Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:October:24 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2006/10/24-25 [Uncategorized] UID:44937 Activity:nil
10/24   The busty Lady McCartney (NSFW):
        http://www.elreporterodelacomunidad.com/img/110606_mills.jpg
        I guess Sir Paul really has a taste on busty women:
        http://news.yahoo.com/photo/010209/167/5bfsd.html
        (Who's she anyway?)
        \_ The soon to be ex McCartney looks like every other web bimbo.
           \_ Well, aside from she's an amputee, yeah.
           \_ But this one is styled Lady.  You don't see a nude noble often.
2006/10/24-25 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW/OS] UID:44938 Activity:nil
10/25   any good open-source RTS or turn-based game?  I play FreeCiv.  I really
        enjoy master of orient, comand and conquer, and starcraft.  anything
        good around that calibre?  I am looking for single-player game.
        \_ Not really.  OS isn't very good at turning out great games.  There
           are very few OS games worth playing.  Most of OS gaming effort is
           spent on knock off clones or on the opened quake source.
           \_ Even though it's sort of redundant, saying "OSS" helps
              disambiguate quite a bit.  "I tried that OS OS, but couldn't
              install it, so I just put that OS Software on my Windows OS"
              install it, so I just put that OS software on my Windows OS"
              \_ Yeah I thought of doing that but since we're talking games,
                 not operation systems I thought it was clear.
        \_ Give "Battle for Wesnoth" a whirl.  It's sort of a cross between
           Civ and Heroes of Might and Magic.  Plenty of user created
           campaigns you can download from within the game as a "plug-in."
           http://www.wesnoth.org
           \_ The floating eye hits you.
              You are paralyzed.
              The fox bites you!
              The fox bites you!
              The fox bites you!
              The fox bites you!
              You die...
              \_ floating eyes do not attack.  Their gaze is reflexive.
                 Shoot me now.
                 \_ there's something oddly disturbing about that.
        \_ whatever happened to xconq, that was an awesome game (for its time)
2006/10/24-26 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:44939 Activity:nil
10/24   The Onion would have done so much better with this headline
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061024/ts_nm/environment_wwf_planet_dc
        \_ "On current projections humanity, will be using two planets' worth
           of natural resources by 2050 -- if those resources have not run out
           by then,"  No wonder those hot WWF valets always walk around
           by then,"  No wonder those hot sexy WWF valets always walk around
           carrying two planets in front of them.  I love WWF!
        \_ "Leape said China, home to a fifth of the world's population and
           whose economy is booming, was making the right move in pledging to
           reduce its energy consumption by 20 percent over the next five years."
           20% in 5 yrs!  How do they plan to achieve that?  And our goal is what,
           single-digit percentage in double-digit number of years?
           reduce its energy consumption by 20 percent over the next five
           years."  20% in 5 yrs!  How do they plan to achieve that?  And our
           goal is what, single-digit percentage in double-digit number of
           years?
2006/10/24-26 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:44940 Activity:low
10/24   So why is Firefox at 2.0 now?  Granted this revision is a bit bigger
        than most minor revisions, but neither the program architecture or
        plugin interface changed much.
        \_ Marketing?  Maybe even free software needs marketing?
           \_ The marketing wants to be freeeeee!!1111
        \_ http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/2.0/releasenotes/#whatsnew
           \_ Sounds like it should be called 1.6.0.0 instead.
        \_ Related question: Is anyone having a issue w/ the netflix queue
           page under FF2.0? I get an error that some script is taking too
           long to run and I should abort it. This didn't happen on FF1.5.x.
           \_ Works for me with FF2.0  200+ movies in queue.
              \_ Hmm, maybe it is b/c I have 400+ movies in my queue.
           \_ They might have just tweaked the max time value; you can change
              it yourself via about:config, look for dom.max_script_run_time
              --dbushong
2006/10/24-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44941 Activity:nil
10/24   Finally!  The Truth Is Out There!  http://www.uncoveror.com/index.html
2006/10/24-26 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Recreation/Sports] UID:44942 Activity:nil
10/24   oski crowd surfing from the game:
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=iChgCGa0ikg
2006/10/24-26 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:44943 Activity:nil
10/24   Why does hyperthreading slow things down?  I can imagine why it may not
        be faster than a one-thread CPU (maybe too many bottlenecks), but how
        can it be even slower than a one-thread CPU?
        \_ When two procs are doing the same thing, they'll gain no benefit
           from HT and HT simply adds overhead.  Two dissimilar procs will do
           well.
           \_ (Where pp says 'proc', read 'process', not 'processor')
        \_ Useless overhead.
           \_ Did Intel not test its own design before releasing it to the
              market?
              \_ Of course they did.  In most circumstances HT is worth using
                 but for some applications it is just overhead and should be
                 disabled.  *In general* HT is good for applications where UI
                 responsiveness is more important than shaving over a few
                 microseconds or increasing FPS by 1.5.  It is bad for a
                 situation where your single threaded application is cpu
                 bound and the only process running on a machine.  There are
                 many other in between cases of course and YMMV but overall
                 HT is a good thing and should be turned on unless you know
                 it will hurt your use.  Profile and test if you care.
                 \_ We found the opposite. We found that in most instances
                    HT hurt performance and so by default we turn it off.
                    YMMV.
                    \_ What was Intel thinking???
2006/10/24-26 [Computer/Domains] UID:44944 Activity:nil
10/24   HTTP Cookies: is there a difference between specifying
        "domain=.aol.com" and "domain=aol.com" ?  I can't find this answer
        on the web.  Thanks.
        \_ From RFC 2109:     --dbushong
           Host A's name domain-matches host B's if
           * both host names are IP addresses and their host name strings match
             exactly; or
           * both host names are FQDN strings and their host name strings match
             exactly; or
           * A is a FQDN string and has the form NB, where N is a non-empty name
             string, B has the form .B', and B' is a FQDN string.  (So, http://x.y.com
             domain-matches <DEAD>.y.com<DEAD> but not http://y.com.)
           * A is a FQDN string and has the form NB, where N is a non-empty
             name string, B has the form .B', and B' is a FQDN string.  (So,
             http://x.y.com domain-matches <DEAD>.y.com<DEAD> but not http://y.com.)
2006/10/24-26 [Reference/Tax] UID:44945 Activity:nil
10/24   How does property tax affect the value of homes? Is there a good
        correlation between a state's property tax rate and its averaged
        assessed home values? For example I've heard that Texas's proprety
        tax is over 2X of CA but equivalent home values are approximately
        less than 1/2.
        \_ More expensive homes don't cost (significantly) more to provide
           services for than cheaper ones.  Therefore if two different areas
           both need to collect $X in taxes to provide services, and the homes
           in one area cost more on average, the area can afford to tax at a
           lower rate and they'll still collect $X.  Duh.
        \_ No, there is not. IOW, California real estate is not expensive
           simply because property taxes are on the lower side. For
           example, Connecticut's property tax is just over 2% and yet
           property values are higher than Texas.
        \_ *IF* all else being equal, higher property tax rate will mean lower
           home sale values because it increases the cost of ownership,
           which (in Alameda county) will mean lower assessed values.  But in
           reality there are too many other varying factors which obscure the
           picture.
2006/10/24-26 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:44946 Activity:moderate
10/24   Dear $200K man. Don't buy a home unless you are seriously prepared
        for it. Sure there are countless good reasons for buying a home
        but you need to ask yourself whether the purchase will fit your
        lifestyle. It may be the right decision for many people out there
        but you need to evaluate YOUR own needs. Data point: We purchased a
        home last year when we were all hyped up by our friends, HGTV,
        Extreme Makeover shows, etc. Things were great for a few months.
        We were excited about our new home, new furnitures, and upgrades.
        When the honeymoon period was over reality started to hit.
        After paying property taxes, countless expensive trips to Home
        Depot, HOA, Adjusted Supplemental Tax, reassessment fees, and many
        unexpected and surprising $$$ maintenance work, we were basically
        burning through our life long savings within one year. This year,
        I'm totally stressed out because our entire savings account is
        approaching $0 and unless I get a 15% raise or get a nice bonus this
        year I may simply have to take out loans and find other means to
        extend my current lifestyle, which already means not going out to
        eat out, no vacations, no PS3, and no Christmas toys. Unless you buy
        a cheap home AND make over 1/3 of the total loan AND enjoy going
        to Home Depot every other weekend and pay unexpected costs associated
        with homes, I don't recommend buying one as an investment. Good luck
        and please tell us what you ended up doing!
        \_ I think you are right about this being a "lifestyle" choice.  I
           hate it with the typical rent vs. buy debate.  Most of the time
           people are comparing apple to orange.  It is like saying
           leasing a Kia is cheaper than buying a Lexsus because both are
           cars and get you from point A to B.  Renting an apartment is
           not the same as buying a house soley based on the fact that
           they provide shelter.  You buy a home because you want the
           benefits associated with it such as not sharing a wall with
           your loud and inconsiderate neighbor.  Housing is one of the
           \_ You can rent a home, you can buy a condo.
              \_ Yes, but most "debate" about rent vs. buy is about
                 renting something smaller and buying something bigger.
                 Either way, the OP didn't do his homework before jumping
                 into property owership.  Do you think his last landlord
                 only charged his PITI as rent and not included any
                 of the "unexpected" expense?
           few necassity in life where you could potentially "make"
           money from.  It is not totally an investment.
           money from.  It is not totally an investment nor is it
           just an expense.  So, if you don't want the hassle associated
           with ownership, by all means, go rent an apartment or a house.
           Just realize that, at the end of the month, all the same
           expense you have now, your landlord has it too.  You will
           ultimately pay the same thing thru rent.
        \_ op is exhibit one for "dumbass", but that doesn't mean that buying
           a home is necessarily a good investment.  You can easily spend more
           these days on the _non-principal_ parts of home ownership than you
           would (total) on rent.  Think about that.  The home is only remotely
           an investment when either:
           a) it's increasing in value
           b) you're putting money into the principal
           (a)'s not really true right now and if you're spending more money
           on not-(b) than you'd spend renting, you're better off renting and
           putting the difference into a good investment that _is_ increasing
           in value.  (Yes, yes, of course count interest and property tax as
           deductions before you come up with your final numbers.)
           \_ Pray tell, what are you doing to spend that much money on
              "non-principal parts of home ownership"?
              \_ I think he means maintenance and repairs. I probably
                 spend more each year on that sort of stuff than I would
                 to rent a cheap studio apartment somewhere. An apartment
                 would cover trash and water, too.
              \_ OP mentioned new furnitures.  -- !PP
              \_ Mortgage interest, points, PMI, Property Tax, Utilities that
                 might be otherwise included in rent, maintenance, repairs,
                 homeowners insurance... --pp
                 \_ If you didn't include intrest, points (one time fee that)
                    PMI (there's a reason you should always do 20% down)
                    property tax and insurance into account when you bought,
                    well, you were a moron.  And I'm amazed your mortgage
                    broker didn't point those all out to you before you bought.
                    \_ I never said these were surprise fees; I was just listing
                       possible sources of non-principal expenditures related
                       to owning a home.  Nice strawman, though.
                    \_ I never said these were surprise fees; I was just
                       listing possible sources of non-principal expenditures
                       related to owning a home.  Nice strawman, though.
                       \_ sorry, I thought you were the person complaining
                          about unexpected costs.
                 \_ Plus homeowners association fees.
                    \_ I just want to point out that if I have to pay some
                       motherfucker money for the privelage of having them
                       tell my to cut my lawn, paint my house in a certain way,
                       and generally buy into their little cult, I don't really
                       consider that ownership.  Paying taxes to the local
                       government which will put the fire out if your house
                       catches on fire is one thing, but once some fucking
                       corporation starts asking for money and enforcing rules,
                       you're taking one step backwards towards serfdom.  I'd
                       rather own a little bunker outright in a piece of remote
                       swampland than be a fucking serf in your suburb no matter
                       how much square footage I get.  Some day you bastards
                       realize you are on the path to slavery.  Until then
                       good luck.
                       swampland than be a fucking serf in your suburb no
                       matter how much square footage I get.  Some day you
                       bastards realize you are on the path to slavery.  Until
                       then good luck.
                       \_ You're confused.  My HOA fees are $80 month.  That
                          covers them hiring people to take care of my front
                          lawn and a bunch of other stuff.  You're thinking
                          condo associations.  If you *really* want a purple
                          and orange house with a glowing green door I didn't
                          want you as a neighbor anyway.  Short of that and
                          your pig farm, HOAs are reasonably harmless.
                          \_ Why would a purple and orange house bother
                             you to that extent? Shouldn't people be free
                             to paint heir houses other than the same
                             shade of beige as every other house in the
                             association?
                             \_ Because it's tasteless and drives down prices.
                                They should be free to do whatever they want
                                as long as it doesn't screw other people.  It
                                isn't for everyone.  Don't do it if you don't
                                want it just don't whine when your neighbor
                                sets up a pig farm or has chickens and there's
                                nothing you can do about it.  Those roosters
                                get really loud at sun-up.
                                \_ Zoning laws address whether one can
                                   raise chickens or hogs. As for whether
                                   it's tasteless to paint your house some
                                   color other than beige, that's just
                                   your opinion. Lots of victorians look
                                        \_ It is the opinion of most home
                                           buyers which is what counts.
                                           \_ It is the opinion of HOA
                                              Nazis, not most home buyers.
                                   great in purple. It also doesn't drive
                                        \_ Seen a victorian in the bay area
                                           recently?
                                           \_ Yes, in this small little
                                              town called San Francisco
                                              for one.
                                   down prices. Prices are determined
                                   mostly by the size of the house and the
                                   location (comparables). Color isn't an
                                   issue, because it's easily changed. Why
                                        \_ Sure it is.  If my neighbor is
                                           raising pigs and has 8 cars in
                                           front on blocks in their purple,
                                           orange and green house, then my
                                           home price will drop.  I can not
                                           easily change their color.
                                           \_ Again, zoning addresses the
                                              issue of raising animals
                                              and usually the number of
                                              cars one can have. The color
                                              of a house is not significant in
                                              any way, because a new buyer
                                              can change it. How much less
                                              do you think a purple house
                                              is going to fetch relative
                                              to the beige one next to it?
                                              $2K? Oh my God! Your house
                                              is now worth only $710K
                                              instead of $712K. That's really
                                              worth being a Nazi over. You
                                              people who love HOAs
                                              (instead of just tolerate
                                              them) make me sick. I hope
                                              a kid falls down on your HOA
                                              sidewalk and sues the HOA
                                              for millions and you get to
                                              cough up your share. Then
                                              you will appreciate HOAs more.
                                   must you be a Nazi about what color
                                   someone paints his/her house?
                                        \_ See above.
                       \_ Plenty of condos are like 2-6 units, and the "HOA"
                          is really just a few people who meet every now and
                          to figure out how to handle what issues have popped
                          up.  Not all condos are 200 unit monstorsities.
                          \_ I don't think he's upset about condo HOAs,
                             but did you realize that if the HOA gets sued
                             (e.g. someone hurts himself on a cracked
                             sidewalk) then all owners share in the pain?
                             \_funny you should mention that, as our HOA
                               got sued by one of the members, who was upset
                               that they couldn't get an expansion approved.
                       \_ Absolutely. Luckily, HOAs aren't all that common
                          is much of CA, since they tend to be associated
                          with new development.
                          \_  New development--in other words the problem is
                              getting worse.  My problem with this is not that
                              I'm afraid I will have trouble buying a home
                              with no HOA, it's the value system represented
                              by people who think that's ok.
                              \_ I still think you don't know what HOAs are
                                 about but whatever.
                                 \_ HOAs are about people foreclosing on
                                    your house because your grass is too
                                    long.
                                    \_ No, but ok.  Whatever.  Go find a cabin
                                       in the woods.  Just don't send people
                                       bombs.
                                       \_ Yes, they can. If the HOA fines
                                          you because your lawn is too
                                          long and you don't pay that fine
                                          (or you dispute it) then after 12
                                          months they can foreclose on you.
                                          A new law made it such that they
                                          can only foreclose if the amount
                                          owed is > $1800, but before that
                                          it could be any amount and $1800
                                          isn't all that much to lose
                                          one's house over. People have
                                          lost their houses over $120 fines,
                                          which spawned the legislation. I
                                          don't think most HOA members
                                          realize what deep sh*t they are in.
                                          \_ Uh, cut your lawn.  In my case,
                                             my $80 covers that so if my lawn
                                             isn't cut I am the one with the
                                             complaint, not them.  The sky is
                                             falling!!!!  People have been
                                             hit by meteors but no one with a
                                             tinfoil hat has ever been hit by
                                             one.  Fact.
                                             \_ Go fuck yourself.  I'll bet
                                                anything you also supported
                                                Bush's suspension of habeus
                                                corpus, as well as torture.
                                                Why? Because people like
                                                you hate freedom.  You want to
                                                live as a corporate serf with
                                                fucks like you for neigbors?
                                                Fine.  But if I catch you
                                                and your fascist budies
                                                trespassing on my swamp, I'll
                                                shoot you right
                                                between the eyes.
                                             \_ I see. So it's perfectly
                                                okay that if you are on
                                                vacation in Europe for
                                                a month and your lawn
                                                gets long that the HOA
                                                can foreclose on your
                                                house? You don't see a
                                                problem with that? Did you
                                                ever read your CC&Rs?
2006/10/24-26 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:44947 Activity:moderate
10/24   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_multiprocessing
        "With the exception of a few rare 80486 systems, the x86 SMP market
        began with the Intel Pentium processor supporting up to two processors
        ....."
        Wasn't soda an 8-CPU 386SX machine more than a decade ago?
        \_ I think at peak it had 20 processors, and yes, they were 386.  -tom
        \_ Yes, that would be the Sequent era (1992-1997). Soda Mark 2 had
           8 386s, Soda Mark 3 had 16 386s and Soda Mark 4 had 20 386s.
           http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/computing/hardware/soda-mark-ii.html
           http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/computing/hardware/soda-mark-iii.html
           http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/computing/hardware/soda-mark-iv.html

           "[W]e must mustn't forget the days when the dry and cracked skin
            that we just shed were vigorous and bright with new colors. The
            next chance you have, hold a glass high to the past and drink to
            Soda MkIV, the last of the great Sequents."
           \_ I'm obviously too young.  22 386s in one machine?  In 1995?
              Huh?  I guess it was really good a multi-tasking.
              \_ Remember that it was *free* in 1995.  The machine was
                 built the late 80s, when the 386 was top-of-the-line.
              \_ and yes, those sequent systems were awesome at multitasking.
                 Unfortunately the slow-ass cpu's were very slow at single
                 tasks. However, it was ideal for its use as a multi-user,
                 multi-purpose system.
                 \_ Did the fastest Pentium-something CPU in 1995 perform
                    twenty times as fast as a 386DX 20MHz (in terms of mips, I
                    guess)?  I don't remember which Pentium was top-of-the-line
                    back then.
                    \_ iirc, 1995 the fastest Pentium was 133 MHz. This was
                       about as fast as a 486 running at 266 MHz or a 386
                       running at 533 MHz (ie nearly 25x faster than a 386
                       running at 20MHz).
        \_ I google'd for "8088 SMP", and I found "The SNC is an Intel 8088
           based SMP system ..." in a non-free article.  Can 8088 really
           support SMP???
           \_ Why not?  SMP is an old old old concept in CS.
              \_ I was just puzzled because Intel advertised one of the recent
                 Pentium-whatever chip as the first x86 chip to support SMP.
2006/10/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44948 Activity:high
10/24   War Crimes committed upon illegally held detainees.
        http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1024b1talker1024.html
        \_ The real title is "Arpaio starts 2-week mandatory English
           classes for inmates".  Inmates of a county jail, that is.
2006/10/24 [Uncategorized] UID:44949 Activity:nil
10/24   Stupid caption deleted.
2006/10/24-26 [Health/Disease/General] UID:44950 Activity:nil
10/24   Thanks illegal immigrants!  I was missing Tuberculosis.  Especially the
        drug-resistant strains.
        http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52555
        \- "The states with the highest numbers of multi-drug
           resistant cases in the last decade were New York,
           California,  Texas and Florida, according to the
           CDC -- states with the highest populations of new
           immigrants." ... gee, by coincidence, those 4 stats
           immigrants." ... gee, by coincidence, those 4 states
           also have the most Americans! ... http://csua.org/u/hak
           \_ Nevertheless, it is a fact that illegals bring
              this disease into the country.
              \- What about American fastfood causingg obesity-related
                 problems in China, France etc?. What about Coca Cola
                 casuingMr Tooth Decay to arrive?
                 \_ What about them?  Those are lifestyle diseases,
                    not contageous killers of millions who never made
                    the choice to eat crappy food.
                 \_ Yeah and so?  You can't tell the difference between
                    someone choosing to drink Tooth Rot(c) and someone
                    getting resistent staph by walking into a hospital for
                    something else?
2006/10/24-26 [Uncategorized] UID:44951 Activity:nil
10/24   I am a stupid troll.
        http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1024b1talker1024.html
        \_ The real title is "Arpaio starts 2-week mandatory English
           classes for inmates".  Inmates of a county jail, that is.
2006/10/24-26 [Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:44952 Activity:high
10/24   Is this the end of antibiotics?
        http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/the-scourge-of-skid-row/14810
        (Warning, some of the pictures are really nasty.)
        \_ In short, yes.  And this plague of staph is starting exactly
           like AIDS.  First, it gets the drug-users and other societal
           rejects.  Then, it comes for everyone else.  When it's an
           expensive killer of "normal" people, it's seen as a crisis,
           and it is, rather than being nipped in the bud.  Like all our
           other infrastructure, public health is in a state of near-total
           neglect.  Drug-resistant staph, tuberculosis, malaria, and a
           host of others are coming at us, spread in part by insecticide
           resistant bugs.  Idiots in Washington spend trillions combating
           threats to thousands of us and ignore the threats which will
           kill millions of us.  Write your congressman, please.  --PeterM
           \_ How do you figure AIDS could have been "nipped in the bud" in
              this country?  I recall at the time some were advocating enforced
                \_ That was just Lyndon LaRouche
                   \_ No, it was a lot of people.  Either way, the question
                      remains: what would you have done at the time to "nip
                      AIDS in the bud"?
                      \_ Um, mounted effective research and prevention efforts
                         early on instead of not worrying about the "gay plague",
                         for starters?
                         early on instead of not worrying about the "gay
                         plague", for starters?
                         \_ So with billions of dollars of research and
                            education efforts since then, what has happened?
                            People who wanted to engage in risky activity
                            continued to do so despite knowing the dangers
                            and still get AIDS today.  There was no magic
                            bullet that would have done anything of note.
                            After 20+ years of public education there are
                            still new cases even though the number of new
                            cases *should* be near zero.  People are dumb.
                            \_ HIV isn't easy to transmit.  If we'd had
                               clean needle and condom campaigns early we could
                               have lowered transmissability to the point
                               where the infection might have died out in
                               the US, especially with very focussed targeting
                               on the initial high risk groups.  Further,
                               there WAS NO CURE at the time and a campaign
                               of persuasion, "do this or die" might have
                               been more effective.  To this day, dirty
                               needles are responsible for much spread of
                               HIV and hepatitis because politicians would
                               rather moralize than take effective action
                               (needle exchange) for public health.
                               Convinced now? --PeterM
                               \_ Convinced?  Of what?  No.  I'll repeat my
                                  main point: to this today everyone *should*
                                  be aware that certain activity will get you
                                  HIV/AIDS yet they still choose not to use
                                  condoms or use clean needles even in places
                                  where they are given free.  People are dumb.
                                  And btw, there is still no cure, so I'm not
                                  sure why you mention there wasn't one then
                                  either but thats not the point.
                                  \_ Convinced that early vigorous action
                                     could have greatly reduced the impact
                                     of HIV on the US.  HIV isn't very
                                     transmissible:  maybe 1.1 new cases
                                     per existing case, or even less thanks
                                     to public health campaigns.  Even if
                                     early vigorous action reduced transmission
                                     by 20%, there would be .9 new cases of
                                     HIV per existing case and the infection
                                     would die out.  I'm saying that if we'd
                                     had vigorous prevention and needle
                                     campaigns early on, HIV would have had
                                     negligible impact on the US and we would
                                     not have needed the *billions* now
                                     required for treatment and research.  --PM
                                     \_ So now that we have spent billions in
                                        research and the public is as educated
                                        as possible, is the rate .9 or 1.1?
                                        If you can show me something that says
                                        .9 then I'm fully convinced.  Of course
                                        there would still be people coming from
                                        outside the country but I'm not going
                                        to push that as I'm sure it's a small
                                        number.   Either way, people are still
                                        dumb.  ;-)
                                        \_ http://csua.org/u/hb7 (Entrez PubMed)
                                           This is an NIH site.  The number
                                           today isn't .9, it seems, but lower,
                                           .05/yr.  That is, for every existing
                                           case, there is 1 new case in 20 yrs.
                                           That is actually more successful than
                                           I had thought.  Just under 1M in USA
                                           have HIV.  Oh, and yes, people are
                                           dumb, I fully agree on *that*.  But
                                           remember, those *billions* spent have
                                           mostly been spent treating the sick,
                                           not on prevention/education.  Early
                                           prevention efforts would have yielded
                                           a huge ROI, especially since at that
                                           time AIDS victims were dying
                                           relatively fast.  --PeterM
                                           \_ Ok, I'll buy that.  Just one
                                              last thing to keep in mind is
                                              that by the time HIV/AIDS was
                                              recognised and diagnosable there
                                              were already a lot of people who
                                              already had it since it has such
                                              a long infection -> symptoms
                                              period.  It may be the case that
                                              after the initial death toll, the
                                              level of education was
                                              appropriate since new cases are
                                              determined based on test date,
                                              not the unknowable infection
                                              date.  So the high initial rates
                                              were unstoppable and then people
                                              who were uninfected then more or
                                              less did do the right things to
                                              stay safe(r).  It also may be the
                                              case that since H/A transmission
                                              is more likely with certain
                                              activity that the virus was
                                              already mostly isolated to those
                                              populations, thus without *any*
                                              education it might have had low
                                              rates after the initial deaths.
                                              No one can say with certainty
                                              how many more, if any, might have
                                              remained uninfected if there had
                                              been earlier education (IIRC it
                                              was about 2 years that it was
                                              believed to be a 'gay disease').
              isolation a la Typhoid Mary.  What do you figure 'they' should
              be doing about all these other diseases right now?
              \_ Spend money on better public health and research. This
                 isn't exactly rocket science. -ausman
                 \_ And how would that have done anything at the time when
                    AIDS first became known in the US to stop it from
                    spreading?  Billions of dollars of research have gone into
                    AIDS, medical science has advanced, and there was a lot of
                    money going into public education, but no one really knew
                    what AIDS was, some *still* dispute what it is and we
                    are still are the very early stages of being able to deal
                    with viruses of any sort.  What was going to happen in the
                    80's to stop AIDS?
                    \_ Politicians and public health officials ignored AIDS
                       because most initial victims were gays and drug users.
                       If it had been, say, children or middle-aged white males
                       there would have been a much more effective prevention
                       campaign.  Similarly with this new drug-resistant staph
                       in LA.  Right *now* it's afflicting homeless, prisoners,
                       and drug users.  Very soon, like AIDS, it's going to
                       be mainstream, and dealing with it is going to cost
                       a lot more in lives and in money.  Tuberculosis is back
                       in many countries with a drug-resistant vengeance.
                       Malaria's returning, too, also in drug-resistant glory.
                       Remember when life expectancy was 50 years or less?
                       Continued neglect of public health and medical research
                       will bring those days back.  --PeterM
        \_ On a related note, all those anti-bacterial soaps may not be
           so good for us after all:
           http://tinyurl.com/yxa9cw (motherearthliving.com)
2006/10/24-25 [Uncategorized] UID:44953 Activity:nil
10/24   I vunt tu du a veb pruject boot dun't knoo hoo tu du it. Dues unyune-a
        knoo hoo tu vreete-a a ploogeen fur Ixplurer oor Fureffux?
2006/10/24-26 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:44954 Activity:nil
10/24   I want to do a web project but don't know how to do it. Does anyone
        know how to write a plugin for Explorer or Firefox?
        \_ No, no one.
2006/10/24-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44955 Activity:nil
10/24   just want to say .. I started using google reader. and I found
        a decent motd rss feed ... its awesome. I'm back to motd
        reading after a few months of not -- been getting more into
        various blogs. maybe I'm just writing this to see my own
        name in the google reader. no but really, fyi, its cool.
        \_ Which motd feed are you using?
           \_ I'm hesitant to say ... is having a motd feed w/in
              the rules of the politburo? I dont want to get it
              shut down ... and I dont know if the creator wants
              the notoriety.
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:October:24 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>