Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:September:27 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2007/9/27-10/2 [Computer/HW/Languages] UID:48196 Activity:nil
9/26    Has anyone had a head unit installed/replaced at Circuit City
        or Fry's? If so, would you recommend them for installation?
        Also, if there are better places than CC or Fry's in the South
        Bay, please let me know. tia.
2007/9/27-10/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48197 Activity:high
9/26    Another win for the Constitution and another blow to the Bush Admin:
        http://www.csua.org/u/jll (Yahoo News)
        \_ The Bush admin is dead.  Who cares?  Look to the future, don't
           dwell on the past.  Do you have any idea what the front runners in
           both parties are saying about this?
           \_ unfortuantely, Bush is not dead.  He is threating veto on the
              spending bill if it exceed its limit.  Rubber stamp Democrats
              for some reason doesn't want to put Iraq war spending as part of
              of the spending bill.  They should just cut the war funding
              completely if things are not going their way.
              \_ Bush is dead.  He vetos.  So what?  The Democrats are not
                 rubber stamps for the war.  The reason they keep funding it
                 is because they want us to stay there.  They should do a lot
                 of things but I don't put weight on what they should do, I
                 look at what they've actually done, which is fund the war to
                 every penny Bush has asked.  Anyway, none of this means
                 anything either way since the Democrats are doing nothing
                 different from what Bush has been doing.
                       \_ what is your proposal, then?  we have 70-100 Iraqi
                          civilians dies every day, ~4 million (out of total
                          of 20+ million) displaced internally and externally.
                          So, obviously we are not making this peaceful right
                          now.  My ears are all yours.
                          \_ What was unclear?  We leave Iraq.  Unfortunately
                             our leadership in the Congress is too pathetic
                             and cowardly to do what we put them there to
                             do.  Or more likely, I believe that *want* us
                             to stay there.  They aren't putting up *any*
                             sort of fight against Bush, an unpopular lame
                             duck President.  I can only conclude they want
                             us in Iraq.  They = Democrats, if that was
                             unclear.
                             \_ If you think the Dems are pathetic and cowardly
                                for not "putting up *any* sort of fight
                                against Bush," and are thus unworthy of office,
                                that must mean that you think the GOP are
                                murderous traitors who ought to be hanged, yes?
                                \_ Hanged?  No.  We don't hang politicians for
                                   failed policy.  Out of office?  Sure, of
                                   course.  That is the nature of our system.
                                   But I don't see the Dems saying they'll do
                                   anything substantially different if they
                                   have the executive office and they own both
                                   the house and senate and have done nothing.
                                   They aren't even very good at doing nothing.
                                   \_ Hyperbole aside, you've seen that the
                                      GOP are criminally negligent and corrupt.
                                      Surely even Do Nothing would be a better
                                      polict than the current polciy of
                                      screwing the American people over.
                 \_ The reason they keep funding it is because they're scared
                    of the punditry saying "they abandoned the troops in the
                    field."  This is of course bullshit, and they'll need to
                    find their voices and spines and change that meme.  But IMO
                    they are obliged now to cut off the funding.  There is no
                    other way for them to end it.  And until they get up the
                    courage to do so, more soldiers and civilians continue to
                    die.
                    \_ Whereas when the troops leave Iraq, it will instantly
                       become peaceful?  Pass me some of what you're smoking!
                       \_ what is your proposal, then?  we have 70-100 Iraqi
                             \_ some sort of "final solution?"
                          civilians dies every day, ~4 million (out of total
                          of 20+ million) displaced internally and externally.
                          So, obviously we are not making this peaceful right
                          now.  My ears are all yours.
                          \_ Stop cut n pasting.  Say something new or don't
                             bother posting.
                       \_ Oh, no, Iraqis will continue to see violence, and
                          that's on our heads.  But our troops leaving now
                          or 10 years from now won't change that.  I'm speaking
                          specifically of the US's cost in blood and treasure.
                          We need to attack the issue with other approaches.
                          It will be a long road as Bush has ignored all other
                          approaches, failing to lay any groundwork
                          diplomatcally/politically, but them's the breaks.
                          \_ There is no need if we TRY to spread diseases
                             like Cholera. The military should consider that
                             as a cheap and effective option.
                             \_ Or we could send in the CIA to spread crack.
                          \_ I love how casually you predict the next 10 years.
                             Here's another possibility.  In 10 years, Al
                             Qaeda has taken over Iraq, used the oil revenue to
                             get biological and nuclear weapons, and erased a
                             US city.  See, we can all play that game.
                             \_ That may be true but in 30 years they'll
                                be commercialized and embrace everything
                                Western just like Vietnam it is now.
                                \_ And at the cost of only one major US port
                                   city!  A good deal at twice the price!
                                   Maybe it'll be a smaller port city like
                                   San Francisco or Oakland....
                                   \_ I can live with that.
                                      \_ Lemme guess, you don't live anywhere
                                         near SF?
                             \_ Since Al Qaeda is very unpopular amongst the
                                Iraqi people, it is hard to imagine how they
                                could possibly "take over" Iraq. Try to
                                imagine something with a greater chance of
                                likelyhood, like Iran taking over Iraq.
                                \_ That is already happening.
                                \_ How popular was Saddam with the Iraqi
                                   people?
                                   \_ Are you saying that we are funding AQ?
                                   \_ SH was extremely popular with one tribe,
                                      one that represented about 20% of the
                                      Iraqi people. AQ has no such inherent
                                      power base. The Shi'ites hate them
                                      and the Sunni in Iraq have turned
                                      against them.
                                      \_ The Sunni aren't a tribe.  They're
                                         a religious branch of Islam.  Saddam's
                                         tribe was in Tikrit and the areas
                                         immediately around Tikrit.  I agree
                                         with the rest of what you said.
2007/9/27-10/2 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:48198 Activity:nil
9/27    What's a better laptop to get, Gateway, Dell, or Toshiba?
        \_ thinkpad
           \_ Are there still Thinkpads with butterfly keyboards?  I had one
              11yrs ago, and it was cool because the laptop body can be made
              smaller than the keyboard.
              \_ i would love to see those butterfly keyboards again.  too
                 bad that there won't be any butterfly keyboards anytime soon.
2007/9/27-10/2 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:48199 Activity:nil
9/27    Does anyone have experiences with OpenId and/or TypeKey as to
        minimize the effort spent on your web app authentication? How easy is
        it to integrate these 3rd party components into your web apps?
2007/9/27-10/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48200 Activity:high
9/27    After last night's debates, it looks like the leading candidates
        are all in favor of keeping the war going until the end of their
        first term.  I don't know who to vote for anymore.
        \_ Romney!
        \_ the reality is that Republicans are going to loose the election
           in 2008.  They are doing everything they can to drag the war until
           end of Bush's 2nd term.  When Democrat pull the troops, Republicans
           can righteously accusing Democrats "cut and run."
           \_ Oh please, do you have any idea what the Democrats are all
              saying?  They will *not* pull the troops.  That is the whole
              point.  There is no one to vote for!
              \_ I'm still throwing support to Biden, even though he has
                 no chance of being nominated.
                 \_ As long as a majority of people support the crummy media
                    created candidates because the better ones "don't stand
                    a chance" we'll get what we deserve.  I always vote for
                    who I want, not who I'm told I should be.  If more people
                    were like us we'd have better government.
              \_ If elected, "I would have combat troops out of Iraq in
                 about nine months," Edwards said. That seems pretty
                 unambiguous to me.
                 \_ Nope.  Go check his response in the most recent debate.
                    Here it is and I'll grant it is close but no cigar, esp.
                    the way he starts off in answer to "2013" as a target
                    date.  He gets an "A" for effort though as the one
                    closest to saying he'll actually end the war for real.

                        MR. RUSSERT: Senator Edwards, will you commit that at
                        the end of your first term, in 2013, all U.S. troops
                        will be out of Iraq?

                        MR. EDWARDS: I cannot make that commitment. I -- well,
                        I can tell you what I would do as president. If I --
                        when I'm sworn into office come January of 2009, if
                        there are in fact, as General Petraeus suggests,
                        100,000 American troops on the ground in Iraq, I will
                        immediately draw down 40 (thousand) to 50,000 troops
                        and, over the course of the next several months,
                        continue to bring our combat troops out of Iraq until
                        all of our combat troops are in fact out of Iraq.

                        I think the problem is, and it's what you've just
                        heard discussed, is, we will maintain an embassy in
                        Baghdad. That embassy has to be protected. We will
                        probably have humanitarian workers in Iraq. Those
                        humanitarian workers have to be protected. I think
                        somewhere in the neighborhood of a brigade of troops
                        will be necessary to accomplish that -- 3,500 to 5,000
                        troops.

                        But I do say -- I want to add to things I just heard.
                        I think that it's true that everyone up here wants to
                        take a responsible course to end the war in Iraq.
                        There are, however, differences between us, and those
                        differences need to be made aware. Good people have
                        differences about this issue. For example, I heard
                        Senator Clinton say on Sunday that she wants to
                        continue combat missions in Iraq. To me, that's a
                        continuation of the war. I do not think we should
                        continue combat missions in Iraq, and when I'm on a
                        stage with the Republican nominee come the fall of
                        2008, I'm going to make it clear that I'm for ending
                        the war. And the debate will be between a Democrat who
                        wants to bring the war to an end, get all American
                        combat troops out of Iraq, and a Republican who wants
                        to continue the war.
                        \_ Just like he said then, the choice will be between
                           a Republican who intends to continue the war and
                           a Democrat who intends to end it. I guess at that
                           point you can make your choice who to vote for.
                           That is assuming that he wins the nomination (a
                           big big unlikely assumption, I admit, but one
                           big unlikely assumption, I admit, but one
                           that should make you want to support his campaign
                           if you want to actually end the war).
                           \_ No, the choice will be between one party that
                              says they will stay there to continue the war
                              and the other party that kinda sorta say they'll
                              be there but like if maybe uhm eventually ya
                              know it is sorta hard and I don't like your tone
                              asking me all these hard theoretical questions
                              so please don't ask me anything until I'm
                              President party that will also continue the war.
                              \_ That will be true if Hillary wins the
                                 nomination, as is likely. I disagree with
                                 your interpretation of what Edwards said.
                                 \_ He was asked directly if he'd pledge to
                                    have them all out by 2013.  He said no.
                                    What is there to interpret?  I could have
                                    been a motd jerk and just gave you the
                                    first line but I gave the full quote.
                                    He won't promise to have them all out
                                    by *2013* which is *4* full years after
                                    he would take office.
                                    \_ He said he would pull 98% of them,
                                       which is good enough to me. I don't
                                       see why you want to leave the embassy
                                       unguarded. Do you think he should promise
                                       to pull the Marines from the Embassy
                                       walls as well?
                                       \_ Oh goodie then we can have another
                                          reenactment of the Iranian embassy
                                          take over because we left too small
                                          a contingent for the role they have
                                          been assigned protecting the embassy
                                          and the humanitarian workers all over
                                          the country in the middle of a huge
                                          civil war.  Brilliant.  More half-
                                          assed measures for the cameras.
                                          \_ The Iranian Embassy takeover was
                                             supported by the Islamic Rev. AQ
                                             in Iraq is not supported by
                                             Iraqis or the govt. Your example
                                             does not work.
                                             \_ Are you on the right thread?
                                                WTH are you talking about?
                                                This thread at this point was
                                                about how many troops Edwards
                                                would leave in Iraq and what
                                                mission they would have, such
                                                as protecting the US Emb from
                                                *any* hostiles.
                                                \_ Do you hold your breath
                                                   until you pass out and then
                                                   type randomly on the key-
                                                   board? You invoked the Iran
                                                   Embassy as though something
                                                   of that nature could take
                                                   place in a country that did
                                                   not explicity support such
                                                   actions. No matter how bad
                                                   Iraq gets, it will not be
                                                   that country. Stop fear-
                                                   mongering.
2007/9/27-10/2 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:48201 Activity:nil
9/27    Man, I love Hardboiled (free Berkeley APA newspaper), it's hilarious.
        The article in this old copy is great: "unmasking the emasculated asian
        male".  I love how she assumes that asian men had to learn racism, sexism,
        and domestic abuse from white guys. Ha!
        http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~hboiled/7-4.pdf
        \_ Lol many of the asian guyss I know are 2x as racist as the average
           white guy.
           \_ Hoyt Sze!  Where are you when we need you?
        \_ Uh, why the heck would anyone go back to 2004 to read something
           like this? I mean, like, are you bored or something?
           \_ I'm posting to the motd, what do you think?
2007/9/27-10/2 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Languages/Python] UID:48202 Activity:moderate
9/27    Ok so to do the equivalent of  the following:
        bool ? a : b
        In Python, it is:
        (bool and [a] or [b])[0]
        Uh, kick ass?
        \_ 99 times out of 100 if you use the trinary operator you are
           doing the wrong thing.
        \_ 99 times out of 100 if you use the ternary operator you are
           doing the wrong thing.  Oh and python should have
           "a if bool else b".
        \_ Python 2.5 adds the ternary operator with the syntax above.  See:
           http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0308
           The and-or trick was the most recognizable way to do this prior to
           2.5.  See:
           http://www.diveintopython.org/power_of_introspection/and_or.html
           This also explains why you need to do the wonkiness with wrapping a
           and b into arrays and then extracting element 0.  Curious, why does
           the pp feel that using the ternary operator is a bad idea? -dans
           \_ http://tinyurl.com/36zdbe (fogcreek.com) -!pp
              \_ Most of this discussion convinces me that the ternary
                 operator is a good thing.  Many of the posters seem to miss
                 the forest for the trees wrt code readability.  At this
                 point, I don't 'parse' the ternary operator, I just think of
                 it as a (slightly) higher-level construct and find it easier
                 to read and understand.  YMMV -dans
                 \_ bad coders : ternary operator :: Dubya : U.S. presidency
                    \_ bad coders : code :: Dubya : U.S. presidency
                       "However, there is already controversy surrounding the
                       grant. Explains Dean Clancy, "Ok, so we got all this
                       deodorant and shaving equipment now. So-fricking-what?
                       What I want to know is how we are going to get this
                       stuff on the engineers. Whenever I ask an engineer in
                       Soda, "Why do you smell like Rick Starr's underwear,
                       only worse?", they always give me some story about
                       being allergic to deodorant or not having enough time
                       to shower. Like I always say, you can lead a mouse to a
                       window but you can't always make the mouse click on the
                       window."
                       Telling bad coders to avoid the ternary operator is
                       like giving deodorant to EECS students.  It doesn't
                       address the core problem. -dans
                       \_ What about L&S CS?  Are they allowed to bathe?
                          \_ I'm not aware of there being any department
                             strictures forbidding EECS students to bathe.  I
                             don't know if I'm typical of L&S CS students, but
                             I managed to bathe more or less regularly (or
                             date hot women who have a thing for, possibly
                             stinky, geeks).  I suppose there was that one
                             semester Paolo took CS 150 and didn't leave the
                             lab for a week, but I definitely think that's an
                             outlier data point. -dans
                             \_ dans is channeling tjb.
                                \_ i miss tjb.  can we get him back?
                                   \_ Seconded.  The man's a national
                                      treasure.
                             \_ I think we can all agree that paolo is an outlier
                                data point.
                                \_ Nah, I'm not going to try to freestyle.
                                   Though I am pretty white. -dans
                             \_ I think we can all agree that paolo is an
                                outlier data point.
2007/9/27-10/2 [Uncategorized] UID:48203 Activity:nil
9/27    So the new website is up. Naturally it's not done, so we are prepared
        to face your derision, metal pots on our heads and wooden swords in
        hand. Please email vaheder with any suggestions, comments, and
        improvements. Danke.
        \_ larper!
2007/9/27-10/2 [Uncategorized] UID:48204 Activity:nil
9/27    So whatever happened with Sameer's effort to become one of the FEW
        and the PROUD?
        \_ they apparently don't take gnomes
           \_ GO GNOME OR GO HOME!  GNOMES ARE THE BEST WARRIOR RACE!
              \_ Pft.  Dwarves get +2 Con, -2 Cha, with no size penalty.
2007/9/27-10/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:48205 Activity:high
9/27    In response to the previous threads about rubber stamp Democrats.
        My point is not rather we should fund the war or not.  But rahter,
        if we going to fund it, fund it as part of regular budget process
        instead of going through all these supplement spending bills which
        doesn't have the same oversight as regular spending bill.  Further,
        I failed to understand why Democrat would take Bush's veto threat
        about domestic spending while this guy's military spending is going
        completely out of control.   Democrats should just say "fund the war
        via the regular spending bill, or not fund the war at all."
        \_ Ask Pelosi and Reid why they continue to fund it.  The American
           people put them in office for a reason.  They promised to end the
           war and clean up government.  Under their watch, the war has
           actually expanded by 30k troops and corruption is rampant across
           the board.  Oh yay, I so can't wait to vote for that bunch again.
           They've been so effective.
           \_ In what way is "corruption rampant"? Is there more or less
              corruption than with the Republican Congress?
              \_ Hello?  Earmarking the hell out of the budget?  Just like
                 Republicans, except the Democrats promised to cleanup.  So
                 we get corruption+hypocritics instead of 'mere' corruption.
                 There's a reason Congress's popularity rating as a whole is
                 at all time lows.  No one likes a liar (Iraq funding) or
                 a hypocrite (earmarking corruption).
                 \_ give some examples of corrupt earmarking.  earmarking is
                    not inherently corrupt.
                    \_ you're kidding, right?  DiFi's committee granting
                       nobids to her husband's company?  Pelosi granting
                       handouts to her family's companies?  Murtha, well damn,
                       just about anything Murtha has come near.  Look, be
                       serious.  You can't point a finger at the other party
                       and scream 'corruption!' when your own party is doing
                       the same crap.  Glass houses and all that.  If you
                       spent less time prowling for Republican corruption
                       and turned less of a blind eye towards Democratic
                       party corruptions, you'd see the hypocrisy and I for
                       one have had enough.  I will not support corrupt people
                       of either party even if they sometimes agree with me or
                       even vote the way I like most of the time.
                       \_ Please back up your claims.
                          \_ I did.  I'm not going to discuss this further
                             with someone so clearly wearing blinders.  You
                             would google for it yourself if you actually
                             cared and weren't suffering from severe self
                             inflicted blindness.
                             \_ No, you didn't.  You gave allegations.
                                \_ Whatever.  You don't want to know and
                                   wouldn't care if I put it under your
                                   nose.  Bored now.  Bye.
                                   \_ "And I'm taking my ball and going home!"
                                      \_ No, just bored and not looking to get
                                         trolled today.  I gave you more than
                                         enough info to google it if you
                                         cared to know.  You don't.  Story
                                         over.
                                      \_ Wow, fools do mock! -!pp
                                         \_ Your contribution: zero. oktnx
                       \_ You do know that the current Congress has 1/10th
                          as many earmarks in the budget than the GOP Congress
                          immediately preceeding it, right?
                          \_ When it is zero, lemme know.  "Woot!  The one
                             party is not quite as corrupt (yet) as the other
                             party!  Yay for such heroism in government!"
                             \_ Good luck on holding out for your utopian
                                society. Are you going to hold your breath
                                until you get it? Not everyone even is able
                                to agree on what "corruption" in government
                                is, so you will never find one without any.
                                As a previoius poster noted, sometimes there
                                are legitimate uses for an earmark.
                                \_ Name a legitimate use for an earmark.  I'm
                                   not certain you even understand what an
                                   earmark is.  An earmark is a politician
                                   sticking something into a bill to give
                                   money to some local cronies in their
                                   district which usually has nothing at all
                                   to do with the bill.  The bill in question
                                   is typically one of many "must be passed"
                                   pieces of legislation so no one will vote
                                   against it even though it is loaded with
                                   pork.  If the allocation of money was
                                   legitimate it would have it's own bill.
                                   Earmarking = corruption.  Unless you
                                   already hold office or are the recipient
                                   of said funds.
                                   \_ Earmarks can be legitimately used to
                                      fund specific projects.  Don't be
                                      obtuse.  -tom
                                      \_ Name a legitimate earmark.  Just one.
                                         A specific project can and should get
                                         a specific bill, or be part of a
                                         larger related budget.  I expect the
                                         military budget to include funding
                                         for specific weapons and bases.  I do
                                         not expect it to include bridges to
                                         no where, funding for DiFi and Pelosi
                                         family and friends, or anything not
                                         related to the military.  Either you
                                         don't know what an earmark is or
                                         you're being a total idiot
                                         intentionally.  Either way, no one
                                         has posted a single earmarked item
                                         that is legit.  Given how many
                                         billions of dollars in earmarks go
                                         out in each budget, you should be
                                         able to name one legitimate earmark,
                                         if there were any.  There are not.
                                         \_ Here is $1B worth of earmarks
                                            to improve the CA freeway system.
                                            Are you going to claim that all of
                                            them are unneeded?
                                            link:www.csua.org/u/jma
                                            \_ privatized freeway systems
                                               are cost effective and
                                               better utilized.
                                               \_ Better utilized? Wtf does
                                                  that even mean?
                                               \_ So your claim that these
                                                  earmarks are corrupt is
                                                  based on the idea that
                                                  freeways should all be
                                                  tollways??! Hoo-kay, please
                                                  sign your posts with the
                                                  moniker "Libertarian Troll"
                                                  next time, so I will know
                                                  not to waste my time
                                                  researching a reply.
                                            \_ You're kidding right?  Of course
                                               a transportation bill has money
                                               for transportation projects.
                                               Why do you even bother?  I don't
                                               get it.  Do you think no one
                                               will fact check your links? I
                                               specifically said they're
                                               filling the budget with money
                                               for local projects unrelated
                                               to the bill they're attached
                                               to.  Transport money in a
                                               transport bill is not what I
                                               was talking about and you knew
                                               that.
                                               \_ The transportation bill is
                                                  one of the appropriations
                                                  bills that make up the
                                                  "budget".  It is you who do
                                                  not know of what you speak.
                                                  He pointed to a "budget" bill
                                                  with "earmarks" which you
                                                  admit are "valid".  You are
                                                  clearly too short for this
                                                  ride. --scotsman
                                                  \_ I was quite specific about
                                                     this.  If you choose not
                                                     to read it and instead
                                                     pick and choose single
                                                     words out of context to
                                                     'feel big', then do so
                                                     but don't think you've
                                                     actually proven anything.
                                                     \_ You have repeatedly
                                                        mistaken "earmarks" for
                                                        "pork".  When called on
                                                        it, you got all
                                                        defensive and claimed
                                                        that everyone else is
                                                        an idiot.  To earmark
                                                        is to set aside monies
                                                        for a specific project.
                                                        Tom's phraseology is
                                                        right.  Yours is wrong.
                                                        Also, you mentioned
                                                        the "Bridge to Nowhere".
                                                        I assume you meant
                                                        Stevens' $200M joke.
                                                        What bill do you think
                                                        that was to be in?
                                                        Hint: it wasn't in
                                                        Defense.
                                                        --scotsman
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:September:27 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>