook.
              Yet another reason I won't work at Facebook.
              \_ but facebook is magically valued at several billion judging from
                 the money microsoft gave them and the arbitrary percentage
                 ownership they pulled out of their ass!  How much is your
              \_ but facebook is magically valued at several billion judging
                 from the money microsoft gave them and the arbitrary percent-
                 age ownership they pulled out of their ass!  How much is your
                 company arbitrarily worth?
              \_ It's awesome how you can make vast sweeping assumptions about
                 the 500+ people at Facebook and the sizeable number of people
                 at Slide, and believe them to have a high probability of
                 correctness.  The folks I've met from Facebook seem young,
                 smart, talented, and ambitious.  Some of them are a little
                 brash, but, in my experience, they're basically cool people.
                 \_ I don't think anyone on motd trust your character
                 \_ you rule dan, you stuck Slide into this motd thread without
                    any prompting.  i am wondering how people come up with
                    the percentage that Microsoft supposedly owns now of
                    Facebook, and then people do the math and decide Facebook
                    is now worth a gajillion dollars.  It's almost as magical
                    as Google's netw worth.
                    \_ "Yes and your startup is probably full of young
                       assholes."  I didn't stick Slide into the thread
                       without prompting.  Microsoft *agreed* to invest over
                       $200M at a valuation of $15B.  Go take a business
                       course where they talk about valuation and you'll
                       understand how this process works.  Granted, Facebook
                       is a private company, so yes, the valuation could be
                       wrong (cf eBay's massive writedown over the purchase of
                       Skype).  As for Google's valuation, it's a public
                       company with real revenues and a high, but not insane
                       P/E ratio.  Of course, at the end of the day, it's
                       worth what people will pay for it.  There's very little
                       that's magic about the process.  Uncertain, yes, but
                       not magic. -dans
                       \_ I know a little about company evaluation.  I still think
                          the Facebook valuation is really arbitrary.  Just because
                          Microsoft says your arrogant buddies down in Palo Alto
                          are worth 15 billion doesn't mean they are worth 15
                       \_ I know a little about company evaluation.  I still
                          think the Facebook valuation is really arbitrary.
                          Just because Microsoft says your arrogant buddies
                          down in Palo Alto are worth 15 billion doesn't mean
                          they are worth 15 billion.
                          \_ I don't think your stance is unreasonable, and I
                             agree that valuation in general is more voodoo
                             and art than it is science so, yes, it *is*
                             arbitrary.  But it's not *completely* arbitrary.
                             I'm not particularly buddy-buddy with any
                             Facebook employees, but I have interacted with
                             them professionally, and chat regularly with a
                             few on IRC.  The folks I am familiar with don't
                             seem altogether arrogant.  Even if the people I
                             know are the exception not the rule, their
                             arrogance is, to an extent, justified.  Scaling a
                             web site to the size and volume of use that
                             Facebook handles is a HARD problem, and there is
                             no handbook or design pattern for how it's done.
                             Building a business to the size of Facebook and
                             continuing to grow at the rate Facebook is
                             growing despite it's already massive size is
                             non-trivial.  Even if you don't like their
                             attitude, you should respect the technical and
                             business achievements of the Facebook folks.
                             Maybe this is why you think the valuation is
                             'magic'.  Do you really appreciate and understand
                             the scale and scope that Facebook is working at?
                             Considering that you intimated that Google
                             doesn't deserve it's net worth, I think you may
                             not be seeing the big picture.  I'm curious, is
                             there an example of a company that you think
                             deserves it's valuation/market cap?  Microsoft?
                             GM?  Halliburton?  Bechtel? -dans
                 \_ I don't think anyone on motd trusts your character
                    \_ There you go making vast sweeping assumptions again.
                       How's that working for you? -dans
        \_ no brainer
        \_ yermom
2007/12/19-29 [Uncategorized] UID:48834 Activity:nil
12/19   What is the best easy to use straightforward well maintained code
        updated on a regular basis implementation of LVS out there?
        ultramonkey has a stupid name and appears to not have been updated
        in a while.
2007/12/19-29 [Reference/Religion] UID:48835 Activity:nil
12/19   Ken Jennings weighs in on the Romney/Mormon thing
2007/12/19-29 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:48836 Activity:very high
12/19   So the dumbducks in Congress are legislating what type of light
        bulb I can or cannot have. Are there CFL light bulbs to fit in
        chandeliers? Won't that look like ass or are they more attractive
        than the standard CFL bulbs? I am thinking of filling my garage
        with incandescent bulbs prior to 2014.
        \_ I'm with you. A good article on similar issue:
           \_ People talk about CFL emitting less heat. Won't that mean
              that in winter we have to run the heater that much more
              often to compensate? Where is the saving? Summer?
              \_ Your brain has been classified as: petite.
                 Think outside the box.
                 \_ Do you have anything useful to say?
              \_ Burning fuel in your furnace to heat the house directly is
                 more efficient than burning the fuel at a power plant to
                 generate electricity and then using the electricity to
                 generate heat at your house.  Someone talked about this here
                 on the MOTD a few months ago.
                 \_ Thanks for educating the dumb ass op. I was hoping
                    he'd think a bit more before his knee jerk replies.
                 \_ Sure, it's more efficient to do so, but you have to
                    take that into account when doing these 'savings'
              \_ Your A/C doesn't need to work as hard in summer.
              \_ Oh my god. You are dumb. Suppose what you said was
                 actually true, there will still be significant savings
                 during summer.
                 \_ Maybe not, because the days are long in the summer
                    anyway. Read the article above. It points out a lot
                    of problems with CFLs - dimmers, recessed lights,
                    ceiling fans, oven lights, timers, motion detectors,
                    and so on. Legislating technology is never a good thing.
                    There's a lot of research about CFLs that has yet to be
                    performed and yet we're committing to them as a panacea.
                    I think it's hasty and it's a mistake. If CFLs are so
                    great and save everyone money then they will win over
                    incandescents in the marketplace - and we are seeing
                    that to some extent already. If there's some environmental
                    cost not captured in current prices, then calculate it
                    and pass it on. Banning a functional and well-developed
                    technology in favor of a technology with unknown
                    implications is silly. In my house, I would have to replace
                    a lot of fixtures, wiring, dimmers, and so on to use CFLs
                    if I wanted to. That is not a net savings for me or the
                    environment. I have to imagine that ultimately our
                    government will realize this and allow us to have the
                    bulbs we want to have at an appropriate cost.
                    \_ Huh?  When your incadescant bulb burns out, you buy
                       a CFL bulb to replace it.  big deal.
                       \_ You're an idiot who didn't read the link or pay
                          attention to all the situations where a CFL
                          won't work! It's not always a drop-in replacement.
                    \_ 99 Ranch Market carries dimmable CFLs, 4 for $1.99.  It
                       works well with the light fixture at my home.
                       works well with the dimmer at my home.
                       \_ "All ravens are black"
                          \_ "Since not all ravens are black, you must be wrong
                             when you said you saw a black one."
                          \_ "You can't prove all ravens are black by seeing
                             a black raven.  Therefore there must exist ravens
                             that are non-black, and I don't need to prove it
                             or even see a non-black one."
                          BTW, how do you know it's "working well"? Read
                          the article. There is some chance it's not
                          working well at all and you don't know it
                          because you never tested it.
                          \_ Read my above post.  I wrote it works well *with
                             the dimmer at my home*.  I didn't write it works
                             well with every single dimmer out there.
                             \_ My point is that your data is useless so
                                why take up bandwidth with it. You never
                                answered my question: How do you know it's
                                working well?
                                \_ You wrote "you never tested it" and I said
                                   earlier it worked well at my home.  If by
                                   testing you meant scientific testing, no I
                                   do not scientifically test everything I use
                                   at my home.  Do you scientifically test
                                   incadescant bulbs that you use at your home
                                   such that you know it works well with your
                                \_ You wrote "you never tested it" after I
                                   wrote it worked well at my home.  By
                                   "working well" I took it as 1) dims just
                                   like incadescant, 2) doesn't make a humming
                                   noise when dimmed, 3) doesn't change color
                                   temperature when dimmed, 4) doesn't feel
                                   warm, nor does the dimmer switch, 5) doesn't
                                   fail after a few months, 6) doesn't cause
                                   electric fire to my house after a few
                                   months.  I didn't measure actual energy
                                   usage before or after.  If by testing you
                                   meant scientific testing, no I do not
                                   scientifically test it.  Do you
                                   scientifically test incadescant bulbs that
                                   you use at your home such that you know it
                                   works well with your dimmers?
                                   \_ 1-6) aren't useful. I haven't tested
                                      incandescent bulbs, but there has
                                      been research done which shows they
                                      work well. On the other hand,
                                      research done on CFL bulbs shows
                                      they do not work well. Your eyeball
                                      test is not the kind of data we
                                      should base public policy on. There
                                      could be a 0.5% chance that you will
                                      come home to a CFL-induced electrical
                                      fire tomorrow for all you know.
                                      \_ URL on the researches you mentioned
        \- are you going to decide which of your friends are "bulb worthy"?
        \_ Common item now:
           \_ Yes, but these are not clear. They look hideous, like some
              sort of alien egg. Not exactly what you want in your $10K
              Austrian crystal fixture. I would be willing to pay a lot of
              money for regular bulbs on the blackmarket. Why not charge me
              a polluter tax and let the free market decide which bulbs
              we want? I feel this light bulb thing is a ridiculous fad.
              We add a lot of mercury to the environment and we all get to
              pay $6 per light bulb. I really care about the environment,
              but this is enough to make me want to go kill some spotted owls.
              \_ You're a fucking dumb ass. If you had a $10k chandelier
                 you'd have clue as to where to get a bunch of illegal
                 \_ I see. So I have to smuggle light bulbs in from Iran
                    in order to light my damn fixture. Sounds reasonable
                    to me.
              \_ Paying $6 per light bulb?  Where have you been doing your
              \_ Paying $6 per light bulb?  Are those Calvin Kline brands?
              \_ Paying $6 per light bulb?  Are those Calvin Kline brand?
              \_ Paying $6 per light bulb?  Are those Calvin Klein brand?
        \_ Keep in mind that if we simply turned off all light bulbs in the US
           it wouldn't make a difference in greenhouse gas emissions.
           \_ Huh? Do you mean to say it wouldn't make a significant
              difference? Electricity in the US is mostly created by
              burning fossil fuels and electricity powers lightbulbs, so
              I don't see what you are trying to say here.
              \_ If you look at world emissions, our lighting is something like
                 1%.  Cattle farts contribute a lot more. You should go
                 vegetarian before CFLs.
                 \_ 1% of a gigantic number is still a huge number.
                    \_ Yep, but given the variety of causes and effects, it
                       can't even be measured reliably.  And current growth is
                       about 3% per year.  So that savings would be eclipsed in
                       4 months.
                        \_ So since growth is still happening we shouldn't try
                           to conserve anything?  BTW 5-10 years after peak oil
                           you will see an amazing amount of involuntary
                           conserving happening all over the place.
                           \_ so by twisted logic, since encouragging
                              voluntary conservation isn't working, we should
                              encourage waste to sooner bring about
                              circumstances where conservation is forced by
                              unavailability of the resources.
                 \_ Okay, I see what you mean. Yes, you are right, there
                    are probably lots of easier ways to make an impact on
                    C0^2 emissions.
                    \_ CO2 (The 'O' is for Oxygen) is plant food. Methane is a
                       vastly bigger contributor to warming, as is water vapor.
                       \_ There has been an increase in the amount of water
                          vapor in the atmosphere? Where did you hear that?
                       \_ "According to the Food and Agriculture Organization
                          of the United Nations, the livestock industry is
                          responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions\
                          measured in CO2 equivalent"
                          responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas
                          emissions measured in CO2 equivalent"
        \_ I predict many people with 100-Watt bulbs will replace them with 2
           60-Watt bulbs, thus increasing total power usage in the US.
           \_ How are you going to fit 2 bulbs in place of 1?
              \_ Buy more lighting?
                 \_ Why would people buy more lighting? The CFL puts out the
                    same amount of light with less juice.  Just because it
                    uses less electricity doesn't mean I want it to be brighter
                    \_ Actually, the CFL puts out less light for an "equivalent"
                    \_ Actually, the CFL puts out less light for an
                       "equivalent" bulb.
                       \_ It probably depends on your brand of incadescents and
                          CFLs.  I once used a light meter to check the light
                          output.  For one brand of CFLs I get the same output
                          as my old bulbs, while for another brand I get slight
                          more (2/10 f-stop.)
                          as my old bulbs, while for another brand I get
                          slightly (2/10 f-stop) more.
        \_ I don't understand all the CFL hating.  Almost my whole house uses
           CFLs.  They work fine, the light is fine, and they're pretty cheap.
           (I saw them for $1 at Safeway the other day.) -jrleek
           \_ You apparently have no sense of taste. There is no way the
              CFL bulbs on the market right now are suited for many
              lighting needs, including my example. I have an antique
              chandelier I bought and sticking a bunch of those white eggs
              into it isn't on my agenda. Do you think the people in
              Congress are going to abide by this? (For example, George Bush
              has a very expensive chandelier in his house in Texas.) They just
              haven't thought it through too well yet or else figure the
              has a very expensive chandelier in his house in Texas.) They
              just haven't thought it through too well yet or else figure the
              laws won't apply to them. I have to imagine there will be
              all kinds of exceptions. You go to a romantic restaurant and
              the inside is lit like Wal-Mart? Yeah, that's the future I
              want to live in.
              want to live in. Why not get rid of the fucking coal plants
              and go nuclear instead of legislating my god damned light bulbs?
              How much greener would the world be if all of Congress wore
              \_ You bought a chandelier and yet you have the gall to accuse
                 anyone of having no sense of taste? You're a moron.
                 \_ Seconded, the op sounds like a dumb ass.
                 \_ Yes, because chandeliers are a sign of poor taste and
                    IKEA is a sign of good taste. The lobby of the Ritz
                    is going to look really swanky with CFL bulbs in
                    place. Not everywhere has to look like some 20 year
                    old UCB CS student's dumpy apartment in El Cerrito.
                    \_ Wow, you're dumb and don't even realize it.
                       \_ Your argument is very convincing.
               \_ I like your screed about Congress, but the new CFL lights
                  don't make a place look like the interior of Wal-Mart.
                  The better ones have a pretty neutral color palate, quite
                  close to incadescent. I agree with you on the chandelier
                  though. Maybe people will go back to gas for light in
                  these cases though. Wouldn't that be a hoot?
                  \_ Ha ha! I applaud your thinking. I can convert it
                     back to gas if I have to! Hee! The fact that CFLs
                     don't dim is why the place will look like Wal-Mart.
                           \_ LEDs!
                           \_ 99 Ranch Market carries dimmable CFLs, 4 for
                              $1.99.  It works well with the dimmer at my home.
                     I guess we will just use candles again. Yay progress!
                     \_ I wonder what the carbon footprint of a gas powered
                        lamp is...
        \_ You know what is even dumber about this idea? In probably 10
           years we will have a new lighting technology that is better
           in just about every way than CFL (LED) and we will have a bunch
           of homes locked into an older useless technology because of
           this law. Did you know that all new construction in San Francisco
           has to have special flourescent bulb fittings as standard? That
           is going to look pretty stupid in 10-20 years, I bet.
           \_ Yes, it will, which is why you don't legislate technology.
              A command economy is not as efficient as a market economy.
              Let the market decide where it makes sense and where it does
              not. With all of the contributors to pollution and global
              warming our politicians decided to take a stand on LIGHT BULBS.
              Not a tax, mind you, but an all-out ban! Next thing you know
              they are going to tell us whether we should receive broadcast TV
              in digital or analog.
              \_ I thought they have already done that for TV.  Aren't new TV
                 sets required to have digital tuner now, and analog broadcast
                 will be phased out by FCC in some year later?
                 \_ I don't mind that one as much because broadcast spectrums
                    are limited common resources. Gov't has to regulate it
                    to some extent, maybe not the way they did though.
              \_ I think we shouldn't legislate CFL technology, but we should
                 legislater a certain efficiency requirement which happens to
                 match the efficiency of today's CFLs.  I heard Phillips is
                 trying to improve incadescent bulb's efficiency (although I
                 have no idea how they can possibly do it.)
                 \_ Or why they would bother now, since they can't sell
                    them. Face it, light bulbs are not efficient. Even
                    CFLs are not efficient. Pick another battle to fight.
                 have no idea how they can do it.)
                 \_ Why legislate it at all? Government has much more important
                    things to worry about instead of micromanaging technology.
                    \_ Agreed.  A energy tax or greenhouse gas tax will be
                       simpler and more effective, but that's probably not
                       politically good.
                       \_ That's because the average voter is a moron.
                          \_ Agreed again.
              \_ GE is working on incandescent bulbs that are as efficient as
                 \_ Why, when they won't be allowed to sell them?
                    \_ They can sell it outside CA.
                       \_ No. The ban is nationwide by the US Congress.
2007/12/19-29 [Finance/Banking] UID:48837 Activity:nil
12/19 (
        (At 26:20) Operator:  "Again, at this time, if you would like to ask
        a question, please press *1 on your telephone keypad"  * Silence *
        Sallie Mae CEO:  "How good is this.  Steve, let's go, there's no
        questions, let's get the fuck out of here."
2007/12/19-29 [Uncategorized] UID:48838 Activity:nil
12/19   How many of you put in stop losses under your stock holdings?
        How do you decide where to place the stop?
2007/12/19-29 [Uncategorized] UID:48839 Activity:nil
12/19   More Spa questions:
        What's a facial?  (Not what I was thinking I think.)
        \_ In Spa context probably a treatment where they dump
           weird shit like cucumber all over your face.
        \_ Facial is when you put some very thick paste on the face, then you
           lie there for half an hour or so to wait for it to dry up a littie,
           then you lift the paste (now looking like a mask) off your face.
           This supposedly applies nutrients to the face skin as well as
           removes dirt and dead skin.  (Of course there's that other meaning
           in that other context.)
        \_ in Porn, it means something totally different, though it still
           involves stuff on someoen's face...
        What's Swedish massage vs Therpudic vs Deep Tissue?
2007/12/19-29 [Reference/BayArea, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:48840 Activity:kinda low
12/19   An inconvenient truth for SF
        \_ I thought this was going to be about the high murder rate.
           "Between March 2004 and August 2005, a relatively small group of
           people - just 362 individuals - accounted for 3,869 ambulance
           trips to the hospital." Jeebus!
           \_ Yes, when Regan threw the mentally ill out on the street they
              clogged up the medical system.  Unfotunetly people refuse to
              actually treat the mentally insane and instead they tie up
              emergency services because crazy homeless people are generally
              a fucking mess and need assistance.  Think of it as yet another
              reason we need a reasonable health care system.
              \_ I think we just need to eliminate the mentally ill like
                 the Spartans used to. No need to have that in the gene
                 pool. It's a tough stance, sure, but those people are
                 never going to get well and they are probably miserable
                 being alive anyway.
        \_ Why is this inconvenient? It sounds like a good place for some
           improved public policy, though.
           \_ He's trying to link people who love al gore and his global
              warming movie with homeless street bums in SF.  a bit of a reach
           \_ At what point would you tell your emergency crews 'this person
              has had too many calls, leave them lying there in the street' ?
              \_ So I know doctors swear the Hippocratic Oath, do nurses or
                 paramedics take a similar oath?  If so, to tell emergency
                 crews to leave someone would put them in a pretty
                 unreasonable and untenable ethical position. -dans
              \_ I would probably never do that, but I think The City should
                 start enforcing some of its "drunk in public" laws and get
                 these guys locked up, sobered up and in rehab. -SF liberal
                 \_ My point being, you can't be telling your emergency
                    responders to ignore calls.  ever.  The best you can do is
                    find a way to punish those abusing the system.
                 \_ You can't rehab someone who doesn't want to be hab'd. (Or,
                    doesn't care enough to put in the effort.)
                    \_ No, but you can lock those people up. I say bring back
                       the psych hospitals. -SF (maybe not so) liberal
        \_ Why not just make "chronic ambulance abuse" a crime and eventually
           jail them? I dunno, is there a solution?
        \_ Huh, this explains a lot of what happened to be about 6mo ago.
           I got woken up at about 3am by some dude moaning in the park
           across the street.  When I finally figured out what it was, I
           thought about going back to sleep, but eventually called the
           non-emergency cop line instead.  They came and said, "Is that you
           Jesse?"  Then they radioed in an ambulance.  I kinda figured they
           just called the ambulance because they didn't want to have to haul
           his fat butt into a patrol car, and didn't want him puking in there
           anyway.  This was in Livermore.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:December:19 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>