Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:July:17 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2006/7/17-19 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:43684 Activity:nil
7/17    Dutch to allow pedophile political party
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5187010.stm
        \_ Hmm, what's The Netherland's immigration policy for Americans?
           \_ ew.
        \_ So what?  Democracy isn't something you should be afraid of.
           \_ Having a pedophile party isn't democracy.  It is the
              institutionalizing of criminally aberrant behavior.
              \_ Only if anyone votes for them...  As soon as you say "some laws
                 shouldn't be democratically decided, ever" then you have to
                 have someone who _doesn't_ represent the people create them,
                 and that's trouble.  Of course pedophilia is abhorrent, this
                 isn't institutionalizing anything.  The US has a pot party,
                 that hasn't made pot legal.
                 \_ The US has a pot party.  The US also is leaning towards
                    making pot legal and has done so locally in many places.
                    Without a group pushing for the decriminalisation of
                    criminal acts, they will remain criminal.  With a group
                    pushing for legalising the acts, they will eventually
                    shift policy in that direction through back room bargaining
                    and vote swapping.  The only hope is that they never manage
                    to elect anyone.  Although if they do that alone says
                    the host country that they may be beyond hope anyway.
                 \_ Can the same argument be applied to communism?  A communist
                    party is illegal in the US.
                    \_ *sigh* http://www.cpusa.org
                       \_ Thanks!  (Not that I like communism.)  -- PP
                       \_ http://www.cpusa.org/article/static/511/#question18
                          "Aren't socialist countries anti-religion?"
                          "In China, ..., there are many religious
                          institutions, many millions who worship freely, many
                          churches that are growing. ..."
                          That says it all.  (But it's off topic.)
                    \_ Really?  I thought there was one.  Well, if that's true,
                       it probably happened during the 50's, the same time we
                       put God into the pledge, and did any number of other
                       stupid reactionary things.
                    \_ Uhh, no it isn't.
                    \_ IIRC, the United States is now one of the few countries
                       that still has a communist party.  We might be the only
                       multi-party country that has one.  I vaguely recall
                       something about all of them renaming themselves the
                       socialist party after the USSR fell but I'm too lazy
                       and apathetic to look it up.
                       \_ Japan still has a communist party. One of the Diet
                          reps from Kochi (the prefecture where I lived) was
                          Communist. --erikred
                       \_ PCI in Italy? Partito Comunista Italiano. Still
                          pretty big there.
                          \_ Ok so 3 of em.  I'm ok with that.
                             \_ Plus all the actual, well, communist countries,
                                plus France, England, Germany, India, and
                                pretty much every other countri I can
                                pretty much every other country I can
                                think of.  -John
                                \_ The communist countries aren't multi-party.
                                   I don't count Cuba, China, etc, which claim
                                   to be communist but are just dictatorships.
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43685 Activity:nil
7/17    I heard a good summary of the Middle East problem over the weekend:
        If the Arabs didn't have guns, there wouldn't be a war.
        If the Israelis didn't have guns, there wouldn't be an Israel.
        \_ True.  But if the Arabs didn't have guns and the Israelis did, there
           would be a very big Israel.
           \_ I don't think so. Israel doesn't really have any imperialistic
              goals. Israelis are happy with the historic boundaries of
              their country. They only occupy more because they have to.
              \_ that is one of the funniest thing I've ever heard for a long
                 long time.  First of all, Israli justify their existence
                 based upon God's promise.  And if you impose what God have
                 promised versus what Israel occupies today, you might agree
                 with me that current "Israel" is about 1/4 of what God
                 promised them.
                 \_ Let's talk about Taiwan, shall we?  Or Tibet?
                 \_ Funny, most Israelis I know think the whole "greater
                    Israel" thing is a crock and "justify their existence" on
                    not wanting to live somewhere where their families are
                    wiped out, either then or now.  I also don't see many
                    Israelis (beyond the crackpots) calling for the
                    annihilation of their neighboring states for no reason,
                    but then again I guess that doesn't matter to you.  -John
                 \_ Really?  There's a map somewhere?  Does God provide GPS
                    coordinates defining the boundaries?
                    \_ He speaks directly to Pat Robertson.  Sharon got the
                       coordinates wrong, so God laid the smackdown on him.
                    \_ Yes, of course God provides the God Positioning System
                       to the Chosen People.
              \_ What are the historic boundaries of Isreal again? Show me
              \_ What are the historic boundaries of Israel again? Show me
                 a map please. And when in history do you want to go? 1950?
                 1800? 1000? 1000BC? It has hardly been static.
                 \_ historical border is irrelevant. What is relevant is
                    the current border, which is as good as how much your
                    country can afford.
                 \_ Here's a better question:
                    What are the boundaries of Israel that the Arabs
                    would tolerate?
                    \_ If you mean the current residents of Gaza, the West
                       Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and several others: none.
                       There is no amount of land that is ok for Israel to
                       have.  "Push them into the sea" isn't hyperbole.
                       \_ No, most Palestinians have signed off on the
                          47 borders of Israel. Or at least they did back
                          when Arafat was still alive. Maybe he wasn't the
                          Devil you made him out to be, eh?
                          \_ The 1947 borders?  You mean the ones that were
                             good only if the Arabs would agree to live
                             peacefully with Israel but are suicidal if there's
                             a constant state of war?  Oh yeah, those are great
                             borders... if you're looking to push Israel into
                             the sea.  Afarat was a killer and a thug and the
                             worst thing possible for his people.
                             \_ Really? Are the Palestinians now better off
                                without his leadership? Heck, for that matter,
                                is Israel?
                    \_ "The Arabs"? I dunno, didn't Egypt agree to the
                       67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M of them? I imagine
                       67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M Arabs? I imagine
                       it would be hard to get 200M people to agree on anything.
                       Okay, I just found the treaty between Israel and
                       Egypt on the web (isn't this informaion superhiway
                       thingy grand?). It only outlines the Isreal/Egypt
                       thingy grand?). It only outlines the Israel/Egypt
                       border, not the whole thing. I bet "The Arabs" would
                       live with Isreal in its 56 borders, though that is
                       live with Israel in its 56 borders, though that is
                       certainly open to debate. Those borders are what
                       Abbas and his crew have asked for.
                       Abbas and his crew have asked for. Also, what makes
                       your question "better" than mine? What is the
                       "historic" boundary of Isreal???
                       "historic" boundary of Israel???
                       \_ Israel occupies its current borders out of
                          necessity, not out of some imperialist desire.
                          As someone else said, they could occupy more
                          land if they wanted to. I do not think that the
                          Arabs (meaning the former Arab League,
                          especially Syria) tolerate the existence of Israel
                          at all. If Israel went back to the old borders
                          I predict that it would ultimately be attacked,
                          not that peace would then reign.
           \_ Israel has won how many wars against all of their state sized
              neighbors?  They could be much bigger if they wanted.
        \_ The guy who wrote this must be a Jew.
           \_ Wow, trolled lately?
2006/7/17-19 [Science/Disaster] UID:43686 Activity:nil
7/17    Another tsunami in Indonesia
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060717/ap_on_re_as/indonesia_earthquake
2006/7/17-19 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:43687 Activity:nil
7/17    Subcommittee to Hold Global Warming Hearing
        More on the Mann Hockeystick Fraud
        http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/News/07142006_1989.htm
        \_ The statistical argument is totally a red herring.  That global
           warming is occurring is completely obvious and is not disputed
           by anyone credible.  That there is a human contribution to
           global warming is similarly not under serious dispute.  Tools like
           Wegman exist only to give the administration an excuse to avoid
           doing anything about it.  -tom
        \_ This doesn't say it's a fraud. It just raises a couple of points
           that don't even seem significant. Do you understand the significance
           of their points? I think you are full of shit and your use of the
           term "fraud" pretty much shows you to be a fool. Most of the points
           are essentially statiticians whining about not being important
           enough (in a paper written by statisticians).
        \_ posted by jblack
        \_ Yet another effort to deny global warming.
           \_ What is wrong with challenging dogma?  There are lots of reasons
              to believe the earth is warming up but the Mann Hockeystick is
              not one of them.
              \_ UrlP
                 \_ http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/News/07142006_1989.htm
                    If you bothered reading the link instead of robotically
                    saying, "UrlP" everytime a statement is made that doesn't
                    match your _political_ views maybe, oh fuck it, nevermind.
                    What I find interesting about the global warming non-debate
                    is how many pro-GW scientists have zero background in
                    climatology and how so few of those who study the greatest
                    source of the planet's heat agree with or in many cases are
                    actively speaking out against GW, but I'm sure the folks
                    studying the sun are all just whack jobs.
                    \_ http://www.csua.org/u/gg3 (realclimate.org)
                       Or by all means rant and swear some more.
                       \_ So your link says what I said.  Mann is garbage yet
                          we still have Gore making movies for public
                          propaganda purposes including it and yet where is
                          the scientific community (or the press) coming out
                          to say "no, no, no it isn't like that!"?  It makes
                          for a very visually scary picture but isn't
                          statistically reliable yet based on that numerous
                          people on the street and in government see it and
                          want to make dramatic policy shifts based on it.
                          Madness.  Thanks for the link backing what I said.
                          \_ Neither your link nor mine backs what you said.
                             You are frothing.
                             \_ I read both.  They do.  Whatever.  And really,
                                just because someone says you're wrong does
                                not mean they are frothing, ranting, or
                                any other personal attack you'd like to spam.
                                Gosh, maybe they just disagree with you?  What
                                is the point of putting in personal attack
                                anyway?  It doesn't make you look smarter.
                                \_ Your frothiness has nothing to do with
                                   whether pp was incorrect; you're still
                                   frothing. Take a deep breath and point to
                                   points.
                                   \_ Anytime you'd like to make a point and
                                      stop making empty personal attack I'll
                                      be there to chat with you.  Like I said,
                                      "whatever".  If that's frothy, you must
                                      be really 'sensitive'.  That's not my
                                      problem.  The link quite clearly states
                                      that Mann is nonsense and they'd like to
                                      put the hockey stick behind them because
                                      the failure of the science behind the
                                      hockey stick chart is distracting from
                                      their real message.  These guys are
                                      looking to move forward while some people
                                      here are stuck on defending a broken
                                      chart.  My point is right there in the
                                      link.  Your point is... not here.  If
                                      you'd like to make one, I'll be around.
                       \_ Have you actually *looked* at realclimate? They
                          are pretty firmly in the "global warming is real"
                          camp.
                          \_ Yep, I read it all the time.  Have you read it?
                             Have you read the link I posted?
                             \_ I know you are, but what am I?
                                \_ I'm sticks and you're stones and ... oh
                                   wait, that's not right.  Hmmmm....
2006/7/17-19 [Recreation/Activities] UID:43688 Activity:nil
7/17    Boulder Bridge Troll arrested after attacking deputy with golf club:
        http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9511801/detail.html  -John
        \_ I support use of nuclear weapons against the P.R. Boulder.
2006/7/17-19 [Uncategorized] UID:43689 Activity:nil
7/17    What type of ants have wings?  I saw some ants with wings in my
        house yesterday.  I've only seen ants with no wings before yesterday.
        \_ queens
           \_ and drones
        \_ termites (see http://csua.org/u/gg1 )
        \_ They're either winged ants (breeders), termites (also breeders)
           or some kind of wasp.  Nearly all ants have winged breeders.
           Are you sure these were ants?  Were they mixed in peacefully
           with a bunch of ants?
           \_ No.  The ones I saw are all by themselves individually, not near
              where I found lines of ants elsewhere in the house.
2006/7/17-19 [Computer/Networking] UID:43690 Activity:nil
7/17    Anyone have a clue how to put a form field that allows only
        dotted quad IP address entry in a pdf?  -John
        \_ I don't know anything about pdf creation, but this may help:
           http://www.planetpdf.com/forumarchive/88960.asp  -niloc
           \_ Kewl, thanks much, helped.  -John
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:43691 Activity:nil
7/16    How hard is it to become a notary? What kind of certifications
        do you need? I'm thinking about doing it to make a few bucks
        a week. I'm tired of eating cup-o-noodle.       -poor student
        \_ There is a one-day course you can take. The costs have to do with
           the course and the materials you're required to buy (also, getting
           bonded, etc.). You may make this up depending on how hard you
           promote yourself.
        \_ Notaries may only charge a set fee ($15) for most notarizations-
           however you may charge travelling fees!   -ca notary
           \_ That's hilarious--in Germany, only something like the top 5 or
              10% of each graduating law school class have the right to go
              for a notary slot, and almost every piece of official paper
              (like home sales contracts for example) has to be notarized,
              which sometimes costs as much as a percentage of the contract
              sum ==> license to print money.  -John
               \_ Home sales in Amerika also need to be notarized. Heil.
              \_ So why is this hilarious? Why do you hate the free-market
                 notary model in America?
              \_ That's remarkably 'efficient'.  Why do they put up with that?
              \_ What can you say.  One isn't even legally require to have any
                 form of picture ID to be a citizen in this country.
                 \_ When I was working on a financial services startup in
                    Munich, we were required to get a banking license if
                    we intended to clear payments above ca. $5 million.  That
                    needed 39 separate official application and permit
                    processes.  I think "what can you say" about covers it
                    pretty well.  -John
                    \_ 39?  Uuuh.  39?  ....  what?  39?
                \_ Wow, you guys should have posted this stuff on the 4th
                   I'm starting to hear various patriotic country songs
                   running through my head.  Of course, maybe I should be
                   expecting more than "not as lame as Europe".  Especially
                   with "not even legally require"d boy up there reminding
                   me that it won't be long till that isn't true.
                   \_ What would be wrong with proving with easily obtainable
                      photo id that you are who you say you are when you vote?
                      \_ I heard from the news that there were some stupid
                         constitutional right issues.  I forgot.
                         \_ Such as?
                            \_ I don't remember.  Maybe something like the
                               right to express yourself anonymously or some
                               shit like that.
                   \_ Who put a bug up your ass?  I was pointing out a silly
                      aspect of an overly bureaucratized country.  Ask any
                      even semi-literate German if he thinks his country has
                      not too many, but way-crazy-stupid-too-many regulations
                      that stand in the way of pretty much anything getting
                      done, then report back with his response.  -John
        \_ also... bear in mind that a "notary" here is much less than in
           other countries.  In the training they warn you to clear up
           misunderstandings with immigrants, who may expect a notary to have
           the powers of a lawyer.  In practice I haven't used my commission
           much, but it's come in handy for friend's papers etc.  Possible
           pitfall: when you are a notary, you cannot turn someone away for
           lack of funds.  So if you notarize something, and say "pay me",
           they could say "no." -ca notary
2006/7/17-19 [Recreation/Humor] UID:43692 Activity:nil
7/16    http://youtube.com/watch?v=A-u9B6nouBo&search=customer%20support
        Funny customer service call
        \_ Fuck you. It is funnier when a fucking whitie tries
           to speak another foreign language.
           \_ Riiight, and you say *westerners* are shallow and judgemental?!?
              I think you could give westerners a few lessons, buddy.
           \_ You're an idiot and a racist. Have a nice day!
        \_ I listened to this without watching it, and without the
           distraction of the visual cues it's not that hard to understand.
           It did take a little concentration.  -niloc
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43693 Activity:nil
7/17    Get Syria to get Hizbollah to stop doing this shit
        \_ don't worry, the tape has the full blessing of the White House
        \_ Ummm... which is worse, that the President used a naughty word
           in a private conversation, or that the press likes recording
           private conversations?
           \_ Bush = evil.  Anti-Bush = good.
              \_ Newspapers listening in on private conversations of
                 politicians == evil.
                 Bush listening in on private conversations of
                 citizens == good.
                 \_ 1) true. 2) when did that happen?
                    \_ http://www.csua.org/u/ggq
                       \_ Yeah horrible.  At the time everyone said we
                          shouldn't bomb, we should use intel.  So we use
                          intel and now that's wrong too.  Let's just
                          surrender now.  Which way is Mecca from here?
           \_ Neither. What's worse is that Bush and Blair appear to believe
              that all of this can be stopped if Syria tells Hezbola to knock
              it off; this betrays a very simplistic view of the situation.
              \_ I kind of believe you, but why can't Syria just tell
                 Hezbollah to stop?
                 \_ Syria funds Hezbollah, but they don't control them. Also,
                    while Hezbollah relied heavily on Syria for funding in the
                    past, it no longer does so; Iran contributes a lot, and
                    Hezbollah has its own economy running now. The best Syria
                    could do is put pressure on Hezbollah to stop the rockets
                    and turn over the hostages, but it's unlikely Hezbollah
                    would listen since an aggressive Israel makes Hezbollah
                    look as much like victims as Lebanon, especially to the
                    punters.
                    \_ Still too simplistic.  Iran funds them, but the goods
                       have to pass through Syria, so Syria has influence, even
                       if they're not funding them.
                       \_ Agreed, actually, still too simplistic. -pp
                       \_ things are not that hard, though.  If you are Syria,
                          why would it even want to put pressure on the only
                          Arab organization that even put up with a fight
                          with Israel?
                    \_ If they fund them, they control them.  Also, how do
                       you think all those Iranian missiles and techs got into
                       the country?  And while we're here, how do you think
                       a small arms terrorist .org managed to target a ship
                       miles out at sea?  They weren't fluke hits on the 2
                       ships.  And were you aware that not only Syria but
                       Lebanon is still in an official state of war with
                       Israel?  Jordan signed and Egypt signed a treaty and
                       both have non-hostile relations with Israel since.
                       What is wrong with Lebanon and Syria that they can't
                       do the same?
                       \_ Read above where Syria is no longer sole funder of
                          Hezbollah. Also, Lebanon does not have the military
                          might to stop Hezbollah; parts of Beirut are de facto
                          state of Hezbollah. As for treaties, well, stop the
                          bombing, and let's talk.
                          \_ If Syria stopped funding Hezbollah they'd either
                             collapse or be much less than they are.  If Syria
                             didn't arm them and allow the Iranians to arm
                             them they'd not have thousands of rockets and some
                             mid-ranged missiles.  If Syria didn't host the
                             Hezbollah leader, they'd be less belligerant.  If
                             Syria didn't keep Lebanon as a client state as a
                             proxy to attack Israel then maybe Lebanon might
                             have been a real country with a real government
                             and a military that could be held responsible for
                             Hezbollah (a terrorist organisation) having it's
                             own economy(!!!!!!!).  Israel has always been
                             ready to sign treaties with her neighbors.  To
                             say "stop the bombing and let's talk" is so off
                             base I'm thinking you're either trolling or really
                             don't either know or care what's going on in the
                             region for the last 50+ years.
                       \_ China ships food and fuel to N.Korea every week.
                          And guess what, China is not really controlling
                          N.Korea
                          \_ Guess what?  China has a ready grip on NK.  The
                             last time the NKs got testy, China had a week
                             delay in shipments and NK suddenly had a change
                             of heart & policy.  The 6 nation talks are not
                             about the 5 countries talking to NK.  They are
                             about the 4 countries talking to China which is
                             why the US won't talk directly to NK.  There's
                             no point.
                          \_ What do you think will happen when/if China
                             cuts them off? Why do you think China sends
                             these? It's all about control.
             \_ How about this. Syria should sign a peace agreement with Israel.
                Israel made that as the only condition for giving back to
                Golan Heights. Then, Hesbollah will have to stop blaming
                Israel for occupying supposedly Lebanese Sheba farms..
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43694 Activity:nil
7/17    My google fu is getting weak in my old age.  Someone tell me where
        I can hear GWB's comments on hesbolah that were caught on mic.
        \_ http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/17/bush.tape
        \_ Where he said "shit"?
        \_ I don't know. But what's the url of that one liberal bloggish
           site that is always posting video clips?
           \_ http://www.crooksandliars.com
              \_ yeah that was it, and sure enough they have videos of this
        \_ Front page of cnn
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43695 Activity:nil
7/17    If Chinese immigrants live everywhere in the world, why don't they
        live near the coastline? For example, Fremont is full of Chinese
        people and it's far away from the coast. Ditto with Monterey Park
        and Alhambra. Why don't they live near say, Noe Valley, Pacific
        Heights, Seacliff, and Marina? Why don't they live in West LA?
        All of these areas are along the coast, and are predominanatly white.
        Do Chinese people in general not like living near the ocean?
                                                -Chinese and curious
        \_ I'm sorry to say this bitterly but in reality, it's
           because the whities control the best real estates. For
           hundreds of years they suppressed the minorities and took up all
           because the whities control the best real estates. For hundreds of
           thousands of years they suppressed the minorities and took up all
           the good land and left the Indians, blacks, and latinos
           shitty land. Case in point, when the Japanese were too successful,
           the whities took away their properties and put them into
           internment camps. Do you remember the Euclid co-op on
           1777 Euclid? It used to be owned by Japanese students until
           the whities took it away from them. It's all about power and
           control, and the whities have both.
           \_ Perhaps the whities own all the good land because they have a
              solid work ethic and sharp minds with good educations -- whereas
              all the little non-whities like yourself are lazy, uneducated,
              greedy second-class citizens that can't even learn english.
              God rewards those who work for their rewards, and he punishes
              greedy, lazy, uneducated non-whities like yourself.  I may
              not be a minority, but at least I can speak english.
           \_ "The whities" do not control all the good land.  A very small
              power elite controls all the good land, as it does everywhere.
              In the U.S., that small power elite is mostly(but not entirely)
              white.  I'm reminded of the old joke about the jew in tsarist
              russia who says he always reads the anti-semitic newspaper because
              it's all good news: it says he controls the banks, the land,
              the government, etc. when in fact he's a poor peasant like
              everyone else.  All the good land everywhere is being bought up
              by rich speculators, squeezing out those of us who work for a
              living. The fact that most of the speculator class is white
              does not make this a race issue.
              \_ No, no -- the whities do because they're clearly superior
                 than their mentally disadvantaged little cousins.
        \_  it's because being near chinese grocery stores seems to be the
            being outdoors, so the higher cost of coastal living isn't
            justified, since chinese people like money.
                \_ Which race/ethnicity doesn't like money?
                   \_ Why is this even a race based question?  Can't there be
                      individuals of every background who have their own
                      personal belief systems?
                      \_ Exactly my point.  -- PP
        \_ They buy moderately priced real estate where there is an existing
           Chinese community they can buy Chinese groceries at?
        \_ The Richmond and Sunset Districts in SF have a lot of Chinese
           residents.  Both are coastline districts.
        \_ Is it a feng shui thing? I know that Chinese like San Marino
           because of wide, straight streets. Beach towns don't usually
           have that.
        \_ San Francisco?  Boston?  Hong Kong?
           \_ I thought it's because of their lack of driving ability
        \_ San Francisco?  Boston?
        \_ Everything is determined by price. If Chinese immigrants
           are rich, then they will buy up all the coast-line
           properties and China Town will not be where it is today.
           Most are not, so they settle for something in between. It's
           like asking, how come the black people lives in shit place
           like New Orleans?  How come they don't buy up the
           coast-line properties?
           \_ What's weird is that in the SF neighborhood where I grew up
              (Miraloma, attached houses, nothing special), several
              Chinese families bought houses, built huge in-laws and
              extra stories, and moved in.  Judging by their cars, most of
              them were loaded and could have afforded nice places in way
              more upscale parts of town.  I never figured that out.  -John
              \_ Don't judge wealth by cars.
        \_ "How come engineers/geeks don't like pretty girls? Why do
           they always go for the below average ones? Do geeks in
           general not like cute/sexy/pretty girls?"
2006/7/17-19 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:43696 Activity:nil
7/17    Wow.  Does this end the argument of "USA should adopt Kyoto"?
        http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2006/0703/112.html
        "China burned 1.9 billion metric tons of coal in 2004. By 2020,
        predicts the China Coal Industry Development Research Center, it will
        burn 2.9 billion tons a year. That increment alone will send as much
        carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as 3 billion Ford  Expeditions, each
        driven 15,000 miles a year. This puts into sobering perspective the
        meager efforts of the U.S. to stave off global warming by improving gas
        mileage."
        \_ The US still emits more greenhouse gases than anyone else, so
           reducing US greenhouse gas emissions is still the best bang for
           the buck.  Just because China is on track to surpass the USA (and
           there are also 100 coal fired power plants in the planning stages
           here maybe China won't surpass us after all) doesn't mean reducing
           US emissions won't have an effect.
           \_ My point is, cars in the US don't mean squat as far as emissions
              go, and since China isn't affected by Kyoto, it's a drop in the
              bucket. -op
              \_ 1. cars in the US contributes a great deal
                 2. the world is in a such mess today mostly due to industrial
                 nation's behavior in the past 150 years.  It is unfair for
                 US/UK to ask China to curb its CO2 emission while it was the
                 US/UK emission has gotten us this far at first place. Imagine
                 what the world would be like for China/India/Brazile emit
                 CO2 freely for next 100 years.
                 \_ Sorry -- I'm not following what you're trying to say
                    here.  We should give those nations a break, or are you
                    saying it's going to be horrible in the next 100 years if
                    we do?
                    \_ I am saying that it is unfair and unjust to blame
                       China/India/Brazil for CO2 emission when they haven't
                       done their share yet.   If G7 are truely interested
                       in environment, they should offer energy saving,
                       environmentally-friendly technology free of royalties
                       so China/India/Brazil can adopt these technology
                       without additional cost.  Otherwise,  those 3rd world
                       country has no interest nor incentive to hear this
                       global warming issue caused by G7's past and present
                       behavior.
                       \_ Haven't done their share?  If you believe the world
                          is going to fry, then everyone has to do their part
                          to keep that from happening, not shift the pollution
                          to somewhere else.  If you believe each country has
                          an inalienable right to pollute a certain amount
                          before cutting back then you don't believe in GW and
                          Kyoto is just a way to cripple the West for the
                          benefit of China/ India/Brazil.
                          \_
                 3. China is a vast, and POOR country.  Yet in many front
                 it has done a lot more to reduce carbon emission than USA.
                 It has gotten rid of motocycles in first-tier cities; it
                 has one of the most strigint emission *AND* milage regluation
                 on the planet (which US car companies are lobby hard against)
                 for consumer automobiles.
                 AND.  it put punitive taxes on things that deemed
                 environmentally unfriendly.  This includes cars that displays
                 environmentally unfriendly.  This includes cars that displace
                 more than 1.5 litre, disposalble chopstics, and golf
                 equipments.  USA, on the other hand, has stated repeately
                 that US life style is "non-negotiable" when it comes to
                 energy preservation.
                 \_ Golf car limitations are going to save the world?  You
                    can't believe that.
                 4.  In the end, it's about energy consumed per capita.
                 Chinese citizen's energy consumption per capital is something
                 like 14% of an average US citizen.  It is something that
                 Americans not willing to face.
                 \_ No, it isn't about energy/capita.  It matters a great deal
                    what that energy does and how efficient it is used.  If
                    the US had Chinese levels of efficiency the US economy
                    would collapse and the air and water would be toxic.
                    The technology now exists to produce reasonably clean
                    energy.  As China/etc have minimal infracstructure, saying
                    they should use technology of the last 100 years so they
                    can catch up in how much they have polluted makes no sense.
                    Cleaner technology didn't exist at the time the West was
                    building up and who do you think developed all that tech
                    in the first place?
                 \_ I think you're confusing 'crushing poverty' with 'energy
                    conscious policies'.  These aren't the same things.
                    conscious policies'.  These aren't the same thing.
                    \_ refer my point number 3 on policies. Point number 4
                       is pointing out the fact that USA is the biggest
                       CO2 emitter on the planet.  Drag China into
                       this Kyoto discussion is just an excuse for USA not
                       deal with the problem and blame China for it.
                       \_ China is on the same planet as the rest of us.  You
                          either believe in global warming, which makes it a
                          global problem and this China's responsibility as
                          well or you think China should ignore the world and
                          pollute like madmen and kill us all.
              \_ "About 2,300 pounds of carbon equivalent per person (16% of
                 our individual greenhouse gas emissions) are released to the
                 atmosphere through our use of *personal* transportation every
                 year."  http://www.csua.org/u/ggf (epa.gov)
                 "In 1997, transportation sources emitted approximately 31
                 percent of carbon dioxide from fossil fuel combustion (or
                 460.4 million metric tons of carbon) in the United States."
                 http://www.csua.org/u/ggg (epa.gov)
                 Either your drop is very big or your bucket is very small.
                 \_ And how much are we realistically talking about decreasing?
                    The above link says China will be increasing its CO2 output
                    by 1 Billion metric tons.  So more than twice all of the
                    output of all cars in the US.
                    \_ Yeah, we should get China to reduce too.  But that
                       doesn't mean we shouldn't do it ourselves.
        \_ China has four times the population as the US.
        \_ end the argument how?  in that china is exempt from Kyoto,
           and can pollute all they want, or that US should adopt teh protocol
           to make up for China's excesses?
           \_ Yes, because US has non-negociable policy, and polluted most in
              last 100 year.  China outlaw then disposable chopstic and 1.5
              litre golf equipments, do alot more reduce cabonr emission.
              \_ You must be trolling.  Chopstick and golf carts....
        \_ By 2006, not 2020, 25% of world's greenhouse gas annual emission
           comes from the US which has 5% of the world population.
           \_ And produces what % of the world's goods?
              \_ A rapidly dropping %, while China is rapidly rising.  What
                 do we make these days that China can't either produce at
                 half the cost or just copy?
                 \_ You didn't answer.  The answer is the US produces roughly
                    25% of the world's goods with 25% of the world's energy.
                    And to answer your question, there is no way in hell China
                    can produce the same goods with the same or less energy.
                    More cheaply in terms of dollars but not in terms of energy
                    or related pollution.  The disconnect between price and
                    energy/pollution is where you fall down.
                    \_ URL for "produces roughly 25% of the world's goods"
                       please?
                    \_ US emission per dollar of real GPD has been going up
                       and up.  http://www.csua.org/u/gge (epa.gov)
                 \_ Give yourself some credit, son.  Majority of stuff we made
                    for Israelli to defend itself can not be produced by
                    China.
                    \_ I thought there are arms trade between China and Isreal.
                       \_ yes.  but none of the good stuff end up in China's
                          hand... don't blame Israel for it.
              \_ And consume what % of the world's goods?
                 \_ Thus driving what % of the world's economy?
                    \_ Borrowing what % of the world's savings in order
                       to consume that % of the world's goods?
                    \_ US emissions per dollar of real GPD has been going up
                       and up.  http://www.csua.org/u/gge (EPA)
                    \_ US emission per dollar of real GPD has been going up
                       and up.  http://www.csua.org/u/gge (epa.gov)
        \_ "Alas, it doesn't do anything to improve the dismal chemistry of
           coal, which sends 2.2 tons of carbon dioxide into the air for every
           ton that is burned."  How's that work?  Is the rest of the weight
           from oxygen?
           \_ Yes.  One CO2 (12+16*2) weighs more than one C (12), and one H2O
              (1*2+16) weighs more than two H's (1*2).
2006/7/17-18 [Uncategorized/Profanity, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:43697 Activity:moderate
7/17    Pardon me, but what the fuck?  Is average CSUA member not command
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        English basics language no more?  I thought ESL was a fundamental
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        requirement for acceptance to Cal?  Free tip:  your point, whatever
        it is, will not be ridiculed or ignored as much if it's not
        written in orc.  -John
        \_ Wow, you're a judgemental Nazi. No wonder people hate you on motd.
           Fuck you Heil German John. I'm watching you. -German John Hater #3
        \_ Free tip: don't give advice when it is not asked for.
           Go fuck yourself.
           \_ Free tip #1: Stop plagiarizing from the USGA etiquette "do not
                give advice to others on the course unless they ask you for
                it" and "Never coach or give unsolicited advice.")
                http:/ http://www.waggle.com/etiquette.htm
                http://www.sideroad.com/Business_Etiquette/business-golf-etiquette.html
              Free tip #2: "Go fuck yourself" isn't one of the USGA's
                etiquettes.
              Free tip #3: Go fuck yourself.
        \_ This would've been a great troll except for the fact that you
           got back-trolled big time.
        \- you may want to re-evaluate your original intent vs. the
           actual result of what you're trying to say. this is from me
           as an observer's point of view:
           -what you wanted to convey: "i am a nice person and i want to help
            you poor immigrants. i think that if you guys want to communicate
            effectively you should take some time to learn english
            , otherwise you will be ignored."
           -what a few heard: "you are all guests on my
            land and if you want to live here you need to learn my
            language or else get the fuck out of here."
           -what pissed-off immigrants heard: "i am a white male and even
            though i speak poorer asian languages than you speak
            english, you still need to learn my language because i belong
            to the white race with bigger penises. we are righteous and
            you are not. you must respect our authority and learn english"
           -what the overall intent is: "John is a jerk"
           please re-evaluate your method of communication. your reply
           is not necessary. ok thx.
           \_ From this post I read: "I like to fuck my mother and drink pee."
           \_ Does not parse.  I am a jerk.  I don't give a rat's ass what
              immigrants, psb or anyone reads into this.  I posted a very
                          \- leave me out of this.
                             but i do think you are sort of ratcheting
                             and in some cases may not be able to tell
                             ignorance from apathy. --psb
                             \_ If you sound like an ignoramus, you are
                                judged like one, period.  -John
                                \- my point is: if you are judging based on
                                   the sloda wall or motd, people may not
                                   be bothering to write well, rather than
                                   being unable to do so. even native speakers
                                   are sloppy here, not unreasonably so.
                                   and i think if you are coming to the US
                                   to study say engineering, there may be a
                                   diminishing marginal return calculation
                                   for how much you invest in grammar.
                                   so are you going to take on ebonics
                                   so are you going to taken on ebonics
                                   speakers next?
                                   i'd be curious how many of your native
                                   english speaking friends could explain
                                   the difference between say "compared to"
                                   and "compared with". if an ESL speaker
                                   gets further and farther confused, i'd
                                   cut them [sic] some slack. if a non-engineer
                                   native speaker cant tell you the diff
                                   cut them some slack. a lot of non-engineer
                                   native speakers cant tell you the diff
                                   between precision and accuracy ... probably
                                   not a disaster. a foreign speaker isnt a
                                   lawyer, not knowing the diff between "that"
                                   and "which" is also probably not a big deal.
                                   i'm not very careful about those usually.
                                   i'm not very careful with those usually.
                                   i think a lot of grammar nazis 1. worry
                                   about dumb things like "data is plural"
                                   or "dont use hopefully" 2. have pretty
                                   shallow knowledge [they know easy rules
                                   like it's vs its, but drown in slightly
                                   deeper waters].
                                   deeper waters. a good example is that cow
                                   who wrote the Eat Shoot Leave book].
                                   \_ I think there's a pretty big difference
                                      between "not knowing data is plural" and
                                      "completely incoherent".  I suspect
                                      John is mostly complaining about the
                                      latter, and you're criticizing (at least
                                      in part) John on the basis that he's
                                      speaking about the previous.
              clear point about students at what is supposedly one of the
              best schools in the world seemingly not having a basic
              command of that school's language.  If you want to interpret
              that as being an anti-immigrant rant, or some sort of
              belittling of other cultures/countries, that's your problem.
              Your reply is not necessary. ok thx.  -John
              \_ psb: your coworkers asian stupid "oh psb immigrants
                 THE MAN! He knows Greek mythology asian stupid lila.
                 He immigrants god." "we asian stupid immigrants, we
                 can't understand his circumlocutory speech!"
                 \_ I'm sorry but WHAT THE HELL are you talking about?
                    \_ This is a sublime "If you have to ask, you don't know"
                       moment.
        \_ I'm multi-lingual and my observation is that Westerners in general
           have a much more difficult time learning non-Western languages
           than the other way around. How would you personally feel if you
           tried your best to learn in a completely different language system
           in a completely different culture but still get ridiculed in the
           process? Oh, you wouldn't know, because you're a Westerner who
           can't see from the other side's point of view. No wonder the rest
           of the world hates you and is eager to see 911 again,
           over and over again. Go fuck yourself.
           \_ 1) Go fuck yourself as well.
              2) Part of the reason people give you shit is that your politics
                 are repellant to anyone living in a free society and you
                 defend one of the most loathesome governments on the
                 planet on a regular basis.
              3) I'm a white guy who was thrown into a school of all Mandarin
                 speaking kids who knew no English when I was 10, and I'm
                 damn well not about to whine if someone gives me shit about
                 not knowing the difference between, say, different measure
                 words, in spite of the fact that my native language has no
                 measure words in the sense that Mandarin does.
              4) I don't have a college degree from a Chinese university.
              5) Did I mention go fuck yourself?  Oh, yeah, go fuck yourself.
           \_ Blow me, I'm going through that right now, starting from zero,
              and making a reasonable go of it.  This is language #4, by
              the way.  But I don't presume to go to their top school with
              my crappy understanding and grammar.  And what the fuck is it
              with you and "Westerners"?  What does that have to do with
              anything?  I guess that makes us deserve 911 over and over
              again, and I've been (badly) trolled.  Cretin.  -John
              my crappy understanding and grammar.  I guess that makes me
              as a "Westerner" deserve 911.  Touchy, aren't we.  -John
              \_ then, should US Education restore the policy of given
                 IQ test in English to those immigrants and dump them into
                 retard classes based upon the IQ test result?
        \_ I don't know what it is with you Swiss but I've had similar
           experiences with another pedantic Swiss in Berkeley who seems to
           enjoy correcting every little grammatical mistake people make.
           Eventually most of us in the company grew resentful of him
           (including the CEO who was a minority) and eventually drove him
           out of our company. Perhaps you should ask why immigrants don't
           like to conform, as understanding the root of the problem may help
           you find constructive measures. One of the root causes is
           western resentment. If it weren't for you westerners, our
           motherlands would still be glorious and our ethnicity would still
           be portrayed kindly. But instead your predecessors and your elected
           leaders continually harrass, rape, and pillage nations like Vietnam
           and Iraq and made us into worthless refugees into your land, only
           to be ridiculed for every little tradition we hold dearly in our
           heart because whatever it is, rarely comform to your western
           standard. Personally, most of us are sick and tired of your
           unyielding, dominating western ways, and we just don't like you
           people, period. We will continue doing whatever it is we please,
           and if it annoys you, great!         -foreigner, proud of it
           \_ "Every little grammatical mistake"?  No, I'm castigating UC
              Berkeley students who're supposed to have a firm command of
              the English language but instead sound like they learned the
              language from the villains of bad war movies (or who're doing
              it on purpose to troll more effectively.)  You seem to have
              a (reasonably) firm command of the English language.  You're
              still a troll and an idiot, but do you notice how well that
              comes across?  -John
              \_ John, there is a structural problems here in our public
                 education system (see my post below).  Not everything is the
                 fault of these individuals.   This is one of the reason why
                 problems are a lot more widespread.  I can
                 assure you that *MAJORITY* of otherwise bright and qualified
                 immigrants DID NOT end up at top Universities due to the fact
                 that there isn't much incentive in our public school system
                 to teach them English.  Those few who defeated
                 the odds and made here is either very lucky (i.e. my case) or
                 he/she is extra-ordinary in some way.  Blame this squarely
                 on individual is going to cause a lot more resentment and
                 you see all sort of defensive postures.   As for stereo types
                 and Asian being "looked down upon."  Let me share this with
                 you.  When I was in high school, I can barely communicate
                 my thoughts and most people don't have the patience to talk
                 to me.  At the same time, we got this ethnic Vietnamese
                 who raised in Paris, native French speaker, speak worse
                 English than I am, but he get a lot more attention and slack
                 than I do.  It's not the color of skin thing, but, there
                 is a real differences on how average American treats
                 Europeans immigrants differently than those from Asia.
              \_ I don't know who you are and why you've recently dominated
                 most of the posts on motd but I'm starting to realize that
                 you probably need something as simple as medications or
                 therapies. But then again that is not unique to most of the
                 weirdos who post on motd. Troll on.
        \_ first of all, it's just me, not "average CSUA member."
           I happened to be a slow language learner and amused by
           average Europeans that can speak more than 3 language without
           effort.  Secondly, since you bought up, ESL *IS* the problem.
           To make a long story short, issue with ESL is that 1.
           UC requires 2 or 3 years of non-ESL (regular English) class, 2.
           ESL is funded by number of headcounts; thus, there isn't much
           of an incentive for those who is running ESL program to make
           people "graduate" to regular English classes.  3. As consequences,
           most people who stuck in ESL program are dumb fucks who has no
           real chance to go to college in UC system;  4. Since the pace
           of ESL classes mostly determined by the peers, and the fact that
           most students in ESL classes has no college ambition, you don't
           learn any English as result (Chinese, Arabic, and Spanish was
           more common in those classes).  In my personal case, it took cheat
           (smuggle to ESL office and tweak the official record on language
           proficiency), and bribe to for me to get out of ESL in-time just
           to be UC eligable.  But by that time, I was thrust into classes
           on Virginia Wolfe / Nathaniel Hawthorne without any knowledge of
           basic sentence and grammar.  I am not blaming the system for
           my failure.  But the sheer fact that you can comprehen what I am
           trying to say is considered a huge personal achievement given
           the circumstances I was in.
           \_ Well, congrats on making it -- but feel comforted by the fact
              that it's not just you.  There are plenty of people here that
              have no excuse and, as John puts it, sound as though they're
              speaking orc....  Seriously, though, unless you plan on going
              back to your country of origin I strongly suggest that you
              work on your language proficiency.  It may not be the
              official language of the country, but it's still one of the
              things your intelligence will be judged by.  It can harder to
              things your intelligence will be judged by.  It can be harder to
              land a tech job (or any job, really) if you're unable to
              coherently communicate your ideas.  (and man, this thread is
              just begging for someone to run jive or valspeak, on it,
              isn't it?)
              coherently communicate your ideas.  (and man, dis dread be plum
              beggin' fo' someone t'run JIBE o' valspeak, on it, isn't it?)
              \_ Maybe you should consider the possibility that most
                 foreigners look at Westerners as people who judge easily by
                 the way others look or talk. Maybe foreigners think that
                 Westerners are superficial, thus don't really care to
                 conform to the Western standards. Whatever. Go fuck yourself
                \_ You pretty good looking for a HU-MAHN!
        \_ racist white imperialist oppressing brown people!
              \_ How to get started?  I am going to get a tutor eventually,
                 but I think I can start with some highschool level grammar
                 book.  Any recommendation?
                 book.  Any recommendation?
                        \- you can probably get a used copy of BASIC ENGLISH
                           REVISITED (it's kinda of a weird book) for <$5.
                           it's not all grammar but a reference book. the
                           actual textbook i used is pretty expensive now
                           and probably not worth it. --psb
                           \_ if it is a good book and worth recommending,
                              do you remember the title of the book?
                 \_ Unless you have a need to infiltrate or become part of the
                    dirty bi ren culture, I'm sure you have a much better use
                    of your time than to follow bi ren's advice. You should be
                    proud of who you are and what you are, and don't give in.
                    Don't listen to bi ren John. He is a verbal bully and a
                    total jerk. Look. If someone judges you by the way you
                    talk or look, that person is shallow and full of shit
                    and is a total jerk and does not deserve your respect.
                    That goes with 90% of the bi ren trash I've met in my
                    life. BI REN ZHUAY TAO YAN GAN TA MA DI.
                    \_ He didn't judge on it. He pointed out that others
                       would. It's a fact and you're just being stupid.
                       Of course people judge on the way people talk and
                       look. Chinese do that as much... actually I'd say
                       a lot more in my experience. The diversity of the
                       USA far exceeds any Asian country. Who's superficial?
                       Nobody owes you anything.
                 \_ You may be able to find a tutor interested in helping
                    you with English in exchange for help with your native
                    language.
                    \_ thanks.  But being a native speaker is by no mean
                       a commander of my own native language.  I am planning
                       on getting a native language tutor as well :D
2006/7/17-19 [Computer/HW/Laptop, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:43698 Activity:nil
7/17    My western digital WD800UE 80gb 5400 RPM laptop HD sometimes
        gives off a few "clicking" noise. Although this has been going
        on for a while and I haven't run into any problems. Is this
        the click of death? Should I be concerned? I am using it in an
        external enclosure and had it shortly after I got it. (it
        started to make that noise when I was trying to "disconnect
        usb device" in XP, it started to make that noise and XP said
        can't disconnect device because it is in use. Since then, the
        clicking noise happens every now and then. And just today the
        drive couldn't spin up for about 5 seconds for some reason..
        Is WD quality really that bad?
        \_ There is a tool on http://sysinternals.com that lists open filehandles
           under Windows (kind of like graphical lsof) -- I think it's
           called filemon.  Check that out.  As for the drive, back it up,
           like now.  -John
        \_ Buy a new HD immediately and transfer your files to it.  Toss this
           one.  Consider yourself lucky that you got an advance warning.
           The "click of death" means "you will soon lose all your data"
        \_ As above said plus: no, WD quality isn't special.  DOA or near-DOA
           drives have become way too common in recent years as the industry
           cuts back on QA and general quality while spending heavily on ever
           higher bits/square inch.  You've got a 1 year warrantee from WD.
           Use it.  If you want a quality drive get a scsi or fiber channel.
           For home use pay a little more for a SATA with a real warrantee.
           If they don't trust they own drives for longer than 1 year, why
           should you?
        \_ My laptop HD clicks.  It's audible but not loud.  It's normal
           for this drive. --jameslin
        \_ My laptop HD clicks.  It's audible but not loud.  It was like
           that from the very beginning, and apparently it's normal for
           this drive. --jameslin
2006/7/17-19 [Industry/Jobs] UID:43699 Activity:nil
7/17    I recently posted my resume on the web, and am now receiving emails
        from random recruiters.  I am actively looking for a job so I don't
        want to turn down good leads, but I've always had the impression that
        recruiters are evil and slimy.  What kind of experiences (good or bad)
        have folks on the motd had pursuing job leads through recruiters?  Is
        this just a bad idea?  Are there things I should watch out for?
        Thanks.
        \_ A recruiter's a recruiter.  If they directly represent an open
           position, and they can get you in the door, go for it.  Sending your
           resume to some email submission thing is a black hole at most places
           IMO.  If they're like "I want to add you to my stable^Wcontact list
           for possible future jobs", lose the zero.
           \_ I think this makes sense.  Random professional headhunters often
              have good leads that are worth pursuing.  As PP says, though --
              be sure the headhunter or recruiter has a specific lead in mind.
              If not, they're likely to be wasting your time.          -mice
        \_ The time I spent dealing with a recruiter was a total waste of
           time.  All the jobs they found were lame and uninteresting.
           --jameslin
        \_ The first thing I ask a random recruiter is if there is a specific
           job.  I want a city, job title, salary range, and if they'll give
           it, company name.  If they can't provide the first three up front,
           I politely decline.  If they ask for my resume I ask them first for
           the job description.  If they can't provide a job description, I
           politely decline.  Once you have the job description use the net to
           search key phrases and apply brain to see if you can figure out what
           company they're shilling for.  Then you can decide if you want to
           keep talking to random recruiter.
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:July:17 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>