Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:09 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2007/7/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47230 Activity:low
7/8     Looks like the US is finally, actually, going to start turning
        the corner in Iraq:
        \_ ummmm, your title is rather misleading.
           \_ more or less misleading than when Cheney told us that?
2007/7/9-13 [Politics] UID:47231 Activity:nil
7/9     Respondents were split over the Supreme Court's 5-4 decision rejecting
        the use of race as a factor in voluntary integration efforts. About 32
        percent approve of the decision, 36 percent disapprove and 32 percent
        said they don't know. But the idea of race more broadly being a factor
        in education or business is a solidly unpopular one. Eight in 10 (82
        percent) of adults say race should not be allowed as a factor in making
        a decision about employment or education; only 14 percent think it
        should be a factor. This opposition stretches across racial lines: 86
        percent of white adults and 75 percent of minority adults oppose the
        use of race as a factor in deciding on employment or education.
        \_ I deleted this along with a bunch of other stuff because no one
           replied.  Maybe if you had added something to discuss instead of
           just quoting random numbers?
           \_ I thought it was interesting even though no one replied.  It's
              good to see that there's broad support for a merit-driven
              color-blind society.  Now if only we could force Ivy-league
              schools to stop "legacies" and pay less attention to $$--or
              force them to adopt a policy requiring exponentially
              increasing fees as the fitness of the candidate for admission
              drops.  I.e., 1600 SAT 4.0GPA gets in free, 1100 SAT 3.0GPA
              needs to pay $1M.
              \_ Nice idea, but it's awful hard to ignore cold, hard cash.
              \_ You haven't considered the obvious problem with assuming
              \_ You haven't considered the obvious problem with assumping
                 GPA and test results correlate with 'admission fitness,'
                 whatever that means. -- ilyas
2007/7/9-11 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:47232 Activity:nil
7/9     IEA sees oil supply crunch looming
        \_ its not peak oil, its a 'plateau!'
        \_ IEA == Eurofag socialists who hate the American Way of Life
2007/7/9-11 [Transportation/Car] UID:47233 Activity:low
7/9     One more carpool toll booth crossing at the San Mateo Bridge starting
        today.  Yeah!
        \_ I drove the SMB years ago so YMMV but the toll booth wasn't the
           problem, it was just too many cars and the interchange on the
           east side of the bridge sucked big time too.
           \_ What time and in which direction did you drive?  I drive in the
              carpool lane around 8:30am every morning, and having two toll
              booth crossing made it smoother.
              \_ Both directions.  About 9am in and 8pm home.  The bridge and
                 toll booths were the easy part then.  But like I said that
                 was years ago.
        \_ How long have you done this, and are you going to move across the bay?
           I've been doing this for 10 months and I'm thinking of moving.
           Give me strength, fellow environment-hating, toll-loving motd readers.
        \_ How long have you done this, and are you going to move across the
           bay?  I've been doing this for 10 months and I'm thinking of
           moving.  Give me strength, fellow environment-hating, toll-loving
           motd readers.  [formatd]
2007/7/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:47234 Activity:nil
7/8     Ok, got it.  You read a lot of for trolling
        material.  Thanks.  Here it is again: ttp://
        Everyone get that?
2007/7/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:47235 Activity:nil
7/9     Anyone else massage their boys with gnomes?
        \_ I thought this is NAMBLA stuff.
2007/7/9-11 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:47236 Activity:nil
7/9     motd boob guy and motd stem cell research guy and emarkp,
        your prayers have been answered
        \_ Don't forget women who've gone through a mastectomy.  If it can be
           used in those cases, it'd be a tremendous breakthrough for many
           women.  Oh, and nice troll there. -emarkp
           \_ np
2007/7/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:47237 Activity:low 50%like:47248
7/9     Heil German John! Do all German's have smelly feet?
        \- NED >> GER [or <<, depending on your perspective] ...
2007/7/9-13 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:47238 Activity:nil
7/9     Using multiplayer Alternate Reality Games on the Internet to find
        solutions to complex world problems
        \_ WE NEED MORE GOLD!
2007/7/9-10 [Science] UID:47239 Activity:low
7/9     YAMP:  Iran: peaceful electricity generation or going for nukes?
        Nukes: ..
        Both:  .
2007/7/9-12 [Computer/HW/CPU, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:47240 Activity:high
7/9     Are 64-bit Linux servers popular compared to 32-bit ones?  My company
        has a server product that supports 32-bit, and we're trying to see if
        it's worth supporting 64-bit as well.  Thanks.
        \_ in my company, everything linux is 64bit except the handful of
           redhat satellite servers, because redhat's sat server product
           doesn't support running on 64bit systems (yet).  DOH!
        \_ Compared to 32bit? No. Whether it is worth it to support or not
           depends on a lot of things, but mostly the desires of your
           customers and the cost of doing supporting it.
           customers and the cost of supporting it.
        \_ It has more bits so it must be better!  Seriously though, now that
           64 bit is here I think you'll find most places doing 64 bit.  The
           best people to ask are your current customers.  Unless you're
           making a pre-packaged toaster product, then it doesn't matter.
           \_ No, you will not find most places doing 64bit. It's still early.
              \_ Maybe at your place.  See the person below for an exmaple.
                 \_ I went to USENIX recently and 64bit is still far from
                    the norm.
                    \_ No 64bit at all in most of the places of USENIX
                       attendees?  You know this how?
                       \_ Did I say: "No 64bit at all?" No, I did not. However,
                          the topic came up in a session and only a few
                          people said they used it in production.
                          \_ Representing how many servers and which companies?
                             Was this the "64 bit linux" session?
                             \_ How many are represented by you and two other
                                MOTD trolls?
                                \_ Oh, ah, personal attack!  Way to go!  You
                                   are right, 64 bit is DOA.  How many?  Like
                                   the other poster we have been building only
                                   64 bit boxes in the last few months and
                                   have the remaining non-64 bit scheduled for
                                   termination over the coming months.  Maybe
                                   your place of business is just too small or
                                   doesn't do real work?
                                   \_ I never said it was DOA. It will
                                      gradually become the standard.
                                      However, it is currently not the
                                      standard. Even you admit that you
                                      only started to switch over a few months
                                      \_ You trolled.  I sarcastically trolled
                                         back with the DOA overstatement.  I
                                         admit nothing.  I told you we've been
                                         at it for a few months which started
                                         last year and continues forward as we
                                         have time for it and new machines come
                                         online.  I expect most places will be
                                         doing similar gradual rollouts.  The
                                         idea that a few usenix attendees at
                                         a single session is representative of
                                         industry is no more likely than your
                                         'motd trolls' as you call us are
                                         representative of industry.  Less so
                                         since we're actually here to discuss
                                         it with you, not a vague 'please
                                         raise your hand' at a session.  Again,
                                         this isn't rocket science stuff.  64
                                         bit linux is a big thing for some
                                         people, nice for most and harmless to
                                         most of the rest.  Only a few with
                                         custom apps or low loads won't get
                                         anything from it.  Unless you *know*
                                         you don't want 64 bit, you want 64
                                         bit.  And just because it isn't being
                                         rolled out in bulk doesn't mean it
                                         isn't the thing to do.  Quite the
                                         opposite, that means it is the thing
                                         that is being done right now as we
                                         speak and doing a gradual rollout is
                                         the smart way to go in most shops.
                                         \_ I was disputing the "most
                                            places are doing 64 bit" statement
                                            above. Most places are not
                                            doing 64 bit for production. You
                                            allude to that above with your
                                            gradual rollout statement. 32
                                            bit is still far more pervasive
                                            than 64 bit at this time.
                                            \_ If they've got 64 bit in
                                               production right now as part of
                                               a long term roll out then they
                                               are doing 64 bit in production.
                                               Just because they didn't flip
                                               1000+ machines in a day doesn't
                                               mean they're not doing 64 bit.
                                               They're being smart.  Any place
                                               with that many machines is going
                                               to do almost any change like
                                               this in a gradual rollout.  Why
                                               is 'production' so hard to
                                               grasp?  What is your tech focus?
                                               Programming?  Sysadmin?  Manage-
                                               ment?  Something else?
        \_ We are 3/4 the way to converting to 64-bit everywhere. We should
           be done by end of year. -Ops guy at company with 1000+ servers
           \_ Why are you converting?
              \_ Because the 32 bit limits suck for real computing.  !gp
                 \_ Then you should've been running Solaris all along. Why
                    was 32 bit okay 12 months ago and suddenly not good
                    enough now? I can think of some reasons why you'd have
                    to upgrade to a 64 bit OS on a 32 bit processor, but they
                    are not common ones - mostly a need to address massive
                    files or memory - hardly a reason to upgrade every
                    server at a company for the hell of it.
                    \_ Solaris = not free.  32 bit 12 months ago = sucked then
                       with lots of work arounds.  64 bit now = it just works.
                       Convert everything because it is easier to maintain
                       fewer images/builds.  This isn't rocket science.  Why
                       do you think a place with 1000+ servers doesn't have
                       'a need to address massive files or memory'?  2 gigs
                       is hardly 'massive'.  I've got games that require more
                       ram than that..
                       \_ Solaris is free. You can have more than 2GB of
                          RAM or a 2GB file with a 32 bit OS. You don't
                          need a 64 bit OS for that.
                          \_ Solaris is not free when you have to buy real
                             hardware to run it and you knew that.  If you're
                             talking the x86 version, get off the motd.
                             \_ I didn't know Linux came with free hardware.
                             \_ The OS is now free, x86 or not. The hardware
                                is not free, but neither is Intel hardware. If
                                you are worried about x86, what does Linux
                                64 bit buy you?
                                \_ The OS has been 'free' for years but
                                   useless without the hardware.  And Sun
                                   hardware is way more expensive than x86.
                                   If I want a production quality system
                                   running Solaris it will cost more than
                                   a linux 64 bit system.  That is why Sun
                                   is dead and linux continues to grow.
                                   \_ You can run Solaris on x86 and the
                                      hardware costs will be the same. If
                                      \_ Solaris x86?  Whatever.  We are
                                         talking about production 24/7 systems
                                         that real people support, not your
                                         Quake4 server.
                                         \_ The code is the same. I repeat,
                                            this is not x86 circa 1992.
                                            \_ Quake4 server.  2007.
                                      you want the Sun hardware then the
                                      premium is not as bad as it used to
                                      be. An Ultra45 costs maybe $6K
                                      versus almost $5K for a high-end Dell.
                                      \_ Great, I just spent an extra $1k for
                                         what exactly?  And how much does Sun
                                         support cost on that box?
                                         \_ For a true 64 bit CPU.
                                      A Linux 64 bit system running on a
                                      32 bit chip is not true 64. If you
                                      \_ Who said these are 32 bit chips?
                                         Where'd you get that idea from?
                                         \_ Which 64 bit chip are you
                                            running on then?
                                            \_ So you're going to claim that
                                               the current gen Intel/AMD x86
                                               chips aren't 64 bit?  This is
                                               going to turn into a philosophy
                                               debate on instructions sets now,
                                               \_ Yes, I would claim that
                                                  the current gen chips
                                                  are not true 64 bit chips.
                                                  They are 32 bit chips
                                                  with 64 bit extensions.
                                                 \_ distinction being? as in,
                                                    why should I care?
                                      want 64 bit Linux you need to run on
                                      something like Itanium and that's
                                      not cheap either. However, did you
                                      \_ Who said Itanium?  Did we flash back
                                         to 1998?  This is 2007.  Both AMD and
                                         Intel are selling true 64 bit chips.
                                         \_ Yes, and Intel's is called the
                                            Itanium - IA64.
                                            \_ See above.
                                      realize that Solaris x86 is not the
                                      same crappy product it was 15 years ago?
                                   \_ Sun is hardly dead. You can get a 16
                                      \_ Solaris x86 is the same crappy
                                         product it always was.  It is a niche
                                         product which makes no sense in 99%
                                         of the real world.
                                         \_ Solaris has a lot of features
                                            that Linux does not have.
                                            \_ Solaris does but who is running
                                               Solaris x86 in a real production
                                               environment?  I'd be surprised
                                               to hear of any place with more
                                               than a handful in 24x7 and have
                                               a heart attack plus a stroke if
                                               anyone is doing thousands of
                                               solaris x86 anywhere.
                                               \_ Why does Solaris x86
                                                  bother you so much? It's
                                                  the same OS as Solaris
                                                  SPARC. A lot of Canadian
                                                  companies are using it,
                                                  FWIW. I would consider
                                                  using it in order to use
                                                  some Solaris features
                                                  like ZFS (until Linux
                                                  gets it), the scheduler,
                                                  and containers.
                                   \_ Sun is hardly dead. You can get a 8
                                      core T1000 for $5k these days and its
                                      operating costs will be less than 1/4th
                                      what 4 dual core Intel boxes would be.
                                      \_ What about 1 dual chip quad box? :)
                                         The T1000 is not so useful for
                                         floating point, but it was good
                                         to mention it. I had almost
                                         forgotten, since I mostly care
                                         about floating point. Also, IBM's
                                         new Power6 chip will run Linux,
                                         too. To claim you need 64 bit
                                         computing and then run it on a 32 bit
                                         CPU is laughable. I will
                                         eventually run 64 bit Linux on
                                         i386, too, but to think that most
                                         people (or even a sizeable fraction)
                                         are doing so now is deluded. We
                                         are just now starting to port over
                                         most of our major s/w, although
                                         we started a year ago, and it
                                         will probably be another two or
                                         three years before we can drop 32 bit
                                         entirely because of all the testing.
                                         A rule of thumb is that it takes
                                         about 5 years to throw old
                                         hardware/software out the door,
                                         so I expect there will be a lot
                                         of 32 bit Linux for some time
                                         yet. Realize that there are companies
                                         still running VMS and DOS.
           \_ Our older 32-bit servers needed to be upgraded, so we decided
              to roll out new 64-bit servers with 16GB of RAM. We have lots
              of apps that need to address more than 2GB of RAM, or we can
              make better use of the new faster boxes by addressing more
              RAM in the java container. It is easier in the long run to
              only have to support one platform, rather than two, also.
2019/06/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:09 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>