8/27 The UN provided real-time information about IDF troop movements during
the Israeli-Hizbullah conflict:
http://csua.org/u/grz
\_ So they're comparing tanks rolling into a neighborhood vs. rockets
were fired from all over.. Large tank movements are:
a) not secret
b) much bigger news than individual of hundreds (thousands?) of
rockets fired in a day
\_ You didn't read the link. Try again.
\_ I did. Let's see:
"Yesterday and during last night, the IDF moved significant
reinforcements, including a number of tanks, armored personnel
carriers, bulldozers and infantry, to the area of Marun Al Ras
inside Lebanese territory. The IDF advanced from that area
north toward Bint Jubayl, and south towards Yarun."
vs. (note they didn't give _actual_ quotes, just "to the
effect of" ones for Hezbollah reports, but nonetheless:)
Hezbollah "fired rockets in large numbers from various
locations" What are they supposed to say for Hezbollah? They
aren't acting as a regular military.
\_ Maybe they shouldn't have been revealing IDF positions?
\_ Maybe IDF should have pressed the U.S. to force the
UN not to post the info, unless the IDF thought they
would steamroller Hezbollah in any case.
\_ Way to go. Nice way to blame the victim. While
we're on the topic, let's talk about UN neutrality,
like watching Hazbollah kidnap Israelis over the
border and stalling for nine months before turning
over a simple video tape of the incident. Obviously
it is the Israeli's fault for not asking the US to
pressure the UN to turn over the tapes. Israel later
traded hundreds of known killers for the 3 bodies.
\_ victim? hmm... let me see, over 1000 lebanonese
civilian dead, 10,000 wounded, one million out of
four million plus were displaced. Jesus, why
UN is not on Israeli's side? Why don't UN
set up some sort of final solution?
\_ Here's a good case of "context" being the
victim. Anyway, I was going to give a real
reply until you went all trollish looking for
a "final solution". You're not interested in
a real discussion.
\_ I think any notion of having a "real
discussion" is out of windows when you
decided that Lebanonese got what they
deserved.
\_ Sorry, you already tripped the troll
meter earlier. Maybe next time.
\_ No one said anything like that about
the Lebanese.
\_ How precisely can you tell which people were
"innocent" civilians and which were Hizbullah?
\_ How precisely can you tell which people were
"terrorist" Hizbullah and which were
civilians?
\_ The ones not wearing uniforms are
civilians.
\_ you do know hezbollah doesn't wear
uniforms?
\_ Yes but they wave goofy green flags,
don't shave, and carry AK-47s. And
they're usually yelling about
something or other. -John
\_ IDF was the victim of the UN?
\_ You read the link?
\_ Yes. IDF was the victim of the UN?
\_ It wasn't?
\_ Who cares. If I read this right, the entire Israeli
military strategy is doomed. Hezbollah has spent the last 6 years
building tank traps, kill zones, and entrenched bunkers in
civilian zones. There is no fucking way moving tanks in
there is going to help. Hezbollah has figured out how
to kill Israel's overblown invulnerable tank. Israel needs
\_ Um, yes, by using Syrian anti-tank
missiles.
\_ Russian/Iranian/cheap made-in-China
crap
\_ The Russian stuff certainly
isn't crap. The Iranian stuff
is a home-built version of the
Russian weapon. I don't know
what the Chinese are making but
I doubt it's crap either.
\_ They were 2-stage explosives to
defeat the reactive armor. They
weren't crap.
to figure out how to combat guerilla warfare or just flatten
the place and quit fooling with tanks.
\_ They know how to fight house to house, they've been doing it for
years. Fighting kills civilians. Or in this case "civilians".
"Killing civilians" is bad PR for a press that loathes the
Israelis and hates their own culture while praising a bunch of
"never left the 8th century" lunatics and painting them as
victims.
\_ You're talking about American and European press, not Israeli
press, right?
\_ Like any free society, there are some self haters in the
Israeli press too.
\_ Hezbollah fights in a very typical gurilla fashion. Gurilla
units can not operate without local population's support.
Prior to Israeli's massive, disportionate attack, the
local population was actually gotten sick and tire of
Hezbollah and call for disarm was in the air. It's kind of
ironic that Israels has rallied the population behind
Hezbollah. And for the first time, Saudi is considering
providing aids to this otherwise Shiite organization.
WAY TO GO!
\_ Oh really? That's why Hezbollah was getting elected to
office? How about a link backing your unfounded assertion
that there was a meaningful disarm-hezbollah movement in
Lebanon with the power to do it.
\_ there weren't "movement." but there were calls to
disarm Hezbollah within Lebanon, arguing that Hezbollah
has served its purpose and should be either disbanded
or absorbed into Lebanonese government.
\_ back pedal, no links, no references, no names, no
dates. thanks for participating today.
\_ How is Saudi going to give AIDS to Hezbollah, via sex or
a blood transfusion?
\_ Transfusion.
\_ Damn. I was hoping it would be through sex and
that we could all watch. I wonder who would be on
top.
\_ That would not be an acceptable method of aids
transmission as per the Koran. Your suggestion is
humiliating and in violation of Sharia. You shall
now be stoned to death.
\_ Not on that, your female family members shall now
be legally gang-raped by men including those
carrying AIDS.
\_ It's not ironic at all. If a "call for disarm" was actually
in the air, then that's _why_ Hezbollah attacked now.
\_ Except there wasn't a "call for disarm". Hezbollah was
caught off guard by the Israeli attack. They expected
the standard "swap dead Israelis for live Hezbollah
terrorists" deal they've got in the past.
\_ Hezbollah was caught off guard, but it end up winning
the war in the sense that it is politically stronger
after the attack and any voice to call for disband
or disarm within Lebanon is completely silenced.
\_ there were no voices of any note to disarm
hezbollah in Lebanon. they have been funded and
armed by Syria and Iran for years. their
overwhelming military resources make them immune
to any bogus 'calls to disarm' from anyone with
fewer soldiers or less will power. this entire
line about "hezbollah would've disarmed if only
those bad jews hadn't disproportionately defended
themselves" is a complete fabrication.
\_ my quick take. UNFIL is supposed to report on Israeli troop
movements out of Lebanon. That's what they were there for. Did
anyone ask them to stop? Also, first random publication I tried
on the UNFIL website:
"It was reported that Hezbollah fired mortar rounds from the
vicinity of three UNFIL positions in the area of Tibnin, Hariss, and
At Tiri."
\_ aka: Don't blow us up while shooting at those guys we were
supposed to make sure disarmed 6 years ago instead of using us
as willing human shields.
\_ maybe israelis should hang out near UNFIL since they seem to
have a bunch of hezbollah around. And this shows that doesn't
mesh with the claim that it was never more precise than
'Hezbollah's rockets "were fired in significantly larger
numbers from various locations" are as precise as its
coverage of the other side ever got.'
Also, UNFIL was never chartered to disarm Hezbollah.
\_ http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/mandate.html
How does point 3 and a well armed Hezbollah fit together?
Anyway, go read the background page at
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/background.html and
you'll see the same phrase over and over through out the
document stating that the UN has asked the Lebanese
government to take control in the south and they refused
to do so. What kind of real government refuses to take
control of their own country? What are governments for if
they're not in charge of the territory they're supposed to
be *governing*? The government was complicit in the build
up of Hezbollah, the UN watched it happen and did nothing,
the Israelis suffered. Here's a choice line: "On several
occasions, Hizbollah personnel restricted the freedom of
movement of UNIFIL and interfered with its redeployment."
Keep in mind this is a UN report about itself. This is as
sugar coated as it can get.
sugar coated as it can get. Oh here's another good one,
"The Secretary-General also remained concerned about the
restriction of movement on UNIFIL personnel, who must be
able to carry out their mandate. In the most serious
incident, on 4 April, about 15 Hezbollah personnel forced
an Observer Group Lebanon patrol south-west of Kafr Shuba
to stop at gunpoint and assaulted the observers with rifle
butts, injuring three, one seriously." So why did the UN
continue to allow this sort of thing and do nothing about
it? This is not only directly contrary to the UNIFIL
mandate in the region, it is a death sentence waiting to
happen. Did they think Hezbollah was going to peacefully
disarm at some point as these sorts of events escalated?
What did the UN do to Hezbollah to deserve this? As we
know, all victims of Middle Eastern thugs have done
something to earn their abuse and deaths.
\_ I still see nothing that authorizes UNFIL to do any
such disarmament. Yes, the UN has failed to provide
sufficient strength if they were going to undertake
such a mission. Yes, the UN has failed to provide
enough pressure on Lebanon. However, it is has not
been in the mandate to disarm Hezbollah. The
resolutions involved clearly state that this is the
Lebanese government's responsibility. The 2000 or so
troops authorized for this prior to this latest
flare-up was hardly sufficient to attempt to do so.
\_ You're nitpicking a diplomatic document. Mandate #3
is impossible without disarming Hezbollah. |
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