Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:June:14 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2007/6/14-19 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:46938 Activity:high
6/13    Guess what liberal urbanists-- automobile is not going away! Boohoo!
        Go ahead and cry you cry babies:
        \_ the author clearly doesn't understand the concept of peak oil. -tom
           \_ tom clearly didn't read #1 carefully. We've already tapped
              and used up 1 out of 6-7 units of estimated oil on earth.
              It may be true that the rest is expensive to extract but as
              technology improves they'll be cheaper to extract again.
              This explains why even though as oil gets harder and harder
              to extract, our production is still keeping up with demand,
              and the price/barrel of oil hasn't yet gone up the roof.
                 What do you call that?
              \_ Look, I don't know when peak oil is going to happen.  It
                 might have already happened, it might be five years away,
                 it might be 15.  But it's not a whole lot more than that.
                 If you compare the marginal cost of extracting oil from
                 a 1950 Texas oil field (drill a hole and get a bucket),
                 with the cost and time required to build up infrastructure
                 to, for example, extract oil from the Candian oil sands,
                 it should be obvious how large the problem facing us is.
                 Technology is never going to make it as easy to get oil
                 from rocks as it is to get it from a well.  Demand will
                 keep going up, and production will plateau.  Then what?
                 The invisible hand won't solve this one for you, any more
                 than it solved the tree shortage problem on Easter Island.
                 \_ If history taught us anything, it's that making 'never'
                    predictions that don't actually follow from laws of
                    physics is stupid.
                    \_ Does it count as a law of physics that you can burn
                       oil but you can't burn sand?  -tom
                       \_ You can't burn water either, but that doesn't
                          affect the viability of hydroelectric power.
                          \_ It does affect the viability of hydroelectric
                             power for use in passenger automobiles. -tom
                             \_ Are you saying shale oil is somehow magically
                                different and can't be used in cars?  WTF!
                                \_ Uh, no, try to keep up.  Water can't be
                                   used in cars.  Shale oil can be used, but
                                   when you look at it on a BTU/kilo basis,
                                   it's really not close to competitive with
                                   well oil.  -tom
                                   \_ So when you said "you can burn oil but
                                      can't burn sand" you were just being
                                      dumb?  Check.
                                      \_ Uh, no, you still aren't getting it.
                                         Well oil is *very easy to turn into
                                         a fuel*.  You can light it with a
                                         match.  Sand/rock infused with oil
                                         *is not very easy to turn into a
                                         fuel*.  You need huge energy-intensive
                                         operations to extract the usable
                                         fuel source.  The best technology
                                         can hope to do is get the net energy
                                         difference within an order of
                                         magnitude.  -tom
           \_ the author's argument around point #2 that there *is* a
              substitute for oil is very weak. nuclear is no substitute as
              a vehicle fuel.
              \_ Electric vehicles.
                 \_ Cars maybe, but theres the whole issue of switching the
                    infrastructure over, as well as battery life and vehicle
                    But what about about planes?  Without oil, commercial
                    aviation is dead.
                    \_ you forgot to mention plastics
                    \_ Blimps!
                       \_ I'm Blip Guy #1 Fan!  You rock, Blimp Guy!
                    \_ You don't need that much additional infrastructure to
                       charge the vehicle in your garage with 110V or 240V
                       overnight, which is what most people will do.  We do
                       need some new "electric stations", but they won't be as
                       needed as gas stations where everyone must go now.
        \_ It is pretty funny that this article is only two years old and
           most of its predictions are already wrong. Gasoline prices have
           gone through the roof, people are driving less and the cites
           are booming. The only one he might end up being right on is
           the idea that there are good substitutes for gasoline: the
           jury is still out on that one.
                       \_ We have nowhere near enough power for everyone to
                          plug in their electric car at home; and how do you
                          deal with long trips?
                          \_ Above already said we'd need a few stations, just
                             not nearly as many as now for those long trips.
                             \_ yes, and how would it work?  You drive 100
                                miles, and then plug in and sit there for
                                two hours while your battery charges?
                                \_ That's where plug-in hybrid comes to play.
                                   \_ which requires gas.
                                      \_ For daily commute, no it uses energy
                                         from the electric grid.  For the
                                         occasional long trips or when you
                                         forgot to plug-in, yes it uses energy
                                         from gasoline.
                                         \_ the electric grid requires gas.
                                            \_ Check out point #2 in
                                               \_ California's "clean electric
                                                  system" is predominantly
                                                  natural gas.
                                                  \_ Depends on which year
                                                     you're looking at:
                                                     Anyway, natural gas is
                                                     even cleaner than coal,
                                                     which further makes the
                                                     faq's point.
                                                     \_ and further misses the
                                                        point that a plug-in
                                                        hybrid is dependent
                                                        on cheap oil.
                                                        \_ ???
                                                        \_ What?  As I pointed
                                                           out a few posts
                                                           above, it depends on
                                                           oil only during the
                                                           occasional long
                                                           trips or when you
                                                           forget to plug-in.
                                                           It's not a complete
                                                           solution.  Nobody
                                                           said it's a silver
                          \_ That's why I said charging them overnight, when
                             the electricity demand is low currently.
                             \_ it wouldn't be low anymore if everyone were
                                charging their cars.
                                \_ Then good, higher percentage of the grid's
                                   capacity will be utilized around the clock
                                   instead of only during daytime.
                                   \_ try the calculation.
                                      \_ What calculation do you need to show
                                         that higher usage will utilize more
                                         capacity?  Or do you think that higher
                                      \_ What kind of calculation do you need
                                         to demonstrate that higher usage will
                                         utilize more capacity?  Or do you have
                                         some calculation to show that higher
                                         usage will utilize less capacity?
                                         \_ calculate the capacity required
                                            to charge everyone's car at the
                                            same time.
                                            \_ Thanks to, here's what
                                               I posted last October:
                    vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv quote vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
                    \_ Here's the math.  Say during one full day's driving,
                       your car needs to output the equivalent of 200hp lasting
                       10min (very unlikely) and not re-capturing any of this
                       via re-generative brakes.  That's 33.3hp-hr.  Say you
                       charge your car between 10pm-8am.  Then the charger
                       needs to provide power at 3.33hp.  That's 2485.7W,
                       which is about the same as two hair driers.  Of course,
                       since neither charging nor motor-driving are 100%
                       efficient, in reality you need more than two hair
                       driers' power to provide 200hp-10min's of driving.
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /quote ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                               Also see the wind energy post
                                               from someone else in the same
                                               See also the wind energy post by
                                               someone else in the same thread.
        \_ Wow, you are so afraid of honest debate that you just deleted my
           message? I guess I will repost it, though if you are going to be
           that childish, why not just post it on a read only blog?
           I said that three of his four points have already been shown
           to be wrong, even in the short two years since he posted this.
           Oil prices have continued to rise, driving is down and the
           cities are booming. The only one of his predictions that has
           even a chance of coming true is the one about alternative
           replacements for gasoline and the jury is still out on that one.
           \_ I didn't delete your post, someone else did. Your silly
              cost/barrel chart proves that the cost/barrel goes up, but
              we all know that the cost/barrel has little correlation with
              the cost/@the pump. Only time will tell who is right, but
              throughout the history of mankind almost all apocalyptic
              predictions (including the ones from Kunstler) have been
              proven to be wrong. The market will self adjust, it always
              does. Sorry but you urbanites are too dense to realize this.
              \_ Sure, it will adjust and those that bet on the continuation
                 of cheap oil will go through a painful re-adjustment period.
              \_ What does "the market will self-adjust" mean?  When the
                 Norse colony in Greenland died out, that could be construed
                 as "the market" adjusting to poor resource usage.  That's
                 great for the market.  It wasn't so great for the Norse in
                 Greenland who starved to death.  -tom
                 \_ It's curious you use the example of the Norse Greenland
                    colonies since such colonies were never economically
                    self-sufficient, had little economic reason to exist,
                    and certainly were not established for 'market reasons.'
                    \_ How is any of that relevant?  The U.S. wasn't
                       established for market reasons and isn't economically
                       self-sufficient.  The free market doesn't guarantee
                       the continued existence of the U.S., or continued
                       existence of U.S. culture, or the continued existence
                       of the people anywhere who rely on cheap fossil fuels.
                       The world won't end because of peak oil, but it is
                       entirely possible that societies, including ours,
                       could collapse as a result of it.  -tom
                       \_ The US wasn't established for market reasons?
                          I bet to differ. It is the main reason it was
                          I beg to differ. It is the main reason it was
                          established. As for society, it existed before
                          oil and it will exist in some form after oil.
                          \_ Yes, it will.  The only question is how much
                             pain it will take to get to the "after oil"
                             state.  The more quickly we move now, the
                             less pain there will be.  If we keep going ahead
                             with the assumption that technology will save
                             us, it will be extremely painful.  -tom
                       \_ I ll tell you what tom.  Are you willing to make
                          a concrete enough prediction about peak oil and
                          our society that you will be willing to put money on
                          it?  Put it here on the motd, and if we truly disagree
                          about odds of collapse, one of us will eventually
                          make some money off this.  If you can't make things
                          concrete enough for a bet it's just vague
                          it?  Put it here on the motd, and if we truly
                          disagree about odds of collapse, one of us will
                          eventually make some money off this.  If you can't
                          make things concrete enough for a bet it's just vague
                          doommongering.  -- ilyas
                          \_ I see nothing wrong with vague doom mongering.
                             It can be kinda fun and sometimes someone posts
                             a link with interesting info.  Everything doesn't
                             have to be a bet.
                          \_ I bet that nominal gasoline prices will double
                             in the next five years. Put $20 on it? -ausman
                             \_ I bet they won't. Here's $20 that says gas
                                will not be $8/gallon in 2012. --dim
                                \_ Average gasoline price in the US is $3.076
                                   accoring to the DOE:
                                   So doubling would be $6.15. Still up for it?
                                   \_ It's $3.50 where I am. So how about
                                      $7.00? I don't know the market in BFE.
                                      \_ Nope. I am being very generous as
                                         it is. -ausman
                                \_ is that an inflation adjusted doubling?  If
                                   not we'll see gas go up by nearly that
                                   amount just due to inflation.  sucker bet.
                                   \_ you think prices nearly double in five
                                      years based on inflation?  What do you
                                      think the inflation rate is?
                             \_ Dear ausman, if you are willing to put in
                                another $20, I ll take that bet along with
                                dim. -- ilyas
                                \_ $20 on $6.15/gallon according to DOE on
                                   6/15/2012 it is. -ausman
                          \_ I'm already betting on peak oil; I have
                             investments in solar (on my house as well as
                             money in solar companies), and I'm moving money
                             to countries which are less oil-dependent (such
                             as Brazil).  And I'm already making money off
                             it, thanks.  -tom
                             \_ Funny, I am betting on peak oil by putting
                                money in the Oil Majors, who hold lots of
                                oil reserves, the value of I expect to
                                oil reserves, the value of which I expect to
                                \_ How about this, ilyas, why don't you
                                   short oil futures for your side of the
                                   bet.  -tom
                                   \_ pp wasn't me.  For future reference
                                      any thread where I sign my name, I will
                                      consistently sign my name. -- ilyas
                                      \_ fine.  Now are you shorting oil
                                         futures?  -tom
                                         \_ I don't think shorting oil futures
                                            would be a wise move.  Perhaps
                                            you misunderstood the point of
                                            my proposal.  Making a bettable
                                            prediction makes very crisp and
                                            clear the exact nature of our
                                            disagreement.  We may both agree
                                            oil is going to get more expensive,
                                            but we may disagree about the
                                            magnitude, etc.  I don't just
                                            mean 'put your money behind
                                            energy sources you believe in,' but
                                            'put your money behind specific
                                            testable claims about peak oil
                                            you are making.'  If you aren't
                                            willing to put money behind
                                            a concrete claim, you aren't
                                            really making any claims. -- ilyas
                                            really making any claims.  ausman's
                                            bet is a good example of the
                                            kind of thing I am talking about.
                                              -- ilyas
                                            \_ I'm not making claims, other
                                               than that peak oil is a real
                                               phenomenon and it will greatly
                                               impact the U.S. at some point.
                                               I don't have enough detailed
                                               information to say whether
                                               that's now or 20 years from
                                               now.  I wouldn't be willing
                                               to get on ausman's side of the
                                               above bet.
                                               But I am confident enough in
                                               the general trend to invest
                                               significant personal finances
                                               based on my understanding of
                                               the issues.   I guess you
                                               think a silly MOTD bet would
                                               be more meaningful.  Whatever.
        \_ The author does the usual sloppy job of trying to "debunk" peak
           oil with stupid statements about known reserves in 1920, and
           ignoring facts like how oil production in the USA has been declining
           for 35 years straight now, even with vastly improved extraction
           and exploration technology.  Again, the problem is not "running
           out of oil".  There may still in fact be 7 trillion or 100 trillion
           or 100 quadrillion barrels of recoverable oil on the planet.  The
           problem is that we can't pump it up quickly or producing it is a net
           energy loser.  The end result is less net energy available for our
           growing economy.  A simple analogy would be trying to get rich by
           stealing gold from Fort Knox 1 gram at a time.  Even though there
           might be billions of dollars sitting in the vault, you'll never get
           rich this way.
2007/6/14 [Uncategorized] UID:46939 Activity:nil
6/13    Robbin Williams-- totally annoying. I'm boycotting all of his movies.
2007/6/14 [Uncategorized] UID:46940 Activity:high
6/13    tom holub, are you related to dean kunstler?
        \_ uh, what?  -tom
2007/6/14 [Uncategorized] UID:46941 Activity:nil
6/13    Spielberg endorses Hillary. Jews & Democrats conspiracy no
        longer a myth.
2007/6/14 [Uncategorized] UID:46942 Activity:nil
6/13    Ross the Intern is gay. Flamingly gay.
2007/6/14 [Uncategorized] UID:46943 Activity:low
6/13    "It does fit a pattern that we see throughout the region, which is
        that when you see things moving towards success, or when you see signs
        of success, that there are acts of violence."
        --Tony Snow
        \_ This explains why no one has thrown a punch at Tony Snow.
2007/6/14 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:46944 Activity:nil
6/13    Watch this real 4x4 (not your SUV) climb a rock - vertically.
        Stupid spectators though.
2007/6/14 [Uncategorized] UID:46945 Activity:nil
6/13    Does anyone know the name of this hot model?  Thanks (NSFW)
2007/6/14 [Recreation/Humor] UID:46946 Activity:nil
6/13    some of these are really funny
        'hansi, the girl who loved swastikas'
        \_ locked down now.
2007/6/14-18 [Recreation/Dating] UID:46947 Activity:nil
        Welch's Grape Juice Commercial. Too cute or too disgusting?
        cute: ...
        \_ Neither.  What's so special about it?  I don't get it.
        \_ "It's also very good for you too."  Where's the grammar police?
        \_ Now this is the disgusting one:
        \_ don't watch commercials: .
2007/6/14-19 [Recreation/Activities] UID:46948 Activity:nil
6/14    Is cron dead?  My cron job hasn't been running since yesterday morning.
        \_ You mean it's worked for you before? As far as I know many of the
           system cron jobs on soda don't get run. Wall log rotation and
           locatedb are just two examples.
           \_ Probably because cron isn't actually running.
           \_ My job last ran around 5am yesterday.  -- OP
              \_ Now (6/15) It's running again.  Someone must have fixed it.
                 Thx.  -- OP
2007/6/14-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46949 Activity:kinda low
        Hamas routing larger Fatah security forces, may take over Gaza
        territory from Palestian unity government.  Fear is that Gaza
        will become a "full terrorist state".
        Abbas to dissolve unity government, call for new elections, buying
        undetermined amount of time where Hamas is not officially in power.
        \_ Hamas is won the election fair and square.  It is Abbas, USA,
           Israel and other nations who really need to get over the fact that
           Hamas won.
           \_ Does "getting over the fact that Hamas won" imply that we should
              resume paying them 100s of millions of dollars?  'Cause, you
              know, I think it would be pretty dumb to fund their war against
              \_ If "democracy in Middle East" is something we are preaching,
                 then, we should stick with it.  We've toppled democratatically
                 elected government in the past (Iran, Guatamola, Chili), none
                 of them turned out to be too well.  Further, we should of
                 given Hamas a chance.  Many political groups use their radical
                 rhetric to win power.  Many of them, once the responsibility
                 of running a country cast upon them, they become a lot more
                 If you have any clue, you would know that Isareli's biggest
                 problem is not some strong state which seek for its
                 destruction, rather, anarchy and weak governments which have
                 little controls over their radical elements.  Unfortuantely,
                 neither Israeli government nor USA seems to understand that;
                 each military incursion only weakens PLO/Lebonese governments
                 even further.
           \_ And executions of their political opposition in the street is
              really democratic.  But you're right, let's just move on and
              get over it and send more money to their Swiss bank accounts
              and to fund their terrorism against Israel and now their own
              people.  You're on message, troll.
              \_ After decades of undermining the PLA, blowing up its buildings,
                 and assassinating its leaders, Isreal is shocked, just shocked
                 to watch the government collapse. You reap what you sow.
              \_ attack on Israel per se is not "terrorism."  Some of Israeli
                 tactics are not exactly abeit by IRC/UN standard neither.
                 The truth is, we don't know how Hamas is going to react
                 if Hamas actually had a chance to run a government.  My
                 feeling is that they would of be so consumed by the daily
                 grind that little action would of taken against the Israeli.

                 What we are doing (boycotting Hamas' legitiment government)
                 is undermining our message to the greater Middle East.  We
                 again and again supports absolute monarchies (Saudi Arabia,
                 Kuwait, Jordan), waging/waged war agaist countried where
                 oil money is actually belong to the state instead of royal
                 families (Iraq and Iran).  Now, we are underming legitiment
                 Palestinian government just because we don't like them.  If
                 you are a young, unemployed Arab teenager male, what would
                 you believe?  All these things USA is doing is for the sake
                 of democracy?  or USA just a big attack dog for Israel and
                 in the mean time extract petro from Musleum land?
              \_ After decades of undermining the PLA, blowing up its
                 buildings, and assassinating its leaders, Isreal is
                 shocked, just shocked to watch the government collapse.
                 You reap what you sow.
                 \_ Some Palestinians are grimly joking that this is the
                    Two Party solution mentioned elsewhere.
           Some good political cartoons over the last few days.
           \_ This word "good", I don't think it means what you think it means.
              \_ So few on the motd have any sense of humor, that I can't take
                 your opinion seriously.  I liked them. -!pp
        \_ But they were elected, so we should let them take power by force to
           show our support of Democracy.
           \_ Yeah, see, this is where that whole binary thought-process gets
              \_ it's matter of pricinple.  You can't undermining a
                 democratically elected government on one hand and claiming
                 you are building one in Iraq at the same time.
              \_ Mushroom cloud over major American city >>> free elections
           \_ Democratize or I'll shoot you.
        \_ This is what Israel has been aiming for all along:
2007/6/14-19 [Uncategorized] UID:46950 Activity:nil
6/14    I love this commercial
2007/6/14-16 [Recreation/Dating, Recreation/Celebrity/ParisHilton, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:46951 Activity:nil 66%like:46934
6/14    I figured out where motd boob guy went
        \_ I, for one, fully support American effort to remove any chance of
           feelings of embarassment in our children.  We must shelter them from
           reality until they are at least 26!
           \_ Paris Hilton is 26.  Clearly your plan hasn't worked.  Let's
              push that back to 30 and revisit in 4 years.
              \_ *shudder* I can now see Paris Hilton relating to the age of
                 sheltering much as Mickey Mouse relates to length of copy-
                 \_ So you figure 75+ years after her death is a good number?
        \_ Must be all that hormone in the cow milk we drink.
2007/6/14-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:46952 Activity:nil
6/14    this is AMAZING
        \_ Keywords: worm, ass, NSFW
           And no, I didn't watch it. I figured it out from the comments.
           \_ Great, so motd boob guy is now motd butt worm guy?
              \_ I'd rather have motd boob guy around instead of
                 motd butt worm guy.  how about you?
2007/6/14-19 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:46953 Activity:low
6/14    Look Mr. Urbanite. Many people don't want your urban lifestyle.
        I prefer to trade an hour of traffic for 12 hours of country
        living serenity. I grew up in Plano TX with strip malls and
        office parks and I LIKE IT ok? Stop imposing your beliefs on
        others. Fucking communist.
        \_ there may have been a time where Plano TX was a sustainable
           lifestyle, with its gas guzzling a beautiful mini-malls-
           however that time has passed.  The rest of us live in the
           present and in reality.  Won't you join us?
        \_ ??? s/Many people/I/g
        \_ I realize this is a troll, but wouldn't you rather have
          a nice quiet train speedily take you to your country castle?
          Or is sitting in a mass of motionless cars filled with toxic
          fumes part of your fantasy?  Also, you could always go get
          a job in Tracy or wherever it is you are thinking.
          \_ nice quiet train?  like BART? with all the rifraff and homeless
             folks making noise and stinking up the place?
             \_ You must be riding a very different bart then am I.  Oh
                wait... you DON'T ride bart.
                \_ I've ridden BART on/off to work for about 10 years.  Some
                   days are good days.  Other days are far worse than mere
                   "rifraff and homeless folks making noise" the above person
                   is complaining about.  Maybe you got the special executive
                   bart car the public isn't allowed to ride?
                   \_ Maybe I've lived in cities and don't fear the other.
                      \_ You're a superior form of life.  Yawn.  Come back to
                         reality for a bit and you'll see how things really
                         are.  And oh hey, here's a shocker for you: you are
                         not the only person to have ever lived in a city.
                         \_ Bart is not a problem.  No really, I've had
                            very few problems with people on Bart being
                            obnoxious to a point where it bothered me.
                            Much less so than, say, obnoxious drivers on
                            the roads I drive.  Now the bus systems around
                            here on the other hand, they can get pretty bad.
                            There's some bus lines I just refuse to take
                            because the psycho percentage is just too damn
                            \_ Maybe I've lived in cities and don't fear the
                               other.  I've never had a problem on the bus.
             \_ right... so we need a better transit system... which was the
                point.  Your prisons are in your mind.
             Sitting?  crowded trains have most of the folks standing.
             Speedily?  When theres no traffic, the train is 1/2 to 1/3 as
             fast as driving.
             The biggest problem with public transit is ... the public ride it.
             - Regular Bart Commuter
             \_ I ride BART everyday and I usually get a seat. I wish
                they were a bit cleaner, but I like sharing the car with
                my fellow citizens, many of whom are cute girls. Maybe
                I am just not the misanthrope you are.
                \_ So you're one of those guys that harasses the girls so
                   much other people have to intervene?
             \_ One time a guy near me spent the entire trip masturbating
                through his sweatpants. Maybe it was motd boob guy. There was
                a 10yo city kid who found this quite amusing. See, that kid
                would never experience that if it weren't for public transit.
                \_ I have seen people masturbating and even getting a blowjob
                   in their cars. At least on the train, you might be able
                   to complain to someone and get them to stop.
                   \_ Complain to someone? I'm from Plano TX. I shot his
                      balls off!
        \_ it is quite sad that there many who grow up in urban
           areas living like rats in cage.  Most of the US's pathologies
           can be attributed to the fact that a segment of the
           population who are a byproduct of that culture
           now has control of the media and government and financial
           now has control of the media, government and financial
           \_ No, people living in urban environments GET OUT and
              talk to people who aren't exactly like them.  The cage is
              outer suburbia.  Yeah it's a big cage, but it is still
              a cage.
           \_ You are right, those suburban Texans have gotten control
              of the government and made a huge mess of things. What is
              it about suburban lifestyle that causes people to end up
              so violent and selfish??
        \_ Live however you like, just stop asking the rest of us to
           subsidize your wasteful lifestyle.
           \_ But people like him subsidize your precious BART.
              \_ they don't, actually
                 \_ they do, actually. BART cost billions to build and
                    is subsidized hundreds of millions a year.
                    \_ And so are freeways.  -tom
                       \_ Plus freeways take up more land than BART tracks.
                          \_ And they are much more useful. Anyway I never
                             claimed they weren't subsidized, I responded
                             to the "wasteful lifestyle" hypocrite.
                             \_ I am a hypocrite because I use less
                                resources than you? What??? How is
                                a freeway "much more useful" than
                                BART. You know that BART carries
                                many more passengers per lane than
                                a freeway does, right?
                                \_ I don't know that you use less than me.
                                   Your life is wasteful, shouldn't you
                                   kill yourself? Stop having children
                                   if you're so worried about this.
                                   Anyway the hypocrisy was about the
                                   Freeways carry many more people than
                                   BART per day and the roads go
                                   \_ Freeways carry less people per acre
                                   \_ Freeways carry fewer people per acre
                                      of land and per dollar spent and the
                                      roads only "go everywhere" because
                                      ridiculous amounts of money have been
                                      spent on them. It is probably not
                                      possible to live in America without
                                      using something that is subsidized,
                                      so by your logic, we should all just
                                      either kill ourselves, or shut up and
                                      accept the fate determined for us by
                                      our politicians.
              \_ Automobile drivers recieve a much larger subsidy than
                 rapid transit drivers.
                 rapid transit riders.
                 \_ So stop subsidizing both and let's see what happens.
                    BART will collapse and driving will be more expensive.
                    \_ BART collapsing would be a good thing; then we could
                       get a decent rail system in the Bay Area.  -tom
                    \_ I doubt it. Since driving a car to work would end
                       up costing quite a bit more than BART, I doubt
                       BART would collapse. Home prices in the suburbs
                       might collapse though.
                       \_ But see, BART doesn't go to most people's
                          destinations or start from most people's locations.
                          People generally drive to and from it in some form.
                          Sure I'll use BART if it happens to make sense in
                          instance foo but in general it doesn't. People
                          could drive much cheaper cars if it came to that.
                          \_ I walk to BART and then walk to work from BART.
                             More people could do that. But yeah, cheaper
                             cars are a start. If everyone drove little
                             carts that got 100 mpg, that would help, but
                             those carts don't go so fast, so people would
                             have to live closer together. Then it wouldn't
                             be the glorious suburbs anymore, would it?
                             \_ You can go really fast on little motorbikes
                                or trikes. I guess the issue is mainly
                                safety when you have to share the road with
                                huge trucks. So limiting vehicle weights
                                in urban areas could help. Commercial
                                vehicles could be limited also... giant
                                trucks are often used when smaller ones
                                would suffice. Smaller ones would have
                                better performance and efficiency and at
                                worst you need to hire another driver.
                                Long haul should use rail a lot more.
                                Those big trucks damage the roads more
                                than anyone else anyway. Or maybe they
                                should use... blimps!
                                \_ Now you are talking! This is a sci-fi
                                   future I would want to live in...
                                   \_ And they should force all the little
                                      vehicles to be bright safety orange or
                                      yellow. I'm sure it would save a life
                                      now and then, and accidents slow down
                                      everyone else on the road. So allowing
                                      dull colors and blinding chrome bits etc
                                      is pretty pointless for the sake of
                                      vanity. And let's see, since the cars
                                      are so small they could have rail cars
                                      for them pretty easy, for long trips,
                                      just stack them up. And parking could
                                      be designed for them and be much more
                                      dense. You could stack them with
                                      machines, with standardized sizing
                                      and use that on those rail cars too.
                                      And the blimps could carry the same
                                      rail cars. And houses could be built
                                      with much more efficient garages and
                                      such. Oh man.
                                      \_ Did you ever see The Fifth Element?
                                         \_ Didn't it have flying cars?
                                            \_ They promised us flying cars
                                               decades ago and I'm still
                \_ I have nice quiet trains... -Smug John
2007/6/14-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:46954 Activity:nil
6/14    I eagerly await the rise of MOTD BUTT WORM GUY
        \_ how about motd cosplay boob guy
           \_ Geez, I thought it was a guy wearing fake boobs.
2007/6/14-15 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:46955 Activity:very high
6/14    I can relate having known a few guys who were not just slightly gay
        but just down right effeminate who sexually have as much straight
        sex as any guy out there. I mean it's all relative.  psb may actually
        BE gay, but if his sexual relationships have been 80% straight and
        20% gay then it just shows he can relate sexually to both genders
        right?  I think thats pretty cool myself.  I often think that if
        more macho jocks had at least one gay experience they might be
        more romantic and all around just better in bed.  I'm sure many
        might disagree though.  I would love to have sex with a guy
        like psb!
        \_ we know you would, asshole.
        \_ we know you would, kchang.
        \_ we know you would, tom holub.
           \- yikes. ok, no more csua events for me. --psb
        \_ You obviously don't know much about macho jocks and frat parties...
           \_ One of my supercute gay friends had sex with dozens of "straight"
              macho frat jock types in high school.
2007/6/14-16 [Uncategorized] UID:46956 Activity:nil
6/14    Kurt Waldheim dies at 88.  True to the last.  -John
        \_ Heil Austrian Kurt.
2007/6/14-19 [Uncategorized] UID:46957 Activity:nil
6/14    Any reason to choose one of these over the other: NetNewsWire
        or Bloglines? Thanks.
2019/09/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:June:14 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>