Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:June:16 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
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2007/6/16 [Uncategorized] UID:46977 Activity:nil
6/15    Dear old men. Why do you enjoy banging 17 year olds?
2007/6/16-18 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:46978 Activity:nil 76%like:46895
6/16    Romney is not a flip-flopper, he was just "won over"
        http://www.csua.org/u/ixt
2007/6/16-18 [Transportation/Car] UID:46979 Activity:low
6/16    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070615/ap_on_re_us/buried_belvedere
        ".. and the contents of a typical woman's handbag placed in the
        glove compartment: 14 bobby pins, a bottle of tranquilizers, a
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                          \_ Maybe it was the equivalent of
                                             today's antidepressant drugs.
        lipstick, a pack of gum, tissues, a pack of cigarettes,
        matches and $2.43."
        Maybe feminism was a good idea after all.
        \_ Hmmm...my dad's got the exact same car.  They don't make them like
           that any more.  -scottyg
2007/6/16 [Recreation/Dating] UID:46980 Activity:nil
6/16    Why I only date Asian women: it's popular and it makes you more
        ethnically conscious and more socially sophisticated. In fact
        we only hang out with other Caucasian/Asian couples because
        they're more intellectually stimulating to be with. In the Bay
        Area, dating Asian allows you to be accepted in the society more
        easily. It is almost a necessity.               -Asian fetish guy
2007/6/16-19 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:46981 Activity:high
6/16    It's been over 50 years. Why the hell are we still fascinated
        by Hitler? 1/2 of History Channel's programs are on Hitler.
        \_ We won WW2. Mission Accomplished! Happy ending.
        \_ It's also known as "The Hitler Channel"
           The most despised man in the entire history history of mankind,
           is also one of the most popular persons to talk about today.
           Ironic isn't it?
        \_ Apparently THC has a preference for WWII footage because it's out
           of copyright, so they don't have to pay royalties for news tapes
           and such. Footage from newer wars is more expensive, and there's no
           video from older wars, so war shows focus on what they've got. If
           you're asking why THC shows so many war shows, that's a different
           matter.
        \_ Defeating Hitler was America's biggest rah-rah moment.  Everything
           else is ambiguous.  World War I did not have a clear reason or
           moral basis, and the ending was unsatisfying.  Japan had the moral
           question of the use of nuclear weapons.  Vietnam was the darkest
           era in American history since the Civil War.  (Possibly now
           eclipsed by the Dubya era).  Bottom line; no one wants to be
           depressed by their TV.  -tom
           \_ may be they should run a special on Operation Desert Storm.
              We totally kicked ass on that one!   :D
        \_ I think it's the old man market.  also they show
           MAIL CALL.
        \_ MAIL CALL.  HOO-RAH.
           \_ Except most of the actual work, from breaking Wehrmacht's back
              in the East, to actually storming Berlin was done by Russia.
              \_ GOOOOOO JOE!
              \_ I don't watch the history channel much, but I'm pretty sure
                 they don't emphasize Russia's role.  -tom
                 \_ "I don't watch much but ...".  Yes they do.  Sheesh.
                    \_ they mentioned it, but I think it's not to the
                       proportion which USSR deserves.
                       \_ On what?  One show?  I've seen entire programs
                          devoted to single battles between the Germans and
                          Russians in WWII.  Oh no, boo hoo, the poor Russians
                          don't get enough credit for WWII on THC!  Anyone
                          watching THC knows what the Russians did, even if
                          THC is their only source of WWII information.
        \_ I talked to some tv people.  it's about 50 percent
           lack of royalties needed for ww2 footage, 40 percent
           old man market, maybe 10 percent war is depressing.
        \_ Because it isn't every day that there's a world war which includes
           huge troop movements, fighting on land/sea/air, the destruction of
           entire countries, genocide on an industrial scale, and enough
           quality film to make a worth while documentary on it.  As far as
           THC goes, I've had THC on all day/evening for the last few days
           and haven't seen a single word about Hitler or WWII.  So what are
           you talking about?  But if you want to know about Ice Road Truckers,
           (in HIGH DEF!) I'm with you, Brother!
           \_ Personally, I prefer Strawberry Cough to Diesel for my THC.
              \_ I prefer Dogfights.  Cool animation.
                 \_ E_TOOSHORT
                    \_ Care to elaborate?
        \_ Snazzy dresser, liked dogs & children, sexy mustache.  -John
        \_ I think ther Germans today are more obsessed with Hitler's sins
           than us.
           than we are.
           \_ Rightly so.  Why do you think that might be, hmmm?
           \_ "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
              But in ourselves, that we are underlings." -- ilyas
2007/6/16 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46982 Activity:nil
6/16    Jew victim of racism
        http://www.csua.org/u/ixx
2007/6/16-19 [Uncategorized] UID:46983 Activity:nil
6/16    It's Bloomsday.  Drink something.
        \- E_HELYS
2007/6/16-20 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:46984 Activity:high
6/16    article on chinese (gold) farmers --psb
        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/magazine/17lootfarmers-t.html
        \_ I never really understood why people pay real cash for loot in
           these games.  They don't take that long to hit the level cap and
           long before you're there you should have more cash than you know
           what to do with.  And really, isn't getting loot and leveling the
           whole point of these games?
           \_ Becuase some loot is mind numbingly boring to get, and the only
              'challenge' is putting in the time to acquire it.  Take the
              worst case -- epic flying mount, which once you have the level,
              the only requirement is 5000g.  You can 'farm' -- repeatedly
              killing stuff for gold, netting, say 50g an hour -- thats a
              100 hour investment.  Or you can just go buy the gold for real
              cash from one of these operations.    But many of the 'best
              stuff' is not buyable, you have to 'earn it' yourself in big
              raids.  But  much of the raid design requiers you to get potions
              and enchants to prepare for the raid, and THIS is stuff you can
              buy from others (including farming operations).  There are many
              who would prefer to raid rather than farm for materials to
              support their raiding.  The guild Nihilum, who were the first to
              complete some end-game boss raids, admitted to doing this, at
              one point.
              \_ Ok, I can see how that goes.  But it seems to me that rather
                 than pay someone to do the 'boring' parts of the game it
                 would be better to play a different game.  If all games have
                 parts that are (semi)mandatory but boring then maybe it would
                 be better if everyone just stopped playing these sorts of
                 games until developers respond.
                 \_ OK, you get on that WoW boycott and let us know how it
                    works for you.
                    \_ I bought my copy a month after it started.  I played for
                       about 5 nights and just stopped.  It was totally boring
                       and I didn't even get to the point of grinding anything.
                       \_ 5 days isn't far enough into the game to see any
                          of this.
                          \_ 5 days into the game was more than enough to see
                             that it was a boring waste of time and effort.  As
                             I said I didn't get the "opportunity" to grind
                             the game because it sucked too much to bother to
                             get that far.
                    \_ I don't know about pp, but my Wow boycott has been great
                       for me.  I save money, have more time, AND don't have to
                       grind.  I recommend it.
                       \_ Me too. I play other games still, so I'm not saving
                          that much time, but I get a much greater variety of
                          experiences. I can play Angband if I want to grind.
                          The social aspect of WoW isn't very interesting
                          and requires large chunks of time to maintain.
                          An MMO with more focus on player-driven world
                          economy and power would be more interesting for me.
                          Still hard to avoid the time sink effect in a
                          realtime game world.
                          \_ EVE onlnie has much of this.  The problem is it
                             is hard to find direction in their world.  There
                             is no clear path of quests and levelling to follow
                             and puts of a lot of people.  the "now, what do I
                             do ??" effect.
                             \_ Sounds like you are not tall enough for EVE.
                             \_ I have read about EVE and yeah it's the one
                                that seems closest however it is still based
                                on grinding for resources at heart. At least
                                your group can struggle for the most lucrative
                                places and stuff. Still too much work stuff.
                                In a single player game you can play someone
                                who is really special, as opposed to superhero
                                class 14881 instance 74941781, wait in line
                                to kill evil overlord #4281 for the 654819th
                                time.
                 \_ "The Grind" is a design feature of MMOs.  People enjoy
                    MMOs for the same reason they enjoy exercise -- there is
                    an endorphin release involved with delayed gratification.
                    People who bypass 'the grind' perhaps crave adrenaline
                    release instead.  http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/exercise.png
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ The Grind is an example of poor story design. A better
                       idea would be more single-player quests. Hard to tell if
                       this is a limitation of the system or the designers.
                       \_ 'The grind' has nothing to do with 'the story.'
                          Look at angband -- it's all grind, no story, and
                          people play it.  'The story' caters to people who view
                          video games like a book, 'the grind' caters to
                          people play it.  'The story' caters to people who
                          view video games like a book, 'the grind' caters to
                          people who view video games like exercise.  The grind
                          isn't really a flawed concept -- it fulfills a
                          need in certain sorts of players.  Are 'one-armed
                          bandits' in Vegas flawed?  You need to get away from
                          this "I don't like it -> it must be bad design" thing.
                          Actually angband reminded me of another
                          this "I don't like it -> it must be bad design"
                          thing. Actually angband reminded me of another
                          psychologically powerful feature of 'the grind' --
                          it relies on uncertain rewards, and so results in
                          gambling behavior where you gamble with your time
                          instead of your money.  Delayed gratification coupled
                          with uncertain rewards is powerfully addictive stuff.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ If I understand you correctly, you're saying that
                             the Grind is like Minesweeper. That's cool, but
                             minesweeper is an opt-in activity, not one you
                             have to play N times before you're allowed to
                             play Freecell. If the Grind were option, if you
                             could level w/o Grinding, I'd buy your argument.
                             Since you generally cannot, I suggest to you that
                             the Grind is used in place of good story dev.
                             \_ There is no freecell, though.  The grind never
                                stops, you never get past it to get at some
                                other phase of the game.  If you don't like
                                the grind you shouldn't play games with grind
                                in it.  Perhaps what confuses you is that
                                leveling has two purposes in games -- it's
                                a tool to pace content consumption, and it's
                                (one of the) tools for grinding.  Sounds like
                                you are interested in content consumption,
                                and that's fine -- there are plenty of games
                                built on that.  But that doesn't imply there
                                is something wrong with the grind as a gameplay
                                feature.  A pure 'content consumption' game
                                would be something like Myst.  A pure 'grind'
                                game would be something like angband (or diablo
                                its derivative).  Both are fine games, they
                                just appeal to very different players. -- ilyas
                                \_ Well, those grind games do have some sort of
                                   content: new monsters, areas, and abilities.
                                   So the gameplay does change a bit over time.
                                   This stuff is fairly minor of course, but
                                   it keeps the grind feeling fresh over time.
                                   Diablo also has a few high quality movies
                                   to reward you. In the long run it is simple
                                   gambling for random items as you say.
                                   \_ The new monsters are just like the old
                                      monsters with more hit points and they
                                      hit back harder.  The new areas is just
                                      a bigger place to walk through, killing
                                      more play time.  New abilities can change
                                      game play but not if it is just "spell
                                      damage++".  I played several MMOs for
                                      years and just don't see the point
                                      anymore.
                                      \_ I don't see the point either, although
                                         I did enjoy Diablo where you could
                                         beat it in reasonable time. I was just
                                         pointing out that the different quests
                                         and such is content and takes writers
                                         and artists and such. I wasn't
                                         commenting on the value of it.
                                         \_ Most of this thread can be summed
                                            up by an exchange that occurred
                                            between me and a friend who really
                                            wanted me to get into Diablo:
                                Me: "Liked D, but thought it repetitive."
                                Him: (Ironically) "Ya think?"
                \_ The 'grind' in general is a means of keeping players *in*
                   the game, in that they have limited developer time to design
                   the 'end game stuff'  and once players have it, then what?
                   in a few days they get bored and quit.  These games are
                   subscription based, keeping them in the same game is how
                   the publisher gets money. Unlike a pay to buy the game model
                   where you want the players to burn through the game and get
                   a new one.   I don't really agree with the model here, but
                   its what they do.
                   \_ I suspect there will come a point where either someone
                      designs a game that isn't like that and kills the entire
                      current crop or enough people just give up on the MMORPG
                      thing that the genre slowly fades away.  I hope for the
                      former.
                      \_ I am taking bets that neither the former nor the
                         latter will ever happen. -- ilyas
2007/6/16-19 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:46985 Activity:kinda low 61%like:46987
6/16    Heil German John! Even the 72 year olds are mighty!
        http://www.csua.org/u/ixy
        \_ You got it all wrong. It's "Heil Almightly German Nazi Squirell!"
           \_ You may refer to me as SS Poster Boy.  -John
           \_ You may refer to me as SS GBIB.  -John
2007/6/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46986 Activity:nil
6/16    Thank God Bush's stormtroopers are protecting America from
        toddlers with sippy cups:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070616/ap_on_re_us/airport_sippy_cup
2007/6/16 [Uncategorized] UID:46987 Activity:nil 61%like:46985
6/16    Heil German John! Did your father kill this squirrel?
        http://www.csua.org/u/ixy
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:June:16 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>