Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:31 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2006/3/31 [Uncategorized] UID:42567 Activity:nil
        Pumpkin Ass Moonlight
        \_ nice. but out of season.
2006/3/31-4/3 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Computer/SW/Security] UID:42568 Activity:high
3/31    Anyone want to engage in wild speculation on 30th anniversary Apple
        \_ More very expensive consumer electronics toys that lock you in.
           \_ The iPod locks you in how?  Well, ITMS does but frankly, ITMS
              is lame.  (Not the implementation, the whole DRM + too damn
              much a song)
              \_ I have plans to write an application that adds some of your
                 fair use rights back in to iTunes, but does not circumvent
                 the terms of the DMCA. -dans
                 \_ That's cute dan.
                    \_ I'm not sure how to interpret this. -dans
                 \_ Ignoring the fact that you will likely be in violation
                    of the itms terms of use, how exactly do you propose to
                    go about doing this in light of the 2d cir's ruling in
                    Corely (273 F.3d 429 (2d Cir 2001)) that "fair use"
                    doesn't mean that you have a right to use in your pre-
                    fered format?
                    And if you do decide to take up the challenge, you may
                    wish to speak to Robin Gross who handled the Corley
           \_ I don't know how you can make such wild claims.
              \_ Reckless posting like this will destabilize the motd for
                 \_ I bet BUD DAY never posts recklessly!
        \_ Probably just an accident, but I find it odd that this thread from
           the middle of 3/31 was nuked while threads with fewer comments or
           responses from 3/30 and 3/29 were not.  In response to the person
           who mentioned terms of use as well as the Corley case: Actually,
           the app I plan to release is something that facilitates legal
           sharing, not format shifting.  Also, isn't there more recent case
           law that does support format and time-shifting as fair use?
           Basically, it allows you to authorize a friend's computer for your
           iTunes purchases for a limited amount of time, and then
           automatically deauthorize.  This in no way allows you to circumvent
           having more than the max (5?) machines authorized at any one time.
           I still need to look at the iTunes EULA to see if *using* this app
           violates the terms of service.  Even if it does, it's a contract
           violation, not an illegal act.  Regardless, it's definitely legal
           for me to write and distribute it since it is intended to
           facilitate legitimate, non-infringinging fair use of copyrighted
           works.  Also, I'm not 100% certain that my app is feasible, I still
           need to look into some technical odds and ends to verify this.
           Fortunately, we have many very good electronic rights lawyers in
           and around this area, Robin Gross among them, as well as Berkeley's
           own Pamela Samuelson, Lawrence Lessig, and Fred von Lohmann to name
           a few. -dans
           \_ AFAIK, most of there haven't been any recent cases of any
              significance wrt time/space shifting.
              You are probably thinking of the 9th Cir. ruling in RIAA v.
              Diamond, 180 F. 3d 1072 (9th Cir 1999). Diamond dealt w/
              what constitutes a digital audio recorder; not w/ DMCA
              violations. The DMCA wasn't at issue b/c (1) it hadn't been
              passed when the case was brought, (2) may not have taken
              effect until 2000 (Sec 1201(a)(1) 2d sentence) and (3) CDs
              don't have DRM/TPM so they are not covered under the DMCA.
              Corley was 2 yrs later (2001) and dealt w/ the DMCA directly.
              My understanding is that the Corley view that fair use doesn't
              mean you have the right to make a digital reproduction pretty
              much dominates.
              It is of some note that the USSC avoided the whole time/shape
              shifting Sony argument in Grokster. I'd personally be VERY
              hesitant to get involved in any US effort in this area (but
              then again I don't want to have to cool my heels in the
              Re production of the app, I'm not sure that your interpretation
              of Sec. 1201 is correct. You might be making a "device" whose
              primary purpose is to circumvent Apple's access control mechan-
              ism under Sec 1201(a)(2) (if one were to adopt the view of the
              unholy hordes of darkness). You might also be making a device
              whoe primary prupose is to circument a copy control mechanism
              under Sec 1201(b)(2)(A) (perhaps the RIAA could use some 100W
              bulbs in their offices so that they would not be forced to take
              so dim a view of the law).
              BTW, I took a class from Robin last summer and could probably
              put you in touch w/ her if needed "more/better" info re the
              DMCA, &c.
              \_ Oh, cool.  Thanks.  I'm fairly confident that writing and
                 releasing the app is not going to get me sued.  Of course,
                 before it comes to that, I'll almost certainly get a cease
                 and desist letter.  I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
                 I'm good friends with a former EFF staff technologist, and
                 reasonably acquainted with (one of?) the current one(s) so I
                 should have some inroads.  As I understand it the law is
                 ultimately about arguments.  So if this actually came to a
                 challenge, it would be up to a judge to determine whether or
                 not this consitutes a device who's primary purpose is
                 circumventing an access control or if this is a device who's
                 primary purpose was to facilitate contributory copyright
                 infringement.  Is that a reasonable assessment?  Thank you
                 anonymous motd legal advisor, I appreciate the insights.
                 \_ I love it when someone is more pedantic and long winded
                    on the motd.  it makes me so hot.
                    \_ wtf?  I asked a question.  I'm not a lawyer or a law
                       student.  Whoever posted the post I was responding to
                       clearly knows his/her shit.  If my understanding of
                       theory or process is flawed, I'd like to know it. -dans
                         \_ Wow, so you post an honest question addressing
                            something your ignorant about, someone gives a
                            something you're ignorant about, someone gives a
                            snarky reply...and you get all pissy about it?  I
                            remember you having a similar conversation not so
                            long ago, only with positions reversed....
                            long ago, only with positions reversed and you
                            getting very righteous about being snarky....
                            \_ My MOTD with Dans:
                               1. Sweeping comment Made by Dans.
                               2. Disagreement expressed.
                               3. Dans goes nuts and says "where are the facts"
                                  (not that he has really presented any)
                                  May remind you that he is Jewish.
                               4. You or somebody else tries to give a short
                                  reply ... Dans broadens/changes the topic ...
                                  and spends a lot of time ignorantly but
                                  occasionally entertainingly (isn't that what
                                  make it all worth it?) foaming.
                               5. You or somebody else takes the time to
                                  post a long informed reply in an area of
                                  expertise or experience.
                               6. Dans now says "I'm glad we had a civilized
                                  discussion," not realizing he has been taken
                                  to skool.
                                      \_ sic  --dans #1 Fan
                                         \- that is olde english, used by
                                            people too cool for school
                                  \_ Please support your statement with facts!!
                                        --dans #1 Fan
                            \_ Yup.  Get over it.  Hey look, I got my answer
                               below, which is all I care about! -dans
                               \_ Typical Jew.
                                  \_ This is such an obvious troll, but say
                                     that to my face some time and see what
                                     happens. -dans
                               \_ Well, at least you're honest about your
                                  \_ Your posts lack either insight or humor?
                                     Do you have a point?  If your goal is to
                                     upset me, you failed. -dans
                       \_ You are mostly in the ballpark. There is more to
                          the law than simply arguments, and judges are
                          usually limited in their application of a statute
                          to a higher ct's interpretation of that statute.
                          I am not 100% sure, but iirc the word "primarily"
                          has pretty much been read out of the Sec 1201(a)
                          (2)(A). Note also that Sec 1201(a)(1) doesn't even
                          require "primarily."
                          There are two theories of vicarious liability you
                          probably need to know about:
                          1. Contributory Infringment - You knew that users
                             were infringing and either caused or contributed
                             to the infringment.
                          2. Inducement - You knew that users were infringing,
                             you materially contributed to that infringement
                             and you encouraged them to infringe for personal
                          If you gave the software away, you probably could
                          avoid the whole Inducement issue (the Grokster
                          theory of liability), but this is still an open
                          issue. hic sunt dracones.
                          After reading the itms music license, contributory
                          infringement seems like it could be a problem for
                          you. If you look at Section 9(b) Use of Products,
                          one may not actually own the bits that constitute
                          a song purchased from itms:
                          [ This is one reason I won't buy from itms, even
                            though I drink a considerable amt of iKoolAid ]
                          \_ Cool, thanks! -dans
2006/3/31-4/1 [Computer/SW/Languages, Computer/SW] UID:42569 Activity:nil
3/31    Growing Dragons: (
2006/3/31-4/3 [Uncategorized] UID:42570 Activity:nil
3/31    Portable Washing Machine:
2006/3/31-4/1 [Science/Space] UID:42571 Activity:nil
3/31    Mars Sun Clock:
2006/3/31-4/1 [Recreation/House] UID:42572 Activity:nil 88%like:42554
3/30 (
        Cool map as the carpet
2006/3/31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42573 Activity:high 50%like:42576
3/31    Odd questions about Carroll's release:
        (From Washington Post, with citations from NY Times)
        \_ Wow, a dupe only 2 posts above the original!
2006/3/31-4/1 [Recreation/Dating, Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:42574 Activity:nil
3/31    About Internet porn and Britons
        \- "no thank you, we're british" -> "pls sir, may i have some more"
2006/3/31 [Science/Space] UID:42575 Activity:very high
3/31    Great tip on the Home Depot hard water removal shower head.  My skin
        doesn't itch anymore after a shower plus it's got the ginsu-beam
        orifice cleaner setting (great!)
        \_ Using the water filter my penis is a lot cleaner and softer
           than before. Ditto with my partner's pussy. It's amazing how
           sex is so much better with less chlorine, assuming the condom
           is not in the way. Thank you Home Depot guy!
        \_ what the hell are you talking about
        \_ Which one did you get? I got the Sprite slime-line, which claims to
           remove chlorine. I can't say I noticed dramatic differences...
           \_ I have the same thing and I notice a big difference. However,
              my sister says she notices NO difference. One thing I need to
              add though is I live in an old run down apartment where water
              comes out brown for the first 30 seconds you run the
              water, whereas she lives in a brand new housing development
              and water comes out clean instantly. So maybe that's why
              she notices no difference, I don't know.
           \_ Yes that's the one.  I do notice a difference, my skin no longer
              itches after a long hot shower - pp
           \_ These are actually sold by Ari Zilka's compnay.
              Somebody is shilling for him!
              \_ sells database persistence
                 and showerheads?
                 \_ Next time you're giving your database a shower, be sure to
                    use a filter.  Chlorine can make your database itchy.
              \_ ??? Who's Ari Zilka?
                 \_ Who is John Galt?
                    \_ I never found out. I could only bear getting halfway
                       through the book.
2006/3/31-4/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42576 Activity:low 50%like:42573
3/31    Questions About Carroll's Captivity:  (Washington Post column)
        (From Washington Post, with citations from NY Times)
        \_ Not to mention from LGF and NRO.  Fuck Howie.
           \_ The LGF quote is not exactly flattering.  I'm not sure what
              your problem is.
              \_ He's giving them a voice they don't deserve.  Yes, there are
                 questions.  It just happened.  How 'bout we find answers rather
                 than cloud the discussion with vague and stupid speculations,
                 especially from those who have decided that she's an enemy
                 of the state.  Another example of "X says world is flat.
                 Opponents disagree."  Fuck Howie.
        \_ Update: family claims video was made under duress.
2006/3/31-4/3 [Consumer/Camera] UID:42577 Activity:nil
3/31    an update on my quest to get into Medium Format for cheap.
        I end up getting a very good conditioned Yashica Mat 124G.
        I had to send into shop because flash synch circuit was out of action.
        While the camera is in the shop, I got focus-screen replaced,
        light meter adjusted to modern 1.5V battery.  I now have a fully
        functional TLR that has very bright screen, and a working meter!
        not bad for a 30 yr old camera, huh?  I am now trying to get used to
        the square aspect ratio and enjoying it :p  ok, i spend too much on
        this camera :p
        \_ How much did it cost you?
           \_ $145 for focus screen.  $135 for clean, lublicate and adjust.
              If I ever do this again, I would spend $80 to buy a broken
              camera, and spend the money to fix it, instead of spend $200
              and get a good condition camera.  I could go for an older
              model (Yashica LM) and hoping spare parts are still avaiable.
              Now, I have a relatively modern medium format camera that has
              a very bright focus screen and working meter.  Now the focus
              is taking good pictures :p
2006/3/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42578 Activity:high
3/31    "Yes, I know we have made tactical errors, thousands of them ... I
        believe strongly that it was the right strategic decision, that Saddam
        had been a threat to the international community long enough."
        - Sec State Rice (Mar 31, 2006)
        \_ "But the fact of the matter is that when we were attacked on
           September 11, we had a choice to make.  We could decide that the
           proximate cause was al-Qaeda and the people who flew those planes
           into buildings and, therefore, we would go after al-Qaeda and
           perhaps after the Taliban and then our work would be done ... Or we
           could take a bolder approach, which was to say that we had to go
           after the root causes of the kind of terrorism that was produced
           there, and that meant a different kind of Middle East. And there is
           no one who could have imagined a different kind of Middle East with
           Saddam Hussein still in power." -Sec State Rice (Oct 16, 2005)
           \_ It's a different kind of middle east these days for sure.
2006/3/31 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:42579 Activity:nil
3/31    Trollertainment of the day:
        Why is Justin White black and Justin Black white?
2006/3/31-4/1 [Transportation/Bicycle] UID:42580 Activity:nil
        Bamboo bicycle frame
        \_ Cool! Now when your bike crashes, you can impale yourself!
2006/3/31-4/1 [Recreation/Food] UID:42581 Activity:nil
        Anger Management.
2006/3/31 [Uncategorized] UID:42582 Activity:nil
3/31    Looks like it's mostly LA: - danh
2006/3/31-4/1 [Computer/SW/Compilers] UID:42583 Activity:nil
3/31    Does every C++ compiler give totally worthless error messages, or is
        it just gcc?
        \_ Wow, what a great question.  No, not even gcc error messages are
           totally worthless.
           \_ Aww, give the guy a break -- he's probably just having a really
              difficult day.
        \_ We care why?
2006/3/31-4/2 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42584 Activity:moderate
        Is it just me or it seems like the French are communists?
        \_ Socialists.  Communism is different.
           \_ Communism is a form of socialism. I say close enough.
              \_ Are your reasoning skills really this deficient?
                 ``Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism,
                   at least it's an ethos.'' -dans
              \_ Are you saying Sweden, and Norway are Communist??  are you
                 the type who prefer abolish social security, minimum wage,
                 and child labor law and let Iron Law of Wages rules?
                 \_ I am the type, but I never said, say, Sweden is
                    communist. What I said is that communism is a form
                    of socialism. France is a lot closer to communism
                    than it is capitalism.
                    \_ dimwit is a big fan of capitalism and McMansionized
                       suburbian SUV lifestyle and anything else is just
                       evil communism.
        \_ "The French have no word for entrepreneur." -gwb
        \_ We care why?
           \_ Now _that's_ funny. Thank you.
           \_ Nice urban legend.
2006/3/31-4/1 [Transportation/Bicycle] UID:42585 Activity:moderate
        Nice bike.
        \_ How useful are folding bikes?  Do they make life easier for
           \_ You can take a folding bike on BART at any time, normal bikes
              you can't take on during commute hours.  Other transit systems
              can be similar.  They're also convenient for flying.  A couple
              rode them most of the way around Tasmania on the trip I did
              there.  -tom
              \_ Do a lot of people take them on BART?  (Any commuters to SF
                 \_ There are always a few folks with bikes on BART at
                    commute hour because the drivers *very* rarely enforce
                    the rules but wow the one time one did on a standing room
                    only shoulder to shoulder train the bike guy sure was
                    pissed.  There wasn't enough space for a small child
                    much less an adult male with a non-folding bike and he
                    tried to force his way on anyway.  *Most* of the time it
                    isn't a problem even during commute hours.  (I'm talking
                    about non-folding bikes here).
                    \_ When I used to take my bike on BART, there was
                       a rule that you had to use the very last car. Is
                       that no longer true?
                       \_ It's still technically true but it was never
                          really followed anymore than the no bikes during
                          commute hours rule.  At least the drivers are
                          more likely to yell at someone to move to the last
                          car then they are to enforce the no bike hours
                          rules.  Bart sucks enough without someone's bike
                          jammed against your knee for an hour.
                          \_ It is no longer true that bikes have to use
                             the last car; they can use any car except the
                             first one.  -tom
        \_ Along the same lines:
           Though I think the military one is bigger/heavier. Personally
           I'd like one of these:
           But then again I am such a fan boi.
           \_ Does it come with an RPG or 50 cal or anything fun like that?
              Maybe some full plate side armor?  And how about a GPS and a
              medkit.  It should also have different camo for the woods,
              urban, desert and winter environments.  And space for an extra
              bike in case the first one gets destroyed by a mine or IED.  And
              cost $48,523.
        \_ We care why?
2006/3/31-4/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42586 Activity:moderate
        This is a pretty depressing article. Makes me proud to attack
        terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq.
        \_ I don't think anyone was ever ashamed to attack terrorists.  It's the
           innocent people caught in the middle that many can't stomach.
        \_ Iraq?  Are you still believe Iraq has anything to do with this?
           \_ At the time of the attack we thought Iraq had something to
              do with it and even some of the Democrats supported it. At
              any rate the attack was done out of good intentions and our
              brave Commander in Chief actually did something. Had Frenchy
              Kerry been our president he'd already given up and surrender
              to Iraq and Iran.
              \_ First of all, if he is brave, he would actually *GO* to
                 Vietnam like John Karry.  Secondly, there are evidents
                 suggesting that Bush decided to attack Iraq only weeks
                 after 9/11, when there are no evident suggesting there is
                 any link between Iraq and 9/11.  Thirdly, have you realize
                 Bush has bankrupted both our Treasury *AND* our credibility
                 around the world because of this?
                 \_ Let me just say one word. 911!
                                -libUral thinking like a conservative
              \_ he should of invade Saudi Arabia instead.  Majority of
                 hijackers are Saudis... no?
                 \_ There is no need to invade the Saudis since high ranking
                    officials are already "bought"
        \_ I don't think anyone was ever ashamed to attack terrorists.  It's
           the innocent people caught in the middle that many can't stomach.
           Is what happened to those 9/11 victims worse than men being
           mistakenly identified, hauled out of their homes to the screams of
           crying women, thrown in prison with no trial, tortured to death,
           and later found to be innocent?  9/11 was horrible.  So is what's
           happened since.
           \_ Our will to defend our way of life will never flag.
              At times there is collateral damage, but that is the price we are
              willing to have others pay for our Freedom.
              \_ Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius?
              \_ Just replace "Freedom" with "quest for the revival of the
                 Muslim Caliphate" and it works for bin Laden too!
           \_ So which innocent guys have been tortured to death? That's
              a pretty bold claim. What's the evidence?
        \_ We care why?
              \_ Welcome Time Traveller/Recent Cryogenic revivee! Google
                                                  \_ cryonic
                 "Abu Ghraib"
2006/3/31-4/3 [Computer/Networking] UID:42587 Activity:nil
3/31    Geek discovers partner of 17 years was cheating on him, by
        reconfiguring his network so everything (including wireless) would
        route through an 8-port switch and putting a notebook with Ethereal
        in the network closet on the switch
        "Right now I still find it quite difficult to concentrate enough to
        get any technical work done ..."
        \_ "Stay away from blondes, as they drop their skirts for anything,
           man, woman, or german shepherd." hahahaha
        \_ If he had just put a little effort into planning
           his network topology he would have caught her months ago.
        \_ We care why?
2006/3/31-4/3 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:42588 Activity:nil
3/31    I've seen some laptops with Dual Core AMD chips that are ridiculously
        overpowered.  I'm looking for a seller.  Where can I find one?
        \_ We care why?
2006/3/31-4/2 [Reference/Religion] UID:42589 Activity:nil
3/31    Re: prayer study. "The praying was done by members of three Christian
        groups in monasteries and elsewhere -- two Catholic and one Protestant
        -- who were given written prayers and the first name and initial of the
        last name of the prayer subjects."
        The study should be "praying for strangers doesn't work."
        \_ Yeah, God can't identify people without a full last name, and it's
           impossible to actually care for a stranger.
           \_ Child, the Lord sees through this because they were "testing"
              him. He always makes sure his doings are indistinguishable from
              non-divine expectations. You fools ask for a sign, but none will
              be given except the thing about Jesus resurrecting which
              nobody really saw but ye of little faith despair. Though if you
              had faith as small as a mustard seed you could move mountains.
              Apparently nobody on Earth has even that. God bless.
              \_ Do not be too proud of this theological terror that you've
                 constructed. -dvader
              \_ Mmm.  Meta-sarcasm.
                 \_ "Meta-Flame"
                    \_ That's an interesting concept.  A, what, quantum process
                       that consumes the chemical process of flame and turns
                       it into something else.
        \_ We care why?
2006/3/31-4/1 [Uncategorized] UID:42590 Activity:nil
3/31    What's the best way to protect a rubber seal so it doesn't crack?
        \_ This really depends on the operational environment. If you want
           a general answer - the best way is to keep it clean. 2d best way
           might be to cover it w/ Petroleum Jelly.
2006/3/31-4/3 [Computer/Rants] UID:42591 Activity:nil
3/31    Current immigration law concerning illegals: (USCIS)
2006/3/31-4/1 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:42592 Activity:moderate
3/31    "Iran Test-Fires Missile Able to Duck Radar"
        'Iran's existing ballistic rocket is called Shahab-3, which means
        "shooting star." It is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead."
        \_ We care why?
           \_ A hostile anti-American oil rich nation in control of long
              ranged evasive nuclear weapons sitting on top of a straight
              through which even more oil flows and we don't care.  I'm
              totally with you, bro!  Screw em!  Think locally, act locally!
              Back to caves and fire pits for everyone!  Woot!
              \_ why they are anti-American again?  hmmm... let see
                 how about not overthrowing their government for oil
                 for once?  how about stop labeling them "axis of evil?"
                 how about not shooting down their jet liner and give metal
                 to those who fired the missile?
              \_ I get that, it's just that I can read Yahoo news or a
                 newspaper, same as you.  Why does the motd care?
                 \_ Because the motd can't read the newspaper. :(
                    \_ No it can't it's not sentient.  But it's readers can.
                       Don't be dense.
              \_ Are you the OP?  Why didn't you write this in the first place
                 when you posted the link?
                 \_ No, I wasn't the OP. -ppp
        \_ I would say "elude" radar rather than "duck".
           It's probably a combination of radar-transparent materials
           and MIRV.  Ducking radar is more consistent with cruise missiles.
2006/3/31-4/3 [Transportation/Car] UID:42593 Activity:high
        "The actions by Delphi [largest U.S. auto-parts maker], which filed for
        Chapter 11 last October, would eliminate 20,000 hourly jobs in the
        U.S., or about 60 percent of its total work force. It will cut another
        8,500 salaried jobs worldwide."
        \_ it's about time... I just don't see how can they justify
           hourly wages that doubles average Cal graduates?
           \_ Short answer: they can't.  The unions and auto companies painted
              themselves into a corner over the last three decades.  Why do
              you think Delphi went bankrupt, cf Airline indusry. -dans
              \_ Auto industry and Airlines industry are not meaningfully
                 comparable.  This is a good example of the "dans phenomena"
                 \_ You're wrong. -dans
                 mocked below.  They both have unions, but that's a pretty
                 obvious factor. But say the role of "globalization" has a
                 different role in the two sectors.  Maybe the steel industry
                 is a better comparison, but I haven't given it that much
                 thought. Look at this this way: it is possible in a generation
                 there will be no US car makers [like there are no US TV
                 makers left, I believe], but in a generation there clearly
                 will be domestic air carriers ... all of the names in
                 existence now might exit the market, but the sector or
                 industry wont collapse.  dans: you may want to read a book
                 on Industrial Organization.
                 \_ Economists make meaningful comparisons between the two.
                    Are they wrong because they do not devote their time to
                    studying Industrial Organization? -dans
                    \_ Cite please.
              \_ FYI.  months ago, a NPR piece did a comparison by interviewing
                 an auto part worker in China and an auto parts worker in US.
                 While US worker is clearly more productive and more
                 knowledgable, the woman in China was making $2.1 / hr,
                 the guy in US was making close to $40/hr.
                 \_ I'd rather have a more expensive car that might actually
                    work and be much less likely to get me killed.  I don't
                    care who made my napkins, tshirts, or my cheapy clock radio
                    but anything that kills people should be built by someone
                    who knows what they're doing.
                    \_ What does this comment have to do with the discussion?
                       Are you implying that Chinese workers who had proper
                       training can't build quality cars? BTW, BMW has a major
                       factory in China.
                    \_ Chinese auto parts are already made its way to USA
                       so if you really want to avoid Chinese made auto parts,
                       I would recommend you look carefully when you go to
                       Pepboys.  Further, I STRONGLY you avoid Dell LCD
                       monitors, Nikon lenses, AND write a letter to AirBus
                       to stop using Chinese parts :p
        \_ You provide no context for this.  What's your point?  Why should
           we, the denizens of the motd care?  I mean, it's interesting to me,
           but I was already aware of it. (now I'm being pedantic) -dans
           \_ First they came for the Jews but I didn't care because I wasn't
              a Jew.  Then they came for the....
              \_ I am Jewish.  If you are comparing your capacity to post
                        \_ So what?  So are many others here.  That doesn't
                           grant you any special rights or powers.  If another
                           Jew made that comment does it cancel out your
                           \_ Don't be obtuse. -dans
                 drivel on the motd with the failure of German citizenry
                 in Nazi Germany to speak out about the systematic roundup and
                 extermination of the Jews, you have a ridiculously inflated
                 sense of self-importance.  I suppose you think we shouldn't
                 clean off the handiwork of taggers either? -dans
                 \_ No, I'm comparing tech geeks saying it doesn't matter if
                    blue collar people get fucked because the geeks aren't
                    blue collar.  It's an analogy and I wasn't the op but I
                    understood what they were saying without them having to
                    tediously spell it out or quote the dictionary.
                     \_ I don't see any tech geeks on this thread saying that
                        it doesn't matter if blue collar people get fucked.  I
                        see me asking the OP to provide some discussion of why
                                \_ I didn't.  Be more explicit in the future.
                                   You're very insistent on other people
                                   leaving no ambiguity in their writing.
                                   \_ So what prompted your comparison? -dans
                        s/he feels his link is interesting as opposed to just
                        quoting from the link verbatim.  Also, the comparison
                        is grossly flawed.  Comparing the firing of unionized
                                \_ It is an analogy not a direct comparison.
                                   \_ comparison was the word you used. -dans
                        workers by a bankrupt company to the systematic genocide
                        of an entire race is stretching hyperbole to the point
                        of absurdity and pretty damned tasteless.  Furthermore,
                        the blue collar vs. white collar comparison does not
                        hold water.  You might pose it as a union vs. non-union
                                \_ Please support your statement with facts.
                                   \_ Your comparison suggests that blue
                                      collar workers and white collar workers
                                      could be meaningfully mapped onto
                                      repressed ethnic/cultural groups in Nazi
                                      Germany.  Who are the blue collar
                                      workers?  Jews?  Who are the white
                                      collar workers?  The French.  This
                                      example I just gave does not make sense
                                      for a number of reasons.  Do you have
                                      one that does? -dans
                        comparison, but that makes no sense because the
                        economics of unionized industries (e.g. autos) have
                        non-trivial differences with the economics of
                        non-unionized industries (e.g. computers). -dans
                                \_ In what ways?  Why can't or shouldn't other
                                   industries be unionized?
                                   \_ I'm not suggesting they can't or
                                      shouldn't.  The reality is that the
                                      computer industry is not unionized.
                                      Market forces are dramatically curtailed
                                      in unionized industries, which leads to
                                      artificially inflated wages.  In the
                                      short term, this benefits employees,
                                      but, in the long term, it leads to
                                      problems, cf Delphi or major airlines
                                      going bankrupt because they can't
                                      negotiate salaries on an individual
                                      basis. -dans
                 \_ I guess the lesson of this and the next post is, don't post
                    news items without adding at least a tiny bit of personal
                    opinion or question for discussion purposes.
                    \_ Exactly.  We're all smart here, most of us are tech
                       geeks.  We're all capable of reading newspapers, AP
                       wires, or configuring Google News to give us
                       information about Iran, the labor market, or whatever.
                       Posting just a link and an excerpt from the link
                       clutters up the motd without adding any value. -dans
                       \_ Ditto. Let's all help out by deleting useless
                          political drivels from now on. I'll start first
                          in about an hour and you guys do the same.
                                 -someone who REALLY hates political drivels
                                 \_ Fuck you and die.  You are starting a
                                    fight you cannot win.  Several dickheads
                                    like you have tried in the past.   Some
                                    people here *really* care about having
                                    this little text file to talk about
                                    politics in, and they have more bile
                                    and free time than you can possibly imagine.
                                     \_ You underestimate the amount of free
                                        time a grad student has. Unless you're
                                        also a grad student, I wish you luck.
                                        May the best man win. -pp, drivel hater
                                        \_ It's not you against me.  It's you
                                           against several dozen people who
                                           participate in the political threads.
                                           To illustrate my point, I have not
                                           re-posted anything on today's motd,
                                           but you falsely believe I'm the guy
                                           you're fighting with.  That's becuase
                                           there are quite a few people willing
                                           to defend a free motd.  If you wanted
                                           to be surrounded by boring tech geeks
                                           who don't give a shit about politics
                                           you should have gone to caltech or
                                           MIT.  If you wanted to be surrounded
                                           by soul-less tools who never pick up
                                           a non-technical book for fun and
                                           whose lives revolve around making
                                           money, you should have gone to
                                           Stanford.  If you wanted to be
                                           surrounded by pompous coffee shop
                                           philosophy majors who can't tell
                                           you why there are seasons or how to
                                           integrate a function, you should have
                                           gone to Harvard.  This is Berkeley,
                                           \- I dont think harvard is a very
                                              intellectual place compared to
                                              say UChicago ... it is pretty
                                              careerist/opportunistic. Maybe
                                              you mean Sarah Lawrence.
                                           and that means politics + science +
                                           engineering + culture.  If you can't
                                           appreciate how great that is, than
                                           at least have the decency to fuck
                                           \_ Your tone has the opposite effect
                                              of what you're trying to
                                              accomplish. Practice harder and
                                              try again.
                                              \_ so does yours.
                          \_ Don't get me wrong, I usually don't read or
                             participate in political threads because of the
                             drivel factor.  That said, some people like those
                             threads, and we should respect them.  What I'm
                             trying to discourage is random posting of links
                             with no explanation or context for *why* the
                             poster thinks its interesting. -dans
        \_ "[M]embers of the U.A.W. are paid $27 an hour in wages, as part of
           total compensation, including pensions, health care and other
           benefits, of $78.63 an hour, according to Delphi's bankruptcy
           filing."  Is this claim accurate?  That's about $160K per year.
           \_ That sounds plausible. -dans
           \_ That's nice work if you can get it.  Shame it's not sustainable.
           \_ That's nice work if you can get it.
           \_ It's $27/hour in wages. Typically the ratio of benefits
              to wages is about 1:1 so I would say that the company was
              paying too much in benefits. Why would you pay $50/hour in
              benefits?! I bet a lot of those employees would have
              preferred no benefits and that extra $100k/year in their
              \_ You think your techie benes are cheap?  And since these
                 guys have a good chance of getting screwed out of their
                 pensions, the above numbers are artificially high.
                 \_ $50/hour pays for an awful lot of insurance.
              \_ You're wrong.  Your fully burdened cost is usually 2x your
                 salary.  However, your fully burdened cost includes costs
                 for things like rent for your work space and any equipment
                 or machinary used to support your job function.  The cost
                 of your benefits is typically 1/4 to 1/3 of your salary.
                 \_ Exactly. 1:1. 2x your salary. If you think the benefits
                    alone should be even less then you only strengthen my
                    point that $50/hour seems extremely high.
        \_ We care why?
           \_ Because some day you too might be grievously overpaid to work
           \_ Because some day you too might be grievously overpaid working
              for outrageously uncompetitive companies managed by idiots.
              \- how often does a bankruptcy judge abrogate contracts with
                 upper management?
                 \_ this is one of the reason why I am so pissed. Upper
                    management bares no responsibility for their ill deeds.
              \_ How much are you paid?  More than the autoworkers?  Why?
                 \_ Because there are not 24000 guys in the world that does
                    what I do, while there are 24000 UAW members in Delphi
                    alone.  It is also true that my contribution to the
                    company's bottom line (in revenue dollars per hour worked)
                    is much larger than my cost to the company (in totoal
                    compensation per hour worked).
2006/3/31-4/1 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Men, Health/Sleeping] UID:42594 Activity:nil
        I know this is a bit late but I'm wondering if you guys can
        help us find Jerry Tang. Thanks.
        \_ We care why?
        \_ Sorry.  All my time is spent looking for poontang.
2006/3/31-4/3 [Recreation/Media] UID:42595 Activity:nil
3/31    Awesome Ebert review of "Basic Instinct 2":
        "My 1-1/2-star rating is like a cold shower, designed to take my mind
        away from giving it four stars."
        \_ We care why?
        \_ Other than really good movies, this is the kind of unpretentious
           movies I like.  Good review.
2006/3/31-4/3 [Recreation/Humor] UID:42596 Activity:nil
        Funny Photoshop Friday since, well this one:
        (Both 90% worksafe)
        \_ My vote on this is: stupid links not worth visiting.
           What is your vote?
        \_ We care why?
        \_ This might have actually been funny on Valentine's Day.
2006/3/31-4/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42597 Activity:kinda low
3/31    Nice try but I have MORE time than you.
        \_ Shut up and eat your Freedom Fries:
        \_ you don't. see above.  you'll get a few things here and there
           but in the long run there's absolutely nothing you can do of
           any consequence.
2018/10/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:31 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>