Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:July:20 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2006/7/20-23 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43737 Activity:nil
7/20    If you click on individual UIDs on the Berkeley Motd you
        may see somewhat relevant links below the line "You may also
        be interested in these entries." Below is an example:
2006/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43738 Activity:nil
7/19    Why is Bush groping the Chancellor of Germany? Did his wife
        stop putting out? Can't he find a chubby intern or something?
        \_ Because he is an idiot.
        \_ ob because Condi didn't seem to mind!
2006/7/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43739 Activity:nil
7/20    Military analysts question Israeli bombing
        "This is a classic strategic bombing campaign," said Stephen Biddle, a
        former head of military studies at the U.S. Army War College now at the
        Council on Foreign Relations. "What the Israelis are trying to do is
        pressure others into solving their problem for them, hence the
        targeting of civilian infrastructure."
        \_ Dunno if you're talking about the gaza strip or lebanon.
           In Lebanon, Hezbollah quite deliberately has all of their
           offices in the 1st floor of dense apartment buildings
           populated by civilians.  Whatcha gonna do?
           \_ Blow up the rocket installations and camps along the southern
              Lebanon border, establish a DMZ with a range approx. equal to
              the range of the rockets Hizbullah is chucking at your cities,
              and call it a day. I have no issue with punishing Hizbullah;
              I do have an issue when you start bombing civilians and calling
              them collateral damage.
              \_ So you think it's a good idea for Israel to grab an 80 mile
                 DMZ into Lebanon?  You're just trolling, right?  Please tell
                 us you're just trolling.  No one sane can want that no matter
                 what 'side' they take in this.
                 \_ I'm trolling. Well, what I'm trying to say is that, no,
                    it wouldn't be a good idea for Israel to make an 80 mile
                    DMZ in Lebanon, but if they did, it would at least be more
                    reasonable and vaguely justifiable than the continued
                    bombing of Beirut.
                 \_ That looks like what Israel is planning on doing right now.
2006/7/20-22 [Transportation/Car] UID:43740 Activity:low
7/20    What is the greater violent menace to the Israeli people?
        Here are the fatalities from Palestinian terrorism:
        And here are the fatalities _so_far_this_year_ from the terrorists
        of Detroit:
        In other words, cars kill more israelis in a typical year than terrists
        did in the *peak* of the intafada.
        \_ gee, and cars kill 10 times more Americans in a typical year than
           9/11 did.  How insightful.  -tom
        \_ but there are also car terrorist in israel in addition to
           hamas.. so there is double terrorism
        \_ And your point is?
           \_ My point is that the people who are frantically calling up
              friends in Israel to see if they're ok, and who are jumping up
              and down shouting about the End Times are completely out of
              touch with reality.  If one were in touch with reality, you'd
              be worried about anyone who goes to Israel being killed by
              a psycho driver on a shit road, and terrorism would not be
              taken anywhere near as seroiusly in comparison.  Especially since
              terrorism is basically random, whereas calling up your friends
              in Israel to remind them to wear seatbelts, drive less
              aggressively, and wear helmets on their bikes might actually
              save their life.  My other point is that cars are a major
              threat to world peace and that ending car culture is a national
              security issue.
              \_ Nice try, car culture guy, but you're still a silly idiot.
              \_ Whoa you were kinda making sense until the last bit.  -John
              \_ Clearely we need to revert to a simpler, more peaceful and
                 safer way of life.  Just like the Amish.
                 \_ or the Taliban
                   \_ I said Peaceful, the Taliban most decidedly were not
                      \_ you just don't understand their culture has different
                         priorities.  all cultures are equal.
                         \_ Some are just more equal than others.
              \_ Wow, and cars provide no benefit that might make the risk
                 worth it.
                 \_ Don't forget all the benefits we get from terrorism!
              \_ The terrorists win if we try to drive less and use more
                 public transportation.
                 \_ In some ways, that's almost true.  If everyone is
                    driving in seperate cars, it's very hard to kill a
                    large number of them.  Terrorists prefer to bomb
                    public transit.
                    \_ That's what they want you to think.
                    \_ Oh riiight!  As if they've bombed so many buses and
                       trains compared to individual autos.  Not a single
                       skateboarder has *ever* been killed by a suicide
                       bomber.  Think about it!
                       \_ Ride bike!  ^_^;;
                 \_ Really?  Price per barrel will drop and we'll be buying
                    fewer barrels.  So they'll be getting less money from us.
        \_ Even worse than car accidents and terrorism is the fatality rate
           of being born, at a staggering 100%.
2006/7/20-21 [Computer/Domains] UID:43741 Activity:nil
7/20    I assume other people have also been getting letters about their
        domain names from "Domain Registry of America" - I've seen lots of
        postings about the scams online.  Is it legal for companies to take
        the addresses associated with domain names and mail paper spam to
        them?  (I thought there were restrictions on this, in theory - since
        the address is completely public...)
        \_ I think (IANAL) it violates the TOS of most registrars.  So
           theoretically, they could deny the offender access, or even sue
           them, but I dunno whether there are any specific US laws
           banning this.  -John
        \_ "This is not a bill"....
2006/7/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43742 Activity:nil
7/20    Check out the May 2 warning about traveling to Lebanon:
        "U.S. citizens who travel to Lebanon despite this Travel Warning should
        exercise heightened caution when traveling in parts of the southern
        suburbs of Beirut, portions of the Bekaa Valley and South Lebanon, and
        the cities of Sidon and Tripoli. Hizballah has not been disarmed, it
        maintains a strong presence in many of these areas, and there is the
        potential for action by other extremist groups in Tripoli."
2006/7/20-21 [Recreation/Pets] UID:43743 Activity:nil
7/20    Infinite cat project:  -John
        \_ Would be appreciated if people could add more description to
           the link (like is it a humor site? is it a political statement
           site? is it a game site?) It'll help a lot of busy people
           here who don't have much time to check it out. Thanks!
2006/7/20-22 [Uncategorized] UID:43744 Activity:nil
7/20    Why is it that Dayquil works like a charm while Safeway's DayTime
        (which contains the same active ingredients) did not? Is there some
        magic mojo in the mixing process at Vick's that Safeway can't crack?
        \_ Must be the unlisted ingredient "Quil"
        \_ I swear some of those generic stuff is just a placebo. Friend
           a test of antiacids for ChemE and found the Rite-Aid pepto-fake
           was 100% ineffective.
2006/7/20-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43745 Activity:nil
        "In 2002, illegal immigrants living in the US used $2,700 worth of
        government services per person more than they paid in taxes, according
        to the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that advocates
        curtailing immigration levels."
        \_ Wow. An anti-immigration lobbying group provided numbers claiming
           that illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy. Breaking
           fucking news.
           \_ Just looking at gov't services is myopic.  Illegal immigrants
              probably provide more than $2.7k worth of labor, reducing prices,
              and benefitting those who paid taxes.
              \_ Do they provide the more than $2.7k worth of labor for free?
                 No, they get paid.
                 \_ Sorry, I meant 'labor below market rates'.
                    \_ Which drags down pay scales for citizens, which further
                       erodes what citizens pay in taxes, increases the amount
                       of government services citizens require, etc, all so
                       some people can get a head of lettuce for 10 cents less.
                       Although if you own a mega agribusiness you're scoring
                       big time off this scam, more power to you.  Everyone
                       else is getting hurt, at least indirectly.
                       \_ unless you consume produce
                          \_ Depends on what % of your budget you spend
                             on produce.
                        \_ This is *still* a myopic view on your part.
                           The rest of the population benefits from the
                           reduced prices on everything that immigrant
                           labor goes into.  Can you quantify it and
                           balance it against the costs you correctly
                           mention?  You're giving only one side of the
                           story.  Yes, the gov't gets less taxes, but
                           is "taxes paid to gov't" the sole benchmark of
                           a successful economy?  Anyway, without said
                           quantification your assertions are just
                                               ^[i.e., illegals are bad]
                           assertions.  I'll find you credible when
                           you have numbers.  And if you *do* back your
                           assertions with a non-myopic balanced
                           analysis of real costs and benefits, and
                           immigration is a downside, you'll have my
                           vote.  Seriously, I admit you might be right,
                           it's just I don't think you've made your case.
                           \_ So your line is basically, "I like cheap stuff
                              so it is up to you to justify enforcing
                              immigration law".  The burden of proof is on
                              those who flagrantly violate the law or advocate
                              such violation that the illegal population is
                              an over all plus for the country.  You not only
                              have to demonstrate that illegals are good for
                              the country economically but that the benefit
                              far outweighs the all the other negatives.  You
                              have an additional burden:  illegal workers who
                              are mostly in farming and construction are
                              getting lower pay than citizens *because* they
                              are illegal and thus are being abused.  How can
                              you ethically and morally justify paying
                              unjustifiably low wages for such hard work when
                              the basis of that low wage is the illegal status
                              of the worker which puts them at the tender
                              mercy of their employers?  If you own stock in
                              any of the mega agribusinesses, more power to
                              you for the money you make on others this way.
                              \_ Actually, the burden of proof is on
                                 bigoted isolationists who defend current
                                 barriers to legal immigration.  Why not
                                 make those workers legal and have them
                                 pay taxes?  And incidentally, the entire
                                 argument is a red herring, since poor
                                 people as a group will always pay less in
                                 taxes than they take in in services.  -tom
                              \_ No, I'm not making the claim that immigrants
                                 are good.  Did you not get the part where
                                 I said I'd listen to you if you were
                                 convincing?  I'm merely pointing out
                                 that immigrants COULD be good, that your
                                 argument that they are bad ignores or
                                 doesn't weigh possible benefits of
                                 illegal immigration compared to the costs.
                                 I'm not standing up for immigrants:
                                 I'm listening to you and finding you
                                 unconvincing because you don't really
                                 address counterarguments.  Get it?
                                 Similarly, I'd jump on a pro-immigrant
                                 guy who didn't bother mentioning
                                 consumption of public resources.  Right now,
                                 I am neutral:  I simply don't know.
                                 All I am saying is that you are not
                                 convincing.  You've said nothing
                                 that makes me feel compelled to get
                                 off the fence on your side.
                                 \_ Let's not confuse immigrants who got in
                                    line and followed the law and came here
                                    legally with illegal immigrants who did
                                    not.  I'm quite pro-immigrant.  Going on
                                    from there: the basis of my argument is
                                    that it doesn't matter if they are good
                                    for the country economically (which many
                                    studies dispute and a visit to your local
                                    emergency ward would empirically confirm)
                                    but the greater issue I raised of 'they
                                    are here *illegally*'.  If you want free
                                    and open immigration, that's fine, let's
                                    make that the official on-the-books law
                                    instead of this nonsense where we have
                                    laws we flat out ignore and intentionally
                                    fail to enforce as a matter of official
                                    policy.  Then at least everyone would be
                                    legal and the entire issue would settle
                                    itself in a libertarian style truly-free
                                    economic free-for-all.  I think that would
                                    be a horror but at least the artificially
                                    low wages and employer control over their
                                    helpless workers would end.  If you're not
                                    up for libertarian style border enforcement
                                    then what is wrong with actually enforcing
                                    our laws?  I'm unwilling (for example) to
                                    see hospitals going out of business,
                                    reducing service quality while passing
                                    increased costs on to evreyone to provide
                                    basic medical care out of emergency rooms
                                    because the agribusinesses have uninsurable
                                    off-books workers.  Or schools getting
                                    crushed with an overload of students.  Or
                                    increased crime from multi-national gangs.
                                    Or continuing to let giant agribusinesses
                                    get away with maintaining an underclass of
                                    people to boost their bottom line.  And no,
                                    I don't seriously believe produce prices
                                    are lower because of it unless you can
                                    convince me these companies are run by
                                    philanthropists who are trying oh so hard
                                    to give us the best products at the lowest
                                    prices (cough, wheeze, gasp).  The only
                                    people benefitting from this are the rich,
                                    the Mexican government, and the very rich.
                                    \_ Um, the original argument started with
                                       illegal immigrants costing $2700 in
                                       gov't services.  There was no balanced
                                       view of the economic benefit of their
                                       labor, so the $2700 number is a number
                                       that is useless.  And if the economic
                                       benefit really is just to the rich,
                                       then you're right, that benefit should
                                       be discounted.
                                       \- I dont like saying complex public
                                          issues are "simple" but it seems
                                          to me not having serious sanctions
                                          against employers of illegal aliens
                                          [as well as the will and resources
                                          to enforce them] make this largely
                                          shadow boxing ... just like anti-
                                          aff action people who are ok with
                                          major departures from "metritorcratic
                                          admissions" such as legacies are
                                          totally disingenuous ... i'm not
                                          saying college admissions can be
                                          done like the medical residency
                                          match, but it could be a lot cleaner,
                                          if there was a serious desire to be
                                          so [i.e. it was goal directed rather
                                          than politics directed]. this idea
                                          of creating a second class labor
                                          pool shows it is business interests
                                          driving the elite side of the
                                          republican view [BUSHCO] regardless
                                          of the rest of the rhetoric. the
                                          sttements that these insidious
                                          illegal are too clever for tyson
                                          foods are ridiculous ... if anything
                                          those are the easiest employers to
                                          go after. the harder ones to do
                                          go after. the harder ones to go
                                          after are probaby the illegal baby-
                                          care workers of yuppie couples,
                                          and say irish programmers over
                                          staying their visas ... arguably not
                                          a security or economic problem for
                                          the US, but whether this is a prob
                                          depends on your view of equity and
2006/7/20 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:43746 Activity:nil
7/20    Does anyone know a good, thread-safe, C++ streambuf?  We currently
        have a non-thread-safe streambuf doing our logging, which is bad.
        I don't really want to have to write my own streambuf, or change
        all the code to use a whole new library, I'd like to just plug in
        a safe streambuf.  (Although, a whole new library is better than
        writing my own.)
2006/7/20-22 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:43747 Activity:low
7/20    How can I get IMAP over SSL to work (I'm using
        I've set the port to 465, checked SSL, set auth to Password,
        and entered my username and password. I don't get an error but my
        messages don't get delivered. TIA.
        \_ derrr, corrected, I meant SMTP (outbound).
        \_ 993/tcp  open  imaps
           Try 993? 465 doesn't appear open on soda. --michener
           \_ 465 is SMTP over SSL outbound.  Soda does not do SMTP/SSL
              but rather has TSL on (uses port 25.)  OP, are you talking
              about _getting_ or _sending_ your mail?  In, for
              soda's TLS, you need to use port 25 and SSL for 'server
              settings' under outgoing mail servers (under the 'account
              information' tab.)  For Getting mail via IMAPS, under
              'advanced', use port 993 and SSL and most likely
              password auth.  -John
              \- I have as the outgoing server, port 25
                 SSL checked, and "Password" authentication. What is TSL/TLS?
                 Still won't connect.
                 \_ TSL was a typo, like the kind you never make.  TLS =
                    transport layer security, based on SSL 3.0.  The
                    difference is that SMTP/SSL is a dedicated, fully
                    encrypted connection, while SMTP/TLS runs over the
                    SMTP port and wants a 'STARTTLS' command.  I don't know
                    what the problem with scotch/soda is; maybe it has
                    something to do with not accepting esmtp.  Telnet
           25 and do an ehlo and see what happens.  -John
                    \- if the typo comment was directed at me, that's not me.
                       \- My apologies, I thought only psb did \-  -John
                          \- somewhat ironic in a thread about authentication.
                             --yes, it is me
              \_ When I try using TLS on port 25, I keep getting errors
                 about relaying being denied, but I am supplying the
                 same login information as for IMAPS, which works fine.
2006/7/20-22 [Finance/Investment] UID:43748 Activity:nil
7/20    My old 401k from my old employer offers about 12 plans whereas my
        403b (I work in the government now) offers maybe 40 plans. I like
        my 403b plans a lot better and think maybe I will rollover. Is this
        a good/bad idea? Is it typical for 403b to offer more choices
        than 401k? Any advice would be appreciated, thanks!
        \_ How much do you trust the Government and the Banks to provide for
           your retirement?  As a government employee, I have decided my
           level of trust: I do not buy into any official plan, save 2/3 of
           my after tax income to cash, and spend it on supplies for the
           comming apocalypse.  Maybe you should take a look at who's calling
           the shots with the U.S.'s money and consider doing the same.
        \_ I'm not sure about that, but I do know that 403b plans are not
           allowed to match employee contributions the way most 401k plans
           do.  This sucks.  That said, my 403b plan offers 100s of
           investment plan options, although it used to only offer 10 or
           \_ matching vs. not really doesn't matter now that OP has a 403b
              job as far as rolling in is concerned.  to the OP: taxes are
              hard.  get a professional.  it'll cost you $200 at most and may
              save you many tens of thousands.
              \_ wow, so if we say some engineer is making $100K/year, that
                 $200 service may save at least $20K for that year?
                 or are you talking about dual-engineer-income?
                 \_ Not pp, but making a mistake on rolling over a
                    retirement can cost you a LOT of money on penalties.
                    Since op is asking for financial advice on motd,
                    there's a good chance op doesn't know about all the
                    possible pitfalls.
        \_ Why would you rollover into the 403b? Roll over into an IRA
           and then you'll have even *more* choices.
           \_ 2nd that suggestion
2006/7/20 [Uncategorized] UID:43749 Activity:nil 75%like:43751
7/20    Anyone know a good, free, Linux, C++ logging library?
2006/7/20-22 [Recreation/House, Reference/Law] UID:43750 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
7/20    Annoyed at ADVO's junk mail in your mail box? Now you can request
        to be taken off online!
2006/7/20-22 [Uncategorized] UID:43751 Activity:nil 75%like:43749
7/20    Anyone know a good, free, thread-safe, Linux, C++ logging library?
        \_ Anyone tried log4cpp?
2019/01/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:July:20 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>