Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:March:08 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2007/3/8-12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45904 Activity:very high
3/7     motd is so dead. ilyas left. German John left. Without fresh new
        blood, unix interest and competency is at it's lowest level in
                                                     \_ Not to mention spelling
                                                        \_ I bet it's a
                                                           grammar error, not
                                                           a spelling mistake.
                                                        \_ That's not the
                                                           lowest spelling
                                                           level I've seen on
                                                           the motd.
        the entire history of csua. All we got now is pathetic dans
        trolling by himself, and occasionally reiffin ranting his
        slightly conservative views. Sad. So sad.
        \_ I'm centrist which looks "slightly conservative" to anyone left and
           leftist to anyone on the right.  Usually "rants" are restrictied to
           extremists.  How can a moderate be a ranter?  Just curious.
        \_ All I want is for wall logs to be rotated and I'll be back.
           \_ Trolls come in all denominations.
              \_ So posting 'slightly conservatively' is trolling now?  And it
                 is 'ranting' if you don't agree with the entire Berkeley left
                 agenda.  Sigh... okey dokey, whatever.  Welcome to the motd
                 where being a moderate centrist makes you a ranting troll.
                 \_ No, being a moderate centrist doesn't make you a troll.
                    Being a troll makes you a troll.  Being a troll is about
                    being intentionally inflammatory, not about being of
                    any particular political stripe.  -tom
                    \_ So your definition is boils down to, "The things you
                       say inflame me so you're a troll".  Followed by, "You
                       must know that your views don't match the typical
                       ultra-left motd reader's so it must be intentional".
                       Therefore: troll.  So since I don't self censor my
                       very moderate views and some people have insanely thin
                       skin for any opinion different from their own, the
                       fault lies with me.  Got it.  Thanks for clearing that
                       up.  The motd is full of real trolls but I'm not one
                       of them.  I'm one of the few people here who has ever
                       admitted being wrong in a debate and thanking the other
                       person for the correction.  Again, just curious, have
                       you ever done that?  Or maybe you've *never* been wrong?
                       \_ Here's a good example: putting words in someone
                          else's mouth (as you have above) is trolling.
                          It is perfectly possible to disagree without
                          being intentionally inflammatory.  -tom
                          \_ Telling you what you sound like to me is not
                             putting words in your mouth.  I note you
                             completely ignored my two questions and related
                             comment at the end.  We could start going back
                             and forth tossing around more phrases like
                             "intellectually dishonest", a few choice latin
                             debate related phrases, and such but what would
                             be the point?  Some people here only see what
                             they want to see.  If they see something else it
                             is automatically tagged and dismissed as 'troll'
                             without seriously responding to the core issues.
                             I'd say that picking apart a line or two to
                             attack while ignoring the whole of someone's
                             argument is a cheap rhetorical tactic that goes
                             on a lot around here but I don't want to be
                             called a troll so I won't say that.  ;-)  Mostly,
                             this level of discourse reminds me of silly dorm
                             pseudo-debates about the existence of God or
                             whatever.  I do miss a few of the folks who used
                             to post here even though we often were world's
                             apart in opinion and view point.  They could put
                             aside their ego long enough to actually discuss
                             issues, rather than point fingers and hop around
                             mad when someone disagrees or presents an
                             alternative point of view.  So, have you ever
                             admitted to being wrong about anything and
                             thanked the other motd poster for the correction
                             or are you just never wrong about anything?  I
                             have several times.  I don't read or post here to
                             "win" motd debates.  There is no such thing as
                             "winning" here.  It is meaningless.  I'm here
                             because just often enough I learn something or
                             engage in an interesting debate to make the rest
                             of the noise worth it.
                          \_ I'm only showing you how you come across to me.
                             If you meant something else, feel free to correct
                             me.  Again I ask: have you ever been wrong about
                             anything on the motd?  Admitted to it?  Thanked
                             the person who corrected you?  I have.  I don't
                             recall you ever getting to step 3 much less step 1
                             so either you're always right or just spoiling to
                             fight for it's own sake which sounds very kettle
                             pot black to me or maybe just so incredibly
                             thin skinned and intolerant of ideas different
                             from your own that you automatically assume that
                             the intent is to troll you.  I won't pretend to
                             know your internal motivations and psychological
                             states.
        \_ Can someone pls rotate the wall logs?
        \_ Actually there's more unix clue in the CSUA than there was two
           years ago.  It's pretty funny that you use the motd, which most
           undergrads don't even follow, as a bellweather for unix clue.
           What, exactly, constitutes unix clue to you?  The ability to use
           vi to edit posts in meaningless flamewars?  The ability to run a
           machine for a bunch of thankless assholes who think that nothing
           has changed in computing since BSD was being actively developed at
           Berkeley? -dans
           \_ I agree that the current ugs seem to have sufficient unix
              clue, much more so than I had 10+ years ago when I was a
              ug. I'm also guessing that the problems w/ soda have more
              to do w/ lack of time than clue. Personally I think the
              current ugs deserve our thanks and appreciation. -yaAlum
              \_ Yeah, I'm not trying to start the game of my clue dick is
                 bigger than yours, because, though it can be fun, when all is
                 said and done it just leaves everyone feeling dirty and
                 sticky, but doesn't accomplish very much.  I don't even think
                 it's a lack of time thing, I think it's a priorities thing.
                 The current undergrads have deprioritized providing and
                 maintaining services to a bunch of, for the most part,
                 thankless, meddling alumni.  In my opinion, this is a wise
                 decision. -dans (don't edit other people's posts.  its lame)
                 \_ does that mean you'll shut up now?
                    How about services to the existing undergrads, like,
                    I dunno, publishing a meeting schedule on the CSUA
                    web page?    -tom
                    \_ You seem to be working under the assumption that the
                       CSUA web site is the first place a current undergrad
                       would go to find the CSUA or information about it, and
                       that exposing current CSUA undergraduate members to
                       meetings would be doing them a service.  Both
                       assumptions are dubious at best.  You and I both may
                       have ideas about how the current undergrads running the
                       CSUA *should* do things, what you need to realize is
                       that, since we're not an undergrad, our ideas are
                       significantly less relevant than those of the
                       undergrads.  Since most present day undergrads don't
                       read the motd, Pissing about on the motd in regard to
                       what those darn kids should do is, at best, amusing and,
                       at worst, a waste of time for all involved.  I am
                       content to be amused. You amuse me, tom. -dans
                       \_ Are you seriously arguing that an organization's
                          web page is irrelevant to the people it serves?  -tom
                          \_ Do NOT anger me, tom. -dans
                             \_ Do NOT pretend to be me. -dans
                          \_ No, I'm arguing that you and I are irrelevant to
                             the people the CSUA serves.  I would further
                             argue that the web page may be irrelevant, or may
                             have so little relevance that it's not worth the
                             effort.  That you you think the CSUA web site
                             is relevant to current members does not make it
                             so.  For example, establishing a presence(s) on
                             Facebook might be a better way to promote the
                             \_ lol
                             CSUA to current undergrads than working on
                             www.csua.  The question is how does a leader in
                             an organization *know*?  The answer is to run the
                             numbers.  If running stats on the last year worth
                             of CSUA web logs shows the CSUA web site gets a
                             lot of traffic, that's a good reason to put more
                             effort into the web site.  Doing it because tom
                             said so is not.  Are you seriously arguing that
                             superstitious, probably unproven, definitely
                             years old, assumptions are a good tool for
                             decision making in an organization? -dans
                             \_ I think it is the height of irresponsibility
                                to not have the answers to the questions:
                                What is the CSUA?
                                What does the CSUA do?
                                Where is the CSUA office/contact info?
                                How do I join the CSUA?
                                This doesn't require "working on www.csua".
                                It requires 15 FUCKING MINUTES OF TYPING.  -tom
                                \_ That's nice, but, refer back to my first
                                   sentence.  To wit, what you think is
                                   irrelevant to the future of the CSUA.  If
                                   you feel so strongly about this, why don't
                                   you write up the html and send it to the
                                   officers asking them if they wouldn't mind
                                   posting it?  Why not get off your fucking
                                   self-righteous ass and do something for a
                                   change?  As it happens, the answers to
                                   those questions (and more!) do exist.
                                   They're posted right outside of the CSUA
                                   office.  If you could get over your broken
                                   belief that there exists one true way to do
                                   all things and tom is the arbiter of true
                                   ways, you might see the forest for the
                                   trees here.  This isn't about what content
                                   goes on the web site, it's about whether
                                   putting *any* effort into the web site is
                                   worthwhile.  And the answer to that is I
                                   don't know and neither do you.  If you feel
                                   strongly about this, why don't your run the
                                   stats on the weblogs, and if they support
                                   your assumption, send the results to the
                                   politburo with a polite note suggesting
                                   they put more effort into the web site.
                                   Incidentally, there's funny thing about
                                   your 15 FUCKING MINUTES OF TYPING...
                                   At some point in the past, some politburo
                                   member, probably the VP, definitely someone
                                   with sysadminly beliefs had a truly
                                   boneheaded idea: put the web page under
                                   rcs!  Now right about now you've probably
                                   got a vein bulging on your forehead the way
                                   veins tend to do when you get into your
                                   self-righteous tom knows all mode because,
                                   everyone knows revision control is a good
                                   thing.  What could possibly be bad about
                                   using rcs for the web page?  What's bad is
                                   this: since that day, just about every CSUA
                                   president, including but not limited to me,
                                   jones, paolo, has gotten it in his head to
                                   update the web page.  Sometimes the updates
                                   are minor, but more often they involve a
                                   fair amount of time and effort, and jones
                                   actually did a major redesign.  So the
                                   president makes the changes, but he or she
                                   doesn't know that the web site is under rcs.
                                   Then the VP comes along checks index.html
                                   out from rcs, makes some minor change, e.g.
                                   announcing the new politburo members,
                                   checks it back in, and copies it over the
                                   president's major rewrite of index.html.
                                   And like that, hours, sometimes weeks of
                                   work get blown away.  It's happened before
                                   and it keeps happening.  Usually it's not
                                   malicious though I'm fairly sure when
                                   jones' weeks of rewrite work got
                                   obliterated it was (one might wonder:
                                   what happened to his backups?).  Usually the
                                   guilty party doesn't even have the courtesy
                                   to apologize.  Frankly, it fucking sucks to
                                   have hours of work blown away because some
                                   sysadmin doesn't understand people, thinks
                                   the hammer of technology can be used to
                                   bludgeon all problems into submission, and
                                   stubbornly refuses to admit he or she was
                                   wrong despite scores of evidence to the
                                   contrary. -dans
                                   \_ Out of curiousity, has anyone received
                                      any reply to any query sent to root or
                                      politburo since, oh, October?  Your
                                      prolixious defense of incompetence
                                      continues to amaze, dans.
                                      \_ It's a telling question that you have
                                         to ask.  I try to drop by the office
                                         and shoot the shit with the current
                                         undergrads.  Reports of the CSUA's
                                         demise are greatly exaggerated.  If
                                         you feel soda isn't working the way
                                         you want it to, and conclude that the
                                         cause is incompetence, you're wrong.
                                         -dans
                                      \_ I think I got a timely reply to
                                         email I sent to root in January.
                                         -yaAlum
                                      \_ No.  I've sent in a couple of security
                                         holes on the system.  I have received
                                         no acknowledgement, and they don't
                                         appear to be fixed either.
                                   \_ Well that was entertaining. Sounds like
                                      a bunch of people learned some lessons:
                                      back up something if it's important
                                      to you, and something about
                                      communication and management? What fun!
                                   \_ In the amount of time it took you to
                                      come up with that drivel, you could
                                      have fixed it, and you wouldn't have
                                      looked like a complete moron. -tom
                                      looked like a complete moron.  Does
                                      your family have a history of mental
                                      illness?  I don't want you to snap and
                                      cause problems for me. -tom
                                      \_ Fixed what?  The only thing broken
                                         here is you.  Let me take a page from
                                         your book by making an assumption and
                                         deciding it's the only possible valid
                                         explanation for a given set of facts:
                                         Since you've resorted to namecalling
                                         it must mean you have no response to
                                         any of the points I've raised. -dans
                                         \_ Blithering != "raising points" -tom
                                            \_ See ridiculous tom-like
                                               assumption #1 in pp.  I find it
                                               hilarious that you ask if
                                               mental illness runs in my
                                               family when you might as well
                                               be wearing a sandwich board
                                               that says, "Hi, ask me about my
                                               narcissistic personality
                                               disorder."  Granted, NPD is
                                               disorder."  Granted, NPD is not
                                               Bi-Polar disorder; it's not
                                               life threatening or anything,
                                               but you really should seek
                                               help. -dans
                                               \_ dans, I am a psychiatrist.
                                               \_ I didn't ask if mental
                                                  illness runs in your family.
                                                  That was probably psb
                                                  thinking he's clever. -tom
                                                  thinking he's clever.
                                                  I think you are a moron,
                                                  not insane. -tom
                                                  \_ That's nice, but you
                                                     should still seek help.
                                                     Oh, and you haven't
                                                     answered my question:
                                                     what did I say was broken
                                                     that you suggest I fix?
                                                     -dans
                                                     \_ The complete lack
                                                        of useful information
                                                        on the CSUA web page.
                                                          -tom
        -----------------------------------------------/
        \_Uh huh.  So given that:
          a) You think this is a problem.  I don't think it is *necessarily* a
             problem, and I won't until you or someone else run stats on the
             weblogs showing that the website gets a reasonable amount of
             traffic.
          b) I don't think forcing my, much less your, views on how the CSUA
             should do things is a good thing for the future of the
             organization (teach a man to fish and all that...)
          c) I don't have root.
          Why would I possibly fix something that I don't feel is broken, and
          force your views on the current undergrads?  And I put the question
          to you once again, if you care so much, why don't you get off your
          self-righteous ass and do something about it? -dans
          \_ Your assumption, that the current lack of information is due to
             some sort of strategic decision by the current politburo, is
             far too ridiculous to respond to.  -tom
             \_ Where did I claim it was strategic?  Lazy certainly.
                Enlightened, possibly.  Do you really think they're a bunch of
                idiots? -dans
                \_ I don't know if they're a bunch of idiots, but I think
                   it's inexcusable to have no information about the
                   organization available on the web for months.
                   The CSUA is the fourth link that comes up when you
                   type "computer science berkeley" into Google; I'm
                   pretty sure current undergraduates haven't evolved to
                   a higher plane of existence where they don't use Google.
                     -tom
                   \_ And therein lies my point.  You're "pretty sure" of
                      something so it must be true.  All I'm suggesting is
                      that the politburo may have priorities that are
                      different than yours so what is inexecusable to you may
                      be no big deal to them.  I would further argue that it
                      would be reasonable to sit down and run some stats
                      before putting any effort into the web site.  If 98% of
                      new membership comes from in-class announcements or
                      walkby  traffic, it's not worth putting time into the
                      web site unless someone has a personal itch to scratch.
                      Let's not forget Facebook either.  If you really don't
                      think the politburo are idiots or grossly irresponsible
                      hooligans, give them the benefit of the doubt when it
                      comes to running the organization.  They probably know
                      more about the current needs and habits of undergrads
                      than you or I do. -dans
                                               \_ Dans, I am a psychiatrist.
                                                  Would you like me to post my
                                                  diagnosis of you in the motd?
                                                  It will be incomplete
                                                  You are clearly egodystonic,
                                                  but my analysis is incomplete
                                                  because I cannot interview
                                                  you, but I'm confident about
                                                  some of the judgements.  Or
                                                  if you would like to answer
                                                  I few questions, I can resolve
                                                  a few of the uncertainties.
                                                  a few questions, such as
                                                  whether you are currently on
                                                  any mood altering medication,
                                                  and if you are a homosexual,
                                                  I can resolve a few of the
                                                  uncertainties and formulate
                                                  a better assessment.
                                                  P.S. "bipolar" is not
                                                  hyphenated.
        -----------------------------------------/
        \_ If you are actually a practicing, licensed, and board-certified
           psychiatrist, then I'm sure you know that making diagnoses based on
           incomplete information, i.e. not having interviewed the client, is
           a questionable practice that is unlikely to yield valid results.
           Furthermore, you certainly know that, excepting cases where the
           client represents an immediate danger to him/herself or others,
           doctor-client communications, including dignoses, are confidential.
           Were you to interview me, and then publish my diagnosis in a
           semi-public forum, such as the motd, without my express written
           consent, that would be a gross ethical violation and possibly
           grounds to pull your license.  Of course, since you haven't
           interviewed me and you're publishing an incomplete diagnosis it's
           not unethical, it's just sloppy.  And yes, since I'm not a
           practicing psychiatrist, there is a double-standard here.  I make
           no claim to be anything but an armchair psychiatrist (and a bad
           one at that :), but that also means I'm not subject to the same
           rules and ethics standards you are.  So, what's that make you?  A
           sloppy psychiatrist or a liar?
           P.S. Mea culpa on the hypenation of bipolar.  Since I am not
           a psychologist or psychiatrist myself, I don't have a copy of the
           DSM-IV on my bookshelf.
           -dans
           \_ So are you takingany mood altering prescription drugs?
              Can you also put up a jpg of you hand with your fingers
              together?
        \_ Did the MOTD Boob Guy leave too?
           \_ I wish.
              \_ Just got back to the Bay Area.  srs.
                 Check out Jerri Monet!
                 Check out Jean Monnet!
                 http://apella.ac-limoges.fr/col-jmonnet-chateauneuf/jmonnet.jpg
                 http://i18.tinypic.com/3zs34ub.jpg
                 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLV04h76s-c - motd
                 \_ What does the first and last link have to do with boobs?
2007/3/8-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45905 Activity:low
3/7     Bush will pardon Libby and am happy to take any bet to the
        contrary, since I can just arb it on Tradesports. -ausman
        \_ Loyalty is a one way street in that world.  He won't do it.
        \_ No money down, but I'll take that as a gentleman's bet.
           Bush won't pardon Libby. -aspo
           \_ Why wouldn't he though? I think he will. Those who don't
              already hate him won't care if he does it.
              \- any bets the VP will "discover" he can issue pardons too?
                 anyway, unless the issue is moot for some reason, i will
                 also bet he gets a "and turn the lights out" pardon, although
                 if a "i have a pardon in my pocket" scenario is legal,
                 that is a possibility. --psb
                 \_ Just not seeing it.  Not today, not at light's out.  Bush
                    doesn't care about some dumb jerk like 'Scooter'.  Why
                    would he pardon him?
                 \_ what?
                    \_ E,MFDYSI?
                       \_ sorry i'm not familiar with "and turn the lights out"
                          pardons or "i have a pardon in my pocket" scenarios
                          \- lights out pardon: last minute before leaving
                               office [presidents pardon many people all the
                               time, but you typically only hear about con-
                               troversial last minute ones]. this isnt a std
                               term, it is my term]. clinton's patty hearst
                               and marc rich pardons are "lights out" pardons.
                               [the marc rich pardon was one of the worst
                               things clinton did. other interesting pardons:
                               reagun:steinbrenner, raygan:deep throat,
                               nixon: jimmy hoffa]
                             pardon in my pocket scenario: i am not sure if
                               a pardon must be announced. it is clear that
                               a president can give a pardon before you have
                               been found guilty even [most famously ford's
                               nixon pardon]. so the question is can he quietly
                               slip somebody a pardon they can carry around
                               like an immunity idol or joseph conrad's
                               secret agent ... and only whip it out if
                               needed, or never at all. YMWTGF(trust johnson
                               pecker).
2007/3/8-11 [Reference/BayArea, Recreation/Travel/LasVegas] UID:45906 Activity:nil 88%like:45903
3/7     The Myth of "Superstar Cities"
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/3xclv5 (joelkotkin.com)
        \_ Well, it certainly is true that families seem to be getting out of
           Livermore. (Not that it's a "superstar city") -jrleek
           \_ We gotta get out of this place
              If it's the last thing we ever do
              We gotta get out of this place
              Girl, there's a better life for me and you
              Somewhere baby, somehow I know it
        \_ When it comes down to it, people who have the means don't
           generally want to live in Riverside or Charlotte. He addresses
           this in his article. It's not like Charlotte is suddenly going
           to grow to 10 million people and NYC will fall to 5 million.
           All else being equal, people prefer NYC. Sometimes there are
           inflows and sometimes there are outflows, but I think that
           the 'superstar' cities are such for good a reason - mainly that
           people like living there. That doesn't mean Miami, Las Vegas,
           or Phoenix can't grow, but it's like saying that Riverside
           has more to offer than London, Paris, or Tokyo because the growth
           rate there is higher. As those smaller cities mature the rate
           will slow and they won't have siphoned much from LA, SF,
           Boston, or NYC. Can you imagine if SF cost the same as Houston?
           How many people would move there in that scenario and drive
           up prices again? Supply and demand.
2007/3/8 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:45907 Activity:nil
3/8     Sorry to burst the bubble but the Christian belt and undecided
        voters of 2008 will easily and happily ignore your favorite Dem
        candidate. In the view of 53% of the Americans, H Clinton is a
        very unChristian woman who should have been a housewife,
        Edwards looks too young and inexperienced and more importantly
        Edwards is a FAGGOT, and Obama has a very unChristian skin tone.
        Romney may be a Mormon but at least he is white, religious, and
        righteous. Romney wins 2008.
2007/3/8-11 [Uncategorized] UID:45908 Activity:nil
3/8     Anyone else have this issue, where new IMAP headers have previous
        date timestamps, but once downloaded they show up at the current
        time.
2007/3/8-12 [Industry/Jobs] UID:45909 Activity:nil
3/8     USDC is looking to hire a programmer:
        /csua/pub/jobs/USDC_Programmer
        http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/sof/290094575.html
        Email me with questions. --erikred
2007/3/8-11 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:45910 Activity:nil
3/8     What is your meat footprint?   http://csua.org/u/i6y
        \_ My third leg leaves a huge footprint
                \_ headprint?
2007/3/8-11 [Finance/Investment] UID:45911 Activity:nil
3/8     Damn this Bush economy!   http://csua.org/u/i78
        \_ note the number is the SUM net worth for ALL households, not the
           median percentage gain/loss per household.
           this would imply that those households with million-dollar+ hedge
           fund accounts would absorb much of the gain, just like they have
           much of the $$$ anyway, deserved or not.
           E.g., between 2001 - 2004, net worth for the median American
           family increased only 1.5% after inflation (took three years!).
           What you may be falsely implying is that in 2006, in just one year,
           the median American family saw a 7.4% increase in net worth.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:March:08 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>