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| 2007/11/19-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:48657 Activity:very high |
11/19 Warrent Buffet says that the inheritance tax / death tax is a good
mm
thing. No surprise since his company makes a fortune buying up
properties sold to pay for the tax.
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/vernon/050824
\_ The problem with death taxes: when I earned the money, I was taxed
on it. Now it's mine. I should be able to do what I want with it.
Taking it from my estate upon death means giving it to other people
who had absolutely nothing to do with earning it. Giving it to my
family & friends means giving it to people who physically,
emotionally, and/or financially helped me earn it. For example,
a man who spends all his time working has less time to spend with
his family. It cost the family something. When dad/husband is
dead, the least they should get is the money he earned for them
while away from them. Neither the government nor any strangers
getting 'entitlements' are entitled in any way to his earnings.
They already got their cut when he earned it. I have no interest
in hearing from the ultra wealthy about their solutions for the
country which always seem to involve things that don't hurt the
billionaires or their families in any way. Buffet is obviously
a great investor but he is in no position to dictate social or
tax policy for the Little People. He should stick with what he
knows: investing in successful companies other people built.
\_ You say you should be able to do what you want with your
money and not be taxed on the transfer. When you buy goods from
a merchant, you pay sales tax, even though you've already paid
\_ not all states have a sales tax. i also have a choice to
buy elsewhere or not at all. death is mandatory.
taxes on the money you used to pay the merchant (presumably).
Wealth is taxed more or less whenever it changes hands; why
should it matter if the transfer is due to death instead of a
voluntary transfer? And if you think the government didn't
help you earn that money, you need to brush up on both your
civics and your economics.
\_ the government helped. they got paid the first time.
i see no reason to pay them a second time when my family
hasn't been paid the first time and it cost them a lot
more than it did some random government chosen recipient
through random vote-buying 'entitlement' program.
if you want to tax the rich, just go for it and create a
straight wealth tax. go tax buffet a few billion a year
(i think 10% is fair) just for having money.
\_ Good luck getting your ideas implemented into law.
\_ Would you prefer to return to hereditary aristocricy? This guy
is another rich guy doesn't want to pay his fair share of taxes
and would rather that someone else pay it for him. What else is new?
\_ The important thing isn't income disparity (which is increasing)
but lifestyle disparity (which is decreasing). -- ilyas
\_ What does this even mean?
\_ What it means is that income differences matter less and
less. There was a thread on this in the past. Personal
computers, cell phones, reliable cars, electronics, etc.
are getting cheaper and better all the time, which means
the poor in America can afford many of the same 'bits
of lifestyle' as the rich. This is why a straight
income comparison is misleading, the rich spend more and
more of their surplus on 'brand differentiation' not
quality. -- ilyas
\_ Not so sure of this. Look at the crappy food the poor
eat. The lead-based toys and other cheap Chinese imports
from Wal-Mart. I know some wealthy people and their
lifestyle is not really extravagant, but the
eat, their lead-filled toys, and other cheap Chinese
imports from Wal-Mart. I know some wealthy people and
\_ It's a free country, people are free to eat and
play whatever/whenever. Ultimately, people are
responsible for their own actions. If they want
to smoke to death or play with lead laden toys,
that is their choice.
\_ Sure, but there are a lot of people who
cannot afford a healthy lifestyle even if
they want to live one. This isn't about
choice, but about opportunity. The poor eat
far more often at McDonald's because of the
price and they pay for it with their lives.
Many would probably prefer organic grassfed
beef burgers, but it's not an option for them.
\_ Like I said, this is a free country, if the
rich can afford more options, then they will
pick the better options. So what? It's been
like that way since the dawn of mankind.
How are you going to "solve the problem"
for the poor? Communism? Socialism?
More regulations?
\_ You're arguing against your own strawman.
I didn't say we need to do anything about
it. I am just disputing the assertion that
lifestyle disparity is decreasing even as
income disparity increases.
\_ I dispute that notion about McDonald's.
McDonald's is not cheap when compared to
home cooking using modest ingredients.
For example, just cooking rice/potatoes/
any commodity staple, cheap veggies,
and some cheap meat from Safeway is going
going to be healthier and cheaper than
McD's in all likelihood. However McD's is
fast. Maybe some of the poor have no time
to cook, because time is a luxury. But
I think it's mostly their own laziness:
most people can do better than McD's.
(You don't even need meat, of course.)
\_ You're very wrong. I cannot make a
double cheeseburger for myself for 99
cents even if I use the worst
ingredients I can find. Yes, I can eat
plain white rice for cheaper, but that
misses the point. My girlfriend and I
cook a lot - more than most people -
and it's always the same or more
expensive than eating fast food. Sure,
the quality is better, but it costs more.
It's cheaper than a good restaurant
meal, but not by much. Restaurants have
economies of scale that I can't match.
Maybe if you have 9 kids you start to
get close.
\_ In terms of actual food value the
rice is better, so it's not missing
the point.
Anyway, the 99 cent cheeseburger
uses frozen, crappy meat and not a lot
of it, and ultra cheap buns that are
mostly air anyway. The cheese is process
cheese. If you make your own you would
spend more because you'd use better
things, but you don't have to. There's
nothing else on that except condiments.
I think you can pretty easily make meals
that have more "food value" than those
burgers per dollar. If you really
wanted you could also cooperate with
other poor families to create that
"economy of scale" thing.
\_ We're not talking about "food
value". I am using McDonald's as
an example of the type of fast
food that the poor eat and
comparing it to the type of fast
food that the wealthy eat. If
you want to talk about cooking at
home, then the wealthy can live even
better. Your argument is "Don't
eat fast food at all" which misses
the point of the comparison. BTW, I
would be very unhappy if I ate plain
rice every day and I would harm myself
or others.
\_ We're not? I am. You said: "poor
people eat McD's because of the
low price... pay for it with
their lives... would prefer
organic grassfed". I'm just
saying that if they wanted to
they could eat tasty alternatives
that are healthier, or for not
much more, cook their own
hamburgers. I'm not saying
not to eat fast food. I'm saying
that it's a choice.
Many millions of people eat
"plain rice" every day.
\_ If you tried to subsist on a
diet of only rice, you would die.
\_ That's not what I suggested in
my original reply.
their lifestyle is not really extravagant, but the
quality is much better. Are you one of those people
who thinks a handmade leather Italian shoe and a
machine-made shoe made in Mayalsia out of rubber
are equivalent because they provide equal utility
and the main difference is 'brand differentiation'?
The wealthy live better and tend to live "smaller"
in that they care more about things like
environmental toxins and political issues in
faraway lands. The poor just want the cheapest shoe
possible, regardless if it will turn their toes green.
Important products that everyone used to have, like
organic food, are now only affordable to the wealthy.
Those products are more important to a good quality
of life than the fact that LCD televisions are now in
reach of the common man.
\_ It's true that some things that were more available
in the past like organic food or hand-made furniture
are less available/more expensive today, but you are
being disingenious by ignoring the VASTLY LARGER
number of things that were invented and
made affordable to the general population. Again,
it's true that premium brands tend to be better made
(although not always, for instance luxury car brands
tend to be less reliable than hondas/toyotas).
I am merely saying that the gap in lifestyle has
been shrinking for the last 100 years. If you are
truly concerned about 'the gilded age' trends,
you need to look at lifestyle, not income. Of
course, 'lifestyle differences' are much harder to
quantify and talk about, we are not talking about
numbers in a bank account. -- ilyas
\_ In general, a bigger bank account means a
\_ In general, a bigger the bank account means a
better lifestyle. A much bigger bank account
means a much better lifestyle. I don't think
this has changed very much. I know where
you're coming from (a king in 1400 lived less
well in many ways than we commoners today)
but I don't see a trend where this disparity
has really changed much over the last, say,
40 years at least. In fact, the gap seems to
be widening if you look at statistics like
home ownership.
\_ Yes, of course income is strongly and
positively correlated with lifestyle quality.
My claim of decreasing lifestyle gap comes from
the observation that mass production,
specialization, and other capitalist
institutions result both in innovation
(invention of additional ways to improve
lifestyle), and efficiency (current lifestyle
improvements strongly tend down in price).
The only way for the lifestyle gap to be
increasing is if the number of qualitative
lifestyle changes was increasing faster due
to inventions than existing lifestyle
to inventions faster than existing lifestyle
was trending down in price. But there is
little evidence for this. Innovations
to differentiate products for wealthy
consumption seem to favor premium brands as
value-in-itself, various 'intangibles'
(like hand-crafted assembly), and health
and environmental consciousness. These things
are valuable, but that the rich increasingly
turn to these things is hardly evidence of
a widening lifestyle gap. -- ilyas
a widening lifestyle gap. (I would
be surprised if long term home ownership
trends weren't strongly positive, btw). -- ilyas
\_ How about looking at home ownership or
at the number of dual income families
compared to, say, the 1950s? Even in my
own family in the 1970s, neither my mom
or dad had a college degree and they
worked entry level jobs. They still had
a house in the suburbs, two brand
news cars, and sent the kids to private
school even though my mom took 5 years
off work to help with the kids. That
still happens in parts of the country,
but the fact that it's much less common
now is evidence that the gap is
increasing, since the rich live as
well as ever and yet the middle class
lifestyle is eroding.
\_ http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/ownerchar.html
-- ilyas
\_ Home ownership has been trending up
since the 50s (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/ownerchar.html
\_ But if you look at the numbers
you'll notice that it's the
over65 segment which rose even
while more and more families
became dual income households. I
think that is significant. I also
don't think dual incomes have as
much to do with social norms as
with the need to make ends meet.
I think you acknowledge that
there is greater income disparity.
I think it is patently obvious that
what follows is a lifestyle disparity.
You can't point to a shrinking
disparity because of this
nebulous 'brand differentiation'
without more data that I haven't seen
you produce.
\_ So that's it? That's your
evidence? All this is evidence of
is that housing costs rose faster
than effective income. You need a
lot more comprehensive argument to
counteract the vast evidence for
my conclusion (for instance look
at the availability of consumer
electronics since the 70s, or
car quality, or power/price of
personal computers, or a thousand
other things). There is more to
lifestyle than a house, that's why
I say you need to average over
everything. -- ilyas
\_ Most households spend over
50% of their net income on
housing, so it's a lot more
important than anything else.
You can say that electronics has
gotten better since 1970, but
how does it follow that the
disparity between the quality of
the lifestyles of the rich and
the poor has gotten smaller?
I don't think the standard
of living now for the lower
classes in the US is higher
than ever, but it certainly
is for the wealthy. QED,
unless you want to make the
argument that the lower
classes (or even middle
class) are living better
than ever. From my observation,
I wouldn't say the middle class
lives a better lifestyle than
the 1950s even we now have
a lot more gadgets and the
average car is nicer than it
was.
\_ Your notion of 'better'
is strange and confusing.
-- ilyas
\_ Here's an idea to
help you understand: Look
at household debt now
versus at some point in
the past. Having more
useless crap doesn't mean
we live a better life.
\_ So cars, personal
computers, the internet,
home electronics,
medical advances, etc.
are 'crap?' Gotcha!
The number of dual income families has
apparently been trending up since the
50s, but that in itself is not
evidence of a 'squeeze' (but changing
social norms for women). Neither is
your anecdote. -- ilyas
your anecdote. Even changing percentages
for specific expenditures like housing
or healthcare is not, in itself,
evidence of a squeeze. (This is why
lifestyle is difficult to talk about,
you have to average over everything).
-- ilyas
\_ So you admit that people are working
longer hours, getting paid less and
having to commute more, but in the
face of all this, you claim that their
lifestyle has "improved." How about
the fact that crowding has increased
over the last decade? Food insecurity?
\_ Is it true the vast majority of
"food-insecure" adults are
overweight?
\- panem et circensus. lcd televisions in the reach
of the common man keeps people from boredom
and involved in petty politics and/or
revolutions. lcds and football games are like
the romans bread and circuses. feed 'em so they
dont starve, and keep 'em entertained...and you
wont have to worry about public unrest. it was
true in roman times, and it's at least as valid
today. panem et circensus
\- ps b i am gay
\- ps i am gay
\_ This is not psb's voice, btw.
\_ There is so much wrong with this I'm having a hard time starting.
1) False dichotomy
2) Are you saying we don't have a hereditary aristocrisy? I
guess the Kennedys don't exist?
3) Anyone with enough liquid assets can easily get around this
by:
- setting up a non-profit and donating money to it
- appointing their children as the board of directors and
compensate them quite well
4) I've just started my own business. The death tax would force
my kids to sell off my share.
\_ Who do you propose to pay the tax burden instead? How long
has America had an inheritance tax? This guy (and you) all
made money knowing full well what the rules are, why should
we change them in the middle of the game to favor you even
more? And isn't the first $5M untaxed anyway? Why should a
bunch of people who did nothing to deserve a windfall benefit
at the expense of everyone else?
\_ Here's a key concept: It's not your money to take away.
If I can't give my property to my children, I don't own it.
It's one thing to fund the government, it's another to be a
communist. -op
\_ I notice you have not answered the first question, nor
are you able to do so. You claim that anyone who is in
favor of any taxes whatsover is a communist? You are
a lunatic. I do not have conversations with crazy people.
a lunatic. I do not have conversations with crazy
people.
\_ I don't like to have conversations with stupid
people. I said "funding the gov't is one thing".
That means I understand the need for taxes. However,
once you say "why should he get money?" you're a
communist.
communist. -op
\_ So who are you going to raise taxes on instead?
I am always amused when far right wingers claim
that the position supported by an overwhelming
majority of Americans is extremism.
\_ It's not amusing when far left wingers do it?
\_ If you can give me an example of that
happening, I guess I would let you know
if I thought it was funny or not. If you
mean people like ANSWER, yeah I think they
are pretty funny.
\_ It's a bad question. The question isn't "who
should we take from", it's "if we remove this
tax, what do we do". Firstly we should
eliminate the programs that are simply wealth
transfers. That'd take care of about 60% of
the federal budget. -op
\_ So you want to eliminate Social Security
so that the wealthy don't have to pay
estate tax. I see.
\_ They're 2 separate issues. SS is going
away anyway, but yes, I'm in favor of
eliminating it. Yes, I'm in favor of
eliminating the death tax. The first is
not to provide for the 2nd. -op
\_ Which "wealth transfers" are you
talking about then? There is no way
that "wealth transfers" are 60% of
the federal budget, unless you
include SS in that 60%.
http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm
You can quibble about the percentage
of debt payment that should be
considered devoted to "past military"
but those numbers are all up to date
and accurate. Military + VA + debt
is already half the budget. Do you
call things like the Dept of Homeland
Security a "wealth transfer"?
And the death of Social Security has
been predicted many, many times, but
so far, she is still beating strong
and overwhelming popular.
\_ Who says it's so popular? Are
payroll taxes popular?
\_ 70 years of persistance in the
face of Conservative attempts
to eliminate it speak to its
popularity. You could also google
for a poll, if you really wanted
an answer.
\_ Slavery persisted a long time
too. I could google for one,
but I thought you might already
have had a source in mind. But
no, it was just something you
pulled from your ass.
\_ You really believe that
answers the point? Social
Security enjoys upwards of
70% support in any poll you
could find. In addition,
GWB's plan's disapproval
never dropped below 60%.
You seem to be something
pulled from an ass.
--scotsman
\_ that's the 70% of people
who plan to get a lot more
out of other people's
pockets than they'll ever
pay in who have no plan
for their own retirement.
that sort of number not
only does not impress me
but worries me that this
country is turning into a
nanny state socialist pit.
\_ If you don't like
democracy, leave.
\_ Should I quote the
line about
democracy being
great until people
figure out they
can vote themselves
goodies? The motd
is full of uber
geniuses today.
\_ Quote all you
want, you undemo-
cratic, elitist
thug.
\_ I don't know but 60% is not
"overwhelming". GWB's plan
is not the only alternative
to SS. SS as implemented is
broken and regressive.
\_ It is when approval
never got above 35%.
never got above 33%.
GWB's plan wasn't about
"fixing" it. There are
broken portions, and
changes need to be made,
but the pp spoke of
eliminating it. That's
an idea that you can't
sell to this country.
\_ I love that "his fair share". Define fair share. -op
\_ Arbitrarily: 50%.
\- The only question worth asking about the Renew America columnist
is "is he stupid or does he think you are stupid" ... i.e. "is
he stupid or is he disingeuous?". If you arent interested in
speculating on that Q, not worth reading.
\_ So everyone should pay 50%? -op
\_ From each according to his means, to each according to
his needs.
\_ I am a democratic and I am opposed to the death and
inheritance tax. It should be my god given right to give my
hard earned money to my children without tax. Take 50% of
that away is just robbery, plain and simple.
\- Grover Nordquist just got his wings.
\_ You haven't done much research on this subject, have you?
\_ Odds are that if you're not the uber-rich, you will be able to
give your money to your kids with a minimum of tax.
\_ And if you are the uber-rich, you will certainly be able to
give your money to your kids with no tax at all!
\_ How? If so, what the fuck is the inheritence tax
for? The not so rich father that didn't know better?
\_ It has been argued that inheritance taxes on the rich
exist as incentives for those worthies to donate
heavily to charities.
\_ But the real reason is "because we can"
\_ That's right, the same people who fought tooth
and nail against godless communism are now
taking rich people's money because they can.
See you in the food lines, comrade.
\_ Oh boo hoo, everyone has to pay taxes and
it has been thus since Roman times. Forgive
me if I don't shed a tear for you.
\_ That's a fascinating argument. All sorts
of shitty things have been true since Roman
times. Death, for instance.
\_ I think we should bring slavery back.
It's the natural order, has been since
Roman times.
\_ I agree. MANIFEST DESTINY!!!
\_ Yes, we should outlaw death too. That
will work. Why not move someplace where
is no functioning government and therefore
no taxes? I think Somalia is a libertarian
paradise. You can have all the guns you
want, too.
is no functioning government and
therefore no taxes? I think Somalia is
a libertarian paradise. You can have all
the guns you want, too.
\_ Dailykos talking points!
\_ You are an idiot.
\_ Please give some examples of this happening.
\_ Cf. Gallo
\_ http://www.csua.org/u/k15 (PBS)
Are you referring to this? It says here that
they paid their taxes, but over a number of years.
Do you mean something else?
\_ Check out the Straight Dope article. You're right,
they didn't avoid the tax entirely, but they've
reduced it significantly.
\_ By what percentage was their tax reduced? I
am not being contentious, I am just curious. |
| 2007/11/19-21 [Computer/Networking] UID:48658 Activity:nil |
11/17 What's a good windows firewall?
just for my local machine, i'm not routing or anything
silly with it.
\_ Hardware firewalls cost less than $50.
\_ "good windows firewall" -- theres 3 words there, and one does not
belong with the other two. Guess which one. |
| 2007/11/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:48659 Activity:kinda low |
11/17 mocking you is fun dans
i hope you're around for a long long time
\_ Awww. I've always wanted to bring joy and entertainment to
anonymous motd personalities. Now I can die fulfilled. -dans
\_ the key to win the troll war is to respond with FEWER
keystrokes. Try again.
\_ dans has already lost. Do you think any of the senior
soda people in hiring capapcities are going to hire him...
either if they read the motd or know anybody who does?
It's possible dans comes off the same in real life, so the
motd isn't necessary for this outcome.
\_ YOU have lost the troll war. You responded too much. |
| 2007/11/19-26 [Finance/Banking, Finance/CC] UID:48660 Activity:kinda low |
11/19 Prosper update. I am getting 13.3% on my loans there, but one of them
is now 45+ days lates. If that one is a write-off, as seems increasingly
likely, my ROI will be about 11% over my first year there. Not too
shabby, but we shall see how it goes as this credit crunch thing
plays out. Lately I have been getting better rates, but I suspect
the risk is higher, too.
\_ that is awesome. How much was your initial stake?
and what are your parameters for which ones you invest in?
\_ I am only taking AA, A and B rated borrowers who have a debt/
income ratio under 30%. My initial stake is just a couple
thousand, as I am just sort of checking it out for now.
\_ Who verifies this debt/income ratio?
\_ Prosper does.
\_ How?
\_ How are you getting more than a credit card loan?
\_ The magic of the market? The invisible hand at work? How
do you expect me to answer this question? This is what people
with reasonably good credit are willing to pay to borrow money.
Not AA credit, but B credit, with a low Debt/Income and home
owners to boot. I could get more, but then my default risk
would go up, too.
\_ Maybe people are willing to pay more on the bet that if they
default you are less likely to send them to collections?
\_ No, all defaulted debt is automatically sent to collections.
\_ No, all defaulted debt is automatically sent to
collections.
\_ How many loans have you made over that period?
\_ Around 50.
\_ I looked at prosper when it was first mentioned on the motd. I
wouldn't risk a penny on any of those people. I'm glad you've
made some bucks but your risk looks way higher than the interest
rates these people are paying. There's a very good reason they
can't get money from more traditional sources. |
| 2007/11/19 [Uncategorized] UID:48661 Activity:nil 80%like:48665 |
11/19 Nikkei 225 knives through 15,000 floor |
| 2007/11/19-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Finance/Investment] UID:48662 Activity:nil |
11/19 Are all charities "equivalent"? If I donate $100,000 to the
Metropolitan Opera House to encourage aspiring young musicians most
who will never make it in their lifetime, will I be more/less
impactful than donating $100,000 to help the poor in Africa?
\_ That depends on who you ask. A libertarian will say both are
equivalent as there's no moral judgements on people. A
socialist will think you're a total asshole. A capitalist
will point out that you're an idiot for not donating to
an organization that will somehow benefit you [in]directly.
\_ Is this a troll? If not, your best bang/buck on charity is
probably subsidizing childhood immunizations.
\_ unless you're against over-population
\_ When you find your humanity again, feel free to join the
rest of the human race.
\_ When you stop making assumptions about people because you
mis-interpreted a comment, feel free to join the rest of
literate adults.
\_ I'm too lazy to think about these issues. So when I want to donate,
I just donate to the American Red Cross, and then close my eyes and
let them do whatever they want with the money.
\_ What sort of impact do you want your donation to have? If you find
helping aspiring musicians more important than helping the poor in
Africa, then that is more impactful. As far as Africa goes, the
best thing the West can do for them is stop flooding the place with
freebies. How does anyone expect a local economy to grow in any
place that gets free throw aways of everything from the West? Who
would buy shoes from the local shoe maker when the US/UN/EU is
giving them away free down the street?
\- for an unbelievable story, see:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/24/national/24pickens.html
--psb |
| 2007/11/19-20 [Uncategorized] UID:48663 Activity:high |
11/19 I deleted all of my porn again. Stay strong, brothers!
- motd boob guy
\_ dammit, found my BACKUP of my porn. |
| 2007/11/19-21 [Uncategorized] UID:48664 Activity:moderate |
11/19 XP8BF F8HPF PY6BX K24PJ TWT6M
\_ Classy
\_ Out of curiosity, is this your personal item, or the key for
some company you really hate?
\_ obGoogle |
| 2007/11/19-21 [Uncategorized] UID:48665 Activity:nil 80%like:48661 |
11/19 Nikkei 225 knifes through 15,000 floor
\_ nevermind -op |