Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:August:05 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2007/8/5-22 [Finance] UID:47536 Activity:nil
8/5     Dear joggers. Where do you buy your sportswear? I'm looking for
        comfy AND *affordable* sportswear so that I don't look like a poor
        student wearing worn down Cal t-shirts and jeans. I'd like to
        jog around where I work (Palo Alto) and I do NOT want to wear
        over-priced collegiate shirts and pants (Cal-wear is out of the
        question). PS I'm *not* looking for GAP, Polo or Ralph Lauren
        designer sportswear.  Anything good looking, comfy, AND
        AFFORDABLE will do.  Thanks for your advice.
        \_ Sports Basement or TriSports.  REI works too.  -scottyg
        \_ Why do you care what you look like while you work out? Are you
           a chick? Go to Marshall's, TJ Maxx, or Ross. Sears also works.
           \_ Have you ever exercised? !op
              \_ Routinely and pp's point is valid, only girls or the
                 terribly vain care what they look like while working
                 \_ Some guys want to hook up with the girls or other gay
                    men that are at the gym &c.
                    \_ Okay, that is a good point. I always thought of
                       working out as health maintenance and did not
                       consider the hook up aspect.
                       \_ I've had 2 hookups so far. Looks is VERY important
        \_ Target and REI
        \_ Walmart? How hard is this, really? You went to Cal?
2007/8/5-22 [Consumer/Camera] UID:47537 Activity:low
8/5     I'm thinking of getting a serious SLR camera. Costco is selling
        a Canon SLR for $1299. Is that a decent SLR at a decent price?
        \_ If you don't know, you shouldn't be buying a $1300 camera.  -tom
           \_ I agree with tom.  What do you need it for?  If you don't
              know, it's obviously not _worth_ it.  If you do know, only you
              can make that decision.  If you're wondering about price
              comparison alone, go check out on-line sites, like buydig,
              bhphotovideo, onecall, amazon, etc.  And it's a huge can of
              worms talking about DSLR.  Why Canon?  Did you check out
              Nikon, Pentax, etc.?  Again, it comes down to what you want
              out of it.  --owner of 350D and 5D.
              \_ I didn't know what I needed my SLR for when I bought my
                 350D and it's one of the best purchases I ever made.  If
                 you can afford it, it's a great opportunity to learn about
                 photography -- I found a shitload of stuff I had no clue
                 about that I could just teach myself on the SLR.  Sites
                 like have good explanations of all the
                 features you're likely to see; a colleague recommended
                 that for starters I look at the D70 and 350D, which are
                 very similar cameras at a beginner's skill level.  I'd
                 just recommend getting a better lens than what you're
                 likely to get in a kit.  -John
                 \- overall i have some ambivalence about digital [in part
                    because i am not real good with the software] but two
                    unambiguous wins are:
                    --you can get at least something in low keep-rate
                      situations where you probably wouldnt have shot at
                      all if film+dev was coming out of your pocket [like
                      shooting on a boat in 10ft seas ... i kept maybe
                    --speaking more to your point: you get immediate feedback
                      on your pix so it is easier to casually learn about
                      DoF, motion blurr etc. The EXIF info means you dont
                      have to record the f-stop info in a shooting notebook,
                      and since so film/developing costs, you might as well
                      bracket. So you can see what the difference is, if any,
                      shooting an panorama with infinity focus at 1/500th
                      or 1/4000 sec.
                    --re: kit lens: when i bought my Nikon D70, eventhough
                      i have better lenses in the same range,
                      i still got the kit lens because: the marginal
                      effective price was pretty low, and there are times
                      and places i dont want to take the expensive glass ...
                      when i fell off a camel, you can bet i was happy it
                      was with the kit lens, and not the lens with the 77mm
                      front element. of course this may not apply in some
                      cases depending on other equipment, finances, type
                      of photography etc
                      \_ I dragged my 17-85 all over South America through
                         some pretty shitty places, and I was glad I didn't
                         have the 18-55.  I read a good opinion once that
                         no amateur photographer should need more than 3
                         lenses, and I agree -- your camera is there to be
                         used, if you take reasonable care it'll be fine,
                         but sometimes random shit just happens.  As for
                         falling off camels, get a good camera bag or learn
                         your priorities (camera > personal injury)  -John
                         \_ Let's see some pictures you have taken and then
                            we'll decide whether to listen to you.
                         \- what do you think those three lenses should be?
                            i certainly an am amateur, and i think you want
                            to be able to shoot from 24mm-300mm [and going a
                            little wider than 24 is nice for "big landscapes"]
                            i'd compose this range from 3 zooms, although
                            you can do two. however, a decent protrait lens
                            is reasonable to have. 1:1 macro can be nice,
                            although something like the nikon 105 1:1 can
                            serve as both. anyway, photography is one of those
                            areas where the range of amateurs is so wide,
                            i dont think it's a meaningful group to generalize
                            about. i think the issue is more about what
                            conditions you shoot under [big landscapes,
                            indoor events, posed portraits, sports, "small
                            nature" etc].
                            BTW, there is also a element of adaptation ...
                            once you shoot slides, you cant go back to even
                            nice color prints. Once you've shot at 17-18mm,
                            24mm doesnt see enough, once you've used a
                            medium-high quality zoom, it's hard to go back
                            to the 5.6@300mm zooms [i havent used the
                            legendary 2.8 thrus].
           \_ As implied in multiple posts, you should first consider how it
              will be used.  dSLRs have gotten so popular these days because
              many people think they will take better pictures than the
              compact snapshooters because they are more expensive.  But
              many of these people will also stick with just the kit lens for
              rest of the camera's life.  Keep in mind that most snapshooters
              will do extra processing to make the photo "look better" for
              casual shooters like increasing saturation levels and such that
              serious dSLRs won't do as much of.  For example, I can't remember
              if it was the XTi does it or not, but at least for XT, the
              default setting when shooting in JPEG uses higher saturation than
              [123]0D series.  And if you do decide to go with dSLRs, the XTi
              may be a better way to go than the 30D as mentioned below.  Two
              advantages I really like about the [123]0D series over dRebel
              series are the second control wheel on the back and the build
              quality/feel.  (The feel of the shutter between the dRebel and
              X0D series alone makes me lust for the X0D, but I opted for the
              X0D series alone makes me lust for the X0D, but I optedor the
              XTi until I can afford a 5D series.)  The second wheel is not as
              useful unless you are constantly shootin in full manual mode,
              and the build quality alone probably won't justify the cost
              difference.  But if you can afford the extra cost and go with
              a 5D, the price difference is probably justifiable.
        \_ That sounds expensive to me. You should be able to get a
           Rebel XTi for around $700 w/ the 18-55 EF-S lens.
           \_ Canon EOS 5D 12.8MP Camera Body Only & 2 2GB Card: $2649.99
              Canon 30D 8.2MP 18-55mm EF-S Lens 2 2GB Card: $1249.99
              Canon XTi 10.1MP 18-55mm 1 2GB Card: $799.99
              These are Costco prices. Is it worth it?
              \_ If you can't tell the difference, no.  You should be going
                 to an actual camera store where you can talk with someone
                 about what you're trying to do with your photography.  -tom
              \_ Well, they are reasonable prices, but unless you are
                 a google millionaire w/ money to burn, I would suggest
                 that at least you research these cameras on
                 and to figure out which one best suits
                 your needs. If you are a google millionaire w/ money
                 to burn, why the heck are you looking at something
                 w/ so few MP? You really need a Hasselblad H3D, a Canon
                 1Ds Mark III or a Sigma SD14.
                 \_ And obviously, you're just an average consumer,
                    too, stuck on MegaPixel marketing talk.  Why do
                    you think 30D costs more than 400D (XTi) even
                    though it has lower MP?  And 5D has more MP (12.8)
                    than 1D Mk.III (10.1), too, unless you're talking about
                    the unreleased model.  And I'm not even going to talk
                    about Sigma's Foveon sensor pixel count quirks.
                    \_ I totally argree that I am an average consumer,
                       which is why I own a 400D (XTi). I admit that
                       one of the big reasons I bought the XTi was the
                       10 MP sensor. So what? I researched different
                       dSLRs and picked the one that fit my budget
                       and produced reasonable images w/ very little
                       manual futzing.
                       My point was simply that OP ought to do some
                       research before buying unless he has money to
                       burn, in which case why settle, just buy the
                       manual futzing. Also, the added weight of the
                       30D was a big minus for me.
                       But, in any case my point was simply that OP
                       ought to do some research before buying b/c
                       it is hard to recommend a camera based on
                       price alone.
                 Re 30D unless you are a fairly accomplished photographer
                 it is the same camera as the older XT (350D) and you will
                 be better served by the cheaper XTi (400D) w/ some decent
                 lenses. Also the 30D may soon be replaced by the 40D, so
                 you should expect a price drop on it as well.
                 \- it's not just a matter of money. if you arent committed
                    to taking pictures, it is an asspain to carry 5-10lbs
                    of photogear around. remember the pro cameras dont have
                    built in (fill) flash etc. [1Ds = +2.5lbs body alone].
                    40D is around the corner. you can find the (likely) specs
                    on the weeb.
                    \_ Yeah, I totally agree w/ the weight issue. The
                       extra weight of the 30D over the XTi is a big
                       issue if you are just a causal photographer.
        \_ It all boil down to the weight.  Before you jump into the world of
           dSLR, you need to think how much you are willing to carry all the
           time.  Once you've decided that you are willing to carry the weight,
           then, my suggestion is to get a 17-40mm f/4 if
           you go with Canon, 17-35mm f/2.8 if you go with Nikon. Then, use
           the spare money to get a camera body.  Don't get me wrong,
           both Pentax and Sony also make good cameras, I am just less familiar
           with their product lines.
           You do need to remember that dSLR doesn't necessary take good
           pictures.  It just offers more option to tweak with settings.
           If you don't know what to tweak, then, don't expect too much from it
                                        \- you realize the bhphoto price on
                                           the nikon 17-35/2.8 is $1500, or
                                           more than x2 the Canon lens.
                                           the Nikon 18-35/3.5+ is $450.
                        I think the Nikons have a 1.5 crop factor while _/
                        Canons have 1.6 (unless you go up to the full frame).
                        Nikon 18mm x1.5 = 27mm 35mm-equivalent
                        Nikon 18mm x1.5 = 27mm equivalent
                        Canon 17mm x1.6 = 27.2mm
                        So the Nikon 18 is actually the same (ok .2mm better)
                        effectively. The Canon gets a tad more long end, but
                        the wide angle is probably what's important here.
                        (I have no idea about possible quality differences.)
                        \- my point is the nikon 17-35 is an very expensive
                           lens. it's not a reasonable recommendation for
                           this person. the 18-35 is the lens to recommend
                           at most. maybe even the kit digital only.
                           if you are not going to shoot film or fullframe,
                           might not make sense to buy the expensive D lenses.
                           \_ Yeah, I was just making an observation. Since
                              this person seems to basically want an expensive
                              P&S, might as well get the 18-135mm/3.5+ DX.
                              The DX lenses are much more compact.
           \- what do you guys shooting in the 10mp range do with all those
              pixels? at 8mp i think i am already at the point when my
              ability to crop aka "digital zoom" is limited by shutter
              blurr ... in really stable shots, i can already see the
              stiching on shoes and clothing. they are nice to have and
              storage is cheep now, but really quantitative factors
              probably should matter more for 99% of you ... 8mp + good
              menu design > 10mp + bad interface. etc.
              \_ Well, I bought the 400D (XTi) mostly b/c it was only
                 like $100 more than the 350D (XT). I really don't need
                 the extra MP. The only difference I've found between
                 the 400D and the 350D is that the 400D seems to have
                 less noise at ISO 400 than the 350D.
                 \- yeah i agree often you are getting the extra pixels
                    "for free", like when buying a new camera, but i think
                    when evaluating across models, not weighting the "+2mp"
                    too heavily. although i have to say occasionally when
                    i take a "documentary" photo, it's kinda neat to be able
                    to read small print etc.
                 \_ Same here.  I got the XTi for less noise factor.  In my
                    recent snapshooter purchase, I went with Fuji f31fd
                    purely because of its low noise quality.  MP was one of
                    the last things on my mind.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:August:05 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>