Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:02 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2007/7/2-4 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:47144 Activity:nil
7/2     Re: Aspen and "PECUNIARY EXTERNALITIES" ...
2007/7/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:47145 Activity:moderate
7/2     Prez commutes croney's sentence: (
        \_ I gotta hand it to "Bush will not pardon Libby" guy, he turned
           out to technically be correct. He should have bet me, he would
           have made $20. -ausman
           \- ausman advisory: this commutation is an exercise of the
              pardon power. i.e. the president (or many governors)
              can use the POWER OF THE PARDON to change a death sentence
              to a life sentence. this is a weird version of that.
              See e.g. Shcick v Reed:
           \_ Too bad no one took me up on my $1m bet.  :-)   To the advisor
              above: Libby is still a convicted felon with a $250k fine, and
              2 years of probation to go along with his destroyed career,
              reputation, lost time, stress, and millions of dollars in legal
              fees.  That is hardly a 'pardon' in any normal sense of the word.
              \_ Bush can (and probably will) still pardon Libby, after
                 he has exhausted the appeals process.
                 \_ Time will tell.  I admit to being surprised Bush did even
                    this much for him but it does fit the pattern of pissing
                    everyone off without actually doing the right thing.
              \_ Besides the above, don't be too sure Libby's career is
                 destroyed. It will not be the same as it was but I don't
                 think he's out on his ass. Millions in legal fees? Reference
                 \_ GOP fundraisers are already covering his legal costs and
                    a juicy appointment with the AEI awaits him.
                    \_ Oh goody, that makes it all ok.  Sign me up!
        \_ Praise jesus!
        \_ You know, Bush has been hammered by people about Ramos and Compean
           (two border guards currently serving a sentence for something I
           don't think they're guilty of), and his response when asked for a
           pardon/commutation has been that "there's a process to go through"
           and he'd look at it after it went through that progress.  He seems
           to have skipped that process for his pal.  I have to wonder why his
           approval rating is above 0% at this point for anything other than
           the war. -emarkp
           \_ not that i have any sympathy for illegal immigrant drug dealers,
              but didnt those border guards falsify their reports?
              \_ apparently.  what about it?  should that result in their
                 lives being destroyed?  should that be enough to grant
                 immunity to a known illegal alien felon to testify against
                 them?  i dont think so.  dock their pay?  sure.  put them
                 on suspension?  sure.  send them to some hellish HR inspired
                 training for a few weeks?  sure.  demotion?  maybe.  prison?
                 for a false report?  nuh-uh.
                 \_ Part of the reason for the relatively stiff (though not,
                    as Bush claims, beyond the sentencing guidelines) penalty
                    against Libby was because of the abuse of office.  I would
                    submit that law enforcement personel deserve similarly
                    stiff sentences for abuses of their offices as well.
                    \_ They got hammered to 'send a message' to the rest of
                       the border patrol agents.  Abuse of office?  Bullshit.
                       Happens all the time without *any* punishment at all
                       levels of government much less going to friggin prison.
                       \_ I don't know the particulars of this case.  I was
                          speaking generally.
                          \_ Generally, an abuse of power, especially something
                             as trivial as misfiling a report not only would go
                             unpunished but unnoticed.
              \_ No, they didn't.  They were required to submit oral reports to
                 their supervisors.  The supervisors /were present/ at the
                 scene after the shooting when 9 officers helped collect shell
                 casings.  That's part of the lie that Johnny Sutton (a Bush
                 buddy) keeps telling.  Another of the lies was the claim by
                 Homeland Security that they said they were "going to shoot
                 some mexicans", which was only exposed when an HS rep was in
                 front of Congress under oath for another reason. -emarkp
        \_ Just in time for Indepedence Day!
        \_ Why does the president have this power, again? Seems pointless.
           \_ So he can pardon his predecessor of any crimes committed while
              in office. And the circle-jerk goes round and round.
           \_ The Founders gave the President this power so he could take
              action to right wrongs even though it may be unpopular.
              Ultimately this is about having a final say in thwarting mob
              rule quality 'justice'.  Seems pointed.
              \_ There was much debate about the merits of the power even
                 when the Constitution was written. While it has "a point"
                 I don't believe the greater good is served by the president
                 having this power. We have a justice system and a supreme
                 court. That's not mob rule. Think if the power didn't exist,
                 what great wrong would not have been righted? Some death
                 sentences have been commuted but there you have to get into
                 the whole "should we have the death penalty" issue. Having
                 the executive leader arbitrarily decide who dies is stupid
                 and reminiscent of monarchy.
                 \_ The justice system is all about mob rule.  That's what a
                    jury is.  Very few cases are taken up by the USSC.  I don't
                    see it as the executive arbitrarily determining death.  We
                    already have the justice system for that as you said.  This
                    is about having a final way to correct some great wrong.
                    I looked up Clinton's pardon list.  There was a mix of
                    drug offenses, white collar crime and military crimes he
                    over turned.  Most of them were so old the people had
                    already served their sentences so what he was really doing
                    was restoring their right to vote, cleaning their records,
                    etc so they can live normal lives.  Anyway, I don't see
                    400 or so pardon/commutations out of the zillions convicted
                    to be that big a deal.
                    \_ Have you ever gone through the jury selection process
                       and actually served on a jury?  Just curious.  I have
                       a lot more faith in an average jury, than an
                       average gvt procecutor, say. -- ilyas
                       \_ I think most juries do their best to get it right
                          but we know that isn't always true.  Thus the
                          President has the power to pardon as the ultimate
                          final check on the system.  The founders didn't give
                          him the power to convict, only free.  Reagan did just
                          over 400.  Clinton did a few more.  Bush1 did under
                          100.  I don't know how many Bush2 has done.  These
                          are very small numbers and I'm a-ok with them even
                          if some were questionable.
        \_ Wait, this is the treason guy, right?  -John
2007/7/2-5 [Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:47146 Activity:nil
7/2     in nytimes today:
2007/7/2-5 [Uncategorized] UID:47147 Activity:nil
7/2     Kwik-e-mart in town
        \_ I drove by the one in LA tonight and it had a line 50 people deep
           just to get in.
2007/7/2-5 [Uncategorized] UID:47148 Activity:nil
7/2     fess up.  who got an iphone?
2007/7/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:47149 Activity:low
7/2     Three more judges (two of them Republican) join the
        MSM/Karl Rove/Dick Cheney conspiracy to put Libby behind bars:
        \_ 'The three-judge panel of the appeals court rejected Libby's
           request in a one-paragraph order, ruling he has not shown that
           his appeal "raises a substantial question."'
        \_ Hell, even John Dean called this one:
           \_ " are the steady stream of personal threats the judge
               has received from the right-wing nuts who have called and
               written him." Remember, they aren't terrorists, just good
               patriotic Americans who are trying to correct an error.
        \_ No one here said it was a conspiracy.  They said he got screwed
           which has happened to many innocent people in our justice system.
           Why is it so hard to believe it happened to Libby?
           \_ 'Cos he's an evasive scumbag who worked for a man who redefined
              moral ambiguity to mean "anything I want to do"?
              \_ Covered this a dozen times already.  He didn't evade and he
                 didn't even have to talk to the grand jury.  He volunteered
                 to do so.  But don't let facts get in the way of your bias
                 and agenda.  Carry on.
                 \_ Why would a panel of 3 judges, 2 of them Republicans,
                    then say there was "overwhelming" evidence to his guilt
                    if he's innocent?  The fact is he lied about the events
                    surrounding the outing of an undercover CIA agent.
                    If you think committing perjury
                    when it comes to treasonous activity is not a big deal
                    then say so.  For instance, I admit 100% Clinton lied
                    about his relationship to Lewinsky under oath.  I just
                    don't think lying about your sex life under oath is a
                    big crime.
                    if he's innocent?
                    \_ Why do you keep bringing up the political affiliation
                       of the various parties?  If this is about real justice
                       then it shouldn't matter.  If this is political then
                       justice and truth has nothing to do with it.  As far as
                       treasonous activity and outing agents goes, *HE DIDN'T
                       DO THAT*.  The guy who did do that was *known to the
                       prosecutor* _before_ Libby testified.  This never had
                       anything to do with finding who talked about Plame.
                       If it did why was Armitage never prosecuted?  Because
                       she wasn't undercover and no crime was committed re:
                       Plame's identity.  Even if Libby lied his ass off, it
                       is no more a crime to lie about something that wasn't
                       a crime than it was to get nooky in the Oval Office
                       and lie about that.  Sheesh, you really don't know
                       anything about the details of his case, huh?  I guess
                       that never stopped anyone from posting to the motd.
                       \_ There were (at least) three leakers.  Armitage,
                          Libby, Rove.  Armitage didn't know plame's name
                          until it was brought to him.  They (bush? cheney,
                          more likely.  he likes [mis]using intel) wanted
                          the name out there.  They got it.  Libby took
                          the fall to protect "them".  And now he's getting
                          his kickback, with the side bonus that he can still
                          plead the 5th if called before congress.
                          \_ Uh huh, and where is the prosecution of Armitage,
                             again?  Riiight.  The rest is just conspiracy.
                       \_ I guess you know more about the law than those
                          \_ Yummy, arguing from authority.  I know the case
                             better than anyone here seems to.
                       \_ Lying to a Grand Jury is always a crime.
                          \_ Have you been with us today?  That is exactly
                             what I've been telling you he didn't do.
                       \_ Perhaps your psychic powers could help us to find
                          Jon-Benet Ramsey's killers as well?
                       \_ I strongly encourage you to post your theories about
                          the "true Libby case" to The Economist's View blog
                          where they can be examined more thoroughly.
                          \_ I don't have theories.  I followed the case which
                             no one else here apparently did.  I've only
                             repeated documented facts about what happened in
                             front of the Grand Jury.
                             \_ They asked him about conversations and know-
                                ledge. He told them he couldn't remember. They
                                didn't believe him, and his own notes, memos,
                                and such indicated otherwise. Hence, they
                                charged him with perjury, and a jury of his
                                peers found him guilty. The Judge reviewed the
                                basis of the case and didn't find it wanting
                                enough to grant dismissal. He now has a chance
                                at appeal, but he still has to go to jail just
                                like anyone else who has been convicted.
2007/7/2-4 [Uncategorized] UID:47150 Activity:nil
7/2     ROFLMAO!
2007/7/2-4 [Uncategorized] UID:47151 Activity:kinda low
7/2     i do this when bored
        \_ What, post random YouTube links without descriptions?
                \_ its something about shao lin dudes hanging giant
                   weights from their testicles.
2007/7/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:47152 Activity:nil 69%like:47177
7/2     Why Bush commuted Libby's sentence instead of pardoning him: (Economist's View)
        \_ More obstruction of justice.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:July:02 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>