Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:December:06 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2007/12/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48753 Activity:kinda low
        Violence is down. Bush's war is almost over!!!
        \_ Ignorance is Strength!
        \_ How is the delivery of power going? How about oil exports? I believe
           these reports more than the heavily massaged numbers on civilian
           \_ If they were 110% you'd find something else to whine about.  The
              country is a mess from 3 wars, 10 years of sanctions, and
              decades of destructive government.  It won't be fixed for years.
2007/12/6-7 [Reference/Religion] UID:48754 Activity:high
12/6    Mitt "Athiests can't be free" Romney!
        \_ Is that Mitt's brother?  Since that's not his name and he didn't say
           \_ Ack, brain fart.  And he said that without religion we
              can't be free.
              \_ As a society, not as individuals.
                 \_ How is this better?
                    \_ Can you name a free society in history that lacked
                       \_ Isn't Singapore incredibly secular?
                       \_ Lacked an official religion or religion as an
                          official requirement, or lacked religious and/or
                          non-religious freedom?
                          \_ A society of religious people, not necessarily a
                             state religion (which actually damages personal
                             religion) or 100% religious individuals.
                             \_ You're asking for a free society of religious
                                \_ Yes, like the United States--perhaps you've
                                   heard of it?
                                   \_ Are Americans required to be religious?
                             \_ The Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, just to name
                                a few places I have been to.
                               \_ Which are all on the tipping point of
                                  collapse.  Read "America Alone" and "While
                                  Europe Slept"
                                  \_ From the inside flap or A.A. ...
And liberals will still tell you that "diversity is our
strength" while Talibanic enforcers cruise Greenwich Village burning
books and barber shops, the Supreme Court decides sharia law doesn't
violate the "separation of church and state," and the Hollywood Left
decides to give up on gay rights in favor of the much safer charms of
                                     Yeah... I think I can safely
                                     ignore this book.
                                     \_ And the other one?
                                      \_ I didn't really feel the need to
                                         check out a book recommended in the
                                         same sentance as Amercia Alone.
                                         If someone can recommend a book
                                         with that as the grab you text, well,
                                         I don't really care what else they
                                  \_ And we're on the tipping point of supply
                                     side economics working!  All hail the
                                     downfall of the heathens!
                                     \_ And have you read either of those
                                        \_ Why not just read Cato the Elder?
                                           These are the same old themes and
                                           Cato is probably better written.
                               \_ Are you saying they aren't religious? If so
                                  I'm not sure where you get that idea.
                                  \_ A majority of people in those countries
                                     don't believe in God. I don't know where
                                     you get the idea that they are "religious."
                                     \_ Well they are historically Christian.
                                        Christianity is still part of the
                                        culture, for burials and christenings
                                        for example. I also knew some religious
                                        Swedes so I guess my perception is off.
                                        I just googled and you're right.
                                        \_ My perception is probably also
                                           throw off by who I know, but in
                                           The Netherlands especially, religion
                                           is in obvious decline, with a number
                                           of old churches being converted to
                                           new uses, like office buildings. It
                                           actually seemed kind of odd, even
                                           blasphemous to me, but I guess it
                                           \_ blasphemous?  who cares?  take
                                              religion too seriously and you
                                              get abominations like that case
                                              in Sudan where they wanted to
                                              kill a school teacher for
                                              "insulting Islam" for allowing
                                              kids to name a teddy bear
                                              "Muhammad".  Insulting religion
                                              and "blasphemy" shouldn't be
                                              crimes, nor even discouraged,
                \_ A bigger problem is the women in many Islamic oriented
                   societies have almost no rights.  One of their big problems
                   is places like Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Afghanistan may
                   or not have actual written laws, I forget, but whatever
                   is written down may be trumped immediately by Shariah,
                   or whatever law the current high Islamic clerics interpret
                   as law, that day.  At least in America when you get screwed,
                   they do it with a law that's actually written down somewhere.
                   Who cares about a stupid teddy bear.
                                              \_ The world is not quite as
                                                 black and white as that, imho.
                                           is better than tearing them down.
                                           The exact number of non-believers
                                           depends on how you ask the question
                                           too, I realize. Not that many
                                           "athiests" but lots of "I don't go
                                           to church or believe in God."
                       \_ Irrelevent.  Correlation != causation
                          \_ Right. It's like saying, can you name a free
                             society in history that lacked disease?
                             \_ Actually, religion is very like a disease of
                                the mind.  You suspend all your reasoning
                                powers and critical thinking.
                                \_ Yeah that thought crossed my mind as I wrote
                                   that too. The problem is that "faith" is a
                                   limitless path. It can be used to justify
                                   just about anything. In general it leads to
                                   irrational conflict with other faiths, and
                                   manipulation of the faithful.
                                \_ So what about the people of substantial
                                   reasoning and critical thinking who are
                                   \_ Religion is regarded by the common people
                                      as true, by the wise as false, and by the
                                      rulers as useful -Seneca the Younger 4BC
2007/12/6-12 [Uncategorized] UID:48755 Activity:nil
12/6    Is mailman the best list server software? What's your favorite?
        \_ At my last job we had an hold and well hacked majordomo install.
        \_ At my last job we had an old and well hacked majordomo install.
           I was going to move it to mailman but the conversion wasn't worth
           it.  From scratch I would've done mailman.  Without going
           commercial there isn't much out there.
2007/12/6-13 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:48756 Activity:kinda low
12/6    About "While Europe Slept"
        Having recently published an indictment of Christian fundamentalist
        intolerance in the U.S. (Stealing Jesus), New York native Bawer
        relocated to Europe with his Norwegian partner in 1998 and found an
        even more dangerous strain of religious and cultural bigotry ensnaring
        Western Europe. A swarming menace called radical Islam, he writes,
        rings Europe's cities in smoldering Muslim ghettos, provoking
        everything from so-called honor killings and political assassinations
        to the Madrid subway bombings and the massacre of school children in
        Beslan. Worse, the Taliban-like theocracy Bawer sees looming inside
        backward immigrant populations resistant to integration flourishes
        under the protective wing of Western Europe's America-bashing,
        multicultural, liberal establishment.
        \_ Sure, and that's why armed thugs are enforcing burka-wearing
           ordinances in Fremont. Oh, wait, they're not? How'd that happen?
           Oh, right, because Bawer's a nut and a bigot.
           \_ He's gay, and went to the Netherlands to live in a more accepting
              place with his partner. He was assaulted at least once by Muslims
              who saw him together with his partner.
              \_ And on the basis of this he insists that Europe is one step
                 from Sharia? Cf. "I got mugged by a black man, so all black
                 men must be criminals."
           \_ Fremont is in Europe?
              \_ Sorry, misread "Europe's" for "American."
        \_ Yeah, go back and read about how the Irish/Italians/Mexicans, etc
           would not integrate and were doomed to destroy America. It is the
           same old alarmism. It is perhaps true that Europe has a shorter
           history of integrating immigrants, so will need to learn, but
           same old alarmism. It is perhaps true that Europe has less
           experience in integrating immigrants, so will need to learn, but
           hardly concievable that a small minority would overwhelm the
           majoritarian culture.
           \_ Irish/Italians/Mexicans were not Muslim.
            \_ And therefor not EEEEEEEEEEVIL?
              \_ No, they were Catholic, which was considered even worse.
                \_ Yet they weren't blowing people up.
                   \_ Neither are Muslims.  The French riots, 9/11, etc were
                      all the acts of "students" and "youths".
                   \_ You are obviously unfamiliar with the history of the
                      IWW. Ever heard of the Haymarket Riot?
2007/12/6-13 [Uncategorized] UID:48757 Activity:nil
12/6    I need a replacement for Visio.  Suggestions?
        \_ OmniGraffle if you are on MacOS X
2007/12/6-7 [Reference/Religion] UID:48758 Activity:nil
12/6    Bernie Ward, a popular San Francisco radio talk show host and former
        Catholic priest, has been indicted on federal child pornography
        charges, authorities said today.
        \_ Whoa!  url?
           \_ It's breaking news. Do you know how to use the google machine?
              \_ I don't use google. It has a very liberal bias. Use Yahoo!
              \_ I guess turning people over to a Chinese worker gulag is
                 pretty conservative, you have me there.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:December:06 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>