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| 2007/4/23-25 [Reference/Tax, Politics/Domestic/California/Prop] UID:46415 Activity:very high |
4/22 What exactly is the "maler-roos" on new properties? Why is the
property tax rate close to 2% instead of 1%?
\_ A little history on CA tax:
1978: Reaganomics advocates-- "Tax cut is good for everyone! "
Prop 13 of 1978 will cut slacks for existing land &
property owners, allow self-reliance, force government fat
to be cut, and kick start trickle-down economy!
\_ Were you here in CA in 78? Your version of how this
went down has nothing to do with reality.
1979-1981: Uh, we fucked up. We lost so much revenue that we no
longer have money to fund government fat like public parks,
new transits, new bike lanes, and public schools.
\_ New bike lanes? I'll bet they stopped funding linux too!
Schools got as much/kid then as now. It is *how* it is
spent that matters, not the total number. And the *how*
is that it is being pissed away on excess administation
and fake special programs while the bulk of students get
crap education.
\_ reference for school spending, please
\_ CA state budget is higher than ever before. 40% of
budget is mandated to be spent on schools, which was
not true in 1978. Do math.
\_ Your claim was based on $/kid; please provide a
reference. (Extra credit if it's adjusted for
inflation.) -tom
1982: Henry Mello & Mike Roos-- It's ok! We'll double the
cost of property tax for *future* homeowners and since
they're not here to speak for themselves, the Mello-Roos
Community Facilities Act will get passed easily and save
all of our problems!
\_ Because forcing old people on fixed incomes to sell their
homes so they could eat is always a good idea and the
morally right thing to do.
\_ This is, and always has been a red herring. The largest
beneficiary of Prop 13 tax cuts is not old people on
fixed incomes, but corporations. If we really cared
about old people, we could have made Prop 13 apply
only to residences, but that's not what it's about.
Corporations not only own more valuable property, they
also resell property less often. -tom
\_ I ask again: were you here in CA in 78? I was. There
were for sale signs everywhere. People were leaving
the state young and old because they couldn't afford
their property taxes. If corporations got a free ride
along the way, so be it, they weren't the ones who
voted on it, nor were they the ones who came up with
the idea.
\_ People were leaving the state because of complex
reasons. Property tax was simply one of the
many components. Trying to fix the root of the
problem by adjusting proprety tax is like
the Feds trying to stabilize an extremely
complex & globalized economy with 10000 of
knobs and switches with this single knob
called the interest rate knob. It's absurd.
\_ Were you here in 1978? I was. When your
neighbors tell you they are selling because
they can't afford it and it's the same story
in the newspapers, tv, everywhere, I'd go for
that long before I'd accept your "well there
was other stuff too but I won't mention any of
it, just claim that your thing is absurd".
None of this stuff is a big secret. Apply
browser.
\_ You keep repeating this unverified claim
that you were here in 1978. Who are you?
How old were you in 1978? How does your
anecdotal evidence outweigh all other
input to this discussion? -tom
\_ Real estate is not a large part of expenses for
most businesses. It's labor, of course. For most
corporations it's in the noise and they are
depreciating the properties anyway. Many of them
lease, too. Do you know what the average property tax
rate was before Prop 13?
\_ Throwing a lot of stuff at the wall there, aren't
you? None of it sticks; if corporations don't
mind paying more property tax, Prop 13 is totally
stupid, since it gives them more tax benefit than
it does homeowners. And whether corporations
buy or lease their space, they receive the benefits
of the lower property tax. Non-residential
property taxes *dropped* by 5% from 1991 to 2001,
during the largest increase of property values
in CA history. -tom
\_ Who gets more of a benefit?:
Me, saving $2K of my, say, $100K salary or
a corporation saving $50K of their, say, $100
million revenues? I think it's clear I do.
I am not sure I understand your last
sentence. Are you saying total revenues
dropped? You do realize that the commercial
property market was not part of 'the
largest increase in property values',
right? It's very possible that commercial
property taxes might rise even as residential
home values fall. In fact, I predict that.
\_ You really have no idea how much corporate
real estate is worth, do you? Property
taxes on a big commercial building go
into the millions of dollars. So, you
saving $2K get hurt because you lose more
than $2K worth of services due to Prop 13
and the relief it gives corporations. Plus,
cities then do things like raise sales tax
(CA: highest in nation), which, guess what,
you pay! -tom
\_ How much do you think commercial real
estate is worth? The most expensive
skyscrapers sell new for a few
hundred million dollars. Most
buildings are far less. So even if I
own 100% of the TransAmerica building
(whose property taxes are paid for by
many tenants and not just one) then
the property tax is still only a
couple of million per year. How much
in revenues is generated there? Your
typical industrial building is only
worth a few million, which is at
most 10x a house, and yet revenues
are likely much more than 10x higher.
As for sales taxes, CA's are not that
much higher than anywhere else.
\_ No matter what the corporations pay in
taxes it will get passed down to the
consumer. And corporations doing well
isn't necessarily the horrible thing you
imply considering how much retirement
money is invested in these same corps and
how many people they employ, etc. The
anti-corpo screed is insufficient to make
an honest claim that prop 13 was bad for
the people of california.
\_ It's clearly bad for everyone who
doesn't own property in CA. It's
very likely bad (negative total
ROI) for residential homeowners. It's
not even clear that homeowners pay
less tax, overall, due to Prop 13.
It's clearly good for major commercial
real estate holders. -tom
\_ It reduces carrying costs for
real estate holders, which
means they can charge less rent
and/or develop the land more
intensely. I am guessing that this
is a net benefit to the economy in
terms of taxes. Imagine if
property taxes were back at 20%
like they were. Who do you
think would be doing business
here? What would the tax base be?
Low property taxes are even
good for people who don't own
land, because they (renters and
consumers) carry the costs
anyway, as alluded to above.
\_ Corporations don't just "pass on"
costs. They charge what the
market will bear, no more and
no less. It is important to
understand the difference between
the two ideas. -ausman
\_ I understand economics, but
property tax is a fixed
cost. It will be paid
even if the land lies
fallow. (In fact, for
this reason high property
tax encourages sprawl,
since the cost of holding
land is high.) There can
be no market at all and
yet the taxes are still
due. This is different
from most expenses. The
tax represents pretty
much the baseline cost of
holding the property. If
an owner were to lease
for less than the taxes
owed, he'd rather just let
the property go rather than
take a loss on it to hold it.
So when the tax increases, so
does this "minimum rent".
E.g., I have to rent my
house for ~$400/month just
to cover the property taxes
- $700/month if I just
bought it. This is *with*
Prop 13 if I paid *cash*
for the house.
\_ BofA building just sold for $1B:
http://www.csua.org/u/ijt
\_ Which is too expensive and unusual,
as the article says. The most expensive
building in LA just sold for $600 million
and most of the office towers are ~$300M.
But even using this ($1B) figure, it's
still just $10M/year in tax. I pay
~4% of my income in property tax. If
I bought my house new it would be
~8%. So the equivalent in revenues
is still around $200M/year. I am
guessing that the businesses housed
there will have more than $200M in
revenues per year for the operations
based in that building. I am
guessing a *LOT* more, given the
(presumably high) salaries of people
working there. Actually, doing the
math in the article (1.3M sq feet @
$75/foot) shows they are hoping to
lease it for $100M/year, which means
10% of the rents would go to property
tax. Using my own house as an
example, I pay ~$24K/year rent and
$4K/year in property tax so my
burden is higher. Why would you want
to eliminate Prop 13 when it helps
me more? (Being I have a higher tax
burden.) Now factor in that most of
the corp tenants (other than the landlord)
are probably paying much less as a
percentage of revenues in property
taxes. If you double property tax
then my burden goes to, say, 33%
(where it was in the 1970s) and the
landlords goes from 10% to 20%. Who
will be more hurt by that? BofA or me?
Now, if you want to eliminate Prop
13 for commercial buildings (as some
propose) that is something else
entirely.
\_ "You're talking a lot, but you're
not saying anything."
\_ Prop 13 benefits homeowners
more than businesses. That's
the gist. To say otherwise is
ridiculous and to repeal it
completely would be ludicrous.
1990-2007: Future homeowners paying 2X property tax-- Why the
fuck is my property tax bill near 2X my parent's rate?
\_ The rates are known before you buy your house and directly
impact the sales price. If property taxes were lower the
house base price would be higher. Your monthly wouldn't
change.
\_ Google will find you more info under "Mello-Roos"
\_ The Mello-Roos Community Facilities Act of 1982 was a reaction
to 1978 Prop 13's cutting of property tax for existing home
owners while not cutting back on government spending.
In layman's explanation, Prop 13 in 1978 cut taxes while gov
fat remained so money had to come from elsewhere. Thanks to
rich people like you, your 2% prop tax (w/ Mello-Roos)
benefits everyone else, including those who are only paying
1% tax on nice (but older) homes. Thanks rich guy!
\_ This is not true. Mello-Roos is a special assessment that
applies mostly to new development, to pay for things like
sewers, roads and schools in new areas. The beneficiaries
of the tax pay the tax.
\_ Yes, it is true that the beneficiaries of the tax pay the
tax. In theory, that is absolutely correct.
\_ To some extent. In the future, the bonds will be paid
off and future owners of the same house may not pay
the tax despite being beneficiaries of it. |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Uncategorized] UID:46416 Activity:low |
4/23 Hrmmm...all of my mail disappeared over the weekend.
\_ Mail root to fix mail.
\_ Fix mail to mail root to fix mail. Recursion ftw.
\_ That's part of the new politburo's CSUA Modernization Plan.
They did an analysis on the signal/noise ratio for email over
time, plotted the curve and found that the signal will soon be
below zero, so they took the bold step of removing it all now.
To further support the Modernization Plan, they've forwarded all
their email to /dev/null.
\_ This should be self evident by now: stop using soda for mail. |
| 2007/4/23 [Uncategorized] UID:46417 Activity:high 72%like:46425 |
4/23 Sheryl Crow says you should only use 1 square of TP per sitting
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/21/AR20070\42101385_pf.html
\_ Remind me never to shake her hand.
\_ you'll never be allowed to get that close, so dont worry about
it. just buy her albums and have some bread with it and do
what you're told and all will be fine.
\_ Just don't buy one that she autographed. :-) |
| 2007/4/23-24 [Recreation/Food, Computer/Rants] UID:46418 Activity:nil 72%like:46431 |
4/23 NYTimes, reform the farm bill!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/magazine/22wwlnlede.t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Reference/Military] UID:46419 Activity:low |
4/23 http://www.csua.org/u/ijj (nytimes.com) An Accounting of Daily Gun Deaths. \_ I'm sure this would have been avoided if banned all guns. It worked in the Soviet Union, it works in China, North Korea, Cuba, and Vietnam \_ interesting that more than half (45 out of 81) are suicides \_ There are a heck of a lot of suicides by jumping in South Korea. All those 25 story apartment buildings... \_ It worked in Japan. \_ Yes, along with stripping and restructing their entire country and culture from the ground up after nuking them into submission. Is that what you suggest? \_ Actually, gun control was in place long before WW2. \_ why you are not complaining about ban on automatic rifles? anti-aircraft gun that can be use to take out escaping vehicles? how about cheap cruise missle made by the Chinese? Why there is a ban on these weapons? I mean, if we want a free society, we should have the right to buy anything we can afford, right? |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Uncategorized] UID:46420 Activity:nil |
4/23 RIP Boris Yeltsin
\_ Wow, this doesn't even make the front page of http://www.yahoo.com It
only appears in the "World" section.
\_ Yes, it did. It was a featured story this morning. |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Recreation/Dating, Consumer/TV] UID:46421 Activity:nil |
4/23 How many of you have homes that actually somewhat resemble the ones
on HGTV or Country Living magazine? My wife's been going nuts
buying things that look nice but are totally and utterly
useless. In fact, the home's is now pretty much non-functional.
In the bathroom, I have to hide my toothpaste, toothbrush, cups,
\_ What about your balls?
Are you looking for advice or just venting?
listinerine, etc. In the shower, I have to bring my own basket of
of shower gel, shampoo, conditioner, lotions, etc instead of
leaving them in the shower. The living room-- no remote, no
bills, nothing, just a plant in the middle of the coffee table,
for looks. I can hardly do anything or find anything nowadays.
I ask again, how many of you have homes that actually resemble
the ones on TV and magazines, AND still feel at home?
\_ Suggestion: Take away the TV and the magazines.
\_ I kind of have the opposite problem, in that I like everything to
be "put away" while my wife is fine with clutter. But I am not
as extreme as your wife. -ausman
\_ Nah, I'm against non-functional living conditions.
\_ Last night my wife accused me of living like I was still in high
school. (Since I don't clean up as much as she'd like.) I then
described to her how I lived in high school and early college, and
she conceeded that I had improved a lot and let it die. Go, go, low
standards!
\_ Nothing like it. Get balls or a new wife. |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Transportation/Bicycle] UID:46422 Activity:nil |
4/23 I bought a $300 Tandem bicycle from Walmart and I regret it because
it weighs almost 60 pounds and the parts started to rust after 2
months. I'm now convinced that +$1500.00 tandem bike is the way to
go and I'm wondering what you guys recommend as a lightweight,
performance orienced tandem bike? Thanks.
\_ You're right, cheap tandems are nearly unrideable. You might be
able to get a good start with Cannondale, which makes some things
in that range; they at least have frames that are stiff enough
for tandem use. Probably the most respected maker is Santana, but
that's big money. -tom |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Uncategorized] UID:46423 Activity:nil |
4/23 Thanks to the VT Killer, gun sales are going up. |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:46424 Activity:kinda low |
4/23 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/us/22vatech.html One month ago, Cho rented a van, spent an hour practicing at an indoor shooting range with his Glock, and recorded many videos in the van while parked in the range parking lot. http://tinyurl.com/ytau8u (huffingtonpost.com) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome Parents say Cho was diagnosed with autism upon arriving in U.S. More recent symptoms consistent with Asperger syndrome. "a contributing factor - compounded by vicious bullying by his peers - which led to multi-diagnosis, sociopathic rage and delusions" \_ Man murders 33 people in pre-meditated cold blood. Didn't know any of them. Diagnosis: sociopath. I didn't need a degree or a study to figure that out. \_ Autism and Asperger syndrome. If you really know what those are, I'm satisfied. \_ Autism and Asperger syndrome. Do you really know what these are? \_ Autism and Asperger syndrome. IMO you should really understand what these are - then you'll understand what I wrote. At that point it's fine by me if you return to your old conclusion. \_ I know exactly what autism and asperger's are. What does that have to do with anything? Are you trying to claim that autism/asperger's victims are more likely to be sociopathic killers? If that wasn't your point then you'll have to clarify. |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Science/Space] UID:46425 Activity:moderate 72%like:46417 |
4/23 Sheryl Crow says you should only use 1 square of TP per sitting
http://urltea.com/f50 (washingtonpost.com)
\_ Remind me never to shake her hand.
\_ you'll never be allowed to get that close, so dont worry about
it. just buy her albums and have some bread with it and do
what you're told and all will be fine.
\_ Just don't buy one that she autographed. :-)
\_ In much of the non-Western world it is common to use 0 squares of
TP per sitting. A hand and some water is all that is necessary. W
Washing your hands afterwards clears up any hygine issues.
\_ Yeah, cholera is really no big deal. I'm sure in place that
use their hand and some water that washing their hands with
clean water and anti-bacterial soap is common place. You're
joking, right?
\_ The point is that in Western countries, accesses to clean
water and soap is not a problem -- there is no reason to
toilet paper at all, recycled or otherwise.
\_ Well - we can start using a bidet (like in Europe), or get one of
those smart Japanese toilet that sprays to clean. Did I mention
it also comes with seat-warmer?
\_ Absolute luxury: http://www.washlet.com/default.asp
\_ Oh my. The demo vids are priceles..
\_ That animated guy looks like he had an orgasm with all
that anal action.
\_ How does it keep the nossle clean when it's used by more than
one person?
\_ It deploys after you've defecated. Also, the nozzle is
aimed at an angle so it's not directly under you; the jet
of water acts at a distance so there's no contact.
\_ Two words: diarrhea, explosive
\_ But when the nozzle turns on it will spray that
back onto the guy who had the diarrhea. And then
wash that off with the rest of his ass dirt.
\_ Supposed the guy with diarrhea doesn't use the
spraying function after taking a dump. Then you
take a dump and try to use the function ......
\_ Switch to 100% recycled toilet paper would help as much. One can
buy those in Safeway and Trader Joe and probably other stores. The
brand I buy actually works better than those premium extra-soft
brands. |
| 11/22 |