Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:10 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2007/7/10-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:47241 Activity:moderate
7/1-    When our bureaucrats fuck up, they get promoted, are rewarded with the
        Congressional Medal of Freedom, or have their sentences commuted.
        In Communist China...they get executed.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_as/china_tainted_products
        \_ Yes, let's emulate the Chinese way of doing things where they ignore
           tremendous levels of corruption and make an example out of someone
           every so often instead of having a real legal system and cleaning
           up their act in a day to day way.  Woot random justice!
        \_ No in China one bureaucrat who went too far got executed as
           a scapegoat.  Let me guess, you think the Abu Ghraib torture
           scandal was just a few bad apples?
           \_ You have evidence to the contrary?  -not op
                \_ There's a lot of evidence that the people at the bottom
                   of the totem pole on staff at Abu Ghraib did not just
                   magically wake up one morning and start torturing
                   detainees.  Bush/Bush's advisors such as Gonzalez,
                   Yoo and David Addington put together a plan to make
                   torturing info out detainees legal, and it trickled
                   down from there.  There is reams and reams of evidence.
                   dunno why people aren't raiding the white house with
                   pitchforks now.
                   \_ It is one thing for Gonzalez to publish a paper.  It
                      requires actual proof if you want to claim that Bush, etc
                      were responsible and this wasn't just a case of a few
                      bad apples.  The fact that such a small number of people
                      were involved compared to how many prisoners there are
                      strongly implies the bad apple theory.
                      \_ All the "proof" is classified and Bush refuses to
                         hand it over to Congress. Hence the need for
                         impeachment hearings. Where was your demand for
                         proof in the run-up to the Gulf War? Doesn't a
                         desire to start a war require some "proof" as well?
                        \_ how many more bad apples at the top do you want?  I
                           have read articles about how Addington and Gonzalez
                           and Yoo put together legal briefs giving the
                           president infinite power to torture people.  This
                           is not a secret.  How many more 'bad apples' at the
                           freakin' top do you want?  Why are the minions at
                           the bottom serving prison sentences and the guys
                           who ordered them to do it are walking free?  Fuck.
                           \_ I'll say it slowly this time: Writing a legal
                              brief is not the same as having sent orders down
                              the line to the 2 dumb shits who abused those
                              guys at AG.  "Fuck."  Again: No one ordered them
                              to abuse prisoners.  There is no evidence of such
                              a thing and no one outside the realms of dailykos
                              thinks so.  If you wanted to argue that the two
                              knuckleheads actually read the Gonzalez brief and
                              on that basis decided it was a good idea to
                              abuse and humiliate some prisoners you might
                              have something, except both are too stupid to
                              read or understand VCR instructions much less a
                              legal brief.
                      \_ Many more were tortured in Afghanistan and in
                         extrodanary rendition cases, where the CIA turned over
                         people to other governments to torure them. It wasn't
                         just a few prisoners, it was systematic.
                         \_ Which is a totally different thing than what we've
                            been talking about.  That was clearly a government
                            sanctioned policy.  Two idiots at AG taking it upon
                            themselves to abuse prisoners was clearly not.  The
                            former is about trying to get information out of
                            them, the latter is just abuse and not useful to
                            anyone.  You can see the difference, yes?
              \_ all evidence says these "few bad apples" are those belongs to
                 the white house.
                 \_ What evidence?
                    \_ You haven't read Sy Hersh's New Yorker series?
                       Start here:
                       http://www.csua.org/u/j49
                       \_ Not yet but I will now, thanks for the link.
                       \_ Ok, I read the whole thing.  The only line in the
                          entire thing that even refers to anyone above the
                          local commander, Karpinski is this:
                                "Human Rights Watch complained to Secretary of
                                Defense Donald Rumsfeld that civilians in Iraq
                                remained in custody month after month with no
                                charges brought against them."
                          This is light years away from "Bush, etc, were aware
                          and directly responsible for abuses taking place at
                          Abu Graib.  This was not just a 'few bad apples'".
                          Maybe you have something that actually addresses that
                          issue directly?  Ya know... evidence of White House
                          knowledge and complicity?
                          \_ Fair enough, but this article does indicate that
                          \_ Fair enough, but that article does indicate that
                             quite a ways up the chain of command, they were
                             aware of abuses. Here is something that claims to
                             draw the connection:
                             http://www.csua.org/u/j4p (salon)
                             and another Hersh article where the connection
                             between the "torture memos" and Abu Gharib.
                             There is no doubt that Yoo and gang authorized
                             torture from the top. The only debate is on
                             whether this rule was applied in Iraq or not.
                             http://www.csua.org/u/j4q
                             \_ Nah, sorry, I don't have time to read endless
                                links.  You had your shot.  The next time this
                                comes up post your best link first, not four
                                pages of junk I read closely looking for your
                                point which didn't exist.
                     \_ "Look, Sy Hersh is the closest thing American
                        journalism has to a terrorist, frankly." -Perle
                        \_ Anyone Richard Perle hates cant be all bad.
               \_ The policy came from the top:
                  http://zfacts.com/p/100.html
                  \_ Sorry, anything that opens calling people 'neocons' has
                     a clear bias and is not worth reading.  I stopped on the
                     first line.  If you have something factual that at least
                     pretends to be unbiased I'll happily read it.  I don't
                     accept dailykos or freeper crap.  Thanks.
                        \_ read this . fun stuff
                           http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/03/060703fa_fact1
                     \_ You know that there is a large number of people
                        who call *themselves* neocons, right? Are you willing
                        to read the Weekly Standard?
                        \_ Done in an entirely different context not as a slur.
                           But I know you knew that, right?  Post real links
                           from sites without such an giant axe to grind and
                           I'll happily read and respond to them and if they
                           reveal something I was unaware of I'm open to
                           changing my mind on this or any other topic but not
                           from a dailykos/freeper quality crap site.
2007/7/10-16 [Computer/Companies/Apple] UID:47242 Activity:high
7/10    My girlfriend downloaded music from iTunes onto another computer,
        which we do not have access to anymore. Apple has record of the
        purchases through the "Purchase History" option, but their policy
        is that you can only download once. I never realized that. WTF?!
        Why would they have such a policy when they clearly know what she
        bought? Has anyone sued them over this? We have so many songs in
        our Library that we didn't realize we didn't have these few
        missing songs for months. It makes me want to buy all my music on
        CD from now on.
        \_ Free market and Universal Privatization will solve this problem.
        \_ It's your responsibility to backup your own music as Apple
           recommends. Apple isn't obligated to serve their bandwidth
           for you to lose your music. But they do offer a one-time
           exception.
           http://thecontent.wordpress.com/2006/05/24/itunes-lets-people
           -re-download-all-your-music-once/
           \_ I think if Apple provides a service then they should be
              obligated. Either I have a right to the music or I do not.
              I should only have to buy the same music once. Ever. Especially
              if I have proof that I purchased it. Thanks for the link. In
              it, the claim is made that Apple is the only online music
              content provider that DOES NOT allow one to download as many
              times as one wishes.
              \_ Apple sells you something as is, warns you what you're
                 getting into, tells you to take precaution, and you
                 willfully purchase their goods. You then demand more
                 than what was originally agreed to and ask Apple to
                 wipe your ass. So Apple wipes your ass and you're still
                 complaining. Man, beggars can be choosers.
              \_ While I agree with you, it's worth noting that if you lose a
                 CD, no one is going to send you a new one for free.
                 \_ I would argue that if the RIAA wants to sell content
                    then they should provide a CD for free - or for the
                    cost of materials - if you lose it.
        \_ buy the un-drm'd versions, get it on CD, or pir8 it.
           \_ Yeah, I like that Apple is now charging more for the music
              without DRM, even though it's less work for them to do.
              \_ But it has more value to the consumer.  DRM-hampered files
                 *should* cost less than DRM-free.
                 \_ However, they cost more to produce. Apple is saying:
                    "Here is a product with no value-added. We will charge
                    you more for it than for the value-added version."
                    It's like when detergent companies remove the dyes and
                    perfumes from their products and then charge the same
                    (or more) for it.
                    \_ To be fair, the un-DRMed versions are also higher
                       bit rate.  So there is /some/ extra cost.
                    \_ It does have higher value.  To you.  They are charging
                       you more to let you do anything with it.  The crippled
                       version costs less.  But you understood all that.
                       \_ The crippled version costs what it always costs
                          and around what other vendors charged. Then
                          Apple removes their value-added and charges
                          more. You might have a point if they came out
                          with a crippled version and charged less for it,
                          but that's not how it worked. Hey, it's a free
                          market, but I am just pointing out how, as
                          someone said earlier regarding the black laptops,
                          Apple charges more for something old and brands it as
                          new. Un-DRMed was the de facto standard, but now
                          it's 'iTunes Plus' and costs more.
                          \_ "More" and "less" are relative terms.  The pricing
                             model is no secret.  If you don't like it, don't
                             buy Apple's products.  That was my solution.
                       \_ You don't seem to understand prices.  They have
                          nothing to do with cost, they have to do with what
                          people will pay based on perceived worth.  Cost
                          merely dictates profit or loss.
                          \_ I understand Apple's retarded marketing very well.
                             The only reason they can pull this off is
                             because most Apple users drink too much of the
                             Jobs Kool Aid. While the same public that
                             waits in line for 3 days to buy a phone might fall
                             for practices like this, I am turned off by it.
                             BTW, I complained to Apple about this and they
                             let me download my purchases again, except
                             for a whole bunch they claim they do not sell
                             anymore?!?! So kudos to Apple on doing the
                             right thing.
                             \_ Translation: "I didn't read the fine prints
                                and now my gf and I are fucked. I hate
                                Apple because they fucked up dumb people
                                who didn't read the fine prints. Fuck
                                Apple!!!"
                                \_ It has nothing to do with reading fine
                                   print. I am complaining about Apple's
                                   retarded policy. Whether it's in fine
                                   print or not is irrelevant.
                                   \_ Don't buy Apple products in the future
                                      and let them know why.  If enough other
                                      people do the same the policy will
                                      change.  If you're the only one then at
                                      least you're not getting screwed anymore.
                          \_ Agreed.  That's why prices for brown rice are
                             higher than for white rice.  It used to be the
                             other way round in China a generation or two ago.
        \_ that is why i HATE Apple products
           \_ It's a free market, you're not forced to use Apple products.
              \_ I think the DoJ should investigate Apple for cornering
                 the market on MP3 players and phones.
                 \_ They are nothing like a monopoly in the mp3 market and
                    certainly have not cornered anything.  The DOJ has better
                    things to do than strong arm apple into giving you music
                    cheaper from your preferred vendor.
                        \_ Yeah they're busy denying the fuck out of
                           knowing who is running what inside the dept.
                           what the hell does the DOJ do anyway.
                    \_ I could say the same about M$ and yet it happened.
                       \_ You could say the same thing about MS but it would
                          not be true.  The music industry has many options for
                          selling music.  The hardware industry was strong
                          armed into selling windows-only and paying fees on
                          hardware that didn't even have windows on it.  A very
                          big difference.  No one is going out of business if
                          they choose not to sell music via Apple.
                          \_ I was talking about Windows and IE. There
                             were plenty of other browsers out there.
                             \_ Totally different case.  Win+IE has nothing to
                                do with MP3 players+itunes.  Music is not
                                locked to a particular company, device or
                                service and Apple is too small a player to
                                force anything on anyone.  People do it
                                voluntarily because they drank the Steve Jobs
                                Koolaid which isn't an anti-trust violation.
           \_ The Steve Shall Punish you, Sinner!
2007/7/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics] UID:47243 Activity:nil
7/10    See Michael Moore's hissyfit on CNN!
        http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=2823
        \_ MM?  Who cares?
2007/7/10-16 [Recreation/House, Transportation/Airplane] UID:47244 Activity:nil
7/10    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/10/flying.lawn.chair.ap/index.html
        Walters had surprised an airline pilot, who radioed the control tower
        that he had just passed a guy in a lawn chair. Walters paid a $1,500
        penalty for violating air traffic rules.
2007/7/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:47245 Activity:moderate
7/10    What is the legality of buying and using a stun gun in CA?
        \- ilyas? Are you back?
           \_ I like slings now. -- ilyas
        \_ Using?
          \_ fetish sex toy?
             \_ "Oh honey getting painfully shocked into unconciousness was
                 so hot, let's do it again!"
          \_ Using as in the OP wants to know if they'll go to jail for
             stunning someone with it.
2007/7/10-16 [Health/Disease/General, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:47246 Activity:moderate
7/10    Global Warming Could Fuel War - Yahoo! News:
        http://www.csua.org/u/j3z
        "The authors reviewed 899 wars fought in China between 1000 and 1911
        and found a correlation between the frequency of warfare and records
        of temperature changes."
        \_ Universal Privatization will solve the problem!    -Republican
        \_ economics cause wars.  When you have an economy that is largely
           depends upon weather, it is not a surprise that weather changes
           cause wars.   This is also the reason why a lot of information the
           Emperor collects are percipataion records through out the land...
           He knew his throne is depend upon it.
           \_ You mean Emperor George II of the Royal House of Bush?
        \_ Aggression increases with temperature. Just look at how people
           in S Cal drive. Also look at Africa and the # of wars.
           South=dumb, north=smart.
           \_ Damn those dumb ... smart Canadians.
           \_ Yes, the peaceful Vikings.
           \_ Yes, England was very peaceful. You have to tell me
              what you are smoking.
        \_ good thing it's imaginary
        \_ Global Warming causes *everything*.  Didn't you know?
           \_ I thought everything caused GW?
              \_ GWB causes GW, so by transitivity...
        \_ Jared Diamond's "Collapse" has some pretty good analysis of
           architectural evidence of wars and conflict surrounding the tail
           archaeological evidence of wars and conflict surrounding the tail
           end of the Mayan, Greenland-Norse, and Easter-Island civilizations
           when they hit a time of severe resource shorages brought on by
           climate change.
           \_ Greenland Norse did great when it was warm.  When it was cold it
              was unsurvivably cold.  Mayans most likely died of disease.
              Easter Islanders simply used up their island.  I'm sure it is
              a really good book anyway.
           \_ Jared Diamond is far too intelligent too attribute multiple
              \_ If it's unsurvivably cold, how did the Inuit continue living
                 there?  -tom
                 \_ because they were better adapted to living there
                    (culturally).  This is one of the things covered in the
                    book, whose tag-line also is 'How Societies choose to
                    Fail or Succeed'.  The Norse were doing some outright
                    stupid stuff, including, oddly, not eating fish, one of
                    the most abundant food supplies there.
                    \_ I've read the book.  My point is that the Greenland
                       Norse more or less chose to starve to death rather than
                       change their culture.  Greenland is not unsurvivably
                       cold, it's just unsurvivably cold for bovine-based
                       agriculture.  -tom
                       \_ Yes.  And we know what about the vikings?  Oh yeah
                          that they had a farm+cow based culture and didn't
                          change.  From which we can conclude it was
                          unsurvivably cold for our subjects.  Thank you.
                          \_ 32 degrees is "unsurvivably cold" for someone
                             who refuses to put on a jacket.  The point is
                             that Greenland temperatures are survivable,
                             but the society collapsed due to poor choices.
                               -tom
                             \_ Greenland didn't hit 32 degrees.  Maybe 32
                                below.  Their society did not have the skills
                                or cultural understanding of what was required
                                to live in temps like that and wouldn't have
                                wanted to anyway.  Even the Thuule/Eskimo/etc
                                had summer and winter homes they migrated
                                between.  You can bet your ass they didn't
                                winter in Greenland during a mini-ice age
                                because it was unsurvivable.
                                \_ The Norse didn't understand environments as
                                   cold as the southern tip of Greenland? Then
                                   what do you call Trondheim?
              \_ Not really.  They just barely hung on, and they were
                 dependent on imports of key items like iron tools.
                 \_ The Norse?  In Greenland?  They starved to death or left.
                    \_ And/or killed each other for resources during the bad
                       winters, but this was mostly just the usual opportunist
                       stuff. Also, some intermarried and disappeared into the
                       native population.
                       \_ The native population?  In Greenland?  At that time?
                          Say what?
                          \_ Also known as "eskimos"
                             \_ At what time do you think this happened?
                             \_ That's "Thule-Inuit" to you:
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_people
                       \_ There's no evidence that the Norsemen ever
                          intermarried with the Greenlanders.
                          \_ You know, I don't if you're being contentious or
                             are arguing from an archeological/genetic POV.
                             The Norse were infamous for intermarriage; they
                             had extensive contact with the skraelingr in
                             Greenland; thus it's not a huge leap to infer
                             intermarriage. However, I have no archeological/
                             genetic proof to offer you.
           \_ Jared Diamond is far too intelligent to attribute multiple
              major collapse events to climate as a major cause.  -- ilyas
              major collapse events to climate as a major cause.
              I have touched Jared Diamond. -- ilyas
              \_ it wasn't just climate for all of them (Easter Island and
                 the Mayans were attributed more to environmental damge --
                 overfarmnig/deforestation), but the common thread  was
                 conflict/warfare over the few remaining limited resources.
                 Not surprising --  who would expect people to starve to
                 death peaceably.
                 \_ and in the cases where climate change was attributed, it
                    was more as the tipping point that drove a marginal society
                    over the edge into chaos and decline.
                    \_ any society that close to the edge will eventually tip.
                       be it disease, war, lack of some resource due to any
                       cause, they're going over.  climate change is not a
                       reason to fall over.  the effects from climate change
                       might be but only for a doomed weak society.
2007/7/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:47247 Activity:nil
7/10    Will it blend: iPhone edition
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=qg1ckCkm8YI
        \_ I fast forwarded here and there and watched it with no sound, but
           that can't be safe(chemicals in battery, lcd, circuitry, etc. Is
           this a real deal or a spoof?
           \_ maybe you should watch the whole thing.  there are huge amounts
              of {hard object here} will it blend vids on youtube.
              http://willitblend.com i think
2007/7/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:47248 Activity:nil 50%like:47237
7/10    Who is the annoying Heil German John guy?
2007/7/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:47249 Activity:nil
7/10    Communist China is the best troll.
2007/7/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:47250 Activity:nil
7/10    It's my day, not Friday
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:10 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>