Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:November:02 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2006/11/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:45086 Activity:high
11/01   What's more stupid than Kerry's joke? Kerry's apology for the joke.
        For crying out loud, why are liberals so apologetic? I'd respect
        him more had he stood by his comments. Fucking flip-flopper.
        \_ You're too stupid to recognize when someone's calling you stupid.
        \_ KERRY MUST APOLOGIZE! <Kerry apologizes> DAMN FLIP FLOPPERS!
           \_ Karl Rove is a genius, and the Republic is doomed.
           \_ You forgot, Kerry says: "I'll never apologize!"
        \_ Hi troll.  No one here has actually said that.  He also has yet to
           give a real apology that I've seen.  "I'm sorry my comments were
           misinterpreted by [insert daily DNC fax talking points about Bush,
           Iraq, etc here]" is not an apology.  BTW, did he ever apologise
           for calling our troops baby killers and rapists?
           \_ Do you also believe Mark Foley was punked by 15 year old twinks?
              \_ Of course not.  He's a sicko and should have been booted out
                 years ago.  I don't have double standard politics.  Two things
                 mainly bug me about Foley (beyond his actual behavior):
                 1) apparently everyone in DC knew about it and ignored it,
                 2) while one side was trying to bury/ignore it forever, the
                    opposition party appears to have sat on the information
                    for *years* waiting for the right moment politically to
                    release the info instead of outing him when they first
                    found out.  I do not appreciate children/young people
                    being pawns in some silly Congressional election head-count
                    power game.  By either party.  There *are* things that are
                    more important that politics, many things, and this was
                    one of them.
                 \_ While I'm willing to agree that the timing of the Foley
                    revelation is suspicious, remember that it's not the
                    children/young people being manipulated; it's the
                    culpability of the wrongdoers that's being manipulated.
                    Foley (and the GOP leadership) are the ones guilty of
                    manipulating the children/young people. The Dems are guilty
                    of revealing that at a politically senstive moment. Yes,
                    that's not good, but it doesn't excuse or make better the
                    behavior of the GOP leadership in covering this up. -!pp
                    \_ Both sides covered it up.  One side covered it up to
                       retain power, hide it, etc, all the standard reasons.
                       The other side covered it up *until* it was politically
                       advantageous *not* to.  Had they determined it was not
                       yet time to reveal he'd still be trying to bugger the
                       under-age pages while sponsoring bills to nail net
                       \_ You say the Dems covered it up as well.  Do you have
                          evidence they even knew?  The report will come out
                          of the ethics committee next month.  You better hurry
                          and get it to them if you have it.
                          \_ It was reported at the time.  It wasn't a secret.
                             We'll see what comes from the report but I expect
                             that to be a white wash for both parties.  You
                             don't seriously expect the foxes to properly
                             investigate who killed the hens, do you?
                       \_ Show me how the Dems covered it up.
                          \_ By remaining quiet while they knew about it?
                             What do you mean by "how"?
            \_ Isn't the blonde girl still missing in Aruba? Why don't you
               go vent some of your fake fury on that other obvious
               attempt to distract America from your miserable failure in
               \_ Who cares about her?  Why are you trying to distract from
                  the issue?  Because you don't have a real response.  Thanks
                  for playing.
                  \_ Wow, you missesd the obvious point, even when hit in the
                     head by a 2X4. You are even dumber than I imagined. Are
                     you really a Cal student or grad or even dropout?
                     \_    _n_  ______
                         _/o  \/      \@  _________
                        O_             )=(  ____I_ \______
                          \___/\______/   \ \     \_____ I
                                II  II     II           II
                        Go stick your head in a pig.
                     \_ You didn't have a point.  No, I'm not a Cal student or
                        dropout.  I'm here to learn from you how to fail to
                        communicate.  You understood what I was saying but I
                        still don't see why you bothered posting so I have
                        failed to communicate at your level.  Next time I'll
                        simply rant about some totally random event which had
                        nothing to do with anything anyone besides the girl's
                        family cares about.
                        \_ Just like your silly random rant about Kerry.
                           Thanks for making my point for me.
                           \_ Still no point to be seen and no response to
                              what I said.  If that makes you feel smart, then
                              feel smart.  I'm not here to injure your sense
                              of self esteem.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45087 Activity:nil 93%like:45092
        Gas price down, SUV sales back. Yay!
2006/11/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast] UID:45088 Activity:nil
11/02   Just FYI, here's the Heritage Foundation's study about who military
        recruits are.
        \_ I like how they're "better educated than the national average"
           Given that being a member of the armed forces has standards at all
           and being a member of the country doesn't... why is this at all an
           interesting result?
2006/11/2 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:45089 Activity:high
11/01   "Soldiers are just cowards with their backs against the wall. The
        lowest IQ men in our society, those incapable of normal careers
        enlist. Their choice in life; prison or the military. Some will
        have to die in the support of our cause."
        Ann Coulter - Intervention Magazine, 11/06/03
        \_ Ah, making quotes up again.
           \_ Actually, no, but thanks for playing.
              \_ Then you can support the claim that she wrote that?
                 Seriously, after doing some searching, I can find no source
                 for this except a random blog or two.  It smells like an urban
              \_ According to this page, it was Madonna who said this
                 \_ No, that page says Ann Coulter said it.
                    \_ Actually, it says "Ann Cuntier".  Don't know if they're
                       the same.
                 \_ Yeah, I think people like Ann Coulter are exactly what
                    is wrong with this country, but I cannot find any
                    evidence she actually said this.
                    \_ She is not what is wrong with the country.  She is
                       merely a symptom.  When politics turns into smears
                       and extreme polarization, you get AC types on both
                       sides cashing in.  She didn't cause it.
                 \_ The fact that you cannot find any source for this is
                    all part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to cover up
                    the tru7h about the "hundreds" of war crimes committed
                    by the Bush BrownShirts against dissents. The Bush
                    BrownShirts have removed all negative statments made
                    by members of The Cabal in an effort to keep you from
                    discovering the tru7h. -fmulder
                    \_ I believe!  I believe!
        \_ I'll accept that AC is a fool who should never be elected to
           anything if you'll accept that John Kerry and those who supported
           him in 2004 should never be elected to anything.
           \_ Only if you'll accept that anyone who actually supports AC is
              dangerous and probably criminal and ought to be in jail.
              \_ Sure.  No one 'supports' AC.  She is a noise maker who
                 writes books for the freeper crowd for cash.  But no I can't
                 support sending her to jail.  Maybe in China that flies but
                 we still have free speech in this country and she has broken
                 no laws I'm aware of.  Remember that silly old thing about
                 not agreeing with you but willing to die for your right to
                 say it?  Oh, nevermind.
                        \_ get real.  What Republican ever said that?  Only
                           the liberals ever did... you're going to be screwed
                           once I get ahold of you.  Even the liberals won't be
                           able to save you.
                           \_ What Republican?  Do you *really* have no idea
                              who I was paraphrasing?  Damn... Is the state
                              of education really that poor today?  And I'm
                              going to be screwed?  Is this like a school yard
                              "I'm going to beat you up" thing?
                              \_ You *do* know that Voltaire was a liberal,
                                 \_ What about him?  I hope you're not saying
                                    you're going to send him around "once you
                                    get ahold of" me to beat me up.  ;-)
                 \_ Please. If you're going to condition your acceptance with
                    silly clauses about including anyone who supported Kerry,
                    you've already propelled the conversation out of the realm
                    of reason. Let's take this to its conclusion: gas Anne
                    Coulter and her ilk.
                    \_ "I don't like what she says so she must die".  When
                       that becomes an acceptable idea in this country held
                       by anyone not in some psychotic extremist group then
                       the whole democracy+freedom experiment thing is over
                       and failed as well.
2006/11/2 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Computer/Theory] UID:45090 Activity:high
11/02   What is the best way to implement this?  I have a queue where jobs
        are submitted for processing, and multiple worker threads
        asynchronously pull the front job from the queue to process it.
        I also have N (N=3)
        priority classes.  Normally I would just implement this as N FIFO
        queues and that would be fine.  But wait, there's more!  Some jobs
        cannot be processed until other jobs (their dependancies) have been
        completed.  A job and its dependancy may have different priorities.
        Then, certain jobs may require the exclusive use of a resource being
        used to process a different job in a different worker thread being
        fed from the same pool of jobs (think dining philosophers problem).
        Any ideas?
        \_ Classic priority inversion problem.
        \_ Is this your 162 homework assignment?
           \_ Nah, extending an existing system for work. -OP
             \_ This sounds amazingly similar to some of the job queueing stuff
                handled by Sun's N1 Grid Engine.  You might be able to adapt it
                to your use, or if not, grab the source -- Sun publishes this --
                and see how they solved the same problems. (We use N1GE and
                our users are pretty happy with it) -ERic
                \_ Grid computing? NOOOOOOOO!!!!
                   \_ and in spite of the name, it is not really Grid
                      computing,  it is more of a batch job submission /
                      processing engine.  A great way to distribute tasks
                      across many systems.  SUN Marketing FTL -ERicx
                      across many systems.  SUN Marketing FTL -ERic
                \_ Here is a link to the source:
                   GridEngine is a decent piece of code written by fairly
                   good engineers. I worked on a interdepartment project
                   w/ the N1GE team while at Sun and they were very nice
                   responsive people.
                   I used to work w/ the N1GE group when I was at Sun, if
                   you need a contact, I can find out who is currently
                   working on queue mgmt.
                   \_ and in spite of the name, it is not really Grid
                      computing,  it is more of a batch job submission /
                      processing engine.  A great way to distribute tasks
                      across many systems.  SUN Marketing FTL -ERic
        \_ Would it be an acceptable solution to have multiple threads
           processing the jobs that have no dependencies, but have only
           one thread process jobs with dependencies? That thread could
           then do a topological sort on the elements in its queue when
           it goes to read from the queue. I guess after sorting, the
           job entire dependency graph could be handed to a worker thread...
             - ciyer
           \_ There may be a high fraction of jobs with (relatively simple)
              dependancy graphs.  I'm thinking when a job with dependancies
              gets queued, it's dependancies can get (upwards only) priority
2006/11/2 [Uncategorized] UID:45091 Activity:nil
11/02   Anti-smoking ads funded by tobacco companies boost Teen smoking
        No, really?  Who thought those were a good idea?  They all amount
        to, "You're not mature enough to smoke."  Which is a well known way
        to get stupid teenagers to do anything.  Sheesh.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45092 Activity:high 93%like:45087
11/01 (
        Gas price down, SUV sales back. Yay!
        \_ Oh no!
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45093 Activity:nil
11/01 (
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ Isn't the RAV4/CRV Honda's and Toyota's way of charging idiots
              more money for a Civic/Corolla?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:45094 Activity:very high
        Allen regularly called Blacks the N word in college.
        \_ So just curious, does Swift Boating Allen make what Kerry has said
           ok?  Is that the new standard in politics?  You've got one or two
           guys who said he used the word decades ago and several more guys
           who said he didn't.  Whatever.
           \_ lol
           \_ What Kerry said was accidental, and not "oops, I exposed my real
              feelings" accidental, but a literal accidental omission of one
              word that his notes made it clear he meant to say.  Try again.
              \_ URL for either statement?  Mind reading and wishing doesn't
           \_ Stay on target, little RNC talking pointer, stay on target!
              \_ I'll take your non-reply as a bullseye.  Thanks.
        \_ Yes, please!  More irrelevant issues!  I don't want to know anything
           about the issues!
           \_ Well yesterday people were asking why Allen was a racist prick
              and why the whole "he just totally made up a racist slur and
              didn't realize it was racist" argument is bullshit.
              \_ It's a Swift Boat attack.  It's all "he said it", "no he
                 didn't".  If you didn't accept the same kind of attack on
                 Kerry, then you have no business accepting it on Allen.
                 \_ The Swift Boaters were disputing documented historic
                    facts.  There's no correlation at all with this situation.
                    If you want to make a comparison, it's something like
                    Anita Hill accusing Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment.
                    \_ Documented historic facts?  Kerry's record, such as it
                       is, is chock full of irregularities.  His own stories
                       aren't even consistent about where he was, when, with
                       who, and what happened.  I do agree the Anita Hill
                       accusations are similar.
                       \_ Hey, lay off.  He's been a little confused ever
                          since Nixon ordered him into Cambodia in '68.
           \_ Hey, at least he is running.
              \_ But this has nothing to do with his politics.  This entire
                 election is going to be decided based on nothing to do with
                 the issues.
                 \_ Whether he is a lying, racist asshole has nothing
                    to do with his politics?
                 \_ Welcome to how the Kerry campaign felt in 2004.
                 \_ Actually it does.  When he tells someone born and raised
                    Virgina "Welcome to Virginia, Macaca" (paraphrased) that
                    says a lot about him and how he sees non whites as second
                    class citizens.  Do we really need more racist yahoos
                    running our country?
                    \_ Maybe they like wasicsts in VA. Who are we in CA to
                    \_ Maybe they like rasicsts in VA. Who are we in CA to
                       tell them who they should elect to represent
                       tell Virginians who they should elect to represent
                       themselves? This is a distinctly local issue, not a
                       national one.
                       \_ US Senators pass bills that directly affect
                          every human being on the planet.  Also John
                          Kerry isn't running.
                          \_ So what? We have never had national election
                             of Senators. No matter what I think of Allen
                             my opinion doesn't matter b/c I can't vote
                             for him. Instead of wasting my time w/ news
                             about his wacism, I'd prefer to hear about
                             CA news. [ If you want to argue that we in
                             CA ought to express our outrage so that VA
                             voters are pressured to elect someone other
                             than Allen, shouldn't VA citizens have the
                             right to choose whoever they think is best
                             for them, w/o outside interference? ]
                             Re Kerry, see below. I think the whole Kerry
                             thing has been blown way out of proprotion.
                       \_ "But this has nothing to do with his politics."
                          \_ I disagree. This does have something to do
                             w/ politics, just not national politics. I
                             think the Kerry comment is also being blown
                             way out of proportion. So Kerry said something
                             dumb, let Bostonians deal w/ him.
                             way out of proportion. I would be willing to
                             entertain the argument that the Kerry comment
                             is noteworthy on the national state b/c Kerry
                             was a national figure by virtue of his Pres.
                             bid. Even so, the press needs some sense of
                             \_ Actually, this race will probably determine
                                which party controls the Senate, so it is
                                of huge national importance.
                                \_ Then we should all get to vote on it.
                                   \_ We can all campaign and contribute
                                \_ By your logic, ever Senate race is
                                   crucial and we should get to vote
                                   on each one b/c it might affect
                                   national policy. But that is not
                                   the way things work. We vote for
                                   our representatives only. And what
                                   gives me, a CA citizen, the right
                                   to dictate national (or local)
                                   policy to VA citizens? They are
                                   after all citizens of a co-equal
                                   sovereign state in our republic.
                                   How would you like it if the VA
                                   citizens came to your home and
                                   told you how to run things?
                    \_ No, we just need one supreme leader.
                       \_ I'll take the first term and let you know how it
        \_ Listen to it yourself and decide, did he really mean to
           say "mohawk" or "macaca"?
           \_ He didn't claim he said "mohawk".
              \_ "Wadhams said Allen campaign staffers had begun calling
                 Sidarth "mohawk" because of a haircut Wadhams said the Webb
                 staffer has. "Macaca was just a variation of that,"
                 Wadhams said."
                 \_ Yes?  and?  Macaca != Mohawk.  Why would we expect to hear
                    Mohawk when he said Macaca, he said he said Macaca, every
                    other person there said he said Macaca and no one said he
                    said Mohawk?  I love the motd.  It's full of such oddness.
                 \_ Best excuse ever.  Especially considering the haircut
                    is about as unmokawky as well, a haircut could be.
2006/11/2 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:45095 Activity:nil
11/02   YouTube sued by Universal Tube ( (
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45096 Activity:nil
11/01   Lower gas prices mean more SUV sales: (
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ Isn't the RAV4/CRV Honda's and Toyota's way of charging idiots
              more money for a Civic/Corolla?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Recreation/Dating] UID:45097 Activity:nil
10/31   Over the past 2 years I've gone from a small C cup to DDD, size 32
        band. Because the girls are brand new and look like they belong on a
        15 year old, they can come off as looking fake and they're cleavage
        challanged. Aside from the granny bra selection I have, the cleavage
        thing annoys me the most.
        Bras and breasts come up quite often among the people I socialize
        with. Often women complaining, or my boyfriend bragging about my
        breasts (he's quite proud). When sizes come into the picture, usually
        linked to bra complaints, people will insist on correcting me about
        my size, which I mention when they can't figure out why I can't find
        nice bras my size.

        "Oh, you can't be that cup size! You're much smaller!"
        "That's not possible, are you sure you're wearing the right bra
        Um.... yes, do you see wrinkly cups under my shirt?!
        Oh, and here's my favorite from men, as if they understand bras
        beyond how to remove them one handed. "I've played with A LOT of
        D cups and your not even near a D cup!"

        Excuse me, I think I need to hit someone. This usually leads to me
        launching into a lecture on the art of bra sizing and how not all
        D cups are the same size. The larger the difference between your
        band and the largest part of your breasts, the larger the cup. I'll
        then point out that I have a 10"+ difference, meaning large cup size.
        Slender girls CAN have large breasts!!  A slender girl with D cups
        will NOT have the same size breasts as a girl that's quite large that
        has D cups.  What I love about this is the women around me, suddenly
        their faces will light up with the realization that all along,
        they've been wearing the wrong bra size.
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45098 Activity:nil
11/2    Top US general says Rumsfeld is inspired by God
        Holy fuck.  (literally)
        \_ we need a new JCS chair, not really for the God comment, but for
           the praise of Rummy
        \_ '"He leads in a way that the good Lord tells him is best for
            our country," said Marine General Peter Pace, chairman of
            the Joint Chiefs of Staff.'
            I always figured Rummy hears voices in his head.
2006/11/2-3 [Transportation/Bicycle] UID:45099 Activity:kinda low
        Bicycle safety
        \_ It's illegal to ride a bicycle while drunk?  Amusing.
        \_ What is "one wheel skid"?
           \_ Try locking just the rear brake while going downhill and see what
              \_ Then what does it mean by "Brakes - Must be able to make one
                 wheel skid on clean, level, dry pavement."?  Skidding is good?
                 \_ If your bike's brakes are so weak you can't skid your
                    rear tire you need new brakes.
           \_ Most of the laws around bicycles don't really have much
              relation to bicycle safety.  Being able to skid one wheel
              is neither a necessary nor sufficient test for the stopping
              power of the bicycle.  Having one hand on the handlebars
              is actually less stable than riding no-handed.  And the
              "ride as far to the right as is practicable" and "must use
              bike lane" laws definitely require cyclists to ride more
              dangerously.  -tom
              \_ Um, I've repeatedly hit ruts/rocks/etc that if I didn't have
                 a hand on the handlebars would have snapped the wheel around
                 and sent me tumbling.
                 \_ Really--have you tried it?  Because it's a lot easier to
                    knock a front wheel off-line when you have one hand on
                    the handlebars than when you're riding no-hands.  When
                    you're riding no-hands, your front wheel tends to want
                    to keep going straight; if you're riding with one hand on
                    the handlebars, your front wheel tends to want to turn.
                    The worst accident I've ever had was due to hitting
                    uneven pavement with one hand on the handlebars (I was
                    adjusting my shorts).  -tom
        \_ There are add-on headlights and tail lights for bicycles.  Does any
           manufacturer make add-on signal lights?  If I have signal lights,
           I don't need to do hand signals and I can keep both hands on the
           handle bar.
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:45100 Activity:low
e1/02   What does everyone think of CA props 1A-1E?  I'm voting no on
        everything else, but I'm still undecided on those.
        \_ all the bond measures are part of the same 'borrow&spend'
           shennanigans we kicked Davis out of office for.  The rest of it
           look like bypassing what the legislature is supposed to be doing.
           \_ i kicked out davis because he hid the magnitude of the deficit.
              i think every admin, GOP or Dem, borrows and spends to roughly
              the same level.
              \_ I supported the recall because I was unhappy with the
                 way Davis handled the 'energy crisis'.
                 \_ Did you vote for Schwarzenegger?
        \_ 1A is a bad idea. The California Legislature has a tough enough
        \_ 1A is a bad idea. The California Legisslature has a tough enough
           time making a budget because of all the current set asides. I
           voted for all the rest, because I think the State needs to
           fix all sorts of things that these bond issues address. 1B
           was a tough choice, since most of the money goes to freeways,
           but I voted for it anyway. -ausman
           \_ Wow, I'm exactly the opposite.  1A is an attempt to make taxes
              get spent on what they were supposed to be spent on.  For B-E I'm
              not interested in getting $35B+ more in debt for things that
              should be paid for out of the general fund. -emarkp
              \_ where do you think the money to pay those bonds off is
                 supposed to come from?  yep, general fund.
                 \_ Yes, with interest.  My objection to bond measures is
                    typically that they use the general fund for pork, and then
                    borrow to pay for essentials. -emarkp
                    \_ What percentage of the CA general fund budget would you
                       say is pork?  -tom
        \_ I voted no on every single prop.  We have a legislature
           for a reason. - danh
           \_ You voted against Prop 83?  You are in favor of less harsh
              sentencing against sex offenders?  Interesting.
           \_ the legislature can't issue bonds.
              \_ and this is a good thing!
        \_ I always vote no on all bond measures even if it is something that
           would directly benefit me.  Buying bonds via propositions is a
           horrible way to run the government.
           \_ Did you pay all-cash for your house?
              \_ My house is not the state government.  My problem is not
                 bonds.  My problem is doing things like passing taxes on
                 people we don't like to give ourselves stuff.  My other
                 problem is taking out loans/bonds to give ourselves more
                 stuff and leaving the debt for the future to deal with.
                 \_ Highways and schools aren't "stuff" they are infrastructure
                    investments that should pay themselves back many times over.\
                    This is exactly when it makes financial sense to borrow.
                    investments that should pay themselves back many times over.
                    This is exactly when it makes financial sense to borrow.
                    \_ This should come from the general fund, gas taxes and
                       other things we're already paying, not proposition
                       sponsored bonds.  CA is one of the few states with a
                       proposition system yet all the other states somehow
                       manage to fund highways and schools without props.
                       \_ Without props, yes. Without bonds, no. The problem
                          is with the system that requires the public to
                          vote on the bonds, not (necessarily) with the bonds
                          \_ I've got no problem with the legislature issuing
                             bonds.  They can be removed from office if they
                             screw up.  Props are paid for by third parties
                             who are not directly responsible to the voters.
                             They also have the problem of "tax $unpopular_grp
                             for my gain".  Because hey if $you are getting
                             taxed and $I get the benefits, why not tax $you?
                       \_ Yes, those states can fund highways and schools
                          because they don't have the bloody voters mucking
                          around in the legislative system.  Kal-eee-forn-ee-a
                          is ungovernable _because_ of the proposition system.
                          \_ I agree it's gone too far, thus I vote against
                             all the bond type issues.  Every so often there
                             is a proposition that changes a law or fixes
                             some hole in the system the legislature is too
                             gutless to deal with.  Those are the ones I'm
                             much more likely to vote for.  I've also seen
                             plenty that look good until I read the entire
                             text, not the he-said-she-said political garbage
                             and a lot of them have all sorts of stupid
                             nonsense in them.  So I vote against those as well
                             even though they look good at first.
2006/11/2-3 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:45101 Activity:nil
11/02   I just got an email (at my work account) from what appears to be a
        head-hunter.  It is very low on job offer details.  Does anyone else
        get these?  Is it worth it to respond?  If I respond, will I be
        flooded with these?
        \_ The job market is hot for employees now.  Head hunter/recruiter
           types are hurting.  If you're looking for a job, go post your
           resume and start applying to listed jobs from real companies.
           I wouldn't bother replying to this unless there's something in
           particular that caught your eye.  Sounds like recruiter spam.
        \_ Make sure its a real head hunter / job offer things. Fake ones
           would be a real great phishing operation, as a lead-in to
           identity theft.  I get tons of spam that looks like this is the
        \_ if you are really good, head hunter will *CALL* you instead of
           emailing you.  They should know it's not cool to send recruiting
           information into your WORK email.
2006/11/2 [Recreation/Dating] UID:45102 Activity:nil
*/*     Stupid bra blog rant removed.
        \_ I'm willing to trade five years of my lifespan for a wife with a
           body like this.
           \_ Are you married now?
              \_ Yes I am.  My wife has been talking about improving her body
                 all the time, but it's all just talks.
           \_ Go sign up for one of those $300k/yr jobs in Iraq and when
              you come back, you will be able to acquire one.
2006/11/2-4 [Recreation/Food] UID:45103 Activity:nil
11/02   Ocean fish, seafood population could collapse by 2048
        \_ the rapture will come before then
           \_ Doesn't the Mayan calendar end this 'cycle of existence' in
              2012 or so?
           \_ Or at least the unix epoch will run out.
        \_ One more reason to switch to vegetarianism.
        \_ Who cares? Do fish power my SUV? Real Americans eat beef. It's
           what's for dinner(tm). --average fatass
           \_ Beef powers SUVs?
2006/11/2-4 [Uncategorized] UID:45104 Activity:nil
11/02   Is there a text-to-speech plugin for Gaim?
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:45105 Activity:kinda low
11/02   Wow.  Eff'in wow.  Anti-dubya radio host Stephanie Miller goes on
        Hannity & Colmes.  Retiree writes a letter filled with death threats
        and expletives to Miller, and leaves his phone number.  Letter at end:
        Miller calls retiree, and they talk for ~ 5 minutes (nsfw)
        \_ Poll: would you do Stephanie Miller?
        \_ This was kind of stupid and there was nothing in it NSFW.
        \_ How is this nuthead guy any different than our very own motd nuthead
           who said Ann Coulter should be jailed and/or gassed?
        \_ Poll:
           Would you do Ann Coulter?
      Hell Yes:
              \_ Does a Dirty Sanchez count?
       Hell No: ...

            Would you do Stephanie Miller?
       Hell Yes:
            Yes: .
        Hell No:
           Who?: .
           \_ sorry, but miller hearts keith olbermann
           \_ I doubt ann coulter reads the motd.  i think ann coulter
              should be mailed to Iran.
           \_ non-anonymity and a 5-minute mp3 recording of the convo?
              \_ so anonymous threats are ok?  ok, sure.
                 \_ reading comprehension++
                 \_ reading comprehension++, try again
                    \_ so anonymous threats are ok?  ok, sure.
           \_ There is a huge difference between venting and noone in
              particular and telling the person you are venting at that they
              should be killed.  If you can't understand that you are either
              intentionally being stupid or you cheated to get into Cal.
              \_ I see.  So how do you know this nut guy wasn't venting?  He
                 doesn't have a motd to vent on and is likely low tech.  Just
                 how many psycho killers are giving their real info out to
                 their victims?  Either you're both friggin nuts or you're
                 both just venting.  I see no difference just because the tech
                 is different.
                 \_ Cause he sent the letter TO HER.  See the difference?
                    \_ Nope.  Who was he supposed to vent to if not her?
                       \_ this guy is a moron, hopefully an undergrad, which
                          is excusable (even for Cal).
                          \_ because we know education = smart!!!  or maybe
                             anyone who disagrees with you is just a moron
                             by definition?  god forbid you should actually
                             come up with anything worth saying smarter than
                             a very lame and weak minded personal attack
                             cop-out.  that might require real intelligence.
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:45106 Activity:nil
11/02   November surprise? ( article) (Picture, jpg, Work Safe)
        \_ Iran fires Shahab-3 with 1250 mile range.  No surprise.  They've
           been working on this for a long time.  You think Iran's missile
           test has something to do with the silly American mid-term elections?
           Tell us your theory.
           \_ /shrug. No theory, just asking.
              \_ Seriously, I doubt the Iranians are trying to change our
                 elections with a missile test.  If they nuked something or
                 sent 200k soliders into Iraq or something that like it would
                 have an effect but I don't think it would be predictable
                 exactly *what* effect.  Sometimes a missile test is just a
                 missile test.  Once they conduct a successful nuke test then
                 there'll be something to worry about.
2006/11/2-4 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:45107 Activity:low
11/02   I need to include instructions on how to create a tcpdump file as part
        of a Word Doc testplan . What I would like to do is to be able to cut
        and paste from a Unix shell window into a word document without
        losing the formatting or having it come out like regular text.
        Is there a template or mode I can use for this inside word?
        --Thanks Stressed out linux hacker
        \_ ???  It's a single command.  Why not just type tcpdump and your
           options in at that point in the doc?  Are you cut'n'pasting tcpdump
           output or just the command to run tcpdump?
                \__ Sorry; I was just giving a high level summary; there
                 bunch of other setup to do since this both a playback and
                record along with a file transmission. There are about 15 or
                so things the user needs to type out and monitor. The real
                point of the question is: How can I import something into word
                from a unix shell w/o all the tabbing getting screwed up and
                looking like crap.
                \_ This sounds like a one-off doc.  I'd just c'n'p each of
                   the 15+ lines once per and forget about it.  You shouldn't
                   have funny tabbing or anything from a single line.  Do you
                   have an example of what you're trying to copy in?
        \_ Why use a word doc when a plain text file would work better?
           \_ Because word looks better.
                \_ The tabbing issue comes due the fact that this in outline
                 form per the corp testplan spec. So I need to have lines
                roughly tabbed in 1/2 way. e.g.

                                        %unix  ssh root@DUT
                                        %DUT  df -f .  ( check for free space)
                                        %DUT  ifconfig em1 up
                Things need to remain tabbed and all that. I am also supposed
                to put commands in one font and user type-ins in italics
                ( I really really miss the days of plain text docs). I was
                hoping that there was something in Word that would already do
                this (like an emacs mode).
                \_ Sorry but not that I know of.  For the tabbing you can
                   set a marker from the top horizontal bar thingy with the
                   little arrows on it (someone help me out here) so that
                   section of text is auto shifted right to where ever.
                   The italics and etc you'll have to do yourself AFAIK.
2006/11/2-4 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:45108 Activity:nil
11/02   Why is "no modifier" in Java also referred to as package-private?
        That is just confusing terminology.
        \_ I think it used to be referred to as "friendly".
        \_ "no modifier" is the same as default visibility.  Default visibility
           is package-level.  The terminology is fine.  You could debate the
           choice of defaults.
2006/11/2-4 [Consumer/Camera, Computer/HW/Printer] UID:45109 Activity:kinda low
11/02   A one megapixel picture on screen looks pretty good.  Yet if you print
        the same picture on a sheet of paper that's the same size as the screen
        image, it looks bad regardless of what inkjet/laser printer you use.
        Why is there a difference?
        \_ That's a good question.  Assuming a proper photo print out
           (real developed photo or dye-sublimation printing), I can
           think of a couple of possibilities.  One is that a monitor
           is an active display device (it glows at you) whereas a
           printed media is a passive medium (it only reflects
           light).  That probably gives the monitor a perceived
           advantage.  Another is that printed medium usually has
           higher resolution.  Since the dots are smaller, we may look
           closer, expecting more.  If the printed medium's pixels are
           made the same size as that of a monitor output, it may
           reduce the perceived difference.  It's kind of like
           displaying DVD-resolution video using HDTV-resolution
           display device.  Unless the scaling algorithm is very good,
           it gives worse perceived crispness to the image than when
           the same image is displayed using matching resolution
           display device.
        \_ Because we're used to seeing crappy-looking images on screen.  -tom
        \_ I'm not sure about 1mp, but photo paper always made shit nice.
        \_ Two factors.  1. surface of paper is not smooth.  2. the resolution
           of printer is very limited.
           \_ Look, if you don't know the answer, just keep your mouth shut,
              OK?  Printer resolution is *much higher* than screen resolution.
              Your screen runs at maybe 100dpi; cheap printers print at
              600dpi, good ones higher than that.  -tom
              \_ yeah, how may color can a printer produce per pixel again?
                 we are talking about EFFECTIVE pixel here.  If all you have
                 is a 16-color EGA screen, you will need a quite a bit
                 DPI to make the picture look half-way decent.  *FURTHER*
                 many of the printer has a much lower mechanical resolution
                 than optical resolution.  And the mechanical resolution is
                 typicaly max out at 300 dpis.
                 \_ which is still three times better than your screen.
                    And while your video card may produce 16 million colors,
                    that's almost certainly more than your monitor can
                    display, especially most LCD panels.  Cheap inkjet
                    printers can produce fine-looking prints from files
                    of sufficient resolution; 1 megapixel is simply not
                    enough resolution.  You could sent one to a pro developer
                    and it still would look fairly crappy.  Again, it looks
                    good on screen because we are willing to accept extremely
                    low-resolution images on screen (TV is only 320x240).  -tom
                    \_ Actually many (most?) LCD are 8-bit now (16M colors).
                       They may only produce like 73% of the color space
                       but some get to high 90s. Either way it is much better
                       than a cheap inkjet printer which may have like 16
              \_ whoa there tom.
                   _n_  ______
                 _/o  \/      \@  _________
                O_      pig    )=( tom__I_ \______
                  \___/\______/   \ \     \_____ I
                        II  II     II           II
        \_ On your monitor, each pixel is RGB 888 or 16M possible colors
           per pixel. Printers have far less color precision. They can only
           produce those colors by dithering etc. with more dots.
           produce those colors by dithering etc. with more dots. There should
           be some scale to print at that would look around the same though.
           Dye-sublimation printers can do the full color range.
        \_ Is this a home print job or you used one of the various online
           \_ Actually, I tried both an Epson Stylus Photo 1200 inkjet at home,
              and various 600dpi mid-range color laser printers at work.  -- OP
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:45110 Activity:low
        \_ It's not a good year to be a hypocritical social conservative
        \_ I looked into this a bit.  At this point there's a guy who says he
           was getting paid to have sex with "Pastor Ted" for 3 years and
           claims to have incriminating voice mail and emails but refuses to
           show anything to anyone.  It may be entirely true but I'm really
           bored with unsubstantiated allegations being tossed around to
           destroy people's lives without so much as a "and here's a single
           voice mail that shows it, and I have more".  But oh boy, he did
           say he'd take a lie detector test which are known to be worthless.
           He wouldn't need the useless lie detector test if he actually
           revealed any of his voice mails.  It's all very fishy and annoying.
        \_ It's not a good year to be a hypocritical social conservative.  Yes,
           yes, accusation != conviction.
           \_ In politics accusation == conviction.
              \_ But he's not a politican, he's a pastor... ah right... same
                 things these days.  Go go, United States of Megachurch!
                 \_ If it wasn't politically OP wouldn't have called him a
                    social conservative instead of a pastor.
                 \_ "these days" as opposed to what 8 whole years ago? The
                     trend in the nation is away from church doctrine and has
                     been since at least the scopes trial.  If you think
                     otherwise, you are delusional. -an agnostic.
                     \_ And if you haven't been paying attention to the new
                        trends in who holds the reins on morality and what
                        they're saying, you've been under a rock the last 10
                        \_ The reins of morality have always been held by the
                           same people.  What has changed?
        \_ The sad thing is, no matter which way this pans out, it'll be bad for
           gays:  accuser is lying    -> "look at the horrible gay agenda!"
                  accuser is truthful -> "look at how they corrupted a good,
                                          good man!"
        \_ Well at least they weren't married.
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:45111 Activity:nil
11/02   R's go apeshit on Kerry, Dem polling gets even better:
        \_ it's probably the "i remember the last time i had a choice between
           the student-body president (kerry) and the asshole-in-chief (dubya)"
           effect, or maybe people realize now a 1-party govt fucking sucks
           effect, or maybe people realize now a 1-party govt isn't working
           \_ No one likes the snobby student body president types.  And
              no one likes Kerry.  Not even the motd usuals bother trying to
              defend him in any real way.  W may be the aic, but Kerry is still
              an elitist holier-than-thou prick.  As far as 1-party governments
              go, you could swap any number of R for any number of D in
              Congress and you'd still have a 1-party government.  It's all
              just bread n circuses.  They pork the budget, pork their pages,
              pork their interns, and pork their wallets full of cash after
              they finally leave office and become 'consultants' for the next
              round of pigs.
              \_ You got my point exactly:  No one likes the asshole-in-chief
                 or the student-body president, but people are remembering
                 the last time they had a choice, which was my point.
                 What, did you think I dredged up "student-body president" as
                 a neutral or pro-kerry phrase?  c'mon.
                 As for 1-part govt, I'd agree that an all-Dem govt may be
                 a suspect as an all-GOP govt, but I feel that having one
                 heading executive and one heading legislative is less worse
                 than one controlling both.
                 \_ Would it really be so crazy to have a no-party government?
                    I think parties have outlived their usefulness and do far
                    more harm than good.
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:45112 Activity:nil
        shows that medicare is 19% of "mandatory" federal spending.  It also
        lists "health" as being another 13% of off budget spending.  What
        does this consist of ?
        \_ VA dept?
2006/11/2-3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45113 Activity:nil
11/02   Does motdedit work for you all?  It just dumps me out with a
        successfull exit code (0).
        \_ Works for me (using it now). Check your $EDITOR environment
           variable. -gm
        \_ Only GIRLY MEN use motdedit. -overwritinator
2006/11/2-3 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:45114 Activity:nil
11/02   I have a bunch of directories with files (and other directories)
        in them. I have a mirrored copy that contains many of the same
        files, but with different dates. Is there an easy way (short of
        writing s/w to check each file against the other) to do something
        like : If date on mirror < 10/31, then sync date with other dir?
        I don't think rsync can help with this. I just need the dates
        changed, not the contents of the files. Changing the contents
        could actually be bad.
        \_ Why would you want to do this?  (Curious, and it might help to come
           up with a better solution)
        \_ Does one line of perl count as "writing s/w"?
        \_ find; grab time stamp; stamp matching file
           \_ The catch is that a checksum needs to be done at some point.
              Obviously, you could add a step to checksum in there, too. I was
              just wondering if there's a utility to do this. Essentially,
              I want rsync, but to have rsync only change dates and not
              contents. If you read the rsync man page, you will see that
              rsync has a lot more options than find for deciding when to
              do what.
              \_ What role does the checksum play in this? Are you trying to
                 do something more than set the timestamp on /mirror/file to
                 the timestamp on /primary/file if the timestamp on/mirror/file
                 is more than N days old, or something more complicated?
              \_ If you're really too lazy to write something trivial in perl,
                 you could use rsync with the -n option to find the relevant
                 files, and pipe that to xargs/foreach.  -tom
                 \_ I broke down and did this. It was not too bad. Thanks.
2006/11/2-3 [Uncategorized] UID:45115 Activity:nil 62%like:45146
11/2    It's here. Cell phone SMS spams. Anyone having problems?
2006/11/2-4 [Reference/BayArea, Industry/Jobs] UID:45116 Activity:moderate
10/2    Anybody ever used the "cost-of-living" salary calculators on the web?
        I'm using the one on and also on  They're
        giving me vastly different numbers.  Putting in a round number of
        100,000 as salary in San Jose, CA, if I move to Houston, TX, the web site shows that I would have to earn 64K.  But the site shows that I'd have to earn 45K.  Which site
        to trust?  And what is the source of these numbers?  Neither site
        says how they calculate these things.  Thanks.
        \_ Even accounting for all the excellent "life is about living" advice
           given below, the calculators still do a very poor job of translating
           from one city to another.  Your rent in Houston may be lower but
           other living expenses are static.  A new car, computer, your next
           vacation, utilities, clothing, and a ton of other things don't
           change that much in price by location.  The 45K number is garbage.
           the 64K 'feels' very low.  I wouldn't leave this area for 64k in
           Texas even though the people there are nicer and living is easier.
           I might think about 80k if it was a great job with great people I
           knew and lots of upside.  90k would be more like it as a minimum
           to go from here at 100k to there into random job.  For me.  Whatever
           you do, you should definitely fly out there for a few days, drive
           around, see what the city is like, talk to realtors, chat with the
           locals, etc, before making any big decisions.
        \- people have convex perferences generally but with something
           like this people trade offs are wildly different. it may not
           be hard to compare rent/mortgage for same square footage
           of living space, but other factors are hard to compare both
           for hard to capture intanglible reasons [i would much prefer to
           drive bumper to bumper on the bay bridge for 45 or drive fast on
           280 for 45 min than to drive medium speed on ugly 101 for 45min].
           and even if some study could some how capture these factors,
           you know your preferences better than other people. some people
           would rather have a 2400sq ft house and a giant tv and swimming
           \_ Are you talking about dim, aka the average American with
              the typical big American dream of owning big SUVs, 4 children,
              2 dogs, and a BBQ grills in the backyard?
              \_ I hate dogs, kids, and SUVs. BBQ is fine. --dim
              \_ I hate dogs, kids, and SUVs. BBQ is fine. --gay dim
                                                             \_ This is so
                                                                Don't quit
                                                                your day job.
           pool in freeemont, others would rather live in 900ft space in sf
           \_ Only Eurotrash aka I-Hate-America German John and Socialist
           \_ Only Eurotrash aka I-Hate-America German John and anarchist
              lafe like urban living. The average American hates urban living.
              \_ Which is precisely why we urbanites love it. -dans
                 \_ Jawohl.  And as to below, ditto here, but I can always
                    get out of the city.  And when I do, I want to visit
                    nature, not Fresno.  -John
                 \- i dont like "urban living" because it keeps me away
                    from suburbanites. i just like living a lot of my life
                    outside the house. i generally meet friends at a bar
                    or a restaurant or a cafe. rather than going
                    over to people's houses or having them over.
                    i think if you live in some place like danville
                    or the almaden valley you probably spend more
                    time at home with your "stuff" rather than going
                    out. i also eat out a lot. i'm not being judgemental
                    here, just suggesting the preferences here are
                    radically different. i dont get milage out of having
                    my car broken into or none of the movie theaters
                    having "plenty of free parking", but that's ok
                    with me. it's still worth it .. but might not
                    be for somebody who likes spending time at home
                    with the wife and kids and working in his garage
                    woodshop. note also, before peet's/starbucks, ranch99,
                    good standard bakeries, the current ubiquity of indian
                    and thair restaurants, amazon [for books] there was a
                    and thai restaurants, amazon [for books] there was a
                    lot of "diversity" not really available easily in
                    not lot of "diversity" easily available in
                    the 'burbs. obviously this has changed a lot in
                    berkeley/walnut creek/palo alto/freemont etc.
                    if you were going to do the exact same job, how much
                    would they have to pay you to move to stockon? bakesrfield?
                    fresno? would you move to fresno for a year for $50k
                    in "hazard" pay? [no offense slouie] .. i'd reject that
                    instantly. 50k wouldnt really change my life at all
                    but i think i'd be hating that year.
                    but i think i'd be hating that year. [althought i'd
                    be willing to spend 2 days there for $250].
           and spend money on cocktails not plasma tv. so people living
           in huston and manhattan are probably looking for different things,
           so you cant take a static bundle and just price it in different
           markets. i think what makes the most sense is to compare specific
           places [say SF vs Manhattan or Chicago ... where you would be
           holding "lifestyle" reasonably constant] or decide if your
           priorities have changed and you want to change lifestyle ...
           for example a house-owning mech eng i know in san jose has
           decided to become an optometrist because she wants to live in
           the sierra foothills. in some cases you can bite the bullet and
           live a livestyle you dont want to live for a few years in return
           for big dollars, but usually that involves moving to dubai or
           iraq, not BF nowhere, USA. to move to houston i'd have to be paid
           more cash, not be able to live better at my current salary ...
           because you could not buy anything to compensate for living in
           houston vs SF ... it would be a matter of saving the money for
           future consumption.
2006/11/2-3 [Uncategorized] UID:45117 Activity:nil
10/2    Political views aren.t just random opinions thrown together by
        a combination of environmental influences.
2006/11/2-4 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:45118 Activity:nil
11/02   M$ to "support" SuSE: (
        I guess RH's days are numbered.
        \_ RH has horrible response/support and high prices.  We have a few
           zillion seats and they made it very clear they couldn't care less
           about our business.  The distro team is currently investigating
           other options.  Bye RH.
           \_ There aren't many other options.
              \_ I've been seeing lots of corporations switching from RH
                 to SuSE, mostly b/c they can continue to use RPMS, &c.
                 but they don't have to deal w/ RH's BS. I have not seen
                 much interest in CentOS (but that is probably b/c there
                 isn't a big company behind it).
              \_ There are enough options and we only need one.  And now
                 Oracle is providing another that wasn't available when we
                 first started looking into dumping RH.  One way or another
                 we *will* dump RH.  They suck, they are history at this
                 shop, and they don't care about the loss.
                 \_ What do you mean? Isn't Oracle providing support for RH?
                    I'd dump RH, but realistically more apps are supported
                    under RH.
                    \_ Yes I just said the Oracle thing. ???.  We don't need
                       support for Joe's Open Source Kewlness Doom3 Clone App.
                       We need support for core OS, patches, RPM updates, etc.
                       \_ If Oracle is providing support for RH,  and you
                          go with that then how exactly are you dumping
                          RH? You would still be using RH.
                          \_ Easy.  Oracle gets the money, not RH.  If we went
                             that way.  They also charge less.  It's just one
                             more option being considered but most likely
                             we'll change to a different vendor entirely and
                             ditch RH entirely as fast as possible once a final
                             decision has been made.
2006/11/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45119 Activity:nil
11/02   I don't get it.  Moqtada Al-Sadr kidnaps a U.S. soldier.  We surrender
        our barricades and abandon him on orders of the Iraqi PM.  The
        media is largely silent.  John Kerry makes a dumb joke - SCANDAL!
        \_ I agree.  but didn't the guy marry an iraqi?  or he was an
           iraqi?  or shiite?  or sunni?  argh so confused.
2006/11/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45120 Activity:nil
11/02   Bus driver fired over obscene gesture made during a Bush visit:
        [ sorry I don't remember the original color language ]
2006/11/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:45121 Activity:nil
11/02   you've seen the website:
        but have you seen the interview:
        \_ gay gay gay
        \_ Reminds me of a Spiderman dancing animation that someone posted
        \_ Keywords: peter pan gay weird funny
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45122 Activity:moderate
11/02   Americans always say their core value is promote democracy.
        Besides recent boycott of Hamas, we got this in Nicaragua:
        This, and US past involvement in Iran, Guatemala, Chili, etc.
        Are you guys still dumb enough to think USA really believe in
        \_ Yes, the USA is all about promoting democracy.  Our democracy,
           right here in the US.  We cannot let any foreign government
           of any kind keep us from our God-given right to exploit
           foreign resources, products, and labor for the lowest cost.
           That is how we promote our democracy.
           \_ Actually, yes, that's the way it's been going.  We are committed
              to the democratic cause that all governments should be of the
              (American) people, by the (American) people, for the (American)
        \_ Hi chicom!
           \_ i am still waiting for you comment on this issue of
              "promoting democracy world wide" thing.
              \_ Why should I defend a straw man you set up?  Are you so
                 dumb that you actually believe what you wrote?
                 \_ I look at facts, and don't treat democracy as a religion.
                    you guys need to look at facts more coldly.  The fact
                    is, American talk about democracy, and they believe in
                    it too.  Just that it is never a first priority.  The
                    actual profit and exploit of resources always trump
                    democracy.  This is why we have no problem overthow
                    democratically elected government in Iran, Guatemula,
                    Chili, and now Palestine.  And we have no issue supporting
                    dictators, Monachs, Islamtic extremests world wide to
                    advance US agenda at the time. That, combine with severe
                    lack of sense of history tend to create very naive &
                    myopic policies.   Yet, at the same time, American don't
                    realize they are the aggressors, invading countries,
                    set up unfair trade policies, and torture people world
                    \_ 2 things: 1) any nation that puts a philosophy above
                       the health of the state at all times is suicidal.
                       2) the neocons in this country share your belief that
                       we should always ignore #1.  that hasn't worked out
                       that well.
                       \_ 1. America ALWAYS waging crusade, putting philosophy
                          abvoe health of the state.  Think "Evil Empire"
                          and "War on Terror."
                          2. good try, I didn't know you share the same
                          believe as Adolf Hitler.
        \_ Hamas, ah yes, beacon of democracy in the middle east.  Personally,
           I prefer Chinese style "charge the family for the bullet"
           democracy.  None of that messy voting or listening to the peasants.
           \_ given the choice of Chinese style government verus American-style
              democracy in Iraq, and Bosnia, I take Chinese style government
              any day.   It seems successful democracy need to go through
              a period of genocide.  America, Turkey, Bosnia, Iraq.
              Democracy is great, but given the choice, I prefer avoid
              genocide at any cost.
              \_ "at any cost".  Yes, safety above all else at all times.
                 The direct path to slavery.  A good call if you want to
                 live in chains and die at the whim of any passing
                 government official.  In all seriousness, if you really
                 believe what you said, you're not only in the wrong country,
                 you're in the wrong culture.  No where in the West has a
                 place for that kind of thinking.  And taking a quick look at
                 the standard of living for free people vs. enslaved people
                 around the world, you'll find a lot more of the enslaved
                 trying to get to free countries than the opposite.  But
                 that just makes plenty of room for you in your oppressive
                 country of choice.  That'll be the last choice you make.
                 \_ No where in the West?  my friend, let me kindly remind
                    you something.  This "Western" culture which values
                    basic rights of men traditionally ONLY apply to WHITEs.
                    This is the reason why just a couple years after America
                    declare its independence, it offers troops to *CRUSH*
                    Haiti's independence from French rule.  This is also
                    the reason why we defeated Nazi's occupation of France,
                    yet *SUPPORT* French occupation of Algeria and so-called
                    Do I believe personal freedom? yes.  Do I believe these
                    fredom includes political participations?  After I've
                    seen half dozens of countries/regions either fell
                    into sectarian violence or rise in ethnic tensions,
                    I am not sure any more.  It is easy for *YOU* to say
                    Iraqis are better off today than under Saddam's rule.
                    Try to live in Iraq (outside the green zone) for two weeks
                    you might get a sense of what I am getting at.
                    What you don't get is that freedom to participate in
                    political process is something "nice to have." but it
                    is by no means a necesscity.  Food, shelters,
                    personal SAFETY all take precedent.  Americans who
                    lives in the comfort of their own country certainly
                    don't understand this.  This is why Americans decided
                    that consitution, election is more important than security.
                    And at this rate, American is just going to leave and let
                    the violence taken its course.   The REALLY sad part is
                    that most Americans STILL DIDN'T learn from this lesson
                    which already cost hundres of thousands of lives.
        \_ Yes, I see the U.S. flag waving everywhere I go. I know the sun
           never sets on it. I see how we directly vote for our govern't
           just like a republic should. Despite all of this I can easily
           see that Communism is such a successful sys, that I don't know why
           we don't have it here. Yes, I don't know how or why a bigger
           country would try to make itself richer off a poorer country.
           I mean that's downright wrong - we should give away our all $
        \_ Hey chicom, here's a more interesting question.  In order to be
           "pro-democracy" should the US support Hugo Chavez, as the elected
           leader of Argentina, or be against him because he is dismantling
           the Argentinian Democracy?
           \_ "I love *you*, but I *don't* love _you_!"   "But! We are the
              same in all ways!  Logical inconsistency!  Brain is frying!
              Mordron save us!"  Bvvvvvrrrrrrr, click.
           \_ Argentina? Hugo Chavez? There are adults speaking here.
              \_ he is one of 60% of Americans who don't know where is Mexico
                 on a world map.  give him a break.
2006/11/2 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45123 Activity:nil
11/02   Just keep repeating it: free speech and the freedom to dissent
        are Republican Values. Only Democrats try to silence
2022/01/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:November:02 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>