Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:April:11 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
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2007/4/11 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:46256 Activity:nil
4/11    Anybody know what's up with youtube?   lynx -head -dump http://www.youtube.com
        HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
2007/4/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46257 Activity:nil
4/11    Nobody wants to be the Czar:
        http://www.csua.org/u/ifz
        \_ that's weird, I thought all these neo-Cons would flock to the
           position by now.
        \_ Maybe they'd have better luck if they changed the title to Warlord.
        \_ I do.  How much does it pay?  Can I telecommute?
           \_ Everyone else has been phoning it in, so why not?
              \- The press and public should just start referring to
                 CHENEY as the WAR CZAR..
2007/4/11-12 [Health/Disease/General] UID:46258 Activity:nil
4/10    Adult stem-cell therapy may cure Type I Diabetes
   http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article1637528.ece
2007/4/11-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:46259 Activity:moderate
4/11    1 - blocking pings to Soda is stupid and
        2 - anyone ever going to rotate the wall_log?
        \_ Ok, the wall logs should be rotating now.  Sorry about that.
           (I'm guessing the ping blocking was a mistake; I'll unblock
           them as soon as I make sure.)  --mconst
        \_ It's safe to say that the current management is showing no
           interest in running the CSUA.  There's still no information
           about the organization on the web page, and no one is doing
           anything about the computing resources.  Isnt there an ASUC
           regulation that organizations must have and publicize two
           general meetings a semester?  When is the CSUA's?  -tom
           \_ in order to save the CSUA, it must be destroyed.
              \_ it just needs a small number of students who care enough
                 to put in a small amount of effort.  maybe the csua is an
                 out dated and unnecessary org?
           \_ Clearly it's not being run the way you want it to be so it must
              be falling apart.  Have you even set foot in 343 Soda in the
              last six months?  How about in the last six years? -dans
              \_ dans: you're stupid. tom graduated from the pre-Soda
                 era, like the late 80s. Try 260 Evans.
                 \_ The CSUA office was 238 Evans, not 260.  260 was the doosh
                    room.  I was outgoing VP when we were moving to soda hall
                    (I think smurf was incoming).  -tom
                 \_ I'm well aware of this fact.  In fact, it's at the heart
                    of my point: Given that tom graduated over a decade ago,
                    how is he supposed to be in tune with modern-day
                    undergrads?  I posit that, since he works on campus, he
                    could walk to 343 Soda and talk to them, but he clearly
                    has no interest in doing so. -dans
                    of my point: Given that tom graduated and/or dropped out
                    and never looked back over a decade ago, how is he supposed
                    to be in tune with modern-day undergrads?  I posit that,
                    since he works on campus, he could walk to 343 Soda and
                    talk to them, but he clearly has no interest in doing so.
                    -dans
                    \_ dans: you're stupid. tom never graduated.
                       \_ Corrected.  Mea culpa. -dans
                          \- your brain has been classified as: small
              \_ I don't exactly recall the last time I was in the CSUA
                 office, but it's been within the last year or so.  But
                 that really isn't relevant; the question is how the CSUA
                 is serving its core constituency, and the answer is
                 apparently, "not very well."  Scheduling and publicizing
                 general meetings is one of the very basic requirements
                 for being an ASUC student group, and the CSUA is failing
                 even at that.  The official way to contact the politburo
                 is through http://csua.berkeley.edu email, so having email broken
                 is also a major failure, even if email accounts for undergrads
                 aren't as important as they used to be.  -tom
                 \_ So when you visited the office, what did the folks there
                    have to say?  Did they tell you the organization was in
                    shambles, that without the glorious light of the alumni
                    (meaning you), everything had gone to shit?  Now, if the
                    question is how is the CSUA serving its core constituency,
                    and by core constituency you mean undergrads, the answer
                    is "Just fine, thank you."  The office is well populated,
                    even at the kind of weird hours CS students keep.
                    Meetings are reasonably well attended.  Services are being
                    provided to undergards, just not the services your
                    prioritize as important.  And maybe emailing politburo@csua
                    is an official way to contact the politburo, but so is,
                    oh, I don't know, showing up at a politburo meeting, which
                    has always been a better way to get the politburo's
                    attention.  I should also note that, at present, email is
                    not broken. -dans
                    \_ well, gee, when are the politburo meetings?   -tom
        \_ The annoying thing about this sort of stuff is that log rotation,
           unblocking pings, and a number of other things are trivial two
           minute fixes.  Whoever is responsible for the machines should just
           resign at this point if for whatever reason they're not taking care
           of the most basic stuff.  Yes, the CSUA is not soda, blah, blah,
           but c'mon, can't be bothered to do log rotation?  Oh well.  At
           least I'm not reading my mail here.
           \_ I have some sympathy for the argument that undergrads don't
              use wall, therefore wall log rotation is not important.  But
              that argument doesn't extend to providing basic information
              on the CSUA web page and basic services (like mail) on
              http://csua.berkeley.edu.  -tom
           \_ "He may have been a fascist, but the wall logs rotated on time"
              \_ Last I checked maintaining the systems was the VP's job.  If
                 the current VP isn't doing that, whatever, just resign and
                 let someone else do it.  I never understood why people cling
                 to volunteer jobs they don't want to do.
                 \_ How about because no one else wants to do it.  How about
                    because it's a thankless job where the job holder spends
                    most or all of his time being berated by people like tom
                    for a job he or she volunteered to do. -dans-dans
                    \_ Ah the cycle of incompetence and obsolescence.
              \_ Every time I have set foot in the CSUA office in the last
                 12months at least, I've observed a number of people who
                 12 months at least, I've observed a number of people who
                 look like geeks from central casting [pasty thin, fat doughy]
                 playing video games. As an above posters suggest, we're not
                 playing video games. As an above poster suggests, we're not
                 talking about competing resouces [do we keep the office
                 door open, or fix log rotation], and adequate or even
                 door open, or fix log rotation], and adquetate or even
                 superlative performance on one front isnt exculpatory on
                 the other. When the machine went down for weeks [unprecidented
                 in CSUA history before the last year], what they were to be
                 faulted for was the lack of communication more than not
                 fixing it quickly. Make all the excuses you want, but if you
                 feel alumni involvement has value for the CSUA [to wit:
                 Riverbed inquiry above], you are killing that branch of the
                 tree. These comments about "what have you done to help"
                 are by and large silly, as the people involved int eh
                 public debates are by and large people who have "served"
                 or donated or have volunteered to help, but had their
                 overtures rebuffed. Although I suppose the current lazy
                 \_ Past service does not give us any right to force our
                    approach on the current administration.  A donation with
                    an expecation of a quid pro quo is a purchase, not a
                    donation.  Did it ever occur to you that there might be a
                    good reason why offers of assistance are refused? -dans
                 administration is better than a certain earlier psychotic
                 one ["do not blacklist me!"].
                 \_ Agreed.  The alumni are extremely valuable.  Two important
                    post college jobs came directly or indirectly through
                    Soda. !(tom || dans)
                    \_ The funny thing is, we've now had, what, a year of an
                       alumni relations politburo officer, and so far all
                       it has produced is a bunch of shut off accounts,
                       and silly blithering from dans.  -tom
                 \_ This is where I disagree with you.  I don't think the
                    alumni add significant value to the CSUA when it comes to
                    day to day operations.  If someone offers help, and then
                    gets pissed if the offer is ignored or refused, that person
                    is not an altruist, he's an asshole.  It's one thing for
                    alumni to help people find jobs, offer intelligence on
                    industry, or donate hardware or funds.  The alumni are
                    well equipped to do these things.  It's another thing
                    entirely to tell the undergrads how they should run the
                    organization, and, yes, administering the machines is part
                    of running the organization.  Beginning the moment someone
                    graduates, drops out, or fucks off to parts unknown, he
                    becomes increasingly less relevant to the day to day
                    operations of the CSUA.  I'm not arguing in support of
                    incompetence, I'm arguing in support of self-determination.
                    Many alumni, e.g. tom, don't understand the difference
                    because they are stuck on an idealized view of "how
                    things should be done." -dans
                    \_ "You should have a web page, the email address you
                       publish as a contact should work, and you should
                       publicize your meetings" is certainly not
                       an idealized view of how things should be done; it's
                       a complete baseline for what it means to be a
                       student group.
                       And how do you expect alumni to find people jobs
                       or offer intelligence on the industry when
                       *absolutely nothing is being done to connect
                       alumni with the organization*?  -tom
                       \_ And this last paragraph is the key point.  If it
                          sucks to use soda why would alumni login?  If they
                          don't login to soda how else are they going to stay
                          in touch with the org?  Telling them they need to go
                          out of their way to show at politburo meetings as a
                          requirement to assist future generations is utterly
                          ridiculous and a red herring.
                          \_ Let me be clear here: I am not even arguing that
                             the current politburo should definitely restore
                             soda to its pre-dans state.  I would personally
                             like to see that happen, but I acknowledge that
                             the relevance of MOTD and wall for current
                             undergraduates is extremely low, and those
                             mechanisms really aren't creating connections
                             between undergrads and alumni.  But what I am
                             arguing is that if the CSUA wants to
                             deemphasize or significantly change soda, it
                             should be as the result of a policy decision,
                             with specific plans for productive alternatives.
                             dans's blithering takes as an assumption that
                             the current politburo's negligence is the result
                             of a policy decision, but I don't think there's
                             any evidence of that.  If the politburo were
                             to say "we're killing wall and MOTD and
                             installing phpBB and WordPress," there would
                             at least be a way to defend that action.  But
                             as it is, they're simply being negligent.  -tom
                             \_ I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.  I
                                think it's silly to have an Alumni Rep and
                                some level of desire to have contact with
                                alums but then insist that anyone not showing
                                at a meeting is a useless alum.  The fact is
                                that soda is the easiest way for alums to stay
                                in touch.  If the current undergrads aren't
                                into that, oh well.  If the machine eventually
                                goes away completey, oh well.  The alumns
                                don't lose all that much.  With people all
                                over the industry and academia this is a good
                                place to make contacts and ask questions.  At
                                the end of the day success isn't about your
                                gpa or the name of your school on your degree,
                                it is about who knows you and is willing to
                                help out.  Kill soda or leave it semi-broken
                                and alums will leave.  A lot have already.  Sad
                                but oh well.  Maybe it has served its purpose
                                and it is time to just shut it down and walk
                                away.
                             \_ Alternatively, perhaps the issue isn't
                                negligence, perhaps they're just tired of
                                dealing with heavy-handed, self-righteous
                                pricks like tom. -dans
                                \_ What the fuck? You can't blame tom, tom
                                   is taking the time to whine on motd but
                                   according to you motd is irrelevant anyway.
                                \_ They're tired of dealing with pricks like
                                   me, so they sit in the office playing WoW,
                                   don't publicize their meetings, and break
                                   the email server?  Great student group. -tom
                                \_ "No man is an island, entire of itself;
                                   every man is a piece of the continent, a
                                   part of the main. If a clod be washed away
                                   by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as
                                   if promontory were, as well as if a manor
                                   of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any
                                   man's death diminishes me, because I am
                                   involved in mankind; and therefore never
                                   send to know for whom the bell tolls; it
                                   tolls for thee."
                                   \_ Q: How is sitting in the office playing
                                      WoW qualitatively different than sitting
                                      in the office playing nettrek? -dans
                                      \_ Well, for one thing, the nettrek
                                         players managed to keep soda up,
                                         keep mail up, and run publicized
                                         meetings all while avoiding
                                         BASE OGG!!!!!!!!
                                         \_ Thank you for making the point I
                                            would have.  I'm sure I played
                                            more netrek than they play WoW,
                                            but I managed to effectively
                                            run a much more difficult hardware
                                            and software setup, and also
                                            publish information about our
                                            meetings and help sessions.
                                            (Are there any help sessions?
                                            Nothing on the web since
                                            Spring '06).  -tom
                                \_ "No man is an island, entire of itself;
                                   every man is a piece of the continent, a
                                   part of the main. If a clod be washed away
                                   by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as
                                   if promontory were, as well as if a manor
                                   of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any
                                   man's death diminishes me, because I am
                                   involved in mankind; and therefore never
                                   send to know for whom the bell tolls; it
                                   tolls for thee."
                                            \_ Thank you for making my point:
                                               Let me paraphrase our
                                               conversation for clarity:
                                               tom: Back in my day we had to
                                                walk uphill to and from the
                                                machine room and ran the
                                                machines smoothly at great risk
                                                to life and limb (the machines
                                                exploded back in my day) and
                                                played net trek to boot!  The
                                                CSUA was awesome back in my
                                                day, they should run it my way!
                                               dans: Then why don't you help?
                                               tom: Oh, the politburo hasn't
                                                responded to my emails in five
                                                years.
                                               dans: Think there might be a
                                                reason for that?
                                               tom: Back in my day we had to
                                                walk uphill to and from the
                                                machine room and ran the
                                                machines smoothly at great risk
                                                to life and limb (the machines
                                                exploded back in my day) and
                                                played net trek to boot!  The
                                                CSUA was awesome back in my
                                                day, they should run it my way!o
                                                day, they should run it my way!
                                               dans: Uh huh.
                                               -dans
                                               \_ Let me paraphrase our
                                                  conversation:
                                                  dans: I'm an idiot.
                                                  tom: Yes, obviously.
                                                    -tom
                                                  \_ And you wonder why people
                                                     think you're such an
                                                     asshole that they simply
                                                     cease communication with
                                                     you.
                                                     -dans
2007/4/11-12 [Science/GlobalWarming, Science/Physics] UID:46260 Activity:high
4/11    Motd poll:  What do you think the Easter Islander that chopped down
        the last Easter Island tree was saying as he did it?
        "Jobs, not trees!":
        "Technology will solve our problems, never fear, we'll find a
        substitute for wood.":
        "We don't have proof that there aren't palm trees somewhere else
        on Easter, we need more research, your proposed ban on logging
        is premature and driven by fear-mongering":
        "this is gonna make a nice fire to cook my dinner on"
        "I better take this tree now, before my neighbor does"
        \_ "This ought to make sierra-club libural hippies in SF cry."
           \_ You sure are smart.
        "Jobs, not trees!":
        "Technology will solve our problems, never fear, we'll find a
        substitute for wood.":
        "We don't have proof that there aren't palm trees somewhere else
        on Easter, we need more research, your proposed ban on logging
        is premature and driven by fear-mongering":
        "this is gonna make a nice fire to cook my dinner on"
        "I better take this tree now, before my neighbor does"
        \_ On a funny note, I saw a Fox news blurb yesterday about how
           trees may cause global warming.
        \_ "I'm sure this isn't _really_ the last tree."
        \_ "As history has demonstrated, we will always invent newer and
           newer technologies to locate more and more trees that we can't see
           now as tree-cutting rate goes up and up.  These will include, but
           not limited to, technologies to find transparent trees, trees that
           float at 20000ft altitude, quantum trees that have no fixed
           position, as well as anti-metter trees.  Our tree supply will be
           limitless."
        \_ Whatever they said, if they said anything, I'm sure it wasn't
           in English.  ;-)
        "You've seen one tree, you've seen 'em all."
2007/4/11-12 [Transportation/Bicycle] UID:46261 Activity:moderate
4/11    I have a full carbon body bike with Shimano DuraAce components.
        \_ Oh, yeah?  Well, my kung fu is the best!
        \_ I have a titanium bike with DuraAce components!  My frame will last
           hundreds of years.
        \_ My Shimano DuraAce component is bigger than yours!
        \_ I just ate a tasty piece of baklava.
        \_ I have a gun.
        \_ Don Imus fails, while Michael Savage succeeds.  Why?
           \_ Don Imus cried for the cameras.  MS says "screw you".  This has
              nothing to do with bikes or anything else but whatever.
2007/4/11-16 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:46262 Activity:low
4/11    New York City produces 1% of the nation's greenhouse gas emission.  But
        wait, the city has 2.7% of the country's population.  That's pretty
        good.  http://www.csua.org/u/ig7 (Yahoo! News).
        I wonder how the Bay Area cities rank.
        \_ Im pulling this out of my ass but I bet most New Yorkers dont drive,
           in a car, to work.
           \_ I like to type, using commas, at random, places.
           \_ Yeah, the article mentioned the city's mass transit system as the
              \_ Yo,ur ,gra,mmar is te,h suk!!,!  You, don,t kno,w how t,o use
                 comma,s.
                 \_ Uhh, the out of my ass line is not correct.
                    \_ Most New Yorkers, do in fact commute by transit.
                     \_ I'm talking sentance structure, not facts.
                        \_ Good thing you are not talking spelling.
           \_ Yeah, the article mentions the city's mass transit system as the
              major factor.   -- OP
        \_ And it's populated almost entirely by liberals!
           \_ I bet a significant chunk of Brooklyn, the largest borough,
              are NY Post reading driving conservatives. USA USA USA
        \_ Well, in general rural areas tend to use more energy.
        \_ Similarly, Western Europe per-capita energy use is half of ours.
           It's partly mass transit, but even more than that, it's about
           designing liveable human spaces.  -tom
           \_ Excuse me? Packed like a sardine can in a 800sqft 2 bdrm
              apartment and not having the freedom to do yard work or
              running around in the backyard is considered liveable human
              space? Sorry buddy you should take your communist propaganda
              back to Russia
              \_ I don't think Tom's from Russia.
              \_ Yes, we need more lebensraum!  Heil!
              \_ you really should get a perspective on how humans live.
                 (As distinct from "Americans").  -tom
                 \_ How most humans on this planet live is not in doubt.  They
                    live worse than most animals.  How humans *should* live and
                    what "liveable human spaces" *are* is the question.  Packed
                    like sardines is not a "liveable human space".
                    \_ You will find out otherwise when gasoline goes to
                       $10 gallon. Which will happen sooner than you think.
                       \_ Uh, what?  I'll find out what?
              \_ Why not run around in shared spaces? 90% of the time your
                 precious backyard sits there unused.
                 \_ That is how it is done in Russian tenement housing.
                 \_ Do you share your apartment with everyone who walks by?
                    Of course not.  Why not?  Because you need your own
                    personal space.  And it is being used 100% of the time.
                    It exists to put distance between you and your neighbors.
                    Good fences make good neighbors and all that.
                    \_ Define "need".  -tom
                       \_ "need": I won't quote the dictionary at you.  By need
                          I mean that people have a psychological need for some
                          private space and time to 'get away from it all'.  Do
                          you disagree?  Or do you just think that going
                          camping or skiing every so often is enough?
                          \_ I think that the fact that the vast majority of
                             the human population does not segment itself off
                             from other humans indicates that the need for
                             community is stronger than the need for
                             private space.  I think there is also research
                             to support that concept.  The faceless subdivision
                             is something that's been marketed and sold to
                             Americans; it is most assuredly not the ultimate
                             expression of the human condition.  And, faceless
                             subdivision dwellers don't report higher life
                             satisfaction than city dwellers.   -tom
                             \_ I never said they isolate themselves like the
                                person below tossing out the Unibomber
                                strawman.  I said having some space, ie: not
                                sharing 3 walls a ceiling and a floor with
                                other people 24x7 is unhealthy.  The current
                                propensity for super high density living is
                                relatively new in human societies.  It
                                requires materials and engineering that didn't
                                exist until very recently.  I think it is an
                                odd claim that just because there are many
                                people living that way is the same as saying
                                they enjoy living that way and it is a healthy
                                way for people to live.
                                \_ As I said, there is a lot of research that
                                   suggests that people are more satisfied
                                   with their lives when they are more
                                   connected with other people.  And
                                   specifically in America, our measurements
                                   of life satisfaction have gone consistently
                                   downhill since 1950, concurrent with the
                                   flight to the suburbs.  America is the
                                   developed country with the least density,
                                   but it's certainly not the happiest nor
                                   the healthiest by any objective measure.
                                    -tom
                          \_ There are in misanthropes, like the Unabomber,
                             that really "need" to get away from other people,
                             I will grant you that.
                             \_ That is what Supermax is for.
        \- You may enjoy reading this fellow's work:
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Glaeser
           See e.g. http://www.nysun.com/article/47626
           [On other fav motd topic, see:  http://tinyurl.com/3brjny]
2007/4/11-15 [Computer/SW/Virus] UID:46263 Activity:nil
4/11    Is secure pop3 access working? Norton anti-spam does not work with
        imap accounts.
        \_ Norton's products are junk.  Why are you using anything from
           Norton?  They haven't made good software since Peter Norton left
           20+ years ago.
2007/4/11 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:46264 Activity:low 76%like:46268
4/11    Judge approves racial consideration in enrollment:
        http://www.csua.org/u/igd (SFGate)
        \_ Stop editing my post.  -OP
        \_ Who edited my post?  -OP
2007/4/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46265 Activity:nil 66%like:46282
4/11    BYU students protest...Cheney?
        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/11/us/11byu.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
        \_ You know you may have gone too far when even the people you can
           count on want nothing to do with you.
2007/4/11-15 [Reference/Religion] UID:46266 Activity:nil
4/11    RIP, Kurt Vonnegut
        \_ Wow, this is sad news. One of my favorite authors. My favorite
           of his has to be Hocus Pocus, though I liked Cat's Cradle,
           of his has to be Helter Skelter, though I liked Cat's Cradle,
           and Slaughterhouse Five, too. -ausman
           \_ I never read Hocus Pocus. Guess I'll pick that up when I get
              a chance. I thought Galapagos was a fun read.
        \_ So it goes.
        \_ God made mud.
           God got lonesome.
           So God said to some of the mud, "Sit up!"
           "See all I've made," said God, "the hills, the sea, the sky, the
           stars."
           And I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
           Lucky me, lucky mud.
           I, mud, sat up and saw what a nice job God had done.
           Nice going, God.
           Nobody but you could have done it, God! I certainly couldn't have.
           I feel very unimportant compared to You.
           The only way I can feel the least bit important is to think of all
           the mud that didn't even get to sit up and look around.
           I got so much, and most mud got so little.
           Thank you for the honor!
           Now mud lies down again and goes to sleep.
           What memories for mud to have!
           What interesting other kinds of sitting-up mud I met!
           I loved everything I saw!
           Good night.
2018/08/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
8/16    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:April:11 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>