Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:September:04 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2007/9/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:47881 Activity:kinda low
9/3     "We invaded a sovereign nation based on a lie."
        http://www.csua.org/u/jfo
        \_ BS.  Go back to your cage Michael Moore.
           \_ You're kind of reaching the bottom of the barrel when
              you don't really need to, to get that kind of quote from
              the web, I don't think that was the main point of the
              article.  I think you can find plenty of Republicans
              now who would agree that we invaded Iraq for unknown
              or disengenous reasons.
              \_ Lie != Intelligence Failure
                 \_ At what point does a willful ignorance and denial of
                    fact cease to be the fault of the intel provider and
                    become the fault of the intel receiver? And then at what
                    point does the refusal to accept fact then become a lie?
                    \_ If you don't find out the intel is wrong until after
                       you've invaded then it isn't a lie that caused you
                       to go in.  It was ignorance.  So to answer your
                       question in this context: never.
                       \_ Okay, now what if you tell your intel people that
                          you only want intel that backs up your premise? At
                          what point does willful, active ignorance like that
                          become lying?
        \_ There was a recent Tom Tomorrow comic where he had a dream
           that everyone, from the bush admin to the press to the pundits
           to the entire staff of the Weekly Standard realized they had
           made a terrible mistake and dedicated their lives to living
           the rest of their life in exile, obscurity, and penance.  That's
           exactly what I want.
           \_ "My party is Good, the other party is Evil", as seen on Dailykos,
              freerepublic, democratic underground, etc, etc.
              \_ Oh, no, it wouldn't break my heart if everyone who voted to
                 authorize went into exile, etc.
              \_ Like it or not, the War On Terror has been branded as
                 Republican thing.  Good job branding there guys!
                 You can make a pretty strong case that all of the think
                 tanks and pundits and elected officials pushing the Iraq
                 invasion were Republican.  I think pointing out that
                 plenty of Democrats voted to authorize invading is
                 a moot point.  Bush would have figured out a way to invade
                 democrats or no democrats.
        \_ BS.  Go back to your cage Michael Moo    yet?"
                    \_ did you shower between couplings aspo
                     \_ Not as a rule no.
        \_ Does his wife have camel toe?  I just found out yesterday that my
           sister-in-law does.
        \_ Maybe something about having two humps?
              \_ So you still think invading Iraq was a good choice?
2007/9/4-6 [Computer/Rants] UID:47882 Activity:moderate
9/4     Happy Labor Day! Thank you, Labor, for weekends, mandatory breaks,
        and a generally un-serf-like workplace.
        \_ There are a few books coming out about how horrible the
           New Deal was for America.  I love it.
           New Deal was for America.
           \_ There are also books out about how much the Jews control
              the world.
              \_ The revisionist New Deal books are by the The Wall Street
                 Journal editorial page crowd.  Did you read today's
                 Pat Buchanan column?  He managed to blame the Jews
                 for everything at the end.
                 \_ ZOG!
                 \_ I am embarassed to admit, this comment got me to track
                    down Pat Buchanan's latest column and read it. There
                    is no mention of Jews or Isreal anywhere. I am not
                    about to read every one of his missives. URL?
                    \_ i exagerate a bit but not much.  grep for
                       "israeli lobby".
2007/9/4-5 [Recreation/Dating] UID:47883 Activity:very high
9/4     An acquaintance of mine said: "My wife is a sex camel." I'm sure
        this is anomalous, because the MOTD told me women love to have
        sex all the time.
        \_ you're an idiot.
        \_ Are camels known for having a lot of sex?  I'm confused.
        \_ Does your wife have camel toe?
        \_ Does your wife have camel toe?  I just found out yesterday that my
           \_ Camel:water::Wife:sex
              \_ I get it now.  Thanks.
              \_ So... his wife goes long periods of time without sex but then
                 shags him to the point of exhaustion?
                 \_ I've dated women like that.  2 weeks of no sex followed
                    by two weeks where "my god woman are you satisfied yet?"
                    by two weeks where "my god woman are you satisfied
                    yet?"
                    \_ did you shower between couplings aspo
                     \_ Not as a rule no.
        \_ Does his wife have camel toe?  I just found out yesterday that my
           sister-in-law does.
        \_ Maybe something about having two humps?
        \_ No, I don't think anyone on the MOTD ever said that. You are
           trolling with a strawman argument.
           \_ I mentioned that woman, as a general rule, don't like sex.
              The counterargument is obviously that they do, despite so
              much evidence to the contrary.
              \_ Horse hockey. The counterargument is that women, as a general
                 rule, don't like sex with you.
                 \_ My acquaintance's wife doesn't like sex with him either.
                    \_ Birds of a feather fuck together?
                       I've had one girlfriend whose cravings didn't meet
                       mine.  She'd had an abusive ex-husband which made sex
                       a touchy thing.  All my other girlfriends have had
                       very healthy sex drives, and very much enjoyed sex
                       with me.  I pity you and your acquaintance.
                       \_ How long did you have these 'girlfriends' for?
              \_ No, you or someone else on the same theme, said that no
                 women enjoy sex. The counterargument was that some women
                 do in fact enjoy sex.
                 \_ Yes. Strippers, druggies, and sexually abused women.
                    \_ No, healthy, self-confident women.
                       \_ Uh huh. At the beginning of a relationship.
2007/9/4 [Uncategorized] UID:47884 Activity:low 66%like:47880
8/31    Hulk smash!
        http://xrl.us/5k6p
2007/9/4-5 [Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:47885 Activity:nil
9/4     Is it my imagination or it seems like Picasaweb and Gmail and
        other shit products are getting slower and slower? It takes like
        10 seconds to refresh the images on Picasaweb and 5 seconds to
        go through the emails. It used to be almost instantaneous. What
        is going on? If this is not fixed I'm going back to Yahoo Mail.
        \_ I do not notice this in Gmail, and I bet I have moessages
           than you do.  Who the hell uses Picasa?  Feel free to go back
           to Yahoo Mail, the interface is terrible.
        \_ Both gmail and yahoo have been slow lately.
2007/9/4 [Uncategorized] UID:47886 Activity:nil
9/4     It's weird being back from burning man. I had a really profound and
        meaningful time there, and I would write about it but it was like
        being transported to another dimension of space and time and you
        wouldn't be able to understand it without having been there. It was
        like a religious experience. I am gay now.
        \_ Did you get your period?
2007/9/4-5 [Uncategorized] UID:47887 Activity:low
9/4     "You must be my lucky star!  Starlight, starbright, first star I
        see tonight."
        Does that mean she's looking for promiscuous sex?
        \_ It's a Madonna song.  She's never really had to 'look' for it,
           just pick from among her own dance troupe.
2007/9/4-5 [Health/Men] UID:47888 Activity:nil
9/4     the spammers say my penis is too small or that my shaft
        is too big for my girlfriend's mouth.  i wish they'd make
        up their mind.
        \_ I don't see any reason it can't be both.
        \_ You got a spam trying to sell you a product to increase the
           size of her mouth or shrink your penis?
2007/9/4-5 [Uncategorized] UID:47889 Activity:nil
9/4     Why did you delete my personal, profound summary of my time
        at Burning Man?
        http://jameth.livejournal.com/3347563.html
2007/9/4-7 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:47890 Activity:nil
9/4     "NOAA blames hot MILFs on greenhouse gases"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070829/ap_on_sc/greenhouse_warming_6
        \_ Good
        \_ Good for NOAA
        \_ Why do they continue to ignore solar activity?
           http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4
           http://csua.org/u/jfv
           \_ they don't.
2007/9/4-7 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:47891 Activity:nil
9/4     http://csua.org/u/jfs (townhall.com, why hide your url?)
        This was all before politicians gave us the idea that the things we
        could not afford individually we could somehow afford collectively
        through the magic of government.
        \_ it was also before it was empirically proven that the unregulated
                                                                   \_ umm. no.
           health care system in the U.S. is twice as expensive as everyone
           else's.
           \_ Everyone else's healthcare is great until you get sick.
2007/9/4-5 [Reference/Religion] UID:47892 Activity:nil
9/4     haven't had a good Mormon troll-off in a while.  Lemme fix
        that:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6972862.stm
        \_ Wow, that's some pretty bad fact-checking.  Let me highlight an
           easily-checked fact they got wrong:
           "The heretics, in their view, are the five million members of the
           mainstream church."
           Actual membership in the LDS church as of April 2007:
           12,868,606
           http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-690-3,00.html
           \_ "He's harmless! Back in the sixties he was part of the Free
               Speech movement at Berkeley. I think he did a little too much
               LDS"
2007/9/4-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47893 Activity:low
9/4     Do you think one of the 7 out of 11 Iraq war surge benchmarks
        they met is 'end all violence' or 'restore 100 percent power' ?
        \_ it make sense.  afterall, we demand PLO to "end all violence"
           and insist that since there are still attacks in Israel,
           PLO most of sanctioned it.  According to that logic, we sanctioned
           all these violence in Iraq too.  :)
        \_ "The Iraqi government is "dysfunctional" and has met only three
           of the 18 benchmarks laid out by Congress for gauging its efforts
           on political reconciliation, according to a new independent report
           on Iraq by the Government Accountability Office." How do you get
           7 out of 11 from that?
           \_ Bush-math: count the 4 that have been partially met, even if
              only 1% of criteria have been met. Kind of like how calling cards
              count minutes used.
              \_ even then it's 7 out of 18.  -tom
                 \_ "I cannot let this go by, the old-style Washington
                     politics, trying to scare you with phony numbers." -GWB
        \_ Does anyone even know what those benchmarks are and if they are
           meaningful anymore given the current situation?
2007/9/4-6 [Science] UID:47894 Activity:nil
9/4     kchang are you using advanced internal Google api technology
        to crawl the motd?
        \_ Dear anon coward, I have no idea what you're talking about  -kchang
           \_ I assume you must be leveraging the vast tech you have
              at your disposal, to better your motd classifying.
              at your disposal, to improve your motd classifying.
              \_ It is my belief that any reference to proprietary
                 technology requires all parties to sign NDAs          -kchang
2007/9/4-5 [Recreation/Dating] UID:47895 Activity:very high
9/4     8am.  All clean.  Teeth brushed.  Clean underwear.  No more porn
        HOW LONG WILL I LAST?  Bets?
        \_ Do you mean no more porn physically or no more porn in your mind?
           For me, if it's the latter, it'd be 2-3 minutes.
           \_ HAVE RESISTED ALL DAY!   ok fine i thought of jsl's
              gigantic firm milk filled heaving straining triple G
              taught breasts for 2 minutes.
              \_ What exactly were her breasts taught?
              \_ Sorry, jsl's full name please?
              \_ jsl's pics please?
              \_ 7AM and I AM STILL RESISTING.  thanks jsl!
              \_ jsl can you eat a few more cheeseburgers like
                 this girl? http://xrl.us/5nhe ok thx.
        \_ I wouldn't give the clean underwear till noon.
2007/9/4-7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:47896 Activity:very high
9/4     "Annual job growth has definitely not reached pre-recession levels in
        1990s. In California, 200,000 jobs were added last year compared to
        400,000 (annually) between 1997 and 2000. In the United States, we're
        still nowhere where we were in annual job additions as a whole." The
        200,000 increase was unable to keep up with the state's increasing
        population, with unemployment jumping to 5.2 percent in the last 12
        months from 4.9 percent the previous year.  The same holds true for
        wages. While earnings rose by 0.4 percent between 2006 and 2007
        nationwide, the biggest increase in five years, in California real
        wages fell by 0.8 percent. Statewide, wages are 1 percent lower in 2007
        than in 2003.
          -Arindrajit Dube, UC Berkeley Center for Labor Research and Education
        \_ You mean the economy of the 90s that was based on nothing, like
           http://pets.com?  And "jumped" to 5.2%?  I thought that was theoretically
           full employment.  Or are we supposed to ignore the unemployment rate
           only when it's going down?
           \_ From poking around http://www.bls.gov/lau (regional
              resources there on the right) it looks like unemplyment
              is due for a serious upswing soon.  One thing to note
              about those graphs, if you look at the cycles they have
              they are pretty cyclical, but the unemployment percentages
              have been trending down over the years.  That's because
              politicians have had a strong intrest in redefining unemployment
              so that the numbers come out lower.  In the 70s it was a hell
              of a lot easier to be classified as unemployed than it is now.
              \_ Screw your predictions.  Let us know when it actually happens.
               \_ http://tinyurl.com/3asgnu
                  Tell me that doesn't look like the start of a big jump.
                  \_ Oh good grief. You can't extrapolate 100 data points from
                     3 (numbers pulled out of my ass).
                     \_ I'm not saying it is a sure thing, but I'd bet even
                        money on it.  In a heartbeat.
                        \_ This bet is looking better and better:
                           http://www.csua.org/u/jgl
           \_ I read this morning that for the first time since 2001, Japan
              and a few EU countries might have exceeded US GDP growth.  So
              clearly the non-US countries have the right economic plans in
              place.  It just took 6+ years to see the positive results.
              \_ Japan's GDP growth has a lot to do with trade surplus against
                 China.  And China can only afford such trade plus because
                 *ITS* trade surplus against USA.  So, in that regard,
                 you should give yourself a bit more credit.  Now, please
                 go ahead take out another equity loans for the sake of global
                 economy growth.
              \_ Umm.. I don't think that follows, exactly.
                 \_ This. Is. MOTD!!  Where non sequitur rules!
               \_ What has GDP/capita growth been like in those countries?
                  Who really cares if the nations overall GDP has gone up
                  if all that has just been due to population growth? Most of
                  Europe has beaten US GDP/capita growth for about three
                  years. And even Japan is starting to beat us now.
            \_ 5.2% is a cooked figure that does not include all the out
               of work illegals. According to The Economist, if we used
               the pre-Clinton way of counting unemployment, it would
               be about 1.5% higher. Most economists these days discount
               the idea of "full employment" after the decade long period
               of 4% unemployment and low inflation in the 90s. How man
               people do you think actually worked at http://pets.com and other
               <DEAD>dot.com<DEAD>s? It was a pretty small part of the economy.
               \_ Pre-Clinton?  You mean Bush/Reagan?  6.7% is still lower
               \_ Pre-Clinton?  You mean Bush/R      \_ Pre-Clinton?  You mean B\
ush/Reagan?  6.7% is still lower
                  than anywhere in Europe yet their economies and health plans
                  are stronger than here so we should be emulating their
                  success.
                  \_ No, there are many countries in Europe with an
                     unemployment rate less than 6.7 or even 5.2. Try
                     Ireland, The Netherlands and Switzerland, to start.
                     And it was Clinton who really started fudging the
                     numbers, not Reagan.
                     \_ Those are not big economies.  My village of 12 people
                        has a 0% jobless rate.  And I don't know about the
                        other two but Ireland is hardly known for their high
                        productivity, hard work, and strong work ethic.  Take
                        a look at real countries like Germany and France.
                        \_ What benefit do hard work and a strong work ethic
                           bring to the citizens of a country?  Other than
                           more work.  -tom
                           \_ Prosperity.  Or we could all just live off the
                              government dole with magically created food,
                              housing, and other products.  Where do you come
                              up with this stuff?  Is there some web site
                              where I can just pre-read all this bizareness?
                              \_ The countries in western Europe are plenty
                                 prosperous.  And they're more productive
                                 than the U.S. on a per-hour-worked basis. -tom
                                 \_ http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/business/worldbusiness/04output.html?ref=business
                                        -- ilyas
                                 \_ hi ilyas my elisp killed your url.
                                    sorry.
                                    \_ So you have the 5 seconds to apologize
                                       but not 5 seconds to put the url back?
                                       It's this btw:
                                       http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/business/worldbusiness/04output.html
                                       ERROR: Moved Temporarily
                                       If your scripts are broken don't use
                                       them.  -- ilyas
                                       \_ my url shorterner really hates
                                          that url.  very very odd.
                                 \_ Not only are you wrong about current
                                    productivity but western europe's socialist
                                    system is headed towards complete collapse
                                    as the number of workers per slacker has
                                    dropped dramatically in the last few
                                    decades.  But nevermind all those pesky
                                    facts.  The government will just raise
                                    someone else's taxes and magically provide
                                    the rest of us with all we need from cradle
                                    to grave.
                                    \_ Usenet libertarians have been predicting
                                       the imminent collapse of "socialist
                                       Europe" since at least 1989. Since
                                       then, if anything, they have been
                                       catching up to the US.
                                       \_ Catching up in what way? Europe
                                          will collapse before the US
                                          does. They have already started
                                          cutting services.
                                          \_ Median GDP per person as a
                                             percentage of the US median GDP.
                                             How would you measure "catching
                                             up"?
                                             \_ I didn't see what you were
                                                getting at. I don't think
                                                median GDP per person is
                                                useful in this sense. What
                                                is important is to look at
                                                outlays versus expenditures,
                                                especially commitments
                                                that have been made. If
                                                GDP doubles, but outlays
                                                will triple then Europe
                                                will still go broke.
                                                \_ If their economy is growing
                                                   faster than ours, it is
                                                   pretty hard to make the
                                                   case that it is collapsing.
                                                   No one (no one who is
                                                   intellectually serious at
                                                   least) believes that govt
                                                   outlays will exceed the
                                                   size of the economy.
                                                   \_ Of course not, because
                                                      they will be cut before
                                                      then as is already
                                                      happening. When
                                                      those outlays shrink
                                                      then, surprise!,
                                                      socialism becomes
                                                      strikingly similar
                                                      to what we have in
                                                      the US currently. It
                                                      is impossible to
                                                      continue with the
                                                      current European model.
                                                      You should look at
                                                      "profit" as defined
                                                      by GDP growth minus
                                                      growth of outlays at
                                                      the current level of
                                                      benefits. I am betting
                                                      this is a negative number.
                                                      \_ Not a chance that this
                                                         is a negative number
                                                         since 1989.
                                                         \_ What makes you
                                                            say this?  France's
                                                            2% GDP growth?
                                                            This chart doesn't
                                                            show what I'd like,
                                                            but it still shows
                                                            that France is
                                                            borrowing heavily:
                                                            http://tinyurl.com/23d4ny
                                                            ERROR: Don't shorten\
 urls from other shortening services
                                                            BTW, the unfunded
                                                            SS liability in
                                                            France is 2x that
                                                            of the USA.
                Yes, that chart doesn't show what you'd like_/
                In fact, it shows the exact opposite of what
                you'd like. It shows that public deficit
                peaked at 5.9% in 1993 and since then has
                more or less steadily been going down to
                the current level of 2.5%. Unless taxes
                have been going up (hint: they have not)
                the "growth of outlays" as you put it
                has been negative. So GDP (per capita,
                because that is what really matters)
                minus growth of outlays (which has been
                negative) is quite strongly positive.
                How do I know this? Because I pay
                attention to stuff like this, that's
                why. The government's expenditures as
                a percentage of the total economy has
                been trending down for a while in Europe,
                which is the exact opposite of your
                thesis.
                http://qsi.cc/blog/pictures/GovConsShareofGDP.gif
                link:xrl.us/5puc
                \_ France reformed its SS system, so that could be why
                   expenditures have been less. It could be because they
                   cut other programs like defense. We don't know from
                   this data. However, cuts will continue to happen. If you
                   look at your own chart you will see that expenditure
                   is flat from 1991 to 2002 (slightly higher for France,
                   actually). As for the chart I showed, that is the
                   deficit each year. The country is in the red every
                   year. How many years can that continue? Sure, they are
                   better off now than in 1993, but essentially flat since
                   1990. In fact, the deficit exceeded that of 1990 in
                   15 of 18 years. When a country runs a deficit every
                   year that means the current model is not sustainable.
                   I have an aunt and many cousins in France and two aunts
                   and a cousin in Holland and they all say that the level
                   of government services that they had in the 1970s and
                   1980s does not exist anymore. They blame the influx of
                   immigrants from Africa and the Middle East. Regardless
                   of who is to blame, the socialist utopia is breaking
                   down and I think it will ultimately erode almost to the
                   point of the US system. It is ironic that so many in
                   the US wish to emulate them when their governments are
                   trying to emulate us (though it is a hard sell to
                   people used to being on the dole). My Dutch cousin, a
                   teacher by trade but an artist and author in an ideal
                   world, was made to go back to work for the first time
                   in her life (she's 45). She had worked when she wanted
                   and took time off (paid for the government, of course)
                   to do art and write when she wanted. Needless to say,
                   she eventually didn't bother teaching at all. Why would
                   you when you get checks and an apartment for nothing?
                   Well, the government finally (after the last reform)
                   told her they needed teachers, she wasn't injured and
                   to get her butt back to work. The horror! Oh she was so
                   mad! It's just another sign that things are not how
                   they used to be and I think that is good for the
                   Europeans, many of whom had gotten lazy.
                   \_ The plural of anecdote is not data. What other
                      major economic power has run a budget deficit every
                      single year (except one) for the last 20 years? Hint:
                      you don't have to look too far to find it. The EU has
                      huge efficiencies that that US does not, which I will
                      not bother trying to explain to you, since your mind
                      is already made up, in the abscence of any factual
                      information whatsover. In any case, my prediction is
                      that the US and EU economies will converge, and that
                      neither one will "collapse", which is your prediction.
                      Let's watch and see who is correct, shall we?
                      \_ The EU will collapse *unless they change what
                         they are doing*. If they converge with the US
                         then of course they won't collapse. However,
                         that's not status quo now is it? The US is
                         running debts because of defense spending and not
                         because of social programs. I have anecdotal
                         evidence *and* data. You don't have either. have
                         you ever been to Europe? Do you know anything
                         about it?
                         \_ Yes, I have been to Europe, many times. You
                            predicted the complete and inevitable collapse
                            of the EU economy. Nice to see that you are
                            backpeddling now in the face of evidence. The
                            only data you presented not only didn't support
                            your case, it argued against it. And why is
                            deficit spending due to defense spending any
                            more likely to improve an economy than any other?
                            The best kind of deficit spending is probably
                            on infrastructure improvement and education, not
                            on blowing up people in Iraq.
                            \_ Uh, no. My chart does not argue against my
                               point. France is running a deficit every
                               year and 15 of the last 18 years it
                               has run deficits larger than it did in 1990
                               so clearly it is digging itself a hole with
                               current policy. I never said that defense
                               spending is "better" only that we are
                               talking about social programs. The US will
                               not spend itself to death because of social
                               programs unless Hilary does something stupid.
                               France, on the other hand, will do so
                               unless they change their system. It's a lot
                               easier to cut defense spending than to tell
                               several generations of people to expect less
                               because their expectations of housing and
                               health care were unrealistic. BTW, I
                               predict that EU will collapse *if they
                               continue doing what they are doing*. They
                               can always alter the course. I would never
                               argue against that. It's not backpeddling.
                               I would lump in Japan, too.
                                       \_ As stated, the EU continues to make
                                          more non-working people than working
                                          people.  If you can explain how that
                                          trend can continue without leading
                                          to inevitable collapse I'd love to
                                          hear it.  If you can explain what
                                          will stop that trend, instead, that
                                          would be nice too.  Until you can do
                                          so, smearing people with some silly
                                          'usenet libertarian' label and
                                          changing what was said into a straw
                                          man.
                                          \_ "European socialist" is not a
                                             straw man, but "usenet libertarian"
                                             straw man, but "usenet
                                             libertarian"
                                             is? How about this one then? You
                                             are a crackpot.
                                             libertarian" is? How about
                                             this one then? You are a crackpot.
                                             \_ They proudly call themselves
                                                that.  It is not an insult to
                                                call them socialists.  Now then
                                                anytime you'd like to answer my
                                                trendline questions, feel free.
                        \_ Did you say "anywhere in Europe" or not? And those
                           are just the ones I knew of off the top of my head,
                           I am sure there are others. But yes, the big
                           countries in Europe all have high unemployment,
                           with the exception of the UK, if that is Europe.
                           And you obviously don't know about the "Irish
                           miracle." It is one of the fastest growing
                           economies in Europe.
                           \_ Based on freakishly low, nearly illegal levels of
                              business taxes designed to drain their neighbor's
                              economies.  Miracle indeed.
                              \_ Can you explain for us not economically
                                 enabled how you can drain your neighbor's
                                 economies by doing something in your own
                                 country?
                              \_ "illegal levels"? lol
                               \_ If you have free trade and work agreements
                                  with other countries those may very well
                                  have rules to stop just this kind of
                                  abuse.  Treaties with other nations
                                  work like laws, the penalties for breaking
                                  them are just different than if you get
                                  caught going 150 mph with 5 kilos of
                                  blow and trunkload of dead hookers.
                                \_ Low business taxes are not an abuse. Why
                                   must there be any business taxes? A
                                   business is not a person. It's redundant
                                   with other forms of taxes. It's the
                                   argument of idiots that we should "tax
                                   the rich greedy corporations" as if they
                                   are magical beings independent of their
                                   employees, customers, and shareholders.
                                   \_ Because then everyone who can afford
                                      to incorperates, and has a magic
                                      bussiness that buys them what they
                                      need and it is a huge loophole.  But
                                      mostly because taxes are not a one
                                      time thing.  The same money gets
                                      taxed over and over again, goes
                                      into the government who spends it
                                      and guess what, gets taxed AGAIN.
                                      It's not a simple system and any
                                      attempt to claim that taxes should
                                      only happen at one place because
                                      anything else is double taxation or
                                      whatever bullshit is the ravings
                                      of a moronic libritarian utopian.
                                      \_ No, it is the ravings of a perfectly
                                         intellegent and self-serving wealthy
                                         person who is trying to shift their
                                         tax burden to someone else.
                                         \_ "intellegent"? stupid fuck.
                                            \_ spelling flames: the last
                                               refuge of he who has lost
                                               his argument
                                                \_ I saw no argument, merely
                                                   an idiotic assertion.
                                      \_ Incorporating isn't that expensive.
                                         You file some paperwork, it costs a
                                         few bucks well within reach of anyone
                                         with income to be taxed.
                                      \_ A magic business buying everything
                                         someone needs is illegal. You can't
                                         write off everything unless you
                                         are committing fraud. I didn't
                                         say tax should happen at one place
                                         because of double taxation. I just
                                         say that business taxes result are
                                         say that business taxes are
                                         ultimately paid by people. And
                                         your argument is fucking stupid:
                                         "mostly because taxes are not a
                                         one time thing". Uh, stupid?
                                         one time thing". That's not even
                                         an argument. "You need business
                                         taxes because taxes are not a
                                         one time thing." ???
                                         Libertarianism is a worthy goal
                                         where it works. We should avoid
                                         something because it is "libertarian"?
                                         Yes control is good for its own
                                         sake. Totalitarian fuckwad.
                                         \_ Libertarianism is a great
                                            thing in your magic utopian
                                            world where it works worth a
                                            damn.  Then again so is
                                            communism.  And benevolent
                                            fascism.  Sadly, we don't live
                                            in any of those worlds.
                                          \_ Only in your pessimistic
                                             communist world is Liberty itself
                                             and impossible ideal.
                                             \_ And you want to flame others
                                                for their spelling? Oy vey.
                        \_ Yeah, those lazy Irish can't do crap.  Eatin'
                           potatoes and drinking beer all the time.
                           \_ Not so much on the potatoes anymore but
                              otherwise just about right, yeah.
2017/11/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/18   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:September:04 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>