Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:August:21 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ
http://csua.com/feed/
2007/8/21-23 [Politics/Domestic/California, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:47678 Activity:nil
8/21    "Arctic sea ice shrinks to record low"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070817/ap_on_sc/low_ice
        And it's not even the end of summer yet.
        \_ I was reading about how the snow pack is pretty low in the
           Sequoia mountain range  in CA, exposing more corpses from plane
           crashes in WW2.  pretty cool.
        \_ Because the ice has always been there.
           \_ Huh?
2007/8/21-23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:47679 Activity:low
8/21    Wow, all I can say is "fugly"!
        http://jalopnik.com/cars/new-cars/2008-honda-accord-revealed-291565.php
        \_ Interesting. The Accord and Camry did a flip-flop. It used to
           be the case that the Accord appealed to the younger crow. The
           new Camry has an aggressive style to appeal to the younger
           generation while pushing older crowd to their Lexus lines,
           while the new Accord has gotten a much more mature look.
           Interesting.
           \_ It seems to me that for more than a decade, Camry's look has
              always been following the Lexus sedan's look from one or two
              model year earlier.
        \_ V-6 6-sp manual coupe gets 16/25mpg.  Gee, this is worse than my
           2004 Toyota Sienna 8-passsenger van!
        \_ As usual the couple looks much better than the sedan.
        \_ Will people think I am gay if I buy a mini? -- ilyas
           \_ Mark Wahlberg drove one in The Italian Job, and he played John
              Holmes in Boogie nights.
2007/8/21-22 [Politics/Domestic, Politics] UID:47680 Activity:low
8/21    "Poll: White youths happier than others"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070821/ap_en_ot/youth_poll_race_4
        "Sex: Sixty percent of white youths are happy with their sex lives,
        compared with 46 percent of minorities. Both groups are about equal on
        the sexual activity scale."
        Why?  Because the white guys get all the H01 4ZN CH1X!  Damn it!
        (Never mind the white gals who responded in the survey.)
        \_ white people happier than non white people?  woah.
           \_ The article addresses youths only.  "Carpenter, one of the
              survey participants, spoke for the majority of minority youths
              who feel their race will not cause problems later in life."
        \_ it's annoying that the article doesn't give number for asians.
2007/8/21-23 [Recreation/Dating, Recreation/Humor] UID:47681 Activity:nil
8/20    I love R Kelly
        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/arts/music/20trap.html
2007/8/21-23 [Recreation/Dating, Health] UID:47682 Activity:low
8/20    I'm never getting laid again. - below-poster
        \_ You sound depressed. Why? Why is it so important to get laid?
           Why does the society equate happiness with getting laid? As
           a higher functioning animal, we should not have to have sex.
           Chemically, it is simply exchanging fluid, reproducing, and
           releasing endorphines. Our sex drives interferes with our
           intellectual capacity, our motivations, our morales. You
           don't HAVE to have sex to get that chemical endorphine. You
           don't HAVE to have sex to reach a state of complacency and
           comfort. Here is my secret and I want to share it with yall.
           After my repeatedly breakups my shrink prescribed
           SSRIs and ever since then I stopped having sexual urges.
           My productivity shot up drastically; I'm a lot calmer and
           methodical than ever, and I've actually become more popular!
           Tell your doctor that you'd like to try out different SSRIs.
           It's the most amazing lifestyle enhancing supplement you'll
           ever take in your life. It's hella better than Viagra... not
           that you'll ever want to waste time & money on it after SSRI.
           \_ What brave new world, that has such people in it.
           \_ O brave new world that has such people in it.
              \_ But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want
                 real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.
              \_ Nice.  I was laughing at the above response, till I got to
                 the SSRI part.
           \_ I don't even know what SSRI is.  Does that make me lame or
              fortunate?  BTW, what is SSRI?
2007/8/21-23 [Recreation/Dating] UID:47683 Activity:nil
8/20    My girlfriend keeps sending me links about Andrea Dworkin
        criticism.  Good or bad sign?
        \_ bad. Sorry. It's biological that we need to seek a new
           mate every 5-8 years. Don't get fooled into thinking a good
           relationship & sex life lasts forever.
           \_ Wow.  That's pretty damn clueless.
        \_ I'm ok with not having sex every single day.  Or even every
           single week.  but 6 months?  and instead of having sex
           she's reading Dworkin all the time.  bleah.
           \_ Why do you put up with this?  Because you think things will
              change all of a sudden, or you don't think you can do better?
2007/8/21-23 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:47684 Activity:low
8/20    At what point in your life did you realize that you're a
        Republican, Democrat, neither, both, etc?
        \_ Grew up in the OC... Republican family, like everyone else in
           OC. Hated welfare, lazy people, poor people, and gays.
           Berkeley changed me profoundly. I realized that I was raised
           up as a self loving selfish bastard and realized how stupid it
           was to discriminate against people who were different. I
           discovered tolerance, and consciously avoided discrimination.
           However I also learned how stupid it was to endorse hand-outs and
           social programs and tax hike everywhere; you can't help someone
           unless they ask for it. I became an independent when I turned 20.
           unless they ask for it. I became gay when I turned 20.
           I still am.
        \_ Spartan
        \_ How about the day you wake up and realize it's all a sham?
        \_ I'm anti-labor-union but pro-environment, so I'm probably neither.
        \_ When I realized the Republicans were really screwing up the country.
           That is when I switched from being a Green/independent to the
           Democrats. After they finish screwing things up, I will probably
           switch back, or even perhaps go Republican if the Democrats
           are bad enough.
2007/8/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:47685 Activity:nil
8/21    hey root actually what you should do is make /etc/motd
        group writeable by group 'motd'.  thanks.
2007/8/21-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:47686 Activity:nil
8/21    hey its been fun and everything but root could you
        either restore /csua/bin/* , or spend 5 minutes
        writing a cronjob that tacks on the contents of
        /etc/motd.public on to the end of /etc/motd, every
        few minutes or so?  I'd do it myself but I DO NOT HAVE
        PERMISSION TO WRITE TO /etc/motd !  come on, help us out
        here.
2007/8/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:47687 Activity:nil
8/21    what happened to Guy Ritchie?  I watched Lock Stock,
        Snatch, they were great!  I just watched some terrible
        crap he made that was only released on the continent.
        Stupid Maddona.
        \_ Some people only have 1-2 good movies/albums/books in them.
2007/8/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:47688 Activity:nil
8/21    I doubt ilyas cares about being gay, appearing gay,
        or fitting his gay ass into a mini cooper.
        \_ What!  I care plenty! -- ilyas
2007/8/21-22 [Reference/Tax] UID:47689 Activity:insanely high
8/21    Seriously, what's wrong with the FairTax plan? psb and others
        I'd like to see a real criticism without vague accusations of
        "it's regressive!" It seems like a complete win-win situation
        for everybody. I was concerned about the possibilities of
        fraud and evasion, but when you really analyze it there should
        be less of this than under the current system. Since the overall
        tax on the economy is about the same ("revenue neutral") when
        you consider it's businesses that pay the wages that currently
        get taxed under income taxes, in the long run the cost of goods
        should remain similar, while our exports would gain a
        competitive advantage.
        I'm no expert and I'm open to an honest rational explanation.
        \_ screw you rich flat tax assholes.
        \_ I didn't know what the FairTax plan *was* without looking
           at Wikipedia, and wouldn't you know, Wikipedia also
           provides the information you wanted from psb et al.
           \_ No. Wikipedia's articles have a mostly neutral presentation.
              What I want to know is where the hostility comes from.
              Because I don't understand it. What particular economic analysis
              do people think points to FairTax being a bad idea? Was that
              analysis open to review? I see a arguments in the wiki entry
              analysis open to review? I see arguments in the wiki entry
              that contradict what the FairTax plan proposes. (i.e. straw
              man arguments)
              I just read this: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3428541
              The statements by people opposing the plan are completely vague
              and nonspecific. Look at Giuliani and Romney's answers.
              The liberal think-tank quote they got is totally vague,
              just saying "it shifts burden to middle class". That is false
              as far as I can tell. I guess I'll vote for one of the
              Republicans that support it.
              \_ It's a consumption tax.  Generally the more you make the
                 less of a percentage of your income you spend.  So the less
                 you pay taxes.  And since that means you save more you make
                              \_ "So the less percentage you pay taxes."
                 even more money.  Yes eventually you might spend some of that
                 money, but in the meantime you have had a tax shelter for
                 years.  Consider that 1. people spend a lower percentage
                 of their income when they make more and 2. you need the same
                 revenue as before, that means any sort of flat consumption
                 tax will need to shift (percentage-wise) the tax burder to
                 the lower wage earners.  It's why sales taxes are regressive
                 and raising the sales taxes hits the poorest segments of our
                 society the worst.
                 \_ You're right as far as you go, however, FairTax
                    specifically provides for tax rebates to the poor,
                    making it not-so-clearly regressive.  You didn't
                    address that point, and since you did not, your
                    criticism of the FairTax proposal is invalid. I
                    happen to agree with you that *despite* the rebate,
                    the middle class is going to get screwed, but I
                    can't really substantiate that in any quantitative
                    way.  --PeterM
                    \_ A rebate may help the truely poor, but that actually
                       just shifts the burden even more to the middle class.
                       Unless the rebate is so large that it is going to
                       just lead to a broken tax system that doesn't work,
                       which may very well be the goal of the "FairTax"
                       (what a stupid, misleading, name) plan.
                       \_ No, because they get the rebate also. First you
                          need to define middle class, and show why the
                          analysis presented by the FairTax web site is
                          incorrect (showing that the poor have less burden
                          while the middle class is about the same as now.
                          Here's the thing: if these rich people stockpile
                          money, so what? Eventually it will be spent. Or if
                                          \_ #f -dans
                          not it will be invested in the economy, creating
                          growth. Plus the economics indicate that the
                          \_ Also #f -dans
                             \_ I love your reasoning.
                                \_ The statements are trivially false.  Thank
                                   goodness you're smart enough to see that
                                   too. -dans
                          plan would overall boost the economy.
                          And under the current system, capital gains taxes
                          are lower than regular income taxes. Plus we
                          have IRAs and 401ks to let people save tax-free.
                          The system will just be *massively* simplified.
                          \_ Hint: too much savings can be just as big
                             a problem for an economy as not enough. See Japan.
                             \_ I don't know if "see Japan" is useful... didn't
                                they have a structural problem with lack of
                                and/or difficulty for entrepreneurs? We are
                                so far from saving too much that I hardly think
                                that's a worthy fear. Middle class people are
                                probably not very savvy with their finances and
                                more likely to have money sitting in a non-tax
                                advantaged places like bank accounts. I don't
                                think having a bunch of poverty-stricken
                                seniors is a good plan. Meanwhile the existing
                                wealthy people would have their savings taxed
                                even though they already paid income tax on it:
                                sounds like a wealth tax to me.
                    \_ So you believe that on a sort of religious basis?
                       \_ I would say intuition rather than religion.
                          I'll gladly change my mind if I see convincing
                          analysis and hard numbers.  That is not
                          a religious conviction.  --PeterM
                          \_ Payroll tax is eliminated and a family gets
                             $20-30k of spending tax free. That sounds pretty
                             good to me. Plus boosting the economy as a whole
                             benefits everyone.
              http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_the_FairTax_burden
                        \_ Thanks for these URLs.  I'm convinced now that
                           the middle class is going to take it in the ass
                           while the rich will get a break.  The poor also
                           will get a break.  I'm not in favor of screwing
                           the middle class.  Look at 1st URL, #49.
                           I don't believe for a minute that the "fair tax
                           effective rate" is going to be lower for everyone
                           to the extent claimed--and it isn't going to
                           end up lower for the middle class, who will
                           end up worse off.  --PeterM
                           \_ Where do you see data indicating middle class
                              gets screwed? #49 claims that it is lower across
                              the board. I can't tell you if that's true or
                              not but I wouldn't simply dismiss the
                              possibility. Everyone is supposed to get a break.
                              The retail sales base is larger than the income
                              tax base.
                              (pdf) http://urltea.com/1a80
                              http://urltea.com/1a85
                                \_ I specifically addressed your objection, my
                                   reasoning is that the tax has to be
                                   revenue neutral.  So the money is going
                                   to have to come from somewhere, and
                                   the graphs show lower taxes across the
                                   board.  While that may happen in time
                                   (that is hard to know), at the outset
                                   the tax burden has to be equal.  Now,
                                   you may have a point about the tax base
                                   being larger, but I do not see why that
                                   should be, given that a large consumption
                                   tax would act to limit consumption and
                                   reduce the tax collected.  --PeterM
                                   \_ Everyone would also "have a bigger
                                      paycheck" which encourages consumption.
                                      Partially there will also be a shift
                                      in costs to the business, allowing
                                      them lower prices than otherwise.
                                      them lower prices than otherwise (both
                                      because they don't pay corporate tax,
                                      and because they no longer have to
                                      deal with paycheck taxes for their
                                      employees).
                                      Adminstrative costs: lower by $100s blns.
                                      The tax base expands because you capture
                                      everyone who buys anything, with whatever
                                      money, not just labor income (e.g. it
                                      taxes existing wealth and capital gains
                                      ultimately at a much higher rate than
                                      today).
                                      Another problem is in the current
                                      system, many lower income households
                                      pay more "payroll tax" than income
                                      tax. So replacing that with a sales
                                      tax shifts the burden off them to
                                      higher income brackets.
                                      Plus the rebate is given even to
                                      retired people who have no income.
                                      Additionally the current system
                                      involves tons of complex writeoffs.
                                      That reduces the income base.
                                      \_ You make an interesting case
                                         for "FairTax".  With 50 states, this
                                         could be prototyped by having 1 state
                                         shift from an income tax to a sales
                                         tax to see what happens.  A lab
                                         experiment, in effect.  Or you could
                                         do comparisons with countries which
                                         use a tax system similar to proposed.
                                         (or between states...)
                                         Last, we could phase in a fed. sales
                                         tax by 10% per year, and phase out
                                         income taxes at the same rate,
                                         resulting in a 10-year changeover,
                                         during the middle of which we could
                                         turn in back if we didn't like it.
                                         The income tax could be greatly
                                         simplified along the way, 'cause it
                                         would matter less and less.  I
                                         realize states are not analogous
                                         and that burden on business will
                                         increase, but as people have said,
                                         businesses already collect sales
                                         taxes.  --PeterM
              \- well since you named me specifically, i'll make a short
                 comment. my view is "even vaguer" than "it's regressive".
                 my answer is "the world is complicated and people who say
                 it can be magically simplified are either 1. clueless about
                 the complexity or 2. up to something". if you want to
                 \_ .ch has a very simple tax system (compared to the us).
                    I hope you aren't suggesting the us system is
                    'complex for a good reason.'  -- ilyas
                 discuss in greater length, wall something when i am
                 around. in this case, for the commentators, i think the
                 are mostly in category #2 because they say such stupid
                 things like "we can get rid of the irs" [and dont mention
                 replacing it with state level collection and enforcement].
                 the heart of the tax code is "what is income" ... that's
                 where most of the instructions go. computing the tax owed
                 via tax brackets rather than a single division isnt that
                 big a deal. and corporate taxes [of which i know little]
                 is also complicated for a reason. some of this is bogus
                 [like claiming various pieces of IP have low values in
                 some contexts and high value in other contexts, playing
                 games with transfer prices etc] but parts of it is legit ...
                 depreciation, investment etc. --psb
                 \- this is going out on a limb but i basically think
                    flat tax proponelegit ...
                 depreciation, investment etc. --psb
                 \- this is going out on a limb but i basically think
                    flat tax proponents come on two flavors:
                    --weathly people who realize they will get off way easier
                    --upper middle class people paid via W-2+withholding who
                      realize this doesnt leave much scope to cheat compared
                      to their self-employed friends and the lower upper class
                      people whose employers collude to reduce taxes or can
                      hire tax lawyers etc
                    --psb
                    \_ See, that's a pretty cynical and hostile attitude.
                       Yet you admitted you don't base this on reasoning about
                       the actual plan or economics but on "the world is
                       complicated and The Man is trying to manipulate you".
                       That doesn't cut it with me.
                       \- my level of interest in "cutting it" with some
                          random anonymous person on the motd is pretty low.
                          i pointed you in the direction of my complaints
                          which you are free to persue or not, but ignoring
                          the specifics i list and focusing on "hostility"
                          or "cutting it" is silly.
                          \_ Ok so you basically think the plan won't actually
                             be less complex. Right? That's absurd... the
                             number of "filers" is reduced 90% or whatever.
                             Granted that saying "abolish the IRS" is somewhat
                             disingenuous but the underlying point appears
                             valid. To most people the IRS would no longer
                             be an entity they deal with. And the current
                             tax code has WAY more complexity than simple
                             "brackets". Hey I thought you were interested
                             in issues like this, Mr. Economist reader. I
                             guess I've learned what I wanted to learn.
                             \- i didnt say the current system is good.
                                i think the current system has massive
                                problems. same goes for say school vouchers.
                                the point again is what makes the current
                                system complicated is the detemination of
                                income and the flattax can either avoid this
                                question [making the the complicated simple]
                                or if it does address this, then this is the
                                heart of the proposal ... the problem isnt
                                tax brackets.
                                \_ Why not make taxes trivial for the
                                   90% of filers?  According to you,
                                   that's an impossible motive for someone
                                   who wants tax reform.  Which really says
                                   more about you than the US. -- ilyas
                                \_ Well clearly there is still some complexity
                                   involved on the business side. But
                                   businesses are already equipped to handle
                                   this. The "fair tax" proposal isn't
                                   based on the principle of flat tax
                                   being more fair than progressive tax. That
                                   is irrelevant IMHO.
                                   As for motives, besides the filing hassle
                                   (at cost in time, money, and privacy) there
                                   is the possibility of increased economic
                                   growth and competitiveness, plus
                                   transparency: wouldn't it be nice to see
                                   the federal tax rate right there at the
                                   store or gas pump, in its entirety, and
                                   see it go up and down instead of the
                                   current incomprehensible mess with many
                                   different tax sources and nobody really
                                   knows who pays what?
              \_ Those websites are pretty egregious examples of how to lie
                 with statistics, but I really don't think you are going to
                 be convinced no matter what I say, so what does it matter?
                 \_ I could easily be convinced, which is why I posted.
                    But I'm learning that a lot of people apparently are
                    just scared of change or something and intuitively think
                    it can't work. Isn't the income tax unnecessarily complex
                    and invasive of privacy? Don't all the analyses agree that
                    those near the poverty level benefit 100% from this plan?
                    \- what to do about the poor isnt the problem.
                       it's what to do about income to the wealthy:
                       wage incomes, return to capital incomes, complex
                       time structure of income, income in different
                       juristictions, state-federal issues, wealth and
                       property issues, large multiplier effects/higher
                       sensitivity etc. read e.g. Daivd Cay Johnson.
                       \_ Why is income the problem if we are talking
                          about eliminating personal income tax?
                          \-^income to the wealthy^the wealthy
                          \_ What is stop the wealthy from taking income here
                             and just shipping it overseas for all of their
                             purchases, dodging tax entirely?
                             \_ The point here is that they will not have a
                                large incentive to do so because prices will
                                not be significantly different than they are
                                now. This is because corporations will not
                                be paying income tax. For most purposes it
                                will not be practical to do this kind of
                                thing. Even if it happened, that would
                                have to be weighed against evasion practices
                                in the current system. Additionally, this
                                system would tax consumption by foreigners
                                here (e.g. tourists). Not sure how large
                                that is though.
                                Note that corporate income taxes affect
                                a product's lifecycle at every stage of
                                business; each of these adds cost to the
                                final product. And dealing with payroll taxes
                                for employees is an additional cost borne
                                by every company in a supply chain.
                                Also note that this represents an inherent
                                disadvantage for US products in the global
                                market. Here, they compete against foreign
                                imports whose parent companies are exempt
                                from income tax or VAT on exports. Abroad, they
                                have foreign VAT applied, on top of the
                                "embedded cost" of US corporate tax.
2007/8/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:47690 Activity:low
8/21    why doesn't the bush administration name the next
        hurricane Hurricane Obama ?
        \- What doesnt Congress rename Camp X-ray, Camp Cheney?
        \- Why doesnt Congress rename Camp X-ray Camp Cheney?
        \_ That's silly.  Camp X-Ray already exists.  I'm talking about
           naming a future event.  Completely different things!
           \- Cape Canaveral was (temporarily) renamed Cape Kennedy.
2007/8/21-23 [Recreation/Dating, Health/Women] UID:47691 Activity:nil
8/21    If you like bulked up women humiliating lesser women then
        you'll love my group:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beef_Bulk_Pork
2007/8/21-22 [Computer/HW] UID:47692 Activity:nil
8/21    My giant rack is feeling pretty huge this morning.
        \_ Are you male or female?
        \_ Salma Hayek needs to give birth soon or she's going to
           explode: http://urltea.com/1a1w
           \_ Hers were big even before pregnancy.
2007/8/21 [Uncategorized] UID:47693 Activity:nil
8/21    what a night.  my ass hurts.
2007/8/21-22 [Computer/Networking] UID:47694 Activity:nil
8/21    What's the best bang/buck wireless router acess point?
        I used to use WRT54Gs but their quality seems to have disappeared
2007/8/21-23 [Reference/RealEstate, Finance/Investment] UID:47695 Activity:moderate
8/21    Still believe there is no housing bubble?
        http://www.csua.org/u/jdm
        "The entire Central Valley of California(and, in fact, the entire State,
        with a very few exceptions) is in the worst real estate downturn in
        my 30+ year career.
        THERE, I'VE SAID IT!"
        \_ And she doesn't have an agenda does she?
        \_ If there's anyone who doesn't believe there's a housing bubble,
           please post here and sign it so we can laugh at you. -dans
        \_ I believe this woman has pretty little credability.
           \_ While I agree with you on this point, I still think folks who
              believes there is no housing bubble should post their names on
              the motd so we can laugh at them. -dans
              \_ I never said there was no bubble, I just think this woman
                 is a moron who is trying to make money off of fear.
                 \_ I never claimed you did. -dans
              \_ I don't recall any sodan ever denying there was a housing
                 bubble - just ridicule about timing, poor logic, hyperbole,
                 etc.
              \_ What does "housing bubble" mean?  What are you predicting
                 as a result of this supposed housing bubble?
                 \_ did you have sexual relations with that woman, Ms.
                    Lewinsky?
        \_ Who here said there was no housing bubble?  Prices go up, prices
           go down.  Things change over time.  Sometimes they change fast.
           This is how the business cycle works.  And I still don't understand
           why you or anyone else would be hoping and praying or gloating over
           a potential fall in housing pricing.  All that means is the whole
           economy gets dragged down, interest rates rise, etc, and you still
           won't be able to buy a house.
2007/8/21-22 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:47696 Activity:moderate
8/21    Damn this global warming!
        http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_233143509.html
        \_ even drudgereport wasn't disingenuous enough to lead the URL with
           "Global warming?"
           \_ The point is, everytime there's a new high people talk about
              global warming.  I'm not citing this as proof against warming.
              -op
        \_ The plural of anecdote is not data.
        \_ Why did you delete my comment? The plural of anecdote is not data.
           \_hi aspo.
            \_ nope, that wasn't me. -aspo
2007/8/21-27 [Recreation/Dating] UID:47697 Activity:moderate
8/21    which # are you on?
        http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/sex/10-sex-cravings-intro
        \_ 8 out of those 10 have never happened to me.
           I should just kill myself.
        \_ I did all of them with my first college g/f. Too bad she dumped
           me and moved to the East Coast.
        \_ My wife used to do all 10, and now she does 0.
           \_ No worries. She would've stopped putting out by now.
        \_ I never realized cosmo was so pornographic.
        \_ My wife used to do all 10 without me asking, and now she does 0.
           \_ That's because women don't really like sex. BTW, that
              article seemed like it was written for 16 year olds, which it
              probably was.
              \_ That's because you're doing it wrong.
                 \_ Yes, blame the victims.
              \_ The bad thing is that even though she doesn't seem to enjoy
                 sex anymore, she keeps on seducing me once a while.  But
                 after she gets me started and she takes off her pants, she
                 just lies still and not doing anything or showing any
                 emotion, and just waits for me to finish the whole thing.
                 Every way and everywhere I caress her or kiss her that used
                 to drive her wild, is only an annoyance to her and makes her
                 irritated.  The only thing she lets me do is to enter,
                 finish, and leave.  I mean, if she's not interested in sex,
                 why try to make me hot and then give me a cold treatment?
                 Why doesn'tan't she leave me alone?  This is now getting to a
                 point that when she tries to seduce me, I simply ask her to
                 stop.  -- PP
                 Every way and every place I caress her or kiss her that used
                 to drive her wild before, is only an annoyance to her and
                 makes her irritated.  The only thing she lets me do is to
                 enter, finish, and leave.  I mean, if she's not interested in
                 sex, why try to make me hot and then give me a cold
                 treatment?  Why doesn't she leave me alone?  This is now
                 getting to a point that when she tries to seduce me, I simply
                 ask her to stop.  -- PP
                 \_ You are making me sad.
                 \_ She's a woman. Sounds par for the course. At least you
                    are getting some for now. Expect that to end, too.
                 \_ Hey, this might come as a shocking concept to you but have
                    you actually, ya know... *talked with her* about this?  If
                    you're not a troll then, well, wow, it seems so obvious
                    that you need to be talking to your wife, not the motd.
                    \_ I'm not the PP, but talking doesn't lead anywhere.
                       Are you married? If you go to a therapist what will
                       happen is that everyone will feel good for a while,
                       nothing will change, and you pay for the therapists'
                       kids to go to college.
                       \_ You think talking == therapy? I sense communication
                          problems...
                          \_ Talking is a form of therapy. The whole point
                             of therapy is to get people to talk.
                             \_ No and no.  Please feel free to stop talking
                                now.
                                \_ Yes and yes. Likewise.
                       \_ Where did I say go to therapy?  I said he should
                          talk to his wife.  You know, the woman he married,
                          his partner for life?  Yes, I'm married, and when
                          either of us is unhappy we talk about it and it
                          changes, whatever "it" is.  If he's not going to
                          talk to his wife and he can't mind read then why
                          get married?  Your wife should be someone you can
                          talk to.  If not, you married poorly.
                          \_ Sure, I can talk to my wife. That doesn't
                             mean anything will change. It's like your
                             wife talking to you about your porn habit or
                             leaving your socks on the floor or whatever.
                             Something might change, but don't count on it
                             long-term. "Honey, you need to put out more
                             often." "Okay, dear." Yeah, talking is really
                             helpful. You sound like one of those idiots
                             who thinks that talking actually solves
                             problems like depression, violent tendencies,
                             and other problems. Like a wife is going to
                             talk to her husband about how he drinks too
                             much and hits her. That usually works out
                             real well. This (poor sex life) is similar.
                             It's not asking your wife to please make sure
                             she adds ricotta to the spaghetti next time.
                             Talk is cheap and gets nowhere. A therapist
                                     \_ Talk at someone is cheap.  Talking
                                        to someone is not.  I suspect you
                                        do a lot of the first and very little
                                        of the latter.
                                        \_ I think he's a troll.  We're
                                           wasting precious bits even trying
                                           to 'help' this person.
                             is a little better, because it's good to hear
                             it from someone else. Overall, don't expect
                             talking to solve anything. My experience is
                             that talking is a good First Step and that
                             there is no Second Step other than divorce.
                             \_ Gosh, you're right.  My happy marriage where
                                we talk a lot is clearly a really crappy way
                                to do things.  Much better to be bitter and
                                just not say anything and just call your
                                divorce lawyer.  I can really see how a guy
                                beating his wife is very similar to your wife
                                being hot and cold.  Ok, no, I can't, but
                                since you can, that right there is saying a
                                lot about you.  You're either a troll (90%)
                                or really really really socially inept and
                                never should have married (10%).  Since you
                                posted your silly whining to the motd and
                                then attacked the most obvious first step
                                as being stupid, either way, I'm sure you're
                                not at all interested in saving your marriage,
                                assuming you even are married.
                                \_ They are similar in that they are
                                   fundamental dysfunctions that are very
                                   difficult to solve even with drugs
                                   and/or years of therapy. A conversation
                                   over a cup of coffee (or even a series
                                   of heartfelt letters written over
                                   years) may not solve such a problem.
                                   BTW, you guys should realize there are
                                   several people in this thread. I am not
                                   the guy whose wife is not putting out.
                                   \_ They are in no way similar.  If your
                                      wife is not putting out you may have
                                      bad breath and she's afraid to tell
                                      you.  If you're beating your wife,
                                      then you're a bastard and she shouldn't
                                      have to tell you not to.
                                      \_ Yes, they are similar. It's a
                                         form of abuse. We're not talking
                                         about bad breath here. It's
                                         closer to alcoholism and similar
                                         disorders as far as it being
                                         difficult to control. Do you
                                         think talking to your spouse
                                         about alcoholism will solve that
                                         problem? Perhaps, but not for
                                         most people - and we're not just
                                         talking chemical dependency here.
                                         If it was as simple as talking to
                                         one's wife then it wouldn't be a
                                         widespread problem like it is.
                                         \_ So now your wife being hot n cold
                                            means you're a victim of her
                                            abuse?  The same scale as if she
                                            was beating you or had a chemical
                                            dependency?  You're trolling or
                                            stupid or both.  Go ahead and add
                                            some last bit of idiocy in
                                            response if you'd like before
                                            someone deletes all this crap.
                                            I'm done being trolled.  Come
                                            back later when you're actually
                                            married and have something you'd
                                            like to talk about, kiddo.
                                            \_ You think this guy's wife
                                               isn't abusing him? Reread
                                               his plight again. It's
                                               abuse of the form that's
                                               bad enough to get divorced
                                               over. By the way, I've been
                                               with my woman for 15 years
                                               because she makes me sandwiches.
                                               How about you? Sounds to me
                                               like you just lucked into a
                                               sweet situation. Have you
                                               ever had a problem beyond
                                               your wife putting too much
                                               jelly on your PB&J?
                                               \_ No that isn't abuse.  Their
                                                  problem could be something
                                                  as simple as brushing his
                                                  teeth better.  Look at her
                                                  actions: she comes on to
                                                  him, then turns off when
                                                  they get close.  Better
                                                  brushing and bathing will
                                                  probably fix his problem
                                                  asssuming he's for real,
                                                  which I doubt.  As for me
                                                  it has been 15 years also
                                                  and yes she's great and I
                                                  went through a number of
                                                  losers before finding her
                                                  but talking is necessary
                                                  to keep things good by
                                                  avoiding some minor thing
                                                  turning into something big
                                                  for no reason.  I fail to
                                                  see why talking to your
                                                  own wife about something
                                                  could be considered bad or
                                                  useless in any way.  And
                                                  for the record, my wife knows
                                                  I hate PB and there's no
                                                  such thing as too much J. :-)
                                                  i am extremely clean.
                                                  \_ I am also clean. -emarkp
                                                  \_ [please don't edit my
                                                      posts, thanks.  if you
                                                      were really that funny
                                                      then you could be funny
                                                      without changing what
                                                      someone else has said]
                                                  \_ It's certainly not bad
                                                     to talk to your wife.
                                                     In fact, I'd say it
                                                     is mandatory. However,
                                                     thinking it will solve
                                                     anything is where you go
                                                     wrong. So, yes, in
                                                     that sense it is
                                                     useless. Necessary,
                                                     but useless.
                                                     \_ So you talk just to
                                                        pretend you care?
        \_ Umm, none of these are particularly out there.
2007/8/21-22 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:47698 Activity:nil
8/21    Would someone please post the IMAP and SMTP setting for soda email
        please?  thanks
2007/8/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:47699 Activity:nil
8/21    Buy Ben & Jerry's Stephen Colbert AmeriCone Dream flavor!
        http://www.benjerry.com/features/americone_dream_index.cfm
2007/8/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:47700 Activity:nil
8/21    The current motd is trollific. -dans
2017/11/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/22   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:August:21 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>