Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:30 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ
http://csua.com/feed/
2006/3/30-31 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:42531 Activity:nil
3/30    Possibly of interest to people following earlier motd discussion of
        linux (AssOS) and freebsd for high speed packet capture.
        www8.in.tum.de/research/papers/conext05schneider-poster.pdf
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Reference/Religion] UID:42532 Activity:high
3/30    Southern Taiwanese girls are among the most self absorbed and
        money loving people I've ever met. Every time they talk, it's about
        themselves, or about money, or how they want <stick in whatever
        materialistic thing here>. The word charity is completely
        foreign to them. Anyone have similar experiences with other girls?
        \_ When you marry a S Taiwanese woman, you marry her entire family.
           You better like Oh-Ah-Jian (oyster pancake) and the food they
           eat. You better like her parents. You better like the mainland
           China bashing shows they watch and their Fox News equivalence
           (Taiwan Independence Newspaper). You'll have to live in closed
           quarters with her inlaws for an extended amount of time and cook &
           eat together. You should at minimum drive a 3 year old Lexus or
           better. The exception to this is if you're a doctor, then she'll
           do anything for you till you get married because the culture
           believes doctors are bigger than God or the President. After you
           believes doctors are bigger than Yahweh or the President. After you
           get married though, "all your bases belong to her". By that I mean
           your income, car, house, and the way you're suppose to think.
           \_ Move to some non-community property state.  Then it is just a
              personal backbone issue, not a legal issue enforced by law.
           \_ this is so funny... and has a lot of truth in it.
        \_ How is this different from libertarian geek guys whose only
           interest is consumer electronics?
           \_ Hey! Some of us give money to soda and public tv!
        \_ I am not found of Taiwanese girls in general, but your statement
                    \_ fond
           of "self absorbed and money loving people" applies to A LOT of
           people, men or women, regardless of color of skin!
        \_ There are some Taiwan girls on soda who are the exact opposite
            you describe. It is just like the other person said: stereotypes
            /generalizations are a very bad road to go down.

        \_ My gf is from Chiayi, and she ain't bad.  We are Christians
           so she gives 10% to church.  She is generous to others, but
           too thrifty herself (not as fun in terms of enjoying life).
           She says Taiwanese show their love using money, so there
           may be some truth in what you are saying.
           \_ Interesting. So what do YOU think? Or does she think for you?
              \_ She tried, but I ain't no pushover.
              \_ She tried, but I ain't no pushover.  What do I think
                 about Southern Taiwanese girls in general?  I don't
                 know enough of them to conclude.  I have quite a few
                 cousinettes spread over the island, but I haven't spent
                 much time there so I don't know them well.  I do know
                 Southern Taiwanese guys don't do much housework, the prime
                 example being my dad, but then, maybe that's because
                 he's the only boy in his family and he had 5 sisters.
           \_ i love this logic: she is a Christians and give money
              to church she attends to, which makes her a much superior
              human being.
              \_ I am just responding to "The word charity is completely
                 foreign to them".  Why is it that I can't mention
                 Christianity without being attacked?
           \_ If you were _good_ Christians you'd give everything away... but
              I guess that's a part of the Bible it's no fun to follow.
              \_ Commandments to specific people may not be applicable in the
                 general case.
                 \_ especially when it's inconvenient.  -tom
                 \_ especially when they're inconvenient.  -tom
              \_ I am not a good Christian.  Giving has little to do
              \_ Giving has little to do
                 with "fun to follow" or not, and more to do with your
                 faith in the Lord, and the Lord's calling.  Are
                 Christians required to give away everything.  No.  Do
                 some Christians give away everything?  Yes.  Giving
                 should also be joyous!
                 \_ You say that as if it's clearly stated thus in the Bible.
                    It's not.  It's _your_ clear understanding of a book that
                    can (and is) interpreted absolutely any way people want.
                    I can extol the virtues incest, slavery, rape, revenge,
                    misogyny, just about any horrid thing you like using only
                    actions that are endorsed by God at some point in the Bible.
                    You might as well use the dictionary as your holy book.
                    actions that are endorsed by God at some point in the
                    Bible. You might as well use the dictionary as your holy
                    book.
                    \_ You are right that people can interpret things in
                       different ways, but that doesn't mean some of them
                       are not wrong.  Even in the bible itself,
                       you have Satan and the Pharisees interpreting the bible
                       one way, and Jesus "interpreting" it a different way.
                       \_ But we can't know which interpretation is right.
                          It is basically useless. It's one thing to have
                          Yahweh/Yashua him/themselves clarifying stuff
                          (albeit in a cryptic, impatient, and irritated
                          fashion... what is up with that anyway, it's
                          his/their own damn fault people get it wrong)
                          or to have the literal voice of God or supposed
                          deputies (why do the old testament people blindly
                          accept that some being is an "angel of the Lord"
                          anyway? It's not like they have any kind of
                          authentication or digital signing of divine
                          communications). But no, in all of modern times
                          these fantastical communications, on which all
                          of the religion is ultimately supposed to have
                          been founded, are completely absent. Basically
                          if Yahweh gave a shit what you think he'd say
                          something. If Yahweh existed he would say something,
                          according to the character laid out in the Bible
                          itself. Reality does not bear it out.
        \_ In what context are you meeting them? What's their socio-
           economic background? Are they recent immigrants or 2nd or 3rd
           gen Americans? Also, what's your sample size? Anecdotes are
           amusing but statistically irrelevant.
           \_ in the context of being one and being with them for many
              decades, and the sample size is slightly less than 100
              \_ You're a Southern Taiwanese girl? Are you as materialistic
                 as you make them out to be?
                        \_ I wonder what his opinion of Northern ones are.

        \_ post pics please!
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42533 Activity:moderate
3/29    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189402,00.html
        "Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't
         an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American
         flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the
         English language."             -Roosevelt
        \_ Yes, we know, they're all horrible people.  The ones in the pics
           below are pretty disagreeable.  Now please stop with the fucking
           freeper spam, please.  -John
        \_ just levy 100,000 of fine + 1 yr of jail time per violation to
           those who employ illegal immigrants.  Once those people discover
           they can't find work here, they won't bother to risk their lives to
           come to USA.
           \_ Who would that benefit?  -tom
              \_ cut down the illegal immigration will benefit us all.
                 when I say that, I mean price for food, housing and
                 child care will finally refelct the "true" market value, which
                 I suspect many of people won't able to bear on their own.
                 When people discover that price of food and construction and
                 child care suddenly risen by 40%, then, invading another
                 country for WMD half way across the world may become a
                 secondary concern.     kngharv
                 \_ Woo.  So you are saying that Americans would be better off
                    if many people can't afford the price of food, housing,
                    and child care?  And that the Iraq war was caused by
                    illegal aliens?  Put your analyst on danger money.  -tom
           \_ Better yet, enforce the laws we now have.
              \_ What laws?
        \_ See? How quick that article trots out the "jobs Americans won't do".
           Stupid fucking bitch. (Actually, the article also uses "American's".
           And this is supposed to be a professional publication?)
        \_ just levy 100,000 of fine + 1 yr of jail time per violation to
           those who employ illegal immigrants.  Once those people discover
           they can't find work here, they won't bother to risk their lives to
           come to USA.
           \_ Better yet, enforce the laws we now have.
        \_ I like how the article's immediately followed by "Paris is Burning"
           Gee... why's that?  Could it be... the exact sort of guest worker
           program that's being championed?
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42534 Activity:kinda low
3/29    Pictures of Angry Mexicans:
        link:tinyurl.com/gahoh
        link:tinyurl.com/k9rn5
        link:tinyurl.com/e6aqs
        \_ Maybe the guy with the "indigenous people" sign should have
           checked with all those Indians first.  -John
           \_ Er, Mexicans are just as indigenous as the Indians here.
              (There are Spanish immigrants in Mexico too, but it's not
              like here where the immigrants pretty much replaced the
              local population.  It's easy to tell the difference: Spanish
              people are tall, white, and European-looking.  Mexicans are
              shorter, darker, and not.)
              \_ They're not all white and Euro-looking. Lots of swarthier
                 ones from their time with the Moors.
              \_ That's funny, the last time I was in the middle of the
                 Yucatan, the people there didn't look much like any of my
                 Mexican friends from college/HS, or the Mexican guys
                 from DF I work with now.  Maybe they changed them or
                 something.  -John
                 \_ Spanish descent.  Gringo v. Indio.  Round MMCCXVII.  FIGHT!
              \_ I'm sure the Mexicans you know would say that.  The Indians
                 would have something entirely different to say.  If the
                 Mexicans are indigenous then so are all the white people
                 in the US.
                 \_ I don't know man, the Spanish seems to have breeded
                    extensively with the Indians under their rule.  Whereas,
                    in north america, Indians were mostly just sent to
                    reservations.  While Mexicans don't look the same as
                    Indians, they look different from whites too.  They
                    are mixed.
                    \_ The CIA World Factbook agrees: they list Mexico as
                       "mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or
                       predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%".
                       You're right, though, I shouldn't have said they
                       were "just as indigenous as the Indians".
              \_ I don't know, isn't a mexican claiming to be indigenous to
                 California by virtue of being indigenous to Mexico kinda like
                 a Chinese guy claiming to be indigenous to France?
                 \_ Is an idiot still an idiot if they can't recognize
                    their idiocy?
                 \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
        \_ At least they finally figured out that they should be waving US
           flags, no Mexican flags.
           \_ Must've run out of Mexican flags.  Next shipment arrives next
              week from HK.
2006/3/30-31 [Reference/Law/Visa, Finance/Investment, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42535 Activity:nil
3/29    http://weneedafence.com
        I personally don't care about the immigration issue but I'd like
        to buy stocks in companies that make fences. What are some
        companies I should look into?
2006/3/30-31 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Women] UID:42536 Activity:nil
3/29    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189547,00.html
        (second story) Spend your life inside Walmart!
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Recreation/Humor] UID:42537 Activity:nil
3/29    Isn't it funny that many hispanics decided to switch and vote for
        the GOP and now the GOP is dissing them?
        \_ Because all hispanics are in favor of open borders by virtue
           of their ethnicity?  Isn't it funny how many people can hold
           incredibly racist beliefs and not even see it while at the
           same time pointing the same fat finger at others?
2006/3/30 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42538 Activity:nil 75%like:42551
3/29    Woman gets a ticket for having a W BUSH bumper sticker:
        http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/0328metsticker.html
2006/3/30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42539 Activity:nil
3/29    http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1605932/posts
        Mexican takeover
2006/3/30-31 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:42540 Activity:nil
3/29    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189525,00.html
        Hooters Air to stop flying, mostly.
        \_ I misread the the headline as "Drooping"...
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Recreation/Travel] UID:42541 Activity:nil
3/29    http://www.skylofts.com/html/news.html
        Los Angeles to have its own Times Square
2006/3/30-4/2 [Recreation/Dating] UID:42542 Activity:nil
3/30    MOTD boob guy journeyman apprentice says USA! USA! USA!
        http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4346/1160/1600/boazona9ax.jpg
        \_ Oven stuffer.
        \_ Check out those bombs!
        \_ This is the only useful post in the whole motd.  -ax
                \_ Useful for about 10 minutes, might be useful again in a few
                   hours.
        \_ A bombshell on top of a bombshell.
        \_ Girl is cute, boobs are too big, but wtf is she sitting on a shell?
           \_ Girl is cute, boobs are too big, but wtf is she sitting on a
              shell?
              \_ "Boobs are too big". I'm sure she hears that a lot.
                 \_ "honey, I would fuck you three different ways on two
                    different days, but...well...your boobs are just too big
                    so you're going to have to leave."  Riiiiiiight.
2006/3/30-31 [Transportation/PublicTransit, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:42543 Activity:low
3/30    Does anyone have technical details of why BART's computer system is
        fucked up?  They installed a 'software upgrade'  what software?
        They 'switched to a backup system' but that failed.  Who is their
        primary IT consultant?
        \_ I bet BART is running a crazy ass minicomputer or mainframe
           from the early 80s.
           \_ Over the weekend, I saw a BART ticket machine reboot into Win2k.
              It was running on a Celeron 300A, I think 256MB RAM.
                \_ I doubt BART runs their system from the ticket machines.
                   \_ I doubt the navy runs nuclear subs on windows. oh wait...
                        \_ Faith-based IT (subs)! No, I didn't mean to imply
                           that BART uses anything sane to run their back-end,
                           just that whatever the ticketing machines are
                           running is unlikely to reflect what they are running
                           elsewhere.
        \_ General Railway Signal
           http://www.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de/dagstuhl
           http://groups.google.com/group/ba.transportation/browse_frm/thread/a70e26cedf2b8c17/a244742ac0b80044%23a244742ac0b80044
           http://tinyurl.com/prsem (groups.google.com)
           \_ Thanks, that's pretty interesting.
2006/3/30-31 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:42544 Activity:nil
3/29    All freeper links not marked as such deleted.
2006/3/30-31 [Reference/Religion] UID:42545 Activity:high
3/30    Study: Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients: http://csua.org/u/fdi
        So does this mean Yahweh ignores prayers to ensure that there's no solid
        proof of His existence?  What does Occam's Razor say about this?
        \_ Hello I'm George W Bush and I do not approve this message.
        \_ What would alarm me if I were Christian is the fact that the new
           pope claimed that he prayed to God that he not be selected pope.
           If God doesn't listen to the pope's prayers, why would he listen
           pope claimed that he prayed to Yahweh that he not be selected pope.
           If Yahweh doesn't listen to the pope's prayers, why would he listen
           to anyone else's?
           \_ Jesus asked God to take away the cup (not be crucified) from
              Him but also prayed to do God's will. God didnt save him from
              being sacrificed. God didn't answer his prayer but in a way
              he answered the part to do God's will.
        \_ The whole "God" thing is a big scam.  People just don't want to
           \_ Jesus asked Yahweh to take away the cup (not be crucified) from
              Him but also prayed to do Yahweh's will. Yahweh didnt save him from
              being sacrificed. Yahweh didn't answer his prayer but in a way
              he answered the part to do Yahweh's will.
        \_ The whole "Yahweh" thing is a big scam.  People just don't want to
           admit that they were suckers.
           "Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
            by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." -- Seneca
        \_ Ever seen the Jimmy Stwart movie Harvey? What's the difference
           between Harvey (the 6ft tall rabbit that only Jimmy Stewart's
           character can see) and Jesus? Not a whole heck of alot if you ask me
           \_ The difference is that Jesus is a histocial figure who is
              reported to have made miracles happen.  Harvey is a movie
              character.  The only question is do you believe the historical
              reports or not?  If not, then you need to come up with a reason
              those reports exist in the first place.  If so, then it is a
              question of 'how did he do it?'  If it was Divine then case
              closed.  The Divine can not be measured since it doesn't have
              to follow the laws of physics, science, etc and is assumed to
              have self-will and the power to change reality.  If it was some
              sort of super science, hypnotism, mass halucination, etc, then
              how that came about needs to be explained.  I'm an atheist but
              I have no issues with Christians or other religious types.  Their
              business is theirs and mine is mine.  The rare few who made the
              mistake of trying to convert me found themselves trying to answer
              unanswerable questions.  Most are more polite than that.  I find
              the faith-based atheists who are really more "anti-christians"
              than true thought derived atheists to be far more obnoxious and
              hateful than any Christians or other religious types.  The key
              to all of this is that no matter what you decide for yourself,
              you still can't prove or disprove the existence of God through
              you still can't prove or disprove the existence of Yahweh through
              the scientific method or through pure faith.  You can only make
              a rude ass of yourself.  If everyone was simply nicer to each
              other the world would be a better place.  So go back and ask
              yourself again the difference between a ficticious Hollywood
              character and a historical figure who is reported to have done
              things we can't explain 2000 years later.
              \_ What "reports"? there is only the bible's own word for it.
                 \_ The bible has made mention of the locations of places once
                    thought mythical that were found later by archaeologists.
                    It is not so easily dismissed with a hand wave.  There is
                    truth in the bible.  I'm sure there's also lies, and
                    misunderstanding and misinterpretation as well.  It was
                    2000 years ago and has to be understood in that context.
                    The problem is not whether or not the bible is fairy tale
                    or truth, but how much of each and to what degree for
                    everything in it.  --atheist
                    \_ Examples? I know it mentions places that exist and
                       events that happened, substantiated by evidence or
                       other sources. That has zero to do with the miracles.
                       \_ It says you can't outright dismiss the whole thing
                          as fairy tales.  It raises the question that if it
                          got some things right we thought were false, then
                          what is the explanation for the rest?  I already
                          said, it could be anything  from outright lies to
                          the Divine, alien super science or simply stories
                          not originally intended to be taken literally.
                          \_ The Bible is set in real-world locations and
                             real-world times. That doesn't lend credibility
                             to the mythology any more than the doings of Zeus
                             and friends in the Iliad just because of new
                             archaelogical information about Troy and Mycenae.
                             Did the River Xanthus rise up against Achilles
                             after he single-handedly choked it up with bodies
                             of Trojans? Did Aeneas get whisked away magically
                             by the Gods to escape death? Thousands of troops
                             must have seen this stuff so it must be real.
              \_ The difference between Harvey and Jesus is that Harvey's
                 existance isn't detailed in a book riddled with
                 inconsistencies and totally inexplicable nonsense.
                 \_ Yes, this is exactly the sort of faith-based atheism
                    I was talking about.
                        \_ Except I'm not an atheist. -- pp
                           \_ So Christianity is a competing religion then?
                              What do you believe in?
                                \_ I'm agnostic.  I don't see a problem in
                                   believing in a God or not, but the more
                                   believing in a Yahweh or not, but the more
                                   I read the bible the more I'm convinced
                                   you have to be basically insane to believe
                                   the majority of it.  And saying "well don't
                                   interpret it literally" is stupid.  You're
                                   basing your entire belief system on what
                                   is written in this old book, if you had a
                                   physics book that contained 60% stuff that
                                   didn't reflect reality, would you believe
                                   any of it?
                                   \_ Grr, this is annoying.  Someone rolled
                                      back the motd.  Anyone, my previous
                                      answer is the same: I would neither
                                      outright accept nor dismiss the other
                                      40%, which is all I'm saying about the
                                      bible.
                                        \_ I'm sure there are some pearls of
                                           wisdom buried in "Mein Kampf" too,
                                           but I wouldn't base my belief system
                                           on that book either.
                   \_ How is saying the the Bible is riddled with
                      inconsistencies and inexplicable nonsense "faith-based
                      atheism"?  If you're _actually_ an atheist and not just
                      using it as an arguing point, then you know for yourself
                      that there are any number of examples to support both
                      of those claims.
                      \_ Because you don't *know* which claims are true or
                         false and to what degree so dismissing all of them
                         and then being openly hostile and aggressive towards
                         those who believe there might be something to it is
                         no better than the people who blindly accept all of
                         it as literal truth and push it on you.
                         \_ Of course we know which claims are false, assuming
                            you believe in fact-based reality.  Earth is 10,000
                            years old? Obviously false.  Noah's ark? Totally
                            impossible nonsense.  A star falling into the
                            ocean? Can't happen either.
        \_ I hate it when politicians make policy decisions based on
           a book that was first probably oral tradition, who knows
           who the heck came up with it, then written in Aramaic, then
           some parts in Greek, throw some Hebrew and Latin in,
           and along we come along and translate it into the King's
           English, and then dumbasses say "IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE,
           SO IT IS WRITTEN".
           \_ I wouldn't out right dismiss all of it
              but I wouldn't blindly accept it either
              which is all I'm saying about the bible.
              \_ [ this was originally in response to something totally
                   different.  it'd be nice if people were more careful
                   with their edits ]
           \_ Exactly.  This is why now is not the right time to be a "just
              leave them be" atheist.  People are electing leaders not on the
              basis of qualifications, but because of their fanatastical
              beliefs.  Our nation is unwilling to find Muslim ethics wanting
              because they're based on faith and holy books.  It's impossible
              to have factual, logical, intelligent debates about many topics
              related to medical ethics because of religious assertions that
              CANNOT be refuted with fact, because fact is irrelevant to the
              discussion.  These are serious problems with being a "they're
              not hurting anyone with their beliefs" atheist.
              \_ People have always elected leaders, in part, based on their
                 religion.  They said Kennedy would never get elected because
                 he was Catholic.  Yet... somehow he did.  Have more _faith_
                 in people (heh).  And careful siding too closely with so
                 called medical ethics professionals.  Some of them have
                 made some really outlandish statements by anyone's measure.
                 \_ Who said I was siding with "ethics professionals"  I said
                    we couldn't have intelligent debate because it's FORBIDDEN
                    to question blind faith!  You can argue logical points in
                    a scientific manner, and perform tests to aquire better
                    supporting facts, but in a culture where "my religion says
                    X" completely ends all possibility of debate, something is
                    WRONG.
       \_ Study is flawed. The patients didn't pray hard enough.   -jesus
        \_ "Do not tempt the Lord your God" .. split into 3 groups?
        \_ "Do not tempt God" .. split into 3 groups?
        \_ "Do not tempt Yahweh" .. split into 3 groups?
            sounds unauthentic
           \_ Huh?
            \_ Where does it say that?
                \_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test the Lord your God"
                \_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test God"
                   \_ Why the frack not?
        \_ God does answers prayers.  Sometimes the answer is no.  A chant
                \_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test Yahweh"
        \_ Yahweh does answers prayers.  Sometimes the answer is no.  A chant
           leading to a result is magic, not Christianity.
           \_ No he doesn't. What do you base that on? Give me one example
              of a prayer having been answered.
              \_ All my life I have been an athiest, but a few years ago I
                 got so tired of shitting in the stall next to this really
                 annoying guy I used to work with that I started to pray to
                 the shit gods that he not have to shit at the same time as I
                 did.  Well, he stopped shitting at the same time and my
                 prayers were answered.  So now I believe in the shit god.
              \_ My cs170 final, for starters....
                 \_ As long as there are exams, prayer in schools will never
                    be eradicated.
              \_ I've had prayers clearly answered.  Sometimes the answer was
                 no.  Sometimes the answer has what I expected, and sometimes
                 wasn't.  It very much depends on the individual and the
                 circumstances.  Which is why it could never be reliably
                 studied by the scientific method IMO. -emarkp
                 \_ "Sometimes, when I cross myself before I take a free
                    throw, my prayer is answered and I make it.  Sometimes
                    the answer is no and I miss it.  Sometimes I miss it
                    but get the rebound and get two points.  It very much
                    depends on the individual and the circumstances."
                    Complete cop-out.  If there is any real effect to
                    prayer, that effect is measurable by scientific
                    methods.  -tom
                    \_ I'm glad you have so much faith in the scientific
                       method.  I don't a tool to this level of worship
                       however.  If a phenomenon is inherently subjective, it
                       can't be tested by science, which doesn't make it false,
                       it simply can't be admitted into scientific theory.
                       \_ If prayers can be answered, the phenomenon is not
                          "inherently subjective."  What is subjective is
                          someone's *belief* that their prayer was answered.
                          It is certainly the case that people believe
                          all kinds of stuff with no evidence other than
                          their own subjective feelings.  -tom
                          \_ You seem to think "answering prayer" means
                             "granting a request".  It doesn't. -emarkp
                             \_ You seem to think that what goes on inside
                                your head when you pray has some relation
                                to external reality.  It doesn't.  -tom
                                \_ Thoughts have no relation to external
                                   reality? That's a pretty impressive
                                   assertion tom. -emarkp
                                   \_ Why? Is there some difficulty with
                                      asserting that, and if so what?
                                      \_ Well, there is that whole
                                         observer problem.
                                        \_ Alright, I suppose it is a poor
                                           way to phrase it. Nevertheless, in
                                           context we are talking about
                                           assigning religious meaning to
                                           someone's thoughts. This starts to
                                           smack of schizophrenia.
                                           \_ Where'd you get your license to
                                              practice psychiatry?  Do you even
                                              know what schizophrenia is?
                                              \_ Yes. But if it makes you feel
                                                 better, substitute "psychosis"
                                                 so we don't have to argue the
                                                 details.
                  \_ No you haven't. You've prayed for something, and it
                     happened, or it didn't. It would have happened regardless.
                     \_ With all due respect (i.e. none) I'm a better authority
                        on my own experience than you are. -emarkp
                        \_ No, you're not. Because you filter everything that
                           you experience through your warped sense of reality.
                           I bet you consider feelings experienced in your mind
                           as divine contact.
                           \_ Why is "my" sense of reality warped Mr. Anonymous
                              Troll? -emarkp
                              \_ Is Jesus your Friend?
                              \_ That's my judgement of those who do what I say
                                 in my last sentence.
                                 \_ Judge not lest ye be judged!  (heh, sorry,
                                    someone had to say it).
                              \_ Everyone's sense of reality is warped. No one
                                 experiences the world as it really is b/c the
                                 brain/mind is constantly filtering and inter-
                                 preting the inputs from our senses and trying
                                 to form predictive patterns.
                                 If you have all these notions of external
                                 powers stuck in your head, you end up using
                                 those notions to evaluate your experiences,
                                 rather than assessing them objectively.
                                 In the end, it is all just a bunch of neuro-
                                 transmitters flowing between neurons.
                     The real trick is to try praying for something that
                     really couldn't happen without a prayer. You'll find those
                     will never ever be "answered".
                     Well, I guess one area where religious people get points
                     is with other religious people. For example, being
                     religious is a prerequisite to get with some religious
                     girls. So, if you really like a religious girl and
                     pray and stuff then there's a much better chance of
                     getting with her than if you didn't. That much is
                     probably scientifically provable :)
           \_ An effect indistinguishable from random chance either:
              a) doesn't exist
              b) is irrelevant
              Which is it?
              \_ what part of do "not test the Lord" do you not understand?
                 \_ The part where "the Lord" exists, maybe?
              \_ what part of do "not test God" do you not understand?
                 \_ The part where "God" exists, maybe?
              \_ what part of do "not test Yahweh" do you not understand?
                 \_ The part where "Yahweh" exists, maybe?
                 \_ I understand cop-outs perfectly well.  In fact, that's
                    the same cop-out psychics use.  -tom
                    \_ Have you ever read The Men Who Stare at Goats?
                 \_ It's still indistinguishable from the case where there
                    is no God and no prayers being answered. You can call
                    is no Yahweh and no prayers being answered. You can call
                    that a test if you want. -!pp
        \_ Actually, it probably means that God's install of Spam Assassin
        \_ Actually, it probably means that Yahweh's install of Spam Assassin
           is working (given he's had billions of yrs, or at least 6K yrs,
           to train it, I'm not surprised).
           Of course, this presupposes that the Universe is real and
           separate from God.
           Of course, this presupposes that the Universe is real and separate
           from God.
           from Yahweh.
           \_ Thank you, Bishop Berkeley.
        \_ How Jesus taught us to pray:
           Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be thy Name
           Thy kingdom come.  Thy will be done,
           on earth, as it is in heaven
           Give us this day our daily bread
           Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debters
           And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
           For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever.
           Amen.
        \_ Prayers are not just the asking of things.  A prayer is a dialogue
           with the Lord, through which we build a closer relationship with
           him.  It could be like a child talking to her father, or a friend
           talking to a friend.  God listens to the righteous, and reveals
           talking to a friend.  Yahweh listens to the righteous, and reveals
           himself to those who seek him.  He hears those who cry out to him.

           "Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him,
            "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
            He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a
            miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of
            the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three
            nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
            three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

           Some relevant verses:
           Matthew 12:38-42
           Matthew 13:58
           Isaiah 58:9 (read the whole of 58)
           \_ This debate is not about prayer-as-conversation.  It is directly
              about the much vaunted "power of prayer" to DO things.  Talking
              to a parent does not effect physical change unless the parent
              DOES something.  If they DO, it's measurable.  Look, either God
              DOES something.  If they DO, it's measurable.  Look, either Yahweh
              can be cajoled into doing things or He can't.  If He can't, then
              everything happens according to His Plan and there is no free
              will.  If he can, then prayer is certainly making a request, no
              matter how many "be it your will..." and "if it pleases you..."
              clauses you add to your request.
              \_ Essentially, what you want is to be shown a miracle.  And
                 I've already pointed out above as to why you won't see one.
                 Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean prayers aren't
                 answered.
                 \_ Which is why, again? Can you articulate it in simple terms?
                    (Also, isn't it noteworthy that in the Bible, first God and
                    (Also, isn't it noteworthy that in the Bible, first Yahweh and
                    then Jesus gains followers by the use of direct miracles?
                    c.f. Jesus walking on water blah blah resurrecting, c.f.
                    burning bushes and clouds and booming heavenly voices.
                    \_ You know about the miracles, so why are you asking
                       for more?  God is sovereign.  He is not obligated to
                       \_ The point is I know what miracles it SAYS happened,
                          and by the Bible's own internal logic it's reasonable
                          to expect some sort of proof, but I don't actually
                          have any personal evidence nor do I believe the
                          unsubstantiated reports in the Bible.
                          \_ If you want personal evidence, why don't you
                             start praying and seeking him then.
                          \_ If you want personal evidence, you can start
                             praying and seeking him.
                             \_ So in your world, you have to first believe
                                in it before you can get evidence for it.
                                No, that is insane. And I've never talked to
                                anyone who actually had personal evidence.
                                Why don't you describe yours hmm?
                                \_ Praying and seeking doesn't mean belief.
                                   If you want witnesses, there are plenty
                                   of books and video documentaries with
                                   testimonies, or you can find a church.
                                   Another way would be to follow Isaiah 58,
                                   and do what is righteous, or follow
                                   what Jesus teaches.
                       for more?  Yahweh is sovereign.  He is not obligated to
                       perform any miracle, or 5 miracles per century.  He
                       is not obligated to perform any miracle to prove his
                       existence to you.  And what seperates us from him is
                       our sin; it is not the lack of or abundance of miracles.
                       The people who saw Jesus performed miracles, also nailed
                       him to the cross.
                       p.s. Read the book of Esther.  Did God perform any
                       p.s. Read the book of Esther.  Did Yahweh perform any
                       miracles in the events in Esther?
                       \_ The point is I know what miracles it SAYS happened,
                          and by the Bible's own internal logic it's reasonable
                          to expect some sort of proof, but I don't actually
                          have any personal evidence nor do I believe the
                          unsubstantiated reports in the Bible.
                          \_ If you want personal evidence, you can start
                             praying and seeking him.
                             \_ So in your world, you have to first believe
                                in it before you can get evidence for it.
                                No, that is insane. And I've never talked to
                                anyone who actually had personal evidence.
                                Why don't you describe yours hmm?
                                \_ Praying and seeking doesn't mean belief.
                                   If you want witnesses, there are plenty
                                   of books and video documentaries with
                                   testimonies, or you can find a church.
                                   Another way would be to follow Isaiah 58,
                                   and do what is righteous, or follow
                                   what Jesus teaches.
                                   \_ Praying is communicating with something
                                      I believe doesn't exist and doesn't
                                      answer... I call that insanity.
                                      The testimonies are worthless for
                                      one reason or another (name one and
                                      I'll tell you why). You also haven't
                                      answered my last question.
                                      \_ Try the other way then - i.e. Doing
                                         what is righteous.  That's the
                                         harder way, but it leads to a
                                         stronger faith.
                                         \_ But that's the point. Determining
                                            what is righteous is something
                                            we can discuss rationally.
                                            (and besides, nobody agrees on
                                            what the religions really say
                                            is righteous.)
                                            Baseless faith is dumb. I have
                                            a certain faith in family and
                                            friends because I know them from
                                            past experience. I also have a
                                            more limited faith in other
                                            fellow humans, based on my
                                            dealings with them in general.
                                            I have no faith in Yahweh.
                                            \_ Yes, we have faith in
                                               God for we experienced him,
                                               and he is faithful, and
                                               good, and just, and his love
                                               endures.
                                               \_ If you "experienced" Yahweh,
                                                  then you don't need faith.
                                                  Which is it? (and, what was
                                                  the nature of this experience?
                                                  the nature of this
                                                  experience?
                                                  \_ When you say you have
                                                     faith in someone, what
                                                     does it mean?
                                                     \_ It is belief; belief
                                                        that they can be relied
                                                        on in certain ways. In
                                                        the case of Yahweh, I
                                                        guess it is about belief
                                                        that what is said about
                                                        him is true (bible), but
                                                        mainly for me the truth
                                                        "how he is" is pretty
                                                        much irrelevant, what
                                                        guess it is about
                                                        belief that what is
                                                        said about him is true
                                                        (bible), but mainly for
                                                        me the truth "how he
                                                        is" is pretty much
                                                        irrelevant, what
                                                        matters is if he exists
                                                        in the first place. If
                                                        you "experienced" him
                                                        then you must not have
                                                        such doubts, non?
                                         why are you averse to my _/
                                         calling it that? It helps to
                                         distinguish the Judeo-Christian
                                         God from other possible
                                         conceptions, which may be
                                         far more interesting.
                                            \_ Yes, we have faith in
                                               God for we experienced him,
                                               and he is faithful, and
                                               good, and just, and his love
                                               endures.
                                               endures forever.
                                         \_ feel free to use Yahweh,
                                            just don't change God
                                            to Yahweh for what other
                                            people wrote.  Someone
                                            was doing that.
                                         \_ YASHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUA!
        \_ I find your lack of faith disturbing. -dvader
           \_ "The force bugs are strong within him".
2006/3/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42546 Activity:nil 93%like:42552
3/30    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060330/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_carroll_released
        Carroll freed in Iraq!!! HAPPY NEWS finally.
        \_ I bet the Freepers think this is bad news.
           \_ Pretty much:
              http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1606219/posts
              My favorite is "does she look Arab to you?"
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:42547 Activity:moderate
3/30    Welcome to the government-mandated gas shortage.  Get ready for $3/gal
        and more:
        http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2006/2006-03-29-10.asp
        \_ "We need to put oil companies on notice that they cannot use MTBE
           as another excuse to boost up oil prices," yeah, we all know that
           artificially restricting supply never causes a price increase!
           \_ I love how a senator complains that forcing the gas companies to
              switch their ingredients is the gas companies' fault.
        \_ you do know MTBE pollutes water and has no significant benefit,
           right?
           \_ No significant benefit to _you_.  Lots of benefits to the chums
              of the politicians legislating it.
           \_ Yes, but congress also is forcing them to replace MTBE with
              ethanol (rather than simply removing it) and ethanol producers
              simply can't supply the demand.
              \_ Oil companies finally figured out a way to get rid of a
                   byproduct (MTBE) by adding it to gasoline.  Too bad it's
                   a pollutant!
                 byproduct (MTBE) by adding it to gasoline.  Too bad it's a
                 pollutant!
                 \_ Congress also mandated MTBE in the first place.
                        \_ Who runs Congress? Noo, the answer is not "the
                           Congresscritters", try again.
              \_ that is a different story.  while adding ethanol make sense
                 in corn-producing countries such as Iowa, transporting them
                 from midwest to California so it can be added doesn't make
                 any economic sense.  Thanks to powerful corn producing
                 countries... btw, this is also the reason why we don't see
                 any frutose (liquid sugar that is only half of calories) at
                 starbuck... god damn it.
                 \_ Umm, all sugar is going to be the same number of calories.
                    Carbs is carbs.
                 \_ Do you mean frutose or fructose?  If it's the latter, are
                    you talking about high fructose corn syrup, which, to my
                    knowledge, is terrible for you, or is there some just
                    plain fructose liquid sugar that is less bad? -dans
                    \_ sugaarrr... mmmmm....
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42548 Activity:nil
3/30    George Will on immigration:
        http://tinyurl.com/kfm3o
        I agree with most of what he says.  I was hating on George Will for a
        long time after he wrote that we should pave over Alaska just because
        he found environmentalists annoying.
        \_ I basically agree with that.  Immigration needs to be controlled,
           but making illegal entry a felony is not helpful.  We also need to
           improve the system to make it as easy as possible for people we do
           want.  (And we need to be honest about what that means.) -jrleek
        \_ I think Will's dodging the painful truth (that we need to provide
           an economic disincentive to illegally hiring illegal workers) in
           favor of handwaving over something that most people, left and right,
           agree with, namely, that we need a solution that protects the
           borders without marginalizing the immigrant class. And his dig at
           Soc Sec is just petty.
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42549 Activity:nil
3/30    what do people think about the British memos supposedly
        saying Bush/Blair were thinking of ways to fake cause
        for invading Iraq in case we didn't find WMD quickly?
        Excuse my poor English.  I'm talking about these:
        http://tinyurl.com/eabyg
        I don't know where the original NY Times story is.
        Just for laughs I looked around on Fox News . com for the story
        but I can't find it.
        \_ What?!  Are you saying the NYT and Foxnews are the same since
           neither has the story?
           \_ No, not at all.  I doubt it was ever on Fox News.  Please
              prove me wrong!   The NY Times article is now behind
              their paywall.
              \_ http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183689,00.html
                 I typed "blair memo" into their search engine.  It was the
                 first link.  You sure tried really hard, huh?
                 \_ I guess your brain uses different buckets for the
                    hashes, i didn't think of that since there seems to be
                    secret BLAIR memos coming out every other month.
                    anyway I don't want to imply Fox News is a bunch of
                    scum sucking administration sycophants.  I am surprised
                    at the lack of public outcry.  I know we've been
                    debating whether Bush made up shit when invading
                    Iraq but the memo seems pretty damning.
                    \_ Hey that is a DIFFERENT blair memo.  See, a new
                       shocking one comes out all the time!  Please read
                       the above urls again.  My BLAIR memo has Bush
                       suggesting we paint a plane in UN colors so Saddam
                       would shoot at it and then we can invade in
                       retaliation.
                       \_ As I said before it was overwritten: it should be
                          no surprise that there are multiple memos on the
                          same topic between the leadership of two close
                          allies on an important issue.
        \_ Well, Dubya doubted Blix would find the WMDs, but he was sure that
           Saddam had them, so he attacked in March '03 to prevent Blix from
           not finding them longer.
2006/3/30-4/3 [Computer/HW/Laptop, Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:42550 Activity:nil
3/30    So which current laptop out there works with Linux and
        hibernation-to-disk (not suspend to memory) ?
        \_ I have a toshiba that seems to work w/ Linux hibernate. I'll
           get you the model number tonight.
        \_ I thought newer linux kernel supports suspend-to-disk, no?
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Transportation/Airplane] UID:42551 Activity:nil 75%like:42538
3/29    Woman gets a ticket for having a W BUSH bumper sticker:
        http://csua.org/u/fdg (Atlanta Journal) (Reg required)
        \_ To be clear, she got a ticket for having a bumper sticker that
           read, "I'm tired of this BUSHSHIT."
                                    \_ BUSHIT
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42552 Activity:nil 93%like:42546
3/30    http://tinyurl.com/p3fpg (news.yahoo.com)
        Carroll freed in Iraq!!! HAPPY NEWS finally.
        \_ I bet the Freepers think this is bad news.
           \_ Pretty much:
              http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1606219/posts
              My favorite is "does she look Arab to you?"
              \_ Considering the Italian journalist was later found with
                 some of the ransom money, some degree of doubt is
                 appropriate.
                 Here is the real victim of this story:
                 Remembering Allan: a tribute to Jill Carroll's interpreter
                 http://csmonitor.com/2006/0306/p01s03-woiq.html?s=t5
2006/3/30-31 [Uncategorized] UID:42553 Activity:nil
3/30    is our email down? getting calls that emails are bouncing
2006/3/30-31 [Recreation/House] UID:42554 Activity:nil 88%like:42572
3/30    http://infosthetics.com/archives/2006/03/flying_carpet_geographical_map.html
        Cool map as the carpet
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:42555 Activity:low
3/30    Carroll freed only because the US military made secret
        negociations with the terrorists. News at 11.
        \_ Khalilzad says no ransom was paid and no "arrangements with anyone"
           were made by U.S. officials.  He did thank Iraqi politicians for
           their efforts, though.  The video put out by the kidnappers today
           said that the U.S. released some female Iraqi hostages.
        \_ URL please.  Everything I'm reading says no ransom was paid.
           \_ so much for not negotiating with terrorists.
              \_ Nono. We never negotiate with terrorists. The release of
                 a few female prisoners was planned long time ago and
                 it merely coincided with Carroll's release. The terrorists
                 thought we negotiated but we didn't. We're already winning
                 the war on terror and there is no need for negotiation.
              \_ So everyone but the kidnappers says there were no negotiations
                 and you believe them.  Nice.
2006/3/30-4/1 [Recreation/Dating, Transportation] UID:42556 Activity:nil
3/30    Commuter porn everywhere: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12059964
        \_ "wherever new audio-visual electronics go, porn goes with it."
           He's got that backwards.
           \_ That...that doesn't make very much sense.
2006/3/30-4/3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Aspolito] UID:42557 Activity:nil
3/30    Who works at WaveMarket? I'm not going in to ask for anonymous
        sodans. -- jsjacob
        \_ is that homosexual code?
        \_ Brain, aspo, danh, crebbs
           \_ Plenty of sodans work at Google.  WaveMarket is the next
              Google!
             \_ why dont they help get us jobs there?
                \_ Do you need a job?  /csua/pub/jobs/AvantGo  --dbushong
             \_ WaveMarket is the next CSUA!
2006/3/30-4/1 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Computer/SW/Graphics] UID:42558 Activity:nil
3/30    http://tinyurl.com/ese8k
        Device tells you if you're boring or not. Helpful for geeks.

           wealth the company has much better chances of success, as everyone's
           interests then align for the good of the corporation.  It's better
           to own 25% of a billion dollar corporation than to own 90% of a
2006/3/30-31 [Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:42559 Activity:moderate
3/30    http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132848
        Photo evidence and witness report (Boston U assistant professor):
        Scalia punctuated gesture with verbal "Fuck you" (in Italian)
        \_ Good thing he doesn't go cruising in parks by the Potomac in
           the middle of the night.
           the middle of the night like some of his comtemporaries.
           the middle of the night like some of his contemporaries.
        \_ "Va fa in culo" means "do (it) in the asshole", not "fuck you."
           Subtle semantic difference.  -John
        \_ Good thing he doesn't go cruising in parks by the Potomac in
           the middle of the night like some of his contemporaries.
           \_ You usually translate the meaning of these things, not the
              word-for-word mapping. "Va te faire foutre" doesn't translate
              directly to "fuck you," but that's a pretty good idiomatic
              way to get across what it means.
        \_ What is it about extreme right wingers that makes them so vulgar?
           First Cheney's "go fuck yourself", now Scalia.  Or is it that the
           media just loves to pounce on these self-righteous assholes?
2006/3/30-31 [Uncategorized] UID:42560 Activity:nil
3/30    http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/advertisements/tsad0324.gif
        Liberal t-shirts
2006/3/30-31 [Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:42561 Activity:nil
3/30    Is there a way in Mac OS X to get the total packet count sent/received
        for a particular network interface?
        \_ $ netstat -I [interface] | tail -1
           Col 5 (Ipkts) is the recv'd pkts, Col 7 (Opkts) is the sent pkts.
           \_ Excellent! Thanks.
        \_ Looks like Activity Monitor shows all network activity combined.
2006/3/30-4/1 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:42562 Activity:nil
3/30    In C, what's the purpose of using "extern" for function declarations
        in .h files that are included by .c files in other modules?  Thx.
        \_ Functions are default globabl scope in C, so extern is redundant.
           See p 41 Expert C Programming.
        \_ It's unnecessary.  I guess you could use it for emphasis to
           contrast against 'static', though.  See:
           http://c-faq.com/decl/extern.html
2006/3/30-4/2 [Uncategorized] UID:42563 Activity:nil
3/30    David Yeagley on Mexico
        http://www.badeagle.com
        \_ jblack is back!
2006/3/30-31 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:42564 Activity:nil
3/30    link:tinyurl.com/l9yrq (Google Adventure from http://groups.msn.com
        \_ I'm not sure if this is funny, or just kind of odd.
        \_ This is Dumb
2006/3/30-4/1 [Consumer/Audio] UID:42565 Activity:nil
3/30    Cool new iPod case.  Mostly SFW.
        http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/3/30/3401
        \_ I don't get it.  I'm so out.
           \_ If you don't get it, you're lucky.
           \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatse
              \_ Ouch!
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42566 Activity:nil
3/30    http://www.prospect.org/weblog/archives/2006/03/index.html#009646
        Tewwowist killer Hillary rakes in big bucks fundraising in Bush country
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:30 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>