Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:November:09 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:45285 Activity:nil
11/8    Comedy gold. The site "Rapture Ready" reacts to the election of the
        first Muslim to the US Congress:
        http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=282679
        \_ I love that someone's sig is "My other car is the Rapture".
2006/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:45286 Activity:kinda low
11/9    Good luck Democraps. What are your plans for Iraq again?
        \- to provide oversight and consulation as the executive,
           the state dept and the pentagon work on the problem ...
           you know, like was supposed to happen. do you have
           any other suggestions about what their role should be?
           \_ Impeach BUSHCO!
           \_ In other words, no plan, business as usual, gear up for 2008.
              I hate both parties, you're exactly the same.
              \_ So, doing your job is the same as not doing your job...
                 Awesome.  I'm blowin' this pop stand.
        \_ "Democraps."  Nice.
           \_ Defeatocrats!  TRAITORZZZzz!!!11 -John
           \_ Its spelled D-e-m-o-c-r-a-p-s but its pronouned
              "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys."
              \_ Also pronounced, "Your Lords and Masters"
                 \_ You just made my day.  Thank you.
        \_ I expect the new Democraps to be the same as the Republicunts,
           who were the same as the old Democraps.  A lot of good talk up
           front, but taking the money and voting the way the lobbists
           want out back.
2006/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:45287 Activity:nil
11/9    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15626611
        The average household income of Wal-Mart shoppers is around $35,000
        to $40,000, compared with $55,000 to $60,000 for those at rival
        Target Corp.
        \_ So you're saying that people with less money shop where the prices
           are lower?  How is this news?
           \_ Are prices really much different at Target?
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45288 Activity:low
11/9    So can we finally stop talking about Karl Rove the "genius?"
        \_ For two more years, yes.
        \_ He is a genius, the architect of the democratic takeover
           of the Congress.
           \_ after all that crying and commotions dems barely took over,
              thanks to gwb. what would the dems do when they no longer
              have a commander in chief to criticize? that's right, they'll
              lose again. one time victory in decades , how pathetic
              \_ Zese grapes, zey are so...how you say, sour?
2006/11/9 [Uncategorized] UID:45289 Activity:nil 80%like:45294
11/9    Latest Asian-fetish, no work safe:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdBPr-cdgPU
2006/11/9-10 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:45290 Activity:low
11/9    French Minister thinks that video game makers should get tax
        breaks b/c they are artists just like film makers:
        http://mobile.iht.com/articles/2006/11/05/business/games06.xhtml
        \_ I think there's very little artistic difference between video game
           design production and movie production these days.  Good luck
           getting US lawmakers to recognize that.
        \_ My vote would be fore revoking the tax break on movie makers.
           \_ Art-- you do something, but you don't make much money out of
                    it and in fact you may die of hunger doing so.
              Game-- you work 70-80 hours a week on a crunchline set by
                     your asshole PM and all the young kids worked hard for
                     it and when the game finally publishes the game gets
                     bad reviews and 50% of the team members quit in 1.5 yrs
                     because they're fed-up and overworked and underpaid
                     and pissed off and swear to never work at a fucking game
                     company again. However SOMEONE is profitting from your
                     hard labor so it's most likely not considered "art"
              \_ Hello, the comparison here was film vs. game, not the esoteric
                 concept of capital-a Art vs. Game.
        \_ My vote would be for revoking the tax break on movie makers.
           \_ exactly -pp
2006/11/9-10 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:45291 Activity:low 66%like:45276
11/8    Firefox 1.5.0.8 is out.
        http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/all-older.html
        \_ Why do you keep posting FF releases?  Anyone running 1.5.x is
           going to get the popup alert, anyone not doesn't care.
           \_ You only get the popup alert if you run an official build, I
              think. I build from source (because FF doesn't have an official
              build for my platform), and I don't get a popup. -!op
              \_ What platform?
                 \_ FreeBSD
                    \_ Run the linux version.
                       \_ Which, last I checked, required that you
                          have compat_linux enabled on most BSDs;
                          pp may not not want to do.
        \_ Is 1.5.0.8 or 2 less memory hungry?
2006/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:45292 Activity:nil
11/9    RIP Ed Bradley
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic] UID:45293 Activity:high
11/9    Can anyone think of a legitimate reason for the flag to be at half-staff
        today?  I'm suspecting that some crybaby republican security guard did
        this because of the election, but I want to know if there's *any*
        other possible explanation.
        \_ OP here:  I was being paranoid, it's legit:
           http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/31709.php
           A Border Patrol officer died in a car accident.
        \_ What state are you in?  Gov Schwarzaneggar ordered flags
           to half staff when those fire fighters died in the LA wildfire
        \_ The control of the Republican congress died. It's a dark dark
           day out there for America. God Bless.        -Republican
        \_ Only plausible explanation is that a member of congress has died.
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-staff
        \_ Someone confused 11/9 with 9/11?  Where did you see the flag at
           half-staff anyway?
           half-staff anyway?  A lot of times people lower the flag to
           half-staff to honor some local people.  That's not an appropriate
           use of half-staff'ing of the US flag, but nobody is going to
           complain "oh we liked so-and-so but he didn't deserve a half-staff
           US flag".
           \_ This is at a Federal institution (a lab), so the formal rules
              should apply and should be known by whoever is resonsible for
              the flag out front.  This is certainly either becuase of some
              obscure rule or because someone is knowingly being a little
              crybaby asshole.  Given the nature of the local security guards
              who are the only ones here in the middle of the night,  the
              latter explanation is very plausible.
              \_ You should follow up with this and find out. This is
                 highly inappropriate and the person should be fired, if
                 in fact this is wrt the death of the control of the congress
                 \_ No one is going to get fired over a half staff flag.  You
                    can legally burn the damned thing as a matter of free
                    speech, you can certainly half staff it.  Get over your
                    big self.
                 \_ No free speech if you're king, eh?
                    \_ Free speech is fine. Co-opting the tools of state to
                       express your free speech is unprofessional. Fire him on
                       that.
                       \_ Uh yeah right.  Have you ever worked in the real
                          world?  Short of raping his boss's boss's wife
                          whoever "co-opted the tools of the state" is not
                          going to get anyone fired.  You're being ridiculous.
                          \_ You're being naive. People get fired for less than
                             this all the time.
                             \_ Not federal employees.
                             \_ Nonsense.  In CA it is almost impossible to
                                fire someone.  In order to avoid a lawsuit you
                                need so much documentation and efforts at
                                making sure it "was done right" it will take
                                several months, loads of paperwork and multiple
                                wrong doings (except theft, assault, etc) to
                                fire someone.  Who are these 'people getting
                                fired for trivial nonsense all the time'?
                                You're full of it.  And frankly, even if you
                                *could* get someone fired for half staffing
                                the flag as a sign of his personal political
                                distaste for the results of the election, you'd
                                be a complete ass for doing so.
              \_ No idea but I noticed a fire station had the flag at half
                 mast this weekend and wondered why as well.
              \_ The US flag is supposed to be lowered every evening and raised
                 again the next morning.  So whoever's there in the middle of
                 the night shouldn't have anything to do with it.
                 \_ This flag flies 24/7 normally.  Are you sure about that
                    rule?  So you're claiming that all the flags one sees flying
                    at night all over the country are violating some flag rule?
                    I don't believe that.
                    I don't believe that. link:csua.org/u/hf6
                    \_ If flown at night, the flag is supposed to be
                       illuminated somehow. Otherwise it is supposed to be
                       taken down at sunset.
                       \_ Well, yes, it's illuminated(duh).
                    \_ Title 4, Chapter 1, #6, (a):
                       "It is the universal custom to display the flag only
                       from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary
                       flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect
                       is desired, the flag may be displayed 24 hours a day if
                       properly illuminated during the hours of darkness."
                       http://www.csua.org/u/hf7 (www4.law.cornell.edu)
2006/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:45294 Activity:low 80%like:45289
11/9    Latest Asian-fetish (NSFW):
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdBPr-cdgPU
        \_ I like the "hey look its micheal jackson" comment.
        \_ It's asian with a weird fetish, not asian fetish.
        \_ It's asian with a weird WTF fetish, not asian fetish.
        \_ Maybe some stiff cock out of camera angle is thrusting her while
           we're all watching her nose hair.
        \_ Ha ha ha great -- I love the comments too -- "She's either loving
           this, or getting paid, in which case he's loving the money" LOL
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45295 Activity:nil
11/9    Can I view Bush's humble press conference from Wed.
        anywhere online?  tnx
2006/11/9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:45296 Activity:nil 66%like:45300
11/9    Allen to concede this afternoon:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/09/AR2006110900775.html
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:45297 Activity:nil
11/9    Burns concedes.  I think that's it.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061109/ap_on_el_se/montana_senate
        \_ No recount?
           \_ Why would there be?
         \_ Montana law says it has to be less that 0.25% for a free recount
            and less than 0.5% for any recount (the loser has to pay, he
            gets his money back if the recount shows he won.)  Over 0.5%,
            no recounts (I don't know what happens if fraud can be shown).
            Burns lost by over half a percent.
            \_ Interesting.  So if X appears losing to Y by 0.3%, and X wants a
               recount while Y doesn't, and then Y ends up losing, does Y have
               to pay?
               recount while Y doesn't, and then Y ends up losing, does that
               mean Y is now responsible for the cost even though (s)he didn't
               ask for a recount and (s)he didn't cheat?  If so, does that
               mean one shouldn't enter the election unless one can afford a
               potential recount?
               \_ No, if X wins the state pays.
2006/11/9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:45298 Activity:nil 80%like:45300
11/9    Allen to concede this afternoon:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/y25erv (washingtonpost.com)
        \_ No recount?
2006/11/9-10 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:45299 Activity:nil
11/9    Can someone explain the Stefan-Boltzmann law in reasonably plain
        English?  I don't know enough physics to understand the wikipedia
        articles well enough to understand.  Something about the amount of
        energy an object radiates over time?  Thanks.
        \_ Wikipedia seems pretty clear: "The Stefan-Boltzmann law states that
           the total energy radiated per unit surface area of a black body in
           unit time is proportional to the fourth power of the black body's
           temperature".  Did you not understand part of that, or did you want
           more detail?  (Do you know what a black body is?)
           \_ What is the fourth power of the bb's temp?  Do they literally
              mean temp^4?  I can use a better idea of what a bb is, too, but
                     \_ yes.
                        \_ ah, thanks.
                           \_ Note that temp is in kelvins.
                              \_ LOL.  I like the idea that blackbody radiation
                                 is zero at 32 F.  That would be a funny
                                 universe.
              I have the general idea.
              \_ Real objects absorb some of the light that hits them (raising
                 their temperature), reflect some, and let some through.  They
                 also radiate light, which lowers their temperature.  Unless
                 the object is changing temperature, the amount of light it
                 radiates must be equal to the amount it absorbs (Kirchhoff's
                 law).  Some objects reflect or transmit a lot of light, and
                 thus absorb and radiate very little; some are the opposite.
                 The limit where an object absorbs *everything* that hits it
                 (and therefore radiates as much as theoretically possible)
                 is called a black body.
                 \_ Thanks.  That's a great explanation.  Much appreciated.
              \_ What is this for, exactly?
                 \_ I read http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/05/nosplit/nwarm05.xml
                    which has a link to more details at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/11/05/warm-refs.pdf;jsessionid=EL4ZGZEGE0A4LQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0
                 \_ I read http://preview.tinyurl.com/yc4jtf (telegraph.co.uk)
                    which has a link to more details at
                    link:preview.tinyurl.com/y4cha4 (telegraph.co.uk)
                    and there's an entire chunk I can't understand without
                    knowing what S-B is talking about.
                    \_ If you really want to get into this in more detail, I
                       reccomend the book "Endoreversible Thermodynamics of
                       Solar Energy Conversion", by Alexis de Vos, which has
                       a really nice thermodynamic introduction at the
                       beginning laying out where the SB law comes from.
                       The fourth power comes from the fact that this is a
                       thee dimensional law.  While this may sound like wankery,
                       the zero dimensional blackbody describes the thermal
                       radiation from a resistor in a circuit(Johnson Noise),
                       and that's linear in temperature.
                       http://csua.org/u/hf9
                       \_ Ok, this all makes a lot more sense now, thanks.
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:45300 Activity:kinda low 66%like:45296 80%like:45298
11/9    Allen to concede this afternoon:
        http://tinyurl.com/y25erv (washingtonpost.com)
        \_ No recount?
           \_ What for?  7k is too big a margin to bother.  Although if it was
              120k and in Ohio then a number of people would be screaming
              fraud and recount and disenfranchisement.  At least Kerry had
              the balls to do the right thing and let it go.  So does Allen.
              \_ Allen let it go because previous recounts have in VA have not
                 yielded enough of a difference to allow for a conceivable
                 victory. Also, there's every indication that he'll run again,
                 and if he does, he won't want to be remembered as the loser of
                 a recount.
                 \_ If it was a smaller number I'm sure he would've fought it
                    but 7k is just silly in such a small state.  Even in CA
                    that would be a tough number to overcome.
2006/11/9-10 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:45301 Activity:moderate
11/9    Why am I supposed to listen to the "consensus" among scientists on
        global warming but ignore the "consensus" among economists about the
        problems of raising the minimum wage?
        \_ What is the consensus among economists about raising the minimum
           wage?
        \_ What is your supposed consensus among economists about raising
           the minimum wage?
           \_ Exactly; there is no consensus, despite years of conservative
              investment in economic think tanks designed to put out
              papers supporting the conservative agenda.
              http://www.indiana.edu/~econed/pdffiles/fall03/fuller.pdf
              (Less than 50% of economists strongly agree that raising the
              minimum wage increases unemployment)  -tom
        \_ First of all, what is this "supposed to" crap?  Believe what you
           want to believe.  Second of all, you're blurring the scientific
           consensus with politics.  The science agrees on the statements:
           1) CO_2 is a greenhouse gas, without which the Earth would be
              much cooler, and which is therfore critical in setting the
              temperature of the planet.
           2) CO_2 has been increasing steadily for the last few decades and
           3) That CO_2 increase can be attributed to human technology.
           That's the consensus.  Beyond that, when you start talking about
           what country signs what treaty or how severe the effects of
           climate change will be, you've left the world of scientific
           consensus.  I think the biggest bullshit on boths sides of the
           global warming political debate comes from blurring the lines
           between science and policy.
           \_ What about this:
              "Study acquits sun of climate change, blames humans"
              http://www.csua.org/u/hfa (reuters.com)
              Is this part of the scientific consensus, or only the view of
              one group of scientists?
           consensus.
              \_ What about it?  Did you read the article?
                 \_ It's not in your 3-item consensus list above.  So I was
                    wondering if this is still up for debate.
        \_ You balance each against the alternative.  The alternatives to
           listening are, respectively:
           * climate disaster but short term economic advantage
           * economic slowdown but short term low income social gain
           * glb wming: climate disaster but short term economic advantage
           * min wage:  economic slowdown but short term low income social gain
           \_ That's a nice shovel of shit you're eating, but I'm not being
              told to compare the alternatives. I'm being told there's a
           \_ That's a nice shovel of shit I'm eating, but you're not being
              told to compare the alternatives. You're being told there's a
              consensus on one.
              \_ Nice.  Maybe you should grow up before posting to motd again.
                 \_ HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
              \_ So what you're really asking is why liberals quote the experts
                 in one field, but tell you to ignore the experts in the other?
                 Gee, I don't know... hypocrisy?  Duh.
        \_ Politicians like to paint everything to be one-sided.  Yes, the vast
        \_ Politicians like to paint everything one-sided.  Yes, the vast
           majority of politicans are hypocritical like this.
           You, a Cal student, on the other hand, should be able to decipher
           the bullshit and accept the consensus truths, and find a policy
           that makes sense.
           \_ They also like to paint factual things has having "controversy"
           \_ They also like to paint factual things as having "controversy"
              over them.  (global warming, evolution, ozone hole, etc)
              \- is light a particle or a wave?
2006/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:45302 Activity:nil
11/9    A 55-year-old woman has a lusty relationship with a younger man, but
        wonders if his mother will accept it.
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15625098
        \_ How come she doesn't consider first if her own son will accept it?
           \_ Maybe he does so it wasn't an issue?  Dr.G's reply was pretty
              good IMO except for getting into how the guy's mom may have
              some oedipal complex or other jealously related stuff.  She
              has no basis at all for thinking that.  99% likely the mom
              wants what other moms want for their sons: to get married and
              have kids.  That just isn't going to happen with a 55 year old.
2006/11/9 [Uncategorized] UID:45303 Activity:very high
11/19   Should I delete all my porn or not?
        \_ yes.
        \_ no.
        \_ maybe.
2006/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:45304 Activity:nil
11/9    Who is a competitor to Iron Mountain for data storage and
        recovery? I need to send some tape media and DVDs out of state
        for storage periodically. Our IM sales rep is a bastard. Who else
        can I try?
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45305 Activity:nil
11/9    Bush says he wants to work with Dems on Great Issues. Bullshit.
        Based on his performance in the last 6 years, his rhetorics
        have not matched with his actions. What do you guys think?
        \_ That depends. He and the Dems are in bed together in throwing the
           southern border open. They disagree on entitlements only in
           magnitude, etc.
        \_ There are trolls. And then there are dumb trolls. Where
           do you think you fall?
2006/11/9-11 [Computer/HW/Laptop, Computer/HW/Display] UID:45306 Activity:nil
11/19   I have both pcmia cards for my wi-fi and my usb 2.0 on my DELL I8200.
        Even though  have 2 slots; the usb2.0 card makes it next to
        impossible to plug both in at the same time. Any suggestions? Do
        they sell longer cards? Should I consider an internal mini-pci wifi?
        Thanks.
        \_ is this thin enough?
           http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833150006
           or get a Wi-Fi via USB 2.0 device
           http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833124158
           http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833135109
           \_ Are any of these pcmcia ? I8200's only have 1.0 slots along
              with a 1394 slot . It seems a little big to plug into a pcmcia
              slot
              \_ the first one fits in the I8200 PCMCIA PC Card slot.  it is
              \_ the first one fits in the I8200 PC Card slot.  it is
                 also a 32-bit CardBus card, and the I8200 has CardBus
                 interfaces.  in other words, it works fine with your I8200.
                 the only question is whether there is still enough headroom
                 for your other PC Card.  Also, I now realize your other PC
                 Card may block out a lot of signal, even if they both fit.
                 the latter two plug into a USB 2.0 port.
                 For more info on PCMCIA / PC Card / CardBus, see:
                 http://www.pcmcia.org/faq.htm#pins
2006/11/9-10 [Health/Dental, Health] UID:45307 Activity:nil
11/9    FDA announces recall of some store-brand acetaminophen:
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15636847/wid/11915773
        http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/129/117454.htm?printing=true
        List of stores that might be affected:
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15637699
2006/11/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45308 Activity:nil
11/9    http://preview.tinyurl.com/w3hvt (signonsandiego.com)
          "The vote shows the Iraqi and American people are of one mind about
        withdrawing U.S. troops," said Falah Hassan Shanshal, who leads the
        parliamentary bloc of radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada
        al-Sadr.
          "We hope the Democrats don't forget their campaign promises. If they
        don't, we will deal with them in a brotherly way once the last
        American soldier pulls out from Iraq," he said.
        \_ This is one of the guys who should have been killed and his group
           wiped out years ago.  The fact that he's still around to comment
           on the American election highlights the failures in Iraq that put
           his potential "brothers" in power in the first place.
           \_ well, We whiped out Saddam and his Baathist party, that didn't
              work out too well, no?  May be you should think outside of
              "get rid of those we don't like" box.
2006/11/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45309 Activity:high
11/9    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/09/election.main/index.html
        Pelosi said she'll push for implementing all 9/11 Commission
        recommendations on national security, raising the minimum wage to
        $7.25, eliminating corporate subsidies for oil companies, allowing
        the government to negotiate Medicare drug prices, imposing new
        restrictions on lobbyists, cutting interest rates on college loans
        and supporting embryonic stem-cell research. EVIL LIBERAL
        AGENDAS!                                                -Republican
        \_ I think she also said cutting budgets and not raising taxes, like
           she's a Republican.
           \_ Raising the minimum wage is not a tax increaese?
              \_ Its raising the cost of business... which is not a tax.
              \_ budget increase, you mean
           \_ Letting the current tax cut expire is a tax increase.
        \_ http://www.rightwasright.com
           \_ I'm down with 6 and 18.  And before you think I'm joking about
              6, think about how that would work out (note, I didn't say we'd
              _support_ Hussein, just _reinstate_ him)
              \_ You realize that would mean immediate full-scale civil war,
                 right?
                 \_ I doubt he cares.
        \_ Remember, no matter what the gov't says, the minimum wage is always
           zero.
           \_ Huh?
              \_ If you lay someone off, they're earning 0 -!pp
                 \_ So raising minimum wage leads to layoffs... uh huh...
                    do some research young grasshopper.
                    \_ I didn't say i agreed with "Remember..." guy, I was just
                       explaining what "zero" meant.
                 \_ Uh, if you lay them off, they're not working for you, so
                    you're not giving them a wage of zero. You either don't
                    give them a wage, or give them wage > minimum. Unless it's
                    one of those special cases or you're being illegal.
                    \_ no, then we all give them a wage in state funds and
                       services in exchange for nothing while they look for
                       another job.
                       \_ ok but then the wage ain't zero?
                          \_ It's not zero.  Wage is the amount of money they
                             get in return when they work.  In this case they
                             are not working, so the wage quantity doesn't
                             exist.
        \_ What about the abortion squads to gather new stem cells and control
           overpopulation? This is a golden opportunity.
        \_ Raising the minimum wage is a pretty blunt instrument, and I
           think it rarely has the result it's implementers intend.
           \_ Raising the minimum is inflationary.  The real reason for doing
              so has nothing to do with working poor.  It has to do with the
              fact that most union worker rates are based on a multiple of the
              minimum wage so by increasing the minimum by some percent she
              just gave an automatic wage increase to most union workers by
              that amount.  It's just a pay off to the unions in exchange for
              supporting the party that the rest of us all pay for.  <s> I'm
              glad to see we're still doing business as usual.  I was somewhat
              concerned something might change.  </sarcasm>.
           \_ what are other alternatives you are proposing?  Here is something
              I don't understand.  If people so dispise minimum wage, why
              there is no talk about "ABOLISHING* it?  Why don't we at the
              same time abolish the minimum *AGE* too?  Let the free market
              decide what is the minimum wage and minimum AGE.
              \- because "people" dont despise the minimum wage.
                 in fact it's not even close. it's quite popular in
                 nationalwide polling. google for the obvious like
                 "poll, support minimum wage" etc. we can reasonably
                 argue about various parts of the regulatory state but
                 only nutjobs want to go back to laissez faire red in
                 tooth and claw [disallow regulation of hours, health and
                 safety etc, see lochner etc.].
2006/11/9-11 [Uncategorized] UID:45310 Activity:nil
11/9    Aliens could attack at any time' warns former MoD chief
        http://csua.org/u/hfj (dailymail.co.uk)
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/20    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:November:09 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>