Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:July:09 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2006/7/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43603 Activity:low
7/8     Just a reminder that it was USA and USSR divided the Korea.
        China had nothing to do with it.
        A little historical fact that is unknown to most of Americans:
        1. Foreign minister at the time, Zhou EnLai of PRC, via India,
        warned USA about not cross the 38th parallel or PRC would have no
        choice but defend itself.  US Army decided to go all the way.  Mind
        you that at the time, US does not recognize the government in Beijing
        as legitiment representitive of China.  There was geniune fear among
        Chinese that US would use this opportunity to get involved and perhaps
        restore the Nationalist government.
        2. Historical documents from China reveal the fact that China (yes,
        across the Yalu river) was continuously being bombed by Americans.
        At the time, many thought it was the prelude to American invasion.

        Korean War, from China side, was more of a war of self-defence than
        an ideological war.  Unfortuntely, American never see this conflict
        outside its "Communist" lens.   The sad thing is, American still view
        the world using this kind of broad-brush, jus that the lens has
        switched from "Communist" to "Terrorism."
        \_ Self-defense? What a silly chicom troll.
           \_ US acrossed the 38th parallel first.  US could of driven
              N.Koreans out of South Korea and stopped there.  But
              McArthur decided to go all the way.  We all know now that at
              the time, his intension was going to Beijing.   You can't say
              Beijing was paranoid because its fear turned out to be true.
              \_ Yes, after nearly being driven off the peninsula by invading,
                 Chinese & Soviet-supported North Korean hordes.  Good troll,
                 Have a troll snack!  -John
                 \_ N.Korea attacked S.Korea without (Communist) Chinese's
                    knowledge.  At the time, Mao Zetong was busy preparing
                    for invasion of Taiwan.  last thing Communist Chinese want
                    was draw any excuse for US involvement.
        \_ Maybe because they were sending several hundred thousand guys
           across the Yalu (including many "volunteers" before the PRC was
           officially involved) and allowing massive amounts of supplies to
           enter N. Korea.  Silly chicom troll.  -John
           \_ The bombing taken place before China gotten involved (i.e.
              before million of people were send across the Chinese border).
              When I read those documents, I was suspecious it was a Communist
              propaganda myself.  Then, 20 some years later, I saw the same
              tactic used in Vietnam.  It does seems that this is
              a common practice of USA to escalate the war.   Few tend to know
              the fact that US forces were bombing China/Vietnam.  When
              China/Vietnam respond to such hostile act, US President can
              turn to congress and ask for proper "response" as if US was
              being unfairly provoked.
              \_ Good troll, another troll snack!  Next week we move on to
                 Adult Troll-Gro.  -John
              \_ I don't see this as a troll, merely stating an
                 opinion that many people do not want to hear.
                 1) US did not recognize China as a legitimate
                 government at the time.
                 2) China has warned NK not to attack the south,
                 because the US will get involved and the Soviets will
                 not back them. But NK choose to listen to the Soviets
                 instead. And sure enough the soviets chickened out.
                 3) China does not want a conflict on the Korean
                 peninsula because it wants to focus on Taiwan. Having
                 US entering from the North and engaged in a conflict
                 would give substantial advantage for Taiwan to attack
                 from the south.
                 4) McArthur has stated more than once that he will
                 chase NK (terrorists using current terminology)
                 across the border, if necessary.
                 5) Factor all these into consideration, it became
                 clear it is in China's best interest to be
                 "PREEMPTIVE" about the war and make sure it doesn't
                 get to its borders. So it decided to get involved.
                 The "voluntary army" is just a cover.
                 6) The Korean war, and then the Vietnam war, is
                 basically how the international community, especially
                 the US, came to recognize China as a legitimate
                 government.  It really take WARS to establish
                 yourself, like the wars we've fought with Mexico.
                 (yeah, we did fight the Mexicans, imagine that huh?)
                 If you tell me US have no intention of aiding Taiwan
                 and stop once they captured the NK leaders inside
                 China territory, or think the US would not have done
                 the same if the situation is reversed.  You are even
                 a bigger troll. ;) -chiry
                 \_ At least we're agreed about the "voluntary army" being
                    a cover for PRC involvement in the Korean War. Now we
                    need to get you to realize that PRC could have defused
                    tensions by not allowing the North Koreans to retreat into
                    China to begin with. After that, we'll work on the party
                    line about pre-emption being the PRC's only means of
                    avoiding invasion by MacArthur. --erikred
2006/7/9-10 [Transportation/Bicycle] UID:43604 Activity:nil
7/9     Help! My bicycle fell into the sand and my new Shimano Deore DX
        shifters have sand inside. I can feel them when I shift. How
        hard is it to clean up the shifters? I'd hate to take them apart
        only to find out that they're impossible to put back, like most of
        the modern over-engineered components today.
        \_ You can put them back together.  -tom
2006/7/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:43605 Activity:kinda low
7/9     Boo.  Zidane.  Boo.  -John
        \_ I liked it.  You are stupid.  Keira Knightley is still flat.
        \_ yeah, those islamic terrorist.  should of rendition him to
           egypt or Jordan.
        \_ I'm a france fan, but still that was an awesome move!
           \_ Why? It didn't do anything and he got ejected. It was retarded.
           \_ It was lame.  He was set to end an awesome career as one of the
              best and most respected players ever on a really high note,
              whether they won or lost.  Not showing up for the medal
              ceremony was even worse.  I always thought of the guy as a
              really good sport as well as a superb player, despite his
              early career temper outbreaks.  This just sucked.  -John
              \_ I saw a couple dives from him over last couple games.
                 I think he was pissed his header was stopped.
              \- I am kinda wondering, and even kinda hoping, it will
                 turn out that was in response to some kind of racial or
                 ethinic or relig taunt and the tide of sympathy will
                 turn to ZZ. He's a great player technically, isnt a diving
                      \- i think this is particlarly likely given that ZZ
                         whacked MM, who is one of the more thuggish italian
                         players [MM was suspended a while ago for whacking
                         another Serie A player in the face and was also the
                         guy responsible for ZZ getting the early PK when
                         he hit MALOUDA]
                 weasel, he's been through a lot of crap domestically in
                 france, and a prett decent guy off the field [HENRY on the
                 other hand led a bit of a rock star lifestyle but lately
                 got a lot of sympathy after the spanish coach incident].
                 There is certainly a "grand tragedy" element to this ...
                 ZZ was one of the best PKers in the world [for the imminent
                 KFTM phase], he would have won the MVP gold ball award
                 probably if France had won ...  so he woul dhave gone out
                 probably if France had won ...  so he would have gone out
                 on the highest note possible.  But unless some mitigating
                 story emerges, his career is going to be bracketed by two
                 headbutts. Here is a good older article about ZZ:
                 Would have been nice to have seen HENRY and T'GUET play
                 "en ensemble" rather than as close subs. BTW, you are
                 probably right ZZ just didnt want to come out for the
                 medals, but it is possible the fact that after the RED CARD
                 he was obligated to leave the area had some element ... but
                 probably he could have come back if he wanted to. i guess
                 DE ROSSI'S suspension ended just in time for the final after
                 his suspension after putting a bunch of stiches in MCBRIDE's
                 head. --psb
                 \_ we could lock him up, toss him into a jail in Egypt
                    somewehre, pull his finger nails out one by one and find
                    out why he did it.  He is a muslim, right?  we already
                    have plenty of facilities to deal with these muslims.
                 \_ I suspect so as well.  I wouldn't put it past Materazzi &
                    co. to have tried to rattle Ziziou all game; I'd give $$$
                    to have been able to listen in after MM held him back
                    before the headbutt.  -John
                    \- I watched this a couple of times:
                       Maybe wishful thinking but it seems that MM
                       may have done 1. a nipple tweak [remember, there was
                       probably a covert ear pull on Ballack in the GER-ITA
                       game] which ZZ brushes off 2. then come comments as the
                       are walking along together 3. then presumably some
                       escalatory comment as ZZ spins around ad immediately
                       butts MM. If it did turn out that MM said something
                       maximally offensive [n-word level or think of the
                       crudest anti-semitic thing you can think of ... not
                       just a "yermom" joke] do you really blame somebody for
                       clocking the other person. Well yes you do given the
                       circumstances, but i think my reaction is he should have
                       waited 10min and then whacked him ... meaning it was
                       whackworthy. Something like what happened after the
                       ARG-GER game [although with differnt motivations].
                       I guess I dont buy the view expressed by some that no
                       trash talk justifies the knock to the chest i.e. the
                       "they are just words" view. I thin the Red Card was
                       appropriate and they had now choice, but again if it
                       does turn out MM said some "maximally insulting" thing
                       who would you think worse of: Somebody with a flash of
                       anger or somebody so classless as to resort to the
                       crudest insults [which i dont think are "part of the
                       game"] or even worse somebody who really is a bigot.
                       Is the judgement of history really going to be ZZ was
                       "shameful" or "disgraced" or just dumb? There is a
                       \_ "Maximally insulting"? What does that even mean?
                          Insults only mean as much as a person lets them
                          mean. People have probably died over yermom jokes.
                          Being dumb like that in a crucial moment is rather
                          shame- and disgraceful by itself. I would not be
                          surprised if MM "had it coming" or whatever but
                          there's really no way around it.
                          By the way I would not advise assaulting someone
                          because of insults regardless of their racial,
                          national, or religious content.
                          \- if you cant think of an example, either you have
                             lived a pretty sheltered life or dont have much
                             imagination. i dont think it is appropriate to
                             give examples in the motd. you might want to
                             watch the movie "white hunter black heart"
                             for the woman->sketch of hitler scene.
                             \_ No I just understand that words really are
                                words at the end of the day. Of course
                                football is also only football and ZZ's
                                headbutt was the most entertaining thing
                                to happen in a match watched for entertainment.
                                \- You know spitting on an opponent is a
                                   Red Card offense right. Do you think that
                                   is unreasonable...after all, it is just
                                   water?? Do you think with insults between
                                   players the rule should be you can say
                                   whatever you want? whatever you want as
                                   long as the ref doesnt hear? how about
                                   getting the crowd into it by making
                                   animal sounds, nazi salutes etc? [some
                                   of this has happened in futbol in europe,
                                \- You know spitting on an opponent is a Red a
                                   Card offense right. Do you think that is
                                   unreasonable?...after all, it is just water
                                              plus germs and phlegm etc. _/
                                   ... and i am not even sure your "spitball"
                                   has to hit somebody. Do you think with
                                   insults between players the rule should be
                                   you can say whatever you want? whatever you
                                   want as long as the ref doesnt hear? how
                                   about getting the crowd into it by making
                                   animal sounds, nazi salutes etc?  [some of
                                   this has happened in futbol in europe,
                                   cricket in australia etc]. [BTW, there is a
                                   Red Card provision for inappropriate verbal
                                   comments. I cant think of any cases where
                                   this came into effect so I dont have any
                                   context of events. There have been a few
                                   famous spitting incidents].
                                   famous spitting incidents ... the FRA keeper
                                   was suspended for 6mos over a spitting
                                   incident (against a ref, tho).
                                   \_ Spit is physical. I think doing something
                                      egregiously unsportsmanlike deserves red
                                      cards so obviously spitting belongs. So
                                      would some kind of racist gestures. Your
                                      "as long as the ref doesn't hear" is no
                                      different from other incidents... if ZZ's
                                      headbutt hadn't been caught on camera and
                                      displayed in the stadium he probably
                                      would not have been carded. In theory
                                      verbal comments could cause this (But
                                      the only related example I ever see are
                                      when the ref cards for arguing with the
                                      ref.) But even if MM should have been
                                      red carded it doesn't really help ZZ's
                                      case. The apparent nipple tweak might
                                      though. ZZ most probably had a pretty
                                      good reason but it would appear he
                                      placed his ego above the team.
                                      \- being spat upon is not really physical
                                         but at essence a demeaning gesture.
                                         again i think you can be suspended
                                         for spitting at somebody and not
                                         landing the spitball. they are NOT
                                         allowed to book somebody for
                                         something that was not seen by one
                                         of the 4 officials [ref, ast refs on
                                         the touchlines, or "4th man" ...
                                         who is not supposed to use video].
                                         the claim is only this 4th man saw it
                                         directly. they also dont show replays
                                         of controversial stuff in the stadium.
                                         BTW, Sepp and Co have proposed going
                                         to 2 refs for SA 2010 WC. Also lots
                                         of discussion about letting game-
                                         related decisions [say related to
                                         offsides] stand but ex post
                                         penalites for things noticed on
                                         video [diving]. the world is more
                                         complicated than "there are physical
                                         assaults and non-physical ones and
                                         physical ones are lexicographically
                                         worse". i find it odd that any adult
                                         cannot see the "sticks and stones...
                                         words can never hurt me" is nonsense.
                                         assuming you are a USA white person
                                         i dunno if there is an equivalent
                                         to something like "kaffir boeties"
                                         here. see e.g. paragraph 3 here:
                                         about how generic "your mama" taunts
                                         are not the same as personally
                                         tailored "maximal insults". if a
                                         german player said "after the game
                                         i am going to clean my ass with a
                                         soapbar my grandfather made out of
                                         your grandfather" would you blame the
                                         jewish person from clocking the
                                         german guy?
                                         \_ Yes, I would blame the Jew.  Every-
                                            one else does!  (rimshot!)  It Is
                                            clear from your description that
                                            your hypothetical German is just
                                            trying to goad your hypothetical
                                            Jew at a highly public event.  If
                                            it happened on the street, then
                                            no, I wouldn't blame him for
                                            clocking the German guy.  Also, I
                                            find it interesting that someone
                                            above was unwilling to give a
                                            specific example but you not only
                                            did but chose Jews as the victims.
                                            \- did you miss the afrikaans one?
                                               i didnt think an example
                                               you would have needed to have
                                               been from india or alegeria
                                               would have had much currency
                                               on the motd.
                                               \_ I saw it.  Dropping a URL and
                                                  a 2 word quote isn't nearly
                                                  the same as the 'quality'
                                                  line you came up with all
                                                  on your own.  Having been on
                                                  the receiving end of that
                                                  sort of thing many times over
                                                  the years, I salute you, for
                                                  I have never heard anything
                                                  as hateful as you managed to
                                                  come up with but I still
                                                  wouldn't beat you up on
                                                  camera in front of millions
                                                  around the world over it.
                                                  \_ Coward.
                                                     \_ ... says the anonymous
                                            Ho hum, status quo.  And while
                                            we're at it, I'm sure you'd rather
                                            someone *say* something mean to
                                            you than *spit* on you.  I'm sure
                                            you'll find being spat on quite
                                         \_ Of course spit is physical. It's
                                            also gross, and I think they all
                                            spit too much anyway during the
                                            games but that's just me. And yes
                                            they claim the 4th man saw it but
                                            they did show it in the stadium so
                                            who can say for sure. The fact it
                                            took so long for a card to come out
                                            casts doubt. But yes I would blame
                                            someone for physically attacking
                                            someone in response to words. This
                                            should be extremely clear cut. The
                                            law holds this up too. Yes that
                                            also applies to "kaffirs" and Jews.
                                            Violence is a completely different
                                            class of action. I would find it
                                            *understandable* but not justified.
                                            An attack is dangerous and should
                                            be treated very seriously. People
                                            can die from seemingly mild
                                            violence. Do you support murder
                                            of racists?
                                            \_ Murder?  Now you've gone off
                                               into lala land.  Who was talking
                                              \_ Attacking someone can possibly
                                                 get one of you killed.
                                                 \_ You can also get hit by a
                                                    stray meteor.  It isn't
                                                    murder.  It is assault
                                                    and battery.  And this
                                                    entire sub-thread is way
                                                    off topic.  I guess you
                                                    have no response to what
                                                    I was saying so you chose
                                                    to distract instead.
                                                    \_ A stray meteor isn't
                                                       caused by a human.
                                                       Assault and battery is.
                                                       It can easily lead to
                                                       serious injury or death
                                                       and attackers know this.
                                                       I don't actually know
                                                       what your argument is.
                                                       We started with "insults
                                                       justify violence" which
                                                       I refuted. You're
                                                       jumping on this murder
                                                       thing but I was just
                                                       pointing out that
                                                       violence is serious in
                                                       a way that insults can
                                                       never be close to. This
                                                       "debate" is pretty much
                                                       off the tracks though.
                                                       Good job...
                                                       \_ Are you Jewish?
                                 I'm the guy on the top:  _/
                                                       \- dans, is this you?
                                                          some of the writing
                                                          "i refuted..." is
                                                          consistent with your
        \_ LAST BOY SCOUTcp
        \_ God, soccer sucks. France seemed to be the better team (more
           shots on goal, for example) and yet they lost because of
           penalty kicks. Why not skip the whole game and just shoot
           penalty kicks at the beginning? I was wholly unimpressed with
           Italy throughout the tournament and yet they are the champions.
        \_ I liked it.  You are stupid.  Keira Knightley is still flat.
           \_ Hey, we tied them! We are the co-champions!!
2006/7/9-11 [Recreation/Media] UID:43606 Activity:nil
7/9     Pirates of Caribbean 2. Sucked mule's balls. It is basically
        a long, boring tease for Pirates 3.
        \_ I liked it.  You are stupid.  Keira Knightley is still flat.
        \_ I liked it.  You are stupid.  Keira Knight is flat.
        \_ I liked it.  Greatest movie ever?  No.  As good as the first?  I
           don't remember the first.  But it was fun, it was funny, and it
           was pretty, and hey, that's why I went.  --dbushong
        \_ Are you comparing the movie to mule's balls based on personal
           experience?  Movie reviews are not a matter to be taken lightly!
2006/7/9-10 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:43607 Activity:low
7/9     ok, India just test fire a missile that is capable of carry nuclear
        warhead and has the range to hit Beijing.
        How come there is no "concern" when India test its missile and
        develop nuclear bomb?
        \_ Why the "quotes" around "concern"?  Probably India actually notified
           other nations of the test and where the rockets were pointed.  And
           of course Kim Jong Il is a crazy little man.
             re: india, what are you "worried" about?
             \_ Rocketman!? We'd better send him to pick up the hash in
           \_ how come there is no talk of saction again India?  I mean
              missile testing alone is not an illegal act.  our over-reaction
              was anticipated thus being leveraged by Kim Jong Il.
        \_ Wow, the Purina Troll Chow is really getting results!  -John
        \_ The politically correct answer is because India is a
           democratic society, unlike NK, therefore they will not go
           nuts and start to attack others. But seeing how we've set a
           perfect example of how corporate greed and money can
           overweight right and wrong in a democratic society, I think
           we should be making a bit deal out of it too. Who knows,
           India may decide to bomb little countries that have oil
           \_ No, the answer is simply because India is a responsible
              country and NK is not.  Iran is not.  Israel is.  The US is.
              Britan is.  China is.  France is.  And at the moment, for the
              time being, Pakistan is.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:July:09 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>