Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:April:04 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2006/4/4 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:42646 Activity:moderate
4/3     Suburbs are like SUVs. We know they're not eco-friendly and many
        people hate them, but everyone loves to own them because they
        provide more space and comfort. Suburb increase our needs for
        automobile, energy use, and traffic congestion, thus are detrimental
        to the environment as much as SUVs. Suburbs and SUVs are
        Weapons of Mass Destruction. Boycott them now!!!
        \_ we need weapons of mass destruction to maintain detente
        \_ Giving you the undeserved benefit of the doubt by assuming this is
           not a troll, what alternative would you suggest?  I should point
           out that you're completely and utterly ignorant of the history that
           led to the rise of suburbs in the last century, and is currently
           leading to exurbs. -dans
           \_ the alternative is mega-cities where everyone cramped into
              apartments which is on average less than 1000 square feet per
              FYI, China in the middle of 1990s has decided that they are
              going to follow the USA model:  concentrate government subsidies
              on automobile-related infrastructures.  It's been only 10 years
              and the problem is already very appearent: tail-pipe pollution,
              congestion, fuel shortage that is beyond the imagination of
              average Americans who blocked Unical merger.
              \_ Maybe they just have too damned many people?  Would China have
                 enough useful land to spread everyone out in the farm lands?
                 Would super high density no-auto zones really solve anything
                 or just make people even more unhappy and insane?  People
                 need space.  Cramped little apartments are completely
                 unnatural and unhealthy.  No one thinks people *want* to
                 commute 1-2 hours each way in the US but they do it so they
                 can get out of the city which they can't afford to live in
                 \_ there are alternative ways to solve the problem.  cities
                    based upon public transportation than private cars, for
                    example.  People even talking about conveyer belt for
                    side walks, etc.  People are getting used to the USA model
                    and reluctant to dump money on different form of
                    \_ when was this magic pre-USA period of time when cities
                       didn't exist?
              \_ I asked you what the alternative was, not for some screed
                 about another possible consequence of overpopulation.  We all
                 know that too many people in too small a space is a bad
                 thing.  Tell us something insightful.  Furthermore, we don't
                 really have many actual mega-cities, Tokyo, Hong-Kong, maybe
                 Dubai is shaping up to be one, can you point to others?  Can
                 you point to an existing city that is growing into a
                 mega-city?  I am highly doubtful that this will happen in
                 either New York or San Francisco, two cities I am intimately
                 familiar with. -dans
2006/4/4 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:42647 Activity:high
4/3     Firefox SessionSaver plugin kicks ass.  Recommend highly! -dans
        \_ Actually, you will find later that it kinda sucks.
           \_ Why?
              \_ (1) It doesn't scale, (2) It's not all that reliable,
                 (3) It/Firefox have a tendency to crash.
                 \_ Don't have 90 myspace tabs open.  I think there's
                    more than 1 build of session saver running around.
                    make sure you have the latest from the extensions
                    mozdev site.  I haven't had it crash on me in
                    a long time, but I also have flashblock installed.
                    It's very convenient.  I hate liking the same
                    things dans does.
                    \_ I'd like to have as many tabs open as I damn well
                       please, thank you.
                    \_ You're upset that you share an appreciation for a
                       useful tool with someone you find personally
                       distasteful?  Words fail to describe how stupid that
                       is. -dans
        \_ Opera's had this feature for years (sans plugin).
           \_ No tabs.  I grabbed the freebie Opera a few months back,
              couldn't find tabs, couldn't find a Firefox style extensions
              system, and uninstalled.
              \_ Um, Opera is designed as MDI.  Pages only exist as tabs.  I'm
                 sorry you weren't able to figure it out.
                 \_ That's nice n all but if it wasn't obvious in the first
                    30 seconds it's a waste of my time.  The software is there
                    to help me get my work done and improve efficiency.  If I
                    have to spend more than 30 seconds to figure it out, it
                    was poorly designed.  I spent several minutes looking
                    around for extensions but I'm sure they're there somewhere
                    and I'm just not smart enough to figure it out.  I'll stick
                    with Firefox, the browser for dummies, thanks.
                    \_ Suit yourself, dummy.
                       \_ Wow, this exchange is really interesting from a
                          psych 101 perspective.
                          \_ How's that?
                       \_ I'm quite suited to the best browser out there,
                          thanks.  A browser shouldn't be obscure or difficult
                          to figure out.  If yermom can't figure it out, it is
                          crap.  The browser does nothing more than load html
                          text from remote sites and display it.  Why does the
                          program require more than the most trivial computer
                          ability to use it?  Opera = crap.  I'd go back to IE
        \_ Session Saver caused FF 1.0.x to crash quite often on me; I don't
           know if it's better in more recent versions.  --dbushong
        \_ sessionsaver in moz 1.7.x and seamonkey for me seem to have problems
           autosaving... sometimes I get back a session from a couple days
        \_ In response to the poster who complained about
           scalability/stability issues, I have yet to experience stability
           problems on Firefox on OS X, but have only been using it
           for about a week now.  As for scalability, it took a few minutes to
           reopen Firefox after closing it with approx 65 tabs open, but that
           still saves me time over manually bookmarking all tabs for every
           window I have open. -dans
2006/4/4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42648 Activity:nil
4/4     pervo dans 19 year old fancier, fob motd guy, motd boob
        guy have primitive love child:
2006/4/4 [Health/Eyes, Health/Women] UID:42649 Activity:moderate
4/4     hey sky I thought you lived in the bay area,,1746333,00.html?gusrc=rss
        The strange case of the man who took 40,000 ecstasy pills in
        nine years
        \_ That's Sparky.  "Uh..uh..uh...fuggit."  -John
        \_ Are you sure this is sky? Sounds like dans to me.
           \_ Agreed. The exclamation marks, capitalization, and
              the fact that he responds to trolls 24x7 are all leading
              indicators that dans is on meth. sky on the other hand
              is on weeds.
              \_ At least he freebases with his circle of friends.
              \_ Will dans stop the madness before he becomes the next
              \_ Troll harder. -dans
              \_ Troll harder.  By the way, I seem to be missing the volume of
                 the New England Journal of Medicine that published the
                 double-blind study correlating motd posting habits to drug
                 use.  Why don't you post a link to the article so the rest of
                 us can read it? -dans
        \_ So that's like what, 4 kilos of MDMA?
2006/4/4 [Computer/HW/Memory, Consumer/Audio] UID:42650 Activity:low
4/4     To whoever recommended crucial, thanks for the tip, but
        I just cancelled my order with them.  Their credit card
        clearing operation is pathetic, and customer service was
        rude and unhelpful.  They were unwilling and/or unable to
        try to figure out how to process an out-of-US order.  Fuck
        them.  Thanks anyway.  Any other suggestions?  -John
        \_ Wow, sorry to hear about that.  I've also used
           \_ Don't apologize, I appreciate the tips.  I'll try them. -John
        \_ I've bought ram from 1-800-4-Memory (
           They were cheap and decent, but I have no idea how the service
           is outside the US. Another option could be to try
        \_ Crucial is just a memory maker.  They're resold by a zillion other
           companuies around the world.,,
 , froogle,, etc to find a reseller.
        \_ John, here is a hint:  American Express.
           No, I am not kidding.  Most of online store in USA requires
           billing address in USA.  If you are using some non-USA card,
           you are going to get into trouble.   American Express appearently
           only check the zip code. So, as long as the zip code is correct,
           it will go through.  In my part of town, my zip code is 3 digit,
           and i managed to get it through by padding it with zeros at the
           front of digits :p           kngharv
           \_ I don't think it is true--I work with Versign and AVS is
              available for AmEx as well.  It's up to the vendor whether
              to use it or not.
           \_ The thing is, I already have 2 gold cards (one Swiss and
              one Chilean.)  AmEx is fine, but I have never ever ever
              had trouble with either of my Visas except with US vendors.
              I'd prefer not to have another card floating around just to
              deal with people who're too lazy to implement proper ID
              checking (which this is a case of.)  And as for zip codes,
              many of the shops I've had trouble with don't understand that
              a lot of the world doesn't work that way (my zip code right
              now is "Las Condes", go figure.)  Thanks though.  -John
        \_ Amazon seems to sell some Crucial memory.  I've bought from
           Amazon abroad and shipped to the US, and that went smoothly.
           Perhaps the reverse is also smooth.
2006/4/4 [Recreation/Dating, Computer/Rants] UID:42651 Activity:high 61%like:42661
        Donkeys are more loyal than wives, says textbook.
        \_ I would say domestic housepets are even more loyal.
           \_ "You bitch!"  "Thanks for the compliment!"
           \_ "You give a beggar a meal, he only loves you while it's on his
2006/4/4 [Recreation/Food, Recreation/Media] UID:42652 Activity:nil
        Yoyo, what's up home boy? Ya want KFC for finger licking good dinner?
2006/4/4 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Industry/Startup] UID:42653 Activity:nil
        Computer Sciences Cutting 5,000 Jobs. Don't worry it's not
        CS CS, but CS Corp. What a dumb ass company name, it's like
        Merck naming itself "Pharmaceuticle Company"
        \_ How do you feel about Microchip, LSI, or VLSI?
           \_ Or Analog Devices.  But yea, CSC is bad.  My company uses them
              and they are incompetent.
        \_ Usually they are called 'CSC'. As other have noted, how is
           that much different from, say, SAIC?
2006/4/4 [Reference/BayArea] UID:42654 Activity:moderate
4/4     Hey City Utopia guy, let's say you've matured and have outgrown your
        needs to socialize with your friends and have PS2 LAN parties. Let's
        say you get a real job, settle down, get married, have kids, and
        buy a minivan. Are you still going to live in the city? Where
        are your kids gonna play? Where are you gonna park your minivan?
        Where would you go when your baby cries 12x7? Where would you
        \_ Hit the baby in the head with a shovel
        hide when your wife start nagging 24x7?
        \_ Go fuck yourself.
        \_ The issues you're describing are not unique to cities, and
           suburbs are not immune to them.
        \_ Plenty of people raise kids in cities.  It's not that hard.
           \_ Yes but city kids tend to do drugs or become gay.
              \_ Do you have any evidence of this?
                 \_ The best evidence possible: word of God through Falwell's
        \_ Berkeley is a suburb of SF, right?
           \_ so Oakland is chopped liver?
              \_ Do more Berkeley residents work in Oakland or SF?  Either
                 way, Berkeley is a suburb.  I wonder if Berkeley would be
                 acceptable to City Utopia guy.
              \_ "There's no 'there' there"
2006/4/4 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42655 Activity:nil
        The Culture of Corruption making headlines. Any more on the list?
2006/4/4-6 [Health/Disease/General, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:42656 Activity:moderate
4/4     "The [black] kids here have no hope. They have nothing to aspire to
         other that being a rapper or an athlete, and that's a million-to-one
         shot. In my neighborhood the only people recruiting are the gangs."
             "Empty plastic
             Culture slum suburbia
             Is a war zone now
             Sprouting the kinds of gangs
             We thought we'd left behind
             This could be anywhere
             This could be everywhere"
             \_ Everything I know came from a lyrics site on the net, too.
         \_ after centuries of oppression, what do you expect?
            "here is your freedom from slavery, not get the fuck out
            "here is your freedom from slavery, now get the fuck out
             of here"
            \_ Yeah, right.
                   We gained so much valuable medical information from
                   these experiments.
                   And don't forget all blacks love that guy Jim Crow!!
        \_ And up above you can see anonymous people arguing like idiots! -dans
           \_ why are you not hanging out with your hot gf instead of
              nuking the motd?
              \_ UCSC is back in session.  She has school, I have work to do
                 for clients. -dans
                 \_  You work for a think tank that studies the crazy political
                     positions of computer industry professionals?  That's cool.
                     Are they hiring?
                     positions of computer industry professionals?  That's
                     cool. Are they hiring?
                     \_ Get in line, buddy!  I've been here way longer than
                        you!  There's a seniority system in place.
        \_ I totally agree that black kids have no hope. I mean until ROTJ
           black kids could hope to become a Dark Lord of the Sith w/
           unrivaled force powers and other 1337 mad skillz, but then Lucas
           screws it all up by revealing that the badest black man in the
           history of the universe was really a pastey old white geezer. That
           is the real crime. Now all black kids have to hope for is to become
           Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Sec. of State or a Justice of the
           Supreme Court. Not one lightsaber amongst them, talk about a total
           let down. -stmg
           \_ But they can be like Lando Calrissian and drink Colt 45!
              \_ Lando sold out to a pastey old white guy. =(
              \_ "I'm altering our deal. Pray I don't alter it any futher."
           \_ Uh, so until then you thought Luke might be part black?
              \_ "You don't know the power of the Dark Side."
                 Besides in a galaxy, far far awy, Black + White could
                 equal whiny, long haired blond luser. -stmg
2006/4/4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:42657 Activity:moderate
4/4     AZ Voter Reward Act.  "This law will establish a voter reward random
        drawing every two years with a first prize of one million dollars or
        more. The purpose is to increase voter participation. Voters who cast
        ballots in primary or general elections will be eligible to win."
        \_ way to grab the poor vote.
           \_ Which puts the Republicans at a disadvantage. Oh no!
        \_ How about if you vote, you get tax deduction?
        \_ How about if you don't vote 5 years in a row, you lose your
        \_ This sounds like a really bad idea, it's bound to invoke the
           law of unintended consequences.  This will bring to the polls
           people that are not informed, but simply want the money.  These
           folks are less likely to make informed decisions.  But maybe
           that's the point. --jwm
           people that are not informed, but simply want the money.  But
           maybe that's the point. --jwm
        \_ I don't see any reason to artificially boost voter participation.
           Voting isn't a lottery and we shouldn't have to bribe people to
           exercise a right others have died for.
        \_ Is this Constitutional? I don't think so. Can you pay people
           to vote?
           \_ What particular section of the US (or state) constitution
              would forbid this?  I don't mean to be argumentative, but
              if you're going to cite the Constitution or "the law", put
              up the particulars.  Anyway, Paying people to vote a certain
              way (and not in the "vote for me and I'll cut your taxes"
              way) is pretty verboten, but just to show up at the polls?
              People here get free stickers for voting -- Is that verboten?
              \_ The sticker is a red herring. Can, say, the Governator
                 pay every registered Republican $100 to turn out and
                 vote 'however they choose to vote'? I don't think so.
              Sec. 1973i(c)
              There is a law which makes it illegal to buy votes in an
              election for federal offices.  There are probably state laws
              prohibiting vote buying for individual states.
              The correct question is to ask:  Are these laws
              unconstitutional?  Probably not.
              How about a state law which institutes a lottery?  I don't know.
        \_ The problem with voting from my point of view is it's
           inconvenient. The vote day should be a mandatory holiday.
           Also the registration and absentee ballot process should be
           simpler. It should be a state-coordinated marketing effort
           to just go to a promoted web site and fill in minimum
           info, to get the ball rolling and the forms sent to you
           with postage-paid return envelopes, and send absentee
           ballots to everyone by default.
           \_ Voting shouldn't be so easy it has no value or meaning.  Voting
              is something people should think about and understand wtf theyre
              doing before they vote.  I used to think low turnout was a bad
              thing but then I realised I don't want the stupid, the uninformed
              and the too lazy to bother diluting my vote.  Let them stay home
              and play video games.  Voting is just not that hard.
2006/4/4 [Health/Disease/AIDS, Health/Disease/General] UID:42658 Activity:kinda low
        Church Goers Live Longer. Does that mean our Mormon friends
        on motd will probably post long after while the liberals die
        from AIDS, meth, and other illegal substance?
        \_ It's moot.  The religious fundamentalists will out-breed the
           \_ But we out recruit the fundies.
              \_ From their children?
        \_ But they live that longer life in a state of delusion....  W/o
           the religious vote, we would not have had the disaster that has
           been the Bush administration.  But I guess it's not surprising that
           the religious people voted for a big hypocrite like themselves.
           \_ Yeah, the kettle thinks you're black too.
        \_ Doctor: You have six months to live.
           Patient: What can I do?
           Doctor: Well... you could give up sex, booze and cigars.
           Patient: Would I live longer then?
           Doctor: No, but it will seem longer...
           \_ If they're having all those kids it didn't come from giving
              up sex....
2006/4/4 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:42659 Activity:high
4/4     In Unix how does one figure out the amount of space a directory (all
        it's files and subdirectories, recursively) takes up?
        \_ man du
           \_ man du gook
           \_ mandu gook
              \_ mashitt da.
           \_ Thanks
2006/4/4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:42660 Activity:high
4/4     For the folks who keep suggesting that building well-designed cities
        won't work, consider that the rush to suburbanization was artificially
        created by real estate developers and car manufacturers who
        aggressively destroyed public transportation and bribed public
        officials to pass no-mixed-use zoning laws to force out downtown
        businesses. This is not conspiracy theory. See "Home from Nowhere"
        for more details.
        \_ Great.  Name one well-designed city.  I am genuinely curious
           as to what it is you want your cities to be like (don't get me
           wrong, I love living in cities, and I rent, but I feel from your
           posts that you may be seeing things a bit simplistically.)  -John
           \_ New York especially Manhatten, SF, Paris.  Seattle,
              although less so than the others. Boston and Chicago but I
              haven't spent more than a few weeks in those.
              \_ You do understand that there are more jobs in cities than
                 living space for people, right?  It takes a *lot* more space
                 per person for living than for working.  So it is necessary
                 for people to come from elsewhere to fill those jobs since
                 the city lacks living space for everyone.  We call the place
                 where all those workers live "the suburbs".  Now then, I do
                 understand than in Utopiaville, the jobs/living space balance
                 is in perfect harmony becaus our Beloved City Planners were
                 able to magically predict population growth, demographic
                 shifts, and drastic changes in the economy but outside of
                 LaLa Fairy Land most of the rest of us live in the burbs and
                 work in the city.  Not because we like commuting 2-3 hours a
                 day but because we can't afford to live in the city near our
                 jobs.  I think it's funny you'd choose SF as an ideal city
                 since the public transit sucks and by plane, train, or auto-
                 mobile it can easily take an hour or more to get anywhere.
                 Manhatten is a shithole.  Paris is hardly any better.  I
                 haven't been to the other cities you mention but I suspect
                 they have suburbs and an inner city just like everywhere
                 else.  I suspect you've been reading too much utopian fantasy
                 academic literature without taking a step back and looking at
                 how real people live and why.  People aren't little cogs or
                 resource units for you to push around from one square to the
                 \_ Singapore doesn't have any suburbs.  Everyone (>4 million)
                    lives and works in the city.
                    \_ Ok great let's add 'caning' to the books, too.  I
                       can't wait to join your Utopiaville.
                       \_ american cities were built when blacks still have
                          to sit at the back of the bus.  what's your point?
                       \_ nah, the suburbs of chicago is utopia.  very low
                          crime, living is easy but rather boring.
                    \_ or drives in on a motorbike from Malayasia --oj
                       \_ are you from catholic high or hcjc?
                    \_ Same with Hong Kong.
                 \_ I have lots of colleagues who lives in the city and works
                    in the suburbs here in Chicago.
                    \_ As I said, I've never been to Chicago.  Do you think
                       your friends are typical of the Chicago area?
                       \_ I don't know.  I guess they like the city.  I like
                          to live near my work.  I don't see why it should
                          be difficult to have the jobs move to the suburbs.
                          It's happening here in Chicago.  I rarely need to
                          go to the city.  I don't have a problem with your
                          conclusion, but the argument you are using - jobs
                          are in the city, no living space there - may not
                          be a valid assumption.  Chicago suburb cities like
                          Naperville or Schaumburg have lots of jobs, but
                          you still need a car.
                 \_ You have been brainwashed. It used to be that all workers
                    lived and worked in cities.
                    \_ This worked when you had servants willing to live in
                       tiny closets.  -John
                       \_ Do most people living in the cities have servants
                          \_ Do you think many of the gardeners, shop
                             assistants, cleaners, maids, dishwashers,
                             cab drivers and other fairly low paid but
                             important blue collar workers live in
                             Manhattan?  Hint: no.  Upshot:  Yes, you can
                             create much better public transportation to
                             the suburbs than what most American cities have,
                             but you'll never have some magical fairyland
                             self-contained urban ideal.  Nor do the Euro
                             cities so many urban planning advocates cite
                             as examples have it right.  -John
                 \_ You can afford to live in the city you work in. You cannot
                    afford a 4000 sq ft house in the city you work in. My
                    commute from one side of San Francisco to the other is
                    35 minutes on a bad day, using rapid transit.
                    \_ I can't afford a 4000 sqft house in the suburbs either
                       which means I could afford about 700-900 sqft in the
                       city if I was lucky.  I've lived in that before.  No
                       thanks.  I'd rather commute 60-90 minutes.  People
                       are not rats or sardines.  By the time most people hit
                       their mid 20s, have spouses, a few kids, etc, there's
                       no way 900 sqft is cutting it.  Also, we've already
                       done the school debate and your odds of getting your
                       kids into a decent school near your home are tiny in SF.
                       \_ Wow, you tihnk 900 is small?  I grew up with a
                          family of 4 and 1200 sq ft.  900 is plenty for
                          a family of 3.  For one or two people it is close
                          to perfect.
           \_ Read "Home from Nowhere."
        \_ Even with downtown businesses, people seem to be willing to make
           the tradeoff of driving relatively far to commute there from
           \_ Only because their living situation is massively subsidized.
              \_ If you actually had to pay the real costs of everything you
                 use in life you couldn't afford to be alive.  *Everything* is
                 getting subsidized in one way or another.  Let's end all those
                 evil and nasty subsidies for everything, eh?  My taxes will
                 drop to near zero and I'll happily pay directly for any of
                 the few services I still need.  You think public transit has
                 ever even come close to paying for itself?
2006/4/4 [Recreation/Dating, Computer/Rants] UID:42661 Activity:nil 61%like:42651
        Donkeys are more loyal than wives, says textbook.  \_ I would say
        domestic housepets are even more loyal.
           \_ "You bitch!"  "Thanks for the compliment!" \_ "You give a
           beggar a meal, he only loves you while it's on his
2006/4/4 [Computer/SW/Languages/Web] UID:42662 Activity:kinda low
4/4     Help PHP MySQL experts! I installed PHP5 and Pear and tried
        /usr/bin/php mytest.php. It works, except it doesn't know where
        to find mysql_connect(...). How do you tell the command line
        how to invoke mysql commands? Thanks.
        \_ I'm the op and I did install mysql and it works under apache2. I
           figured out my problem. There are two files,
           /etc/php5/apache2/php.ini and /etc/php5/cli/php.ini.
           Pear (command line php) uses /etc/php5/cli/php.ini, in which
           I need to uncomment "" the same way I did it
           for /etc/php5/apache2/php.ini. Thanks for your help Dave!
        By the way I don't this problem when I call the same PHP via HTTP.
        \_ PEAR is just a set of written-in-PHP classes and modules; it doesn't
           provide any library functionality.  You need to install the mysql
           extension, which ships w/ PHP.  In your UNIX it may ship as a
           separate package.  --dbushong
2006/4/4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42663 Activity:kinda low
4/4     New Citroen w/ instant on/off engine:
        \_ Is that anything like Intel's viiv instant on?  :-)
2006/4/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:42664 Activity:kinda low
4/4     John McCain is apparently offering $50/hr to pick lettuce.  Where
        do I sign up?
        \_ I'm disappointed he too offers the "jobs Americans don't want".
           He lost my vote.
                \_ McCain has changed from "maverick" to "tool of Bush/hard
                   right" in record time.  Um, if you paid people $50/hour
                   to pick lettuce you would have 100X as many applicants as
                   jobs.  McCain is losing it.
                   \_ If you think McCain is "hard right" or "on the right of
                      the right wing" as someone says below you're *waaay*
                      left and/or completely uninformed.  McCain has been a
                      centrist moderate for many years.  The man is working
                      with Kennedy who can't be described as anything but far
                      left.  He's been pissing off the right since before
                      2000.  If McCain is the hard right then what about the
                      50+ other (R) Senators more right than he is?  Sheesh.
                   \_ He always has been hard right.  The one thing he had
                      going for him was his work on campaign finance.  I still
                      respect him for that.  But he's _always_ been on the
                      right of the right wing.
                      \_ His campaign 'non-reform' bill should have been
                         called the 'incumbent protection bill'.  If you
                         truly want real campaign finance reform, you should
                         be very very glad his ideas went no where.
                      \_ Not quite, he's gone from saying Jerry Falwell is
                         a lunatic to embracing Jerry Falwell.
                      \_ Not quite, he's gone from saying Jerry Falwell is
                         a lunatic to embracing Jerry Falwell.
                   \_ I think the reason they all chant that mantra is they
                      want you to think that. They don't want people to "want"
                      those jobs because then they'd have to legitimately
                      address the conditions and standards and wages of them
                      and address the illegal immigrants etc. which would
                      raise costs of the associated business interests.
                      \_ BINGO!  We have a winner!
                   \_ I'd rather make $100,000/yr ($50/hr) doing manual
                      labor outside than a soul-destroying office monkey
                      job for $30,000/yr.
                         \_ I've picked wine grapes in the fall in Paso
                            Robles (for free, I might add) and it doesn't
                            *have* to be crappy. Like any job, it can be
                            if they underpay, underhire, and are assholes
                            to boot. If you work for a good person who
                            expects a reasonable amount of work at a fair
                            wage then it's not a terrible job. Grapes are
                            not lettuce, of course. Some crops are
                            physically harder to harvest than others.
                      \- and live in the central valley? and go to work
                         at 5am? i dont think that's what i'd pick ...
                         no pun intended. why dont you take on of those
                         no pun intended. would you take one of those
                         alaskan fishing jobs. there are a reaonable number
                         \_ Picking lettuce is HARD but saying that for $50/hr
                            you still would get only illegals is totally
                            ridiculous.  Would I prefer it to office work?
                            No way! - !pp
                         of grunt jobs that make dencent money. how much
                         money to oil rig workers make?
                         money to oil rig workers make? at $50/hr i think
                         \_ $300-400/day, and you have long hours.
                         you get a lot of people doing it for a couple of
                         days to make some quick cash, but i dont think
                         you'ld necessarily get a lot of long term employees.
                         \_ I paid my way through college fishing in Alaska.
                            Not only did it pay well, and was largely fun, I
                            learned useful skills that have since helped me
                            in my technical career.  There are grunt jobs,
                            like working the slime line on a processor, but
                            being a deck hand or engineer is not a low skill
                            job by any means.  I certainly know people who've
                            worked in that industry for their whole lives,
                            although the guys who keep working on deck into
                            their 50's are usually totally nuts.  The smart ones
                            are driving their own boat by the time their 40(and
                            spending the winter in their condo in Hawaii by the
                            time they're 50.)
                            \- just out of curiousity, do you think a large
                               percentage of say 18-30 year olds would not be
                               able to do the AK FISH JOB regardless of pay,
                               e.g. they dont have the strength, endurance,
                               would be to scared etc, or do you think
                               it is mostly about willingness rather than
                         \_ You have any idea how actual poor people live and
                            work in this country?  $50/hr is more than most of
                            them will ever see no matter what happens to the
                            inflation rate.  Have you ever met a real poor
                            person?  Maybe they brought one in to your
                            sociology class once?
                            \- um, if you are talking to me, it is highly
                               likely i have vastly more experience living
                               say without running water or continual
                               electricity than you do. my point is that
                               there would certainly be many people willing
                               to do the job for 50/hr full time, but a
                               problem you would have as an employer would
                               be "weeding out" the people looking to make
                               say $2k and then quitting and then living
                               cheaply for a while. i did stuff like that
                               for a while ... bill $100/hr for say a
                               two week programming job and then live off of
                               that for a large part of the year.
                               anyway, one point is that some hourly or
                               "piece rate" jobs dont neatly turn into
                               annual salary jobs by just multiplying by
                               2000. where did this irrelevancy about
                               the inflation rate and such come in?
        \_ if he had karl rove, he would have been smart enough to say $5/hr
        \_ "McCain insisted none of them would do such menial labor for a
           complete season." For heaven's sake, my father's summer job in
           HS was picking melons in Bakersfield.
        \_ So how much will the price of lettuce be on store shelves?
           And how many would be willing to pay that price?
2006/4/4 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:42665 Activity:kinda low
4/4     Apparently this adult education teacher flunked his own class
        \_ He flunked basic common sense, but the class was not "handling
2006/4/4 [Uncategorized] UID:42666 Activity:nil
4/4     Question for Christians: when you pray, dost thou employ olde English
        as in the KJV?
2006/4/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Recreation/Music] UID:42667 Activity:nil
4/4     "Bush was Right" music video
        \_ Seven outright falsehoods, and two misattributions. But, hey, sing
           it loud enough and it _must_ be true.
        \_ I like how the guitar goes "nah-nah-nah-n-nah nah!"
2006/4/4-5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42672 Activity:kinda low
4/4     If you're going to wipe the motd, nuke it from orbit.  It's the only
        way to be sure:
                   /f=r/~_-~ _-_ --_.^-~--\=b\
                 4fF / */  .o  ._-__.__/~-. \*R\
                /fF./  . /- /' /|/|  \_  * *\ *\R\
               (iC.I+ '| - *-/00  |-  \  )  ) )|RB
               (I| (  [  / -|/^^\ |   )  /_/ | *)B
               (I(. \ `` \   \m_m_|~__/ )_ .-~ F/
                \b\\=_.\_b`-+-~x-_/ .. ,._/ , F/
                 ~\_\= =  =-*###%#x==-#  *=- =/
                    ~\**U/~  | i i | ~~~\===~          You know, we totoro
                            | I I \\                   do not appreciate this.
                           / // i\ \\
                      (   [ (( I@) )))  )                   /
                             || * |                   |\|\
                            /* /I\ *~~\               |  OO\
                          /~-/*  / \ \ ~~M~\          | /^^\|
                ____----=~ // /WVW\* \|\ ***===--___  |_m_m/
  /-------\/                 || * |                   |\|\
 / |     ||                 /* /I\ *~~\               |  OO\
*  ||W---||               /~-/*  / \ \ ~~M~\          | /^^\|
   ~~    ~~     ____----=~ // /WVW\* \|\ ***===--___  |_m_m/
   \_ Yes!!!!
2021/12/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:April:04 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>