Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:03 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2007/7/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:47153 Activity:kinda low
7/2     So the bombers in England were doctors. Popular leftist wisdom is
        that Muslims are desperate because of the poor conditions they
        live in and their lack of education. If only we worked hard to
        improve their conditions, then they would not grow up to be suicide
        bombers, goes the thinking, because they would have something to
        live for. Now that MDs are blowing themselves up can we at least
        begin to consider that perhaps religious wars are not rational?
        \_ Popular leftist wisdom is that religious people are nutters,
           not that Muslim's are desperate because they are poor. Did you
           invent that straw man all by yourself?
           \_ Actually, I've heard many people (including my law profs) say
              that if there was more prosperity for the ordinary people in
              the middle east there would be less suicide bombings, &c. and
              thus the sol'n to the problem is to improve conditions over
              there for (i.e. create a middle class, to promote stability).
              I do not know what the factual, historic or economic theory
              basis is for this assertion, but I have heard it before from
              self-described "lefties." -!op
              \_ Isn't that the neocon argument? If we just give them the
                 trappings of US-style capitalism, they will luv us forever
                 and want to be just like us?
                 \_ You forgot the part where we knock the shit out of them
                    first to show them who's best.
                 \_ No, it isn't.  The left isn't saying they need our
                    economic system, just our prosperity.
                    \_ I guess you're right, although that makes no sense at
                       all. -!pp
                       \_ It makes sense if you believe that there are other
                          ways to achieve economic prosperity.
                          \_ Sure, but name one that's proven to work as well.
                             \_ It depends a lot on what you mean by "well"
                                and what you mean by "our economic system."
                                Does a Scandanavian-style mixed economy count?
                                How about a State authoritarian Singapore style
                                model? And not that I am prepared to defend it,
                                but there are plenty of people on the left who
                                think that State socialism is the way to go.
                                Many, many (probably most people worldwide) are
                                more interested in creating a base level of
                                prosperity for everyone, not just a mass of
                                phenomenal wealth for the top 1%. The US model
                                is not widely emulated for a reason.
                                \_ *Every* country has a top 1% with phenomal
                                   wealth.  Good luck changing that.  It would
                                   be a first in world history if it happened.
                                   \_ Uh, Cuba?
                                      \_ Looked at relatively, especially Cuba.
                                         \_ Any evidence for this statement?
                                            Everyone I know who has been to
                                            Cuba says otherwise, but maybe you
                                            have some hard facts to back up
                                            your opinion.
                                            \_ Oddly enough, I don't have
                                               Fidel's tax returns in front of
                                               me. Why don't you go ahead and
                                               tell us what "everyone [you]
                                               know who has been to Cuba says"?
                                               \_ They say that the standard
                                                  of living is very flat and
                                                  that no one lives
                                                  ostentatiously. They also say
                                                  that the hospitals are
                                                  missing every other light bulb
                                                  to save electricity.
                                                  \_ Did they travel in the
                                                     same circles as Castro and
                                                     that tier? I'll grant you
                                                     that it's flat for most,
                                                     but if Fidel needs the
                                                     latest/greatest tech for
                                                     his health, the slope is
                                                     steep.
                                   \_ Do you think the distribution of wealth
                                      is the same world-wide? Look at this
                                      graphical representation:
                                      http://www.lcurve.org
                                      In the US, the top 0.1% makes 8% of the
                                      overall income, in Sweden it is 1%. So
                                      I guess it depends on what you mean by
                                      "phenomenal". 10X average is a lot, but
                                      much less phenomenal than 80X, right?
                                      \_ 10X is phenomenal.  80X is too and
                                         doesn't make 10X any less so.  Would
                                         you think 10X your salary was
                                         phenomenal or just 'a lot' because
                                         it wasn't 80X?
                                         \_ I think 10X average salary is merely
                                            "a lot." At this point it is merely
                                            semantics.
                                            \_ So if you got 10X your current
                                               you wouldn't think that was
                                               phenomenal?  Okey dokey.  Not
                                               much to be said to that when 10X
                                               is the difference between doing
                                               well enough and being able to
                                               retire early doing whatever you
                                               want with your life while
                                               you're still young enough to
                                               do it after only a few years of
                                               10X.
                                               \_ I am already making 5X median
                                                  income, so no, doubling my
                                                  salary wouldn't really change
                                                  my life that much. You aren't
                                                  paying much attention to the
                                                  words you are using. And no,
                                                  even if my salary doubled, I
                                                  wouldn't be able to retire
                                                  soon.
              \_ Is your law professor a "leftist"?
           \- i think you also have to consider the thesis "there are things
              that matter to people other than job prospects" ... having your
              "homeland" under somebody elsese rule seems to be a good way to
              get people upset, for example. i am not too familar with what's
              under the hood of japanese suicider bombers [how willing they
              were etc], but at least it cant be glibly chalked up to
              religion, let alone islam. i dunno the socioeconomic status of
              the IRA, but they clearly werent desperately poor [not suicide
              bombers, but terrorists and willing to die (see eg BOBBY SANDS,
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Irish_Hunger_Strike  I dont
              think all the TAMIL TIGER suicide bombers are in desperate
              straits financially. So consider looking at the "dual"
              ... rather than focusing on what one person being a suicide
              bomber says about him, what does a steady availability of them
              say about how fucked up things must be. I think usually there
              are better structural explanations for many things than the
              vague cultural ones [like the talk in the 8-s about "asian
              capitalism" ... hey guess what, the japanese economy looks
              different from the US one probably more because of corporate
              structure laws and finance laws, not these vague "harmony and
              patience" arguments ... the german economy also looks
              different, in part because they have firm level unions.
              finally, the islamic suicide bombers phenomena may just be
              testimony to a sosophisticated and expert system of brainwashing,
              like JIM JONES, DKORESH etc. Anyway, the most on point suggestion
              I have is YMWTGF(alan krueger terrorism). i am not saying
              islam nor general life conditions play no role, but it is
              more complicated than that.
              bomber says about him, what does a steady availability (and
              climbing income of the candidates) of them say about how fucked
              up things must be. I think usually there are better structural
              explanations for many things than the vague cultural ones [like
              the talk in the 80s about "asian capitalism" ... hey guess
              what, the japanese economy looks different from the US one
              probably more because of corporate structure laws and finance
              laws, not these vague "harmony and patience" arguments ... the
              german economy also looks different, in part because they have
              firm level unions.  finally, the islamic suicide bombers
              phenomena may just be testimony to a sophisticated and expert
              system of brainwashing, like JIM JONES, DKORESH etc. Anyway,
              the most on point suggestion I have is YMWTGF(ALAN KRUEGER
              terrorism). i am not saying islam nor general life conditions
              play no role, but it is more complicated than that.
              \- http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i39/39b01001.htm --psb
                 \_ So George Bush is a leftist now. This explains much.
        \_ This has been in doubt for some time: http://csua.org/u/j2r
           (Boston Globe article on book by Robert A. Pape). However, it's
           common sense that Muslim Fundamentalist groups are attractive to
           the disenfranchised, particularly in our ally countries (like
           Egypt and Saudi Arabia) where odds of bettering your situation
           through the status quo are vanishingly slim. Cf. Islamic Rev. in
           Iran.
           \_ And because SA and E are dictatorships it is a good idea to
              bomb Americans and Europeans?  I'm not following this line of
              thought.
              \_ Sorry, no, not my point. My point is that we still need to
                 promote good economics and democratic politics in these
                 countries if we don't want them to get taken over by religious
                 fanatics.
        \_ Anyone who seriously makes this claim (about Islamic radicals)
           hasn't spent much time studying or thinking about it. The leadership
           of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and
           the Wahhabiists in Saudi Arabia are all educated, mostly middle
           class men. Now it might be true that they find themselves
           marginalized and with little opportunity to change their lot, but
           they are certainly not starving and not even poor, by their
           countries standards. Palestine is kind of a different story,
           but don't you think that not having jobs, having your freedom
           of movement and your right of statehood taken away might tend
           to breed resentment?
           \_ No one has a 'right of statehood'.  Nations have always come and
              gone based on the (mis)fortunes of war, disease, natural
              disasters, etc.
              \_ Your opinion is in disagreement with the Universal Declaration
                 of Human Rights and the UN, but I guess you are entitled to
                 it. Who else in the world does not have citizenship rights?
                 People don't neccesarily have the right to the state that
                 they want, but everyone has the right to citizenship.
                 \_ That's a 'right' on paper.  It is not a natural right.  And
                    it is not my opinion that countries come and go, it is
                    historical fact.  Maybe you meant something else.
                    \_ The right to citizenship comes and goes? I don't think
                       so, but I guess if you want to bring back slavery, you
                       are welcome to it.
                       \_ No.  The existence of nations/states.  And no, most
                          conquered people were not historically made citizens
                          of the conquering state.  When the Maya fell apart
                          due to disease or whatever it was, there was no
                          replacement state.  If you lived behind the Iron
                          Curtain I guess you were a citizen of something but
                          that didn't come with any rights.  If you were born
                          in this country not that long ago as an Eskimo or
                          continental Native America, then no you weren't a
                          citizen.  And no, slavery is not the only alternative
                          to citizenship as I just demonstrated.
           \_ Stating it like that reminds me of the old historical cycle,
              middle class wants to be upper class so convinces lower class to
              fight for them.  Sometimes the middle class succeeds and trades
              places with the upper class, but the lower class stays at the
              bottom.
              \_ More like lowest classes rebel after being starved out, make
                 some idiot king and things are better for a short time until
                 they have to do it all over again.  Elected systems of
                 government implicitly acknowledge this cycle by giving the
                 people a non-bloody way to turn over the government every
                 so often.  That's why you'll *never* see a revolution in this
                 country or any other elective government system.
                 \_ Well, yes, elections _and_ a degree of complacency brought
                    about by a pretty good standard of living even for the
                    poor. The Upper Class would do well to remember that the
                    distance between Harlem and the Upper East Side is really
                    negligible-- and the distance between Compton and Beverly
                    Hills even more so.
                    \- See "great wall of grosse pointe" aka alter rd.
2007/7/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:47154 Activity:moderate
7/3     iTard Nation:
        http://urltea.com/wdp (ostroyreport.blogspot.com)
        \_ Sheesh.
        \_ "I stood in line for the iPhone. Three hours. It was a fun way to
            spend an afternoon with my wife, child, and a bunch of strangers."
           What fun! I love standing in lines. Sometimes I go to amusement
           parks and stand in line just for the camaraderie of the line, the
           joy of finally being in front. Then I go stand in another line.
           I only wish I had children so I could stand in lines with them like
           this man.
           \_ Hey, in Japan standing in lines is a family activity.
              \_ In Soviet Russia, line stand in You!
           \_ In Hong Kong, lines are longer but they move much faster.
              \_ why is that?
2007/7/3-5 [Reference/BayArea] UID:47155 Activity:nil
7/3     In country names, do "union" and "united" have different meanings?
        Could the USA and USSR have been named "Union of American States" and
        "United Republics of Soviet Socialists" which would still properly
        describe the two countries?
        \_ Why do you think we call it "State of the Union"?
2007/7/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47156 Activity:nil
7/3     http://csua.org/u/j2u
        Steep drop in civilian deaths reported in Iraq
        \_ Meanwhile, steep increase in "Al Qaeda" deaths. Hmmmm.
2007/7/3-5 [Uncategorized] UID:47157 Activity:nil
7/3     Do normal people, and I mean brown people, get to stay out of
        jail while appealing their conviction?
        \_ OJ didn't even get a conviction.
        \_ Ramos and Compean didn't.  Oh wait, they're only Hispanic. -emarkp
        \_ Only if they work for the White House.
2007/7/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:47158 Activity:nil
7/3     http://www.conservapedia.com/Ronald_Wilson_Reagan
        "Ronald Wilson Reagan (February 6, 1911- June 5, 2004), considered
        by many (us conservatives) to be one of the greatest American
        Presidents."
        \_ Your point?
2007/7/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:47159 Activity:nil
7/3     Landlock country Switzerland won yachting's most prestigious race.
        http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-americascup&prov=ap&type=lgns
        \- assuming this is in earnest, "swiss" team in this sense only
           means that is where the syndicate money came from. the crew is a
           1/3 from NZ and about 10% swiss.
        \_ Yatching?
           \_ Typo.  Should be yachting.  -- OP
2007/7/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:47160 Activity:nil
7/3     Roving Lesbian Gangs Raping Young Girls
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1860470/posts
        \_ freerepublic used to be useful before it was
           taken over by zionist jews...
        \_ Posting to freerepublic gives you the Gay.
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1860470/posts
2007/7/3-4 [Recreation/Pets] UID:47161 Activity:low
7/3     I'm researching purebred dogs. What does it mean when a dog's
        parents (sire/dam) have "Ch." in front of them? Like
        "Ch. Rosemary" or "Ch. Mercedes"? I'm guessing it's some
        certification, or a winner at the dog show? Does it mean they're
        genetically tested or examined for predisposition to diseases?
        \_ Ch = Switzerland. It stands for "Confoederatio Helvetica"
        \_ Ch == Champion?
        \_ Cheese
           \_ Praise cheeses!
2007/7/3-5 [Recreation/Humor] UID:47162 Activity:low Cat_by:auto
7/3     Drive fast? You have have a small penis!
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19569900/site/newsweek
        \_ Cool!  I wonder whether it was their govt or a research firm who
           did the research.
        \_ I drive like a 70 year old Asian grandma. So that means I have a
           huge cock.
        \_ I gotta show this to my wife so that she'll stop nagging me when
           I drive on the slow lane.
        \_ I gotta show this to my wife so that she'll stop nagging me when I
           drive on the slow lane.
        \_ I live in the SF Bay Area.  Driving fast would be anything above
           idle speed.
2007/7/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:47163 Activity:nil
7/3     Transformers vs. Robotech comparisons, add if you want:
        \_ Decepticons = evil giant creatures
           Allspark = protoculture
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/20    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:03 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>