Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:November:03 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2006/11/3-4 [Reference/Military] UID:45124 Activity:moderate
11/2    Do modern fighter jets still have machine guns, or are they
        mounted with missiles exclusively?
        \_ true dogfighting requires canons
        \_ true dogfighting requires cannons
           \_ Why don't jet fighers have rear-facing machine guns?  I think
              it's useful for deterring the other guy from trying to shoot you
              with their machine gun from your back.  The apparent range of a
              rear-facing gun should be longer than a forward-facing one,
              because the air speed, hence air resistance, for the bullets is
              \_ Guessing: targetting would be too difficult because the odds
                 of your enemy coming in straight behind you are very low
                 compared to your odds of lining him up in front.  For that
                 tiny chance of a rear-facing kill you'd have to carry extra
                 weight, extra targeting equipment for rear-firing, etc, etc.
                 The big WWII bombers had room for all that but fighters, both
                 old and new, both jet and props are a different animal.
                 \_ On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the Russians played
                    around with rear-firing missiles.
        \_ I think ever since Vietnam, when our F4's would run out
           of missiles and then have no armament for shooting down
           even more MIGs, all US jets have had cannons.
        \_ M61A1/A2 Vulcan machine gun. NOT a cannon. Russians use cannons.
           While a high-rate of fire, there is  limited number of rounds
           that can be carried before dry.
           \_ What's the difference between machine gun and cannon?  It's just
              bigger bullets and smaller bullets, right?
              \_ MG: Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat!  Or in a modern super high rate of
                 fire MG: brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!   Cannon: thump! thump! thump!
                 \_ This may be the single best post on today's motd.
                    \_ Yup.  Much more descriptive than rounds-per-second
                       numbers. :-)  -- !PP
                 \_ I see.
2006/11/3-4 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:45125 Activity:nil
11/2    How the hell did the world become so dependent on automobile?
        \_ Ever own one? You can watch movies, listen to music, and
           have your butt massaged in your own private space on your way
           to where you want to go at (ostensibly) 120mph. It's a
           wonderful invention! The problem is when there are too many
           people with them in a given area. However, imagine you are
           the only one with a car. Would you use it? Would you depend
           on it? Hell, yeah! That's how!
        \_ Cars = mobility.  Mobility = opportunity.  Most of the country is
           not jam packed all day the way LA and SF are.
        \_ The world?  Not really.  Not in third-world countires or densely
           populated areas in developed countries.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45126 Activity:nil
11/2    Congress terminates Inspector General of Iraq Reconstruction (
2006/11/3-4 [Health/Disease/General] UID:45127 Activity:nil
11/3    Cancer Alicia addicted to lollipops - danh
2006/11/3 [Politics/Foreign, Reference/Religion] UID:45128 Activity:nil
11/2            In what can only be described as a surprise move, God has
        officially announced His candidacy for the U.S. presidency.  During
        His press conference today, the first in over 4000 years, He is quoted
        as saying, "I think I have a chance for the White House if I can just
        get my campaign pulled together in time.  I'd like to get this country
        turned around; I mean REALLY turned around!  Let's put Florida up
        north for awhile, and let's get rid of all those annoying mountains
        and rivers.  I never could stand them!"
                There apparently is still some controversy over the Almighty's
        citizenship and other qualifications for the Presidency.  God replied
        to these charges by saying, "Come on, would the United States have
        anyone other than a citizen bless their country?"
2006/11/3 [Recreation/Dating] UID:45129 Activity:high
11/2            In what can only be described as a surprise move, God has
        officially announced His candidacy for the U.S. presidency.  During
        His press conference today, the first in over 4000 years, He is quoted
        as saying, "I think I have a chance for the White House if I can just
        get my campaign pulled together in time.  I'd like to get this country
        turned around; I mean REALLY turned around!  Let's put Florida up
        north for awhile, and let's get rid of all those annoying mountains
        and rivers.  I never could stand them!"
                There apparently is still some controversy over the Almighty's
        citizenship and other qualifications for the Presidency.  God replied
        to these charges by saying, "Come on, would the United States have
        anyone other than a citizen bless their country?"
                Sarah felt her chest heave painfully whenever she jumped over
        or a plant root.  Her pants bound her thighs and made them chafe.
        She lagged behind the others, deciding that it wasn’t worth
        seeing the huntsman’s kill up close and personal.  She felt sweat
        dribble down her breasts and thighs.  She placed her hand on her
        chest to wipe it off; it throbbed with her heart.  Her nipples
        tingled with each beat.  Her shirt was soaked; she could clearly
        see the outline of her bra, and the curved outsides of her breasts
        flowing over the edges.  Her pants were now skin-tight, and the
        very bottoms of her buttocks were squeezed out of the thigh holes.
        Then she felt her foot hit something.  She looked down and saw a
        thick foot wrapped around it.  She tried to stop, but it was too
        late-she began to tumble foreword.  Throwing her arms out, she
        landed on all fours.  Her upper body’s momentum caused her to
        arch her back.  With a ripping noise, she felt her bra give out,
        the seams of her cups splitting and her breasts surging downward.
        In the same moment, all of the buttons on her shirt snapped
        off and buried themselves in the dirt, causing it to fall open.
        Her breasts stopped inches above the dirt, bouncing and slapping
        each other, slippery with sweat, and nipples engorged with blood
        from her roiling arousal.  She stared at them, then stood back up,
        watching them pile on her ribs, wobbling and undulating very gently.
        They stuck out several inches.  She tried to close her shirt,
        but there was, at the closest, a two-inch gap between both sides.
        There was no way she was going to hide this.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45130 Activity:high
11/3    Keith Olbermann on Bush and political manipulation: (, YouTube video)
        \_ Just don't call them Brown Shirts...
           \_ Unless you are a Conservative, then it is okay:
              \_ The mind utterly reels. OTOH, what a superb illustration of
                 the point: no nonsense is off-limits to the ultra-right.
                 [Edit: To be fair and balanced, yes, I understand that the
                  rhetoric of the ultra-left is silly and nonsensical as well.]
                 \_ They slip in a brownshirt comment at the end, but overall
                    they do have a point about Olbermann and the press in
                    general.  Certainly Olbermann is a lunatic and has gone
                    way overboard.  His little tirade about Bush being at
                    fault King Henry style for Stephanie Miller getting
                    death threats from some old crank or Olbermann getting
                    fake anthrax in the mail are simply insane.  Why does
                    a lunatic like Olbermann get air time?  It can't be
                    ratings because his suck.
                    \_ When you call the other > 50% of the population who
                       don't agree with you "lunatics", you're not making
                       a great case for the 30% of the population who
                       support your viewpoint.
                       \_ I'd *love* to see the URL that says 50% of the
                          population thinks Bush ordered a hit on Stephanie
                          Miller or to have Olbermann sent fake anthrax.
                          You are woefully confusing "will vote Democrat or
                          doesn't like Bush" with "think Bush sends Men In
                          Black out to threaten and kill people".
                          \_ You're either being purposefully obtuse, or you
                             did not listen to what Olbermann said.
                             \_ I did listen and I read it, too.  Read what I
                                replied to because you don't seem to be
                                responding to what I said at all.
                                \_ Olberman said "you sir, of course, did
                                   not order any of these things" but somehow
                                   you heard the exact opposite. I kind of
                                   wonder if it is he or you that is the insane
                                   \_ *laugh* nice way to pull half a line
                                      completely out of context.  Come back
                                      when you've read the whole thing and
                                      are willing to quote it for real and
                                      stop playing rhetorical baby games.
                                      \_ Just becasue someone disagrees with
                                         you does not make them insane. This
                                         might be something you should learn
                                         so that others will take your ideas
                                         more seriously. Many, many Americans
                                         think that Bush is at least partially
                                         responsible for coarsening the tone
                                         of the debate in this country. You
                                         obviously do not. But calling those
                                         who disagree with you "insane" does
                                         not help your case. At all.
                    \_ For those of us who don't think Fox is Fair or Balanced,
                       Olbermann does not sound like a lunatic. His outrage
                       (at this, at the mishandling of Katrina) is shared by
                       many of us non-lunatics.
                       \_ So you think Bush is somehow responsible for SM
                          getting a death threat from some old coot or
                          Olbermann himself getting fake anthrax or any of
                          the other things he ranted in that article's quote?
                          Katrina is an entirely different issue.  If you'd
                          like to discuss that, it deserves a new thread.
                          \_ I think the President is responsible for fostering
                             an us-or-them partisan atmosphere where criticism
                             of the President is characterized as treason. The
                             President could rectify this by calling on his
                             supporters to behave like civilized human beings
                             instead of implicitly condoning this behavior by
                             remaining silent.  That said, I doubt Bush has any
                             inclination to curtail these actions taken on his
                             behalf by unscrupulous loyalists.
                             \_ It went like this: Bush squeaks it out in
                                2000.  Partisans start with the name calling
                                and various other stupidity.  Bush makes
                                attempt to "work with the other party" by
                                letting Kennedy write the education bill.
                                Bush gets bashed by conservatives for being an
                                idiot trying to deal with Kennedy.  Other
                                party continues endless bashing.  Bush fumbles
                                around for a few years pretending it doesn't
                                exist which annoys his base.  Bashing from
                                other party continues.  Bush makes some weak
                                half hearted effort at hitting back.  Bush is
                                Satan.  As far as the details of this thread
                                go, I seriously doubt Bush even knows who
                                Stephanie Miller is and certainly wasn't aware
                                and didn't encourage anyone to send Olbermann
                                any fake anthrax.  Nor do I believe Nancy
                                Pelosi is responsible for the various idiots
                                running around for years calling Bush, etc,
                                war criminals, among a long list of other
                                things, nor is Nancy responsible for the
                                soldiers who have been attacked and harassed.
                                \_ Not condemning the acts of lunatics is sort
                                   of an implicit approval.  Why didn't Bush
                                   condemn the people who we're calling on
                                   others to threaten federal judges who were
                                   doing thier jobs?  The democrats have never
                                   been shy about denouncing the lunatics from
                                   the left.  Nor have they been shy about
                                   apologising for thier mistakes.  Where was
                                   the apology over "Mission Accomplished"
                                   banner as our troops still die?  I'll
                                   agree that both sides can get pretty crazy
                                   at times but the democrats don't support and
                                   encourage thier crazies. (at least nearly as
                                   much as the republicans)
                                   \_ So Bush is supposed to get on TV and
                                      condemn the act of every idiot in this
                                      country?  Until yesterday I not only
                                      had not heard that Stephanie Miller got
                                      death threats I didn't even know who
                                      Stephanie Miller was.  I'm sure the
                                      President's morning briefing includes a
                                      section on nut-heads he has to apologise
                                      for.  That makes no more sense than
                                      asking the Dems to apologise for Hinkley
                                      shooting Reagan.  You've stretched it way
                                      beyond reason.
                                      \_ Well, at least you are admitting your
                                         ignorance. This is a start. Hint:
                                         ever charge Olberman made about
                                         every charge Olberman made about
                                         political attacks against those who
                                         spoke out against Bush happened. I
                                         can provide you with evidence if you
                                         wish, but we should probably start
                                         another thread, becasue it is going
                                         to be a long one...
                                \_ Um.. Whatever.
                                   \_ Links were posted.  Check the archives.
                                      Sorry if reality doesn't fit your
                                      world view.
                                Not any more than Bush, Rove, etc, is
                                responsible for the old coot with Stephanie or
                                Olbermann's fake anthrax.  That sort of hate
                                filled lunacy has reached ridiculous
                                proportions on both sides.  The worst part is
                                reading the anecdotal stories of people who
                                don't speak to their relatives anymore because
                                they vote for the other party, which ever that
                                may be.  The hatred, all of it, is just
                                irrational.  Thus I call Olbermann and anyone
                                who thinks like him a lunatic.  It's just pure
                                blind hatred.  The inability to see the flaws
                                in his left wing heroes while determining
                                without zero evidence that all ill in the
                                world is the fault of the political opposition
                                is simple insanity.  --wordcount
                                is simple insanity.
                                \_ I love it. Condeming political violence
                                   is just "pure blind hatred" in your world.
                                   \_ Bzzt!  Read comprehension--.  Olbermann
                                      isn't insane for being pissed off that
                                      he got fake anthrax.  He is insane for
                                      blaming the President for it.  Thanks.
                                \_ When the President takes his former
                                   opponent's comments out of context and
                                   distorts their meaning, how is that not
                                   the very hate you're railing against? It's
                                   base manipulation, and it shouldn't be
                                   stood for on behalf of either party.
                                   \_ I don't know what out of context quotes
                                      you're refering to in this case but both
                                      parties do it and I agree that it isn't
                                      acceptable.  Either way, to blame Bush
                                      for Stephanie Miller's run in with the
                                      crazy old guy is crazier than the old
                                      guy.  To blame Bush for his fake anthrax
                                      delivery is equally insane.  Olbermann
                                      is a mad man.
                                      \_ Um, Olberman did absolutely zero of
                                         these things.
                                         \_ Did you read his quote in the
                                            mrc link?  Are they lying?  He
                                            said them.
                                            \_ They are lying by omission/
                                               The full speech is online.
                                               Find it, read it.  Get back
                                               to me.  He did not "blame Bush"
                                               for any of these things.
                                               \_ I found it, I read it, the
                                                  answer is the same.  He
                                                  blamed bush.  It is right
                                                  there in the mrc link.  Show
                                                  me another one that shows
                                                  the mrc link has pulled him
                                                  out of context.
                                      \_ Yeah, I remember when Clinton was
                                         President and the liberals threatened
                                         violence against his critics and
                                         mailed out fake anthrax letters
                                         and called for the hanging of and
                                         treason charges against anyone who
                                         disagreed with him. Oh wait. None
                                         of that happened, did it.
                                         \_ WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?
                                         \_ Now you're just paraphrasing
                                            Olbermann's unfounded allgations.
                                            It didn't happen under Clinton and
                                            it isn't happening now under Bush.
                                            I'm so investing in tin foil.
              \_ Stupidity is never ok.
2006/11/3-4 [Academia/StanfUrd] UID:45131 Activity:nil
11/3    Go stanford!  USC dr00ls!!!! who-=00000!!!!!!!!!!!!
2006/11/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:45132 Activity:nil
11/3    This latest meme floating around sounds like something I read
        on best of craigslist: - danh
2006/11/3-4 [Transportation/Car] UID:45133 Activity:nil
11/3    To the guy who crapped in my parking stall last night...
        \_ Removed.  Mirror?  -John
2006/11/3-4 [Recreation/Stripclub] UID:45134 Activity:nil
        Naked man arrested after pulling awl from rectum

        A police encounter with a naked man near the El Cerrito BART
        station turned into an arrest on suspicion of carrying a concealed
        weapon Thursday.
        Passers-by called officers about 7:50 a.m. to report that a naked
        man was lying on a tree stump beside the Ohlone Greenway path,
        exposing himself and masturbating.
        Police saw 33-year-old John Sheehan and arrested him on suspicion
        of indecent exposure.
        Officers led him to the nearest street, the 2000 block of
        Kearney Avenue. Before putting Sheehan in the back of his car,
        Sgt. Paul Keith asked him if he had anything on him that police
        should know about.
        Sheehan replied that he had hidden a screwdriver in his anal
        cavity, Horgan said.
        \_ "Mindful that a 6-inch metal awl wrapped in black electrical tape
           could be used as a weapon, officers kept their weapons trained on
           the 33-year-old." No one wants to get shiv'd with a poo covered
        \_ That's 6 kinds of stupid.  Judging by the location description he
           was practically in the middle of a parking lot, just yards away from
           a BART police substation.
           I like the passing-the-buck:
           Police: "Uh.. let's get the fire department"
           Fire Dept.: "Uh, send him to the hospital"
           ER Tech: "Oh teh noes! Pwn'd!"
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic] UID:45135 Activity:nil
11/3    Today's moment in Republican film:

        When Sgt. Hartman made the comment about Pvt. Cowboy giving a man a
        "reach around" the director stopped filming and asked what it was,
        and Ermey very matter-of-factly told him. Kubrick broke out into
        laughter and decided to keep it in the film.
        \_ Kubrick was republican?  I thought he was a brit.
        \_ Kubrick was republican?
2006/11/3-4 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:45136 Activity:nil
11/3    I'm running Ubuntu and Firefox 2.  What do I need to install
        to watch the Daily Show clips on ? - danh
2006/11/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:45137 Activity:nil
        Ok so the pastor admits to some unspecified version of events with
        the gay male prostitute and the gmp has turned over some voicemails
        to the press.  It was pretty fishy the way it first came out but
        no real doubt in my mind now.  It's just the details which I don't
        find that interesting since I assume the pastor's issue is that he
        didn't actually *pay* for sex or drugs in some twisted Clintonian
        version of the truth.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:45138 Activity:low
11/3    Chevron and the big guys raised 80 million dollars to defeat
        Prop 87. Too bad they can't give back some of that money
        to the consumers.
        \_ The fact that they already allocated 80 million dollars
           translates to 80 million extra dollars the consumers will soon
           have to pay at the pumps.
        \_ When I lived in California, back in the late 90's, there were
           propositions in the 200's.  How come there is now a two digit
           proposition?  Did they reset the counter?
           \_ It's a 10 year rotation. There was a time when the numbers
              reset every single election.
              \_ Cool, thanks for that tidbit.
        \_ If someone was trying to reach into my pocket for $4B, I might spend
           $80M to prevent it as well.
        \_ They're a corporation.  Their responsibility is to their share
           holders not consumers.  Prop 87 is stupid anyway.
           \_ The fact that it specifically excludes itself from conflict of
              interest laws is a little more than stupid IMO.
2006/11/3-4 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Eyes] UID:45139 Activity:nil
11/3    After tech jobs, outsourcing now infests health care.
        \_ Health care was destroyed the day the first HMO was born.
2006/11/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:45140 Activity:nil
11/3    Please, please, please vote McClintock for Lt. Gov.
        \_ I am: ..
        \_ Why?
2006/11/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:45141 Activity:nil
11/2    The patch is dangerous:
        \_ The Patch is awesome.  It made my girlfriend's breasts grow
           from a large B to DDD/DDDD or something crazy.
           \_ Uh yeah.  Gosh, that's great for her.
2006/11/3-4 [Health/Men] UID:45142 Activity:nil
11/3    For you John. Don't brag about your superior EuroAmeritrash penis,
        it is considered rude in other cultures:
        \_ No mention of penis size.
2006/11/3 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45143 Activity:nil
11/3    "Gore to advise British on global warming"
        The funny thing is: I used a tabbed window in Firefox to open this
        page a few days ago, then forgot to close it.  Today when I brought
        up the window again, I saw the tab displaying "Gore to advise British
        on global war..." and I thought "oh no".
2006/11/3-4 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:45144 Activity:nil
        NTSB reports dufuses Cory Lidle and flight instructor attempted wide
        U-turn from center of narrow East River corridor, and pushed along by
        a light wind, went right into the center of a 50-story condo bldg.
2006/11/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:45145 Activity:nil
11/3    Thinking about joining a frat?
2006/11/3-4 [Consumer/CellPhone, Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:45146 Activity:low 62%like:45115
11/3    It's here. Cell phone SMS spams. Anyone having problems? How do
        you deal with it? I'm paying 10 cents/message. Spammers
        need to die.
        \_ With Sprint the nice lady offered to block text messages, so I did
           \_ But that also blocks non-spam text messages from friends or
              alert from your server, etc. What they need to do is stop
              charging for received messages and charge/increase fee for
              sending a message.
              \_ Carry a pager.
              \_ I went to my Sprint account page, and I can configure "ACCEPT
                 ALL" or "BLOCK ALL" except a list of phone numbers, e-mail
                 e-mail addresses, and domain names.
                 addresses, and domain names.
2006/11/3-4 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45147 Activity:kinda low
11/3    "Gore to advise British on global warming"
        Open this page in a tabbed window in Firefox 1.5x, then check out the
        tab to see the hidden message.
        \_ Just tell us what it is. Why would I have 1.5x when 2.0 is out?
           \_ I have no idea how tabs in 2.0 look like.  In my, the
              tab reads "Gore to advise British on global war...".
              \_ You don't have nearly enough tabs.  Mine says "Gore..."
                 \_ I only have two tabs, so my tabs are of the default width.
              \_ Oh, I guess I'm too slow today. It does the same in 2.0.
                 Btw get 2.0. But the new tab close buttons are stupid. So
                 set browser.tabs.closeButtons to 3 in about:config. The
                 new buttons require you to hunt for them instead of being
                 fixed in the corner, besides being redundant (middle click
                 closes the tab). Basic UI mistake.
2006/11/3-4 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:45148 Activity:high
11/3    Motd Poll:
        - What did Haggard mean when he said he just received a "massage"?
        Back massage:
        Frontal massage / Hand job:
        Oral massage of penis:
        Massage of anal orifice:
        All of the above:
        He was lying, just like yesterday: .
        \_ Couldn't you describe all sex as "massage"?
        \_ Who is Haggard, why do we care if he got a "massage"?
           \_ Haggard was the head of (I think) the evangelical
              christian coalition for fighting gay marriage.  His
              gay gigolo/lover got tired of him being hypocritcal
              and exposed him.
              \_ He was also filmed for Jesus Camp, and he came across
                 as a total asshole (and we all thought he was gay).
              \_ I didn't know pro-gay sex == pro-garriage. Seems
                 to me you could be pro-gay sex and anti-garriage.
              \_ I didn't know pro hot gay sex == pro garriage. Seems
                 to me you could be pro hot gay sex and anti-garriage.
                 \_ Yeah, who's he gonna bone if all the gays get married?
                 \_ Except that Christians are supposed to be against
                    pre-marital sex.
                 \_ Except that Christians supposedly are against pre-marital
                    \_ If he was actually even religious, I bet he just
                       thinks gay sex is a sin. Christians like to think
                       of stuff as sin, but they think everyone sins all
                       the time anyway.
        Turning the other cheek: .
2006/11/3-4 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:45149 Activity:nil
11/3    Was this real?
        "Mozilla stomps IE":
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:45150 Activity:nil
        So, CNN had (now removed) on its front-page a URL questioning the
        timing of the gay prostitute drug-dealer story.  Are we going to have
        a story on the timing of Sunday's Saddam Hussein verdict?
2006/11/3 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:45151 Activity:nil
11/3    I can't log into any of the office machines, can someone reboot one
        of them to a Unix variant?
2006/11/3-4 [Recreation/Activities, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:45152 Activity:moderate
11/3    Running Windows on the office machines, what is the CSUA coming to?
        \_ Um, a LAN party.
           \_ Does it feel good to betray your roots for a little fun?
              \_ Haggard would agree that it felt good to betray his roots
                 for a little "fun."
                 \_ His "roots", indeed.
                 \_ His "root" indeed.
                 \_ Haggard was rooting his betrayer.
2006/11/3-4 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:45153 Activity:nil
11/3    In my WinSock.h for v1.1 (dated 6/4/02), there is this line:
                #define AF_FIREFOX      19              /* FireFox */
        What is that???  FireFox socket address family?
        \_ It is a hack MS put into the windows network stack back in '02 to
           slow down FireFox network connections.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:45154 Activity:nil
        If big oil companies are spending 80 million dollars on anti-
        Prop 87 which will cut their profit, let's help them spend
        some of that 80 million by clicking their ads. Click on
        the NoOilTax dot com link now!
        \_ You're kidding, right?
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45155 Activity:low
        Leading neo-cons assume no blame for ideas, but blame Dubya admin for
        terrible execution
        (I can't decide whose pic is worse:  Dubya's or Condi's)
        \_ Annie Leibovitz clearly knows what she's doing.  -tom
        \_ Dubya's picture was taken with a wide-angle lens at close range.
           Either it was a lousy photog, or the photog did it on purpose.
           \_ It's Annie Leibovitz.  It's on purpose.  -tom
        \_ What Condi's pic?
           \_ page 3
        \_ We know execution was terrible.  There is little to dispute on
           that point.  It is just a case of do you believe American power
           should be used to "right wrongs" around the world or not?  Places
           like Darfur and *many* others can't be rectified by diplomacy so
           the choice is invade/attack or ignore genocide.  Some philosophies
           say "screw em, not our problem, not worth our blood and treasure",
           the neocons disagree.  If you're ok with the Saddams of the world
           and more Darfur genocide then you're not a neocon.  /shrug
           \_ Iraq is not Darfur.  As bad as Saddam was he wasn't slaughtering
              \_ Millions aren't dead in Darfur either.  Yet.  'Just' a few
                 hundred thousand or so.  Saddam was estimated to be killing
                 about 5000 Iraqi's a *month* which was going on for how many
                 years?  There is little difference if you're only looking at
                 body count as your measure to take action or not.
                 \_ First, the number is probably being pumped up, just like
                    everything else.  Secondly, under *OUR* rule, we got
                    about 100 guys killed EVERY DAY.  that is almost 3000
                    Iraqis a MONTH.  According to *YOU* even with the
                    violance today, Iraqis *ARE* better off today than under
                    Saddam.  But for some weird reason, every poll conducted
                    by every country has said otherwise.
            \_ The Neocons arguement has never primarily been humanitarian.
               They argue that our countries best interests are promoted
               by spreading democracy and "Western Values." The humanitarian
               argument is sort of tangential to this. And of course, the
               number of bodies is an important consideration in deciding
               if it is worth taking action.
               \_ I am not sure what this "Western Value" means.  I think
                  it really means "western value defined by US government."
                  Frankly, I don't think Neo cons believe in Western Value
                  themselves.  This administration is by far most secretive
                  and imperial administaration since Nixon.  In terms of
                  human right violations, they are rapidly approaching
                  Eisenhoers and FDR's administarations.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45156 Activity:nil
11/3    How much of this is conspiracy theory and how much has a basis in
        \_ Wasn't Bush criticized heavily after Katrina for NOT deploying
           the Natl. Gaurd to keep order?
           \_ Could he have deployed?  National Guards are under states'
              control, not federal, during peace time.
        \_ Looks about 90/10 to me.
        \_ Depends.  Have you read the law?  -John
           \_ Yes. There are some interesting and perhaps scary things in here,
              but they could also be viewed as overblown rhetoric. They could
              also be "just in case" clauses added to prevent cockups like the
              Katrina disaster. What I thought was particularly interesting was
              the section towards the top that gives the President (and his
              SecDef) the ability to administer the Oath of Office for military
              officers. A paranoid mind could certainly draw references to
              Hitler's consolidation of control of the military.
              \_ Isn't the US President already the top supreme commander of
                 the US Armed Forces?  How is the new law different?
                 \_ the President used to need the governor's consent to
                    federalize a state's guard forces
2019/09/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:November:03 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>