Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:25 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
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2006/3/25-26 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:42421 Activity:very high
3/24    Wow!  FreeBSD sure is stable!  After seeing soda's amazing uptime
        record, I sure want to go replace my Linux boxes with FreeBSD!
        Please do not delete this, or burn down Linus' house because I have
        blasphemed the holy FreeBSD.  I'd love to see a genuine discussion with
        examples from both sides comparing the stability of *modern* FreeBSD
        and Linux machines running on x86 hardware. -dans
        \_ Wow!  You're sure a dumbass!
           \_ Wow!  You're a cunt.  A not particularly amusing one at that.
              I'm sorry, did I use facts to mock your operating system of
              choice? -dans
        \_ Hope you are not blaming all instability on our box, EECS network
           is undergoing some maintenance (as noted in motd.official) and thus
           much of any downtime experienced is due to all of eecs net being
           unavailible. -mrauser
        \_ How can you possibly compare soda to your X many production Linux
           or anything else installs?  Soda is nothing like a production box.
           Also, the idea that anyone's boxes have uptime of 2+ years just
           means someone isn't patching them.  It would be a very rare 2 year
           window for any mainstream unix/unix-like OS to not have a
           must-reboot patch, kernel update, etc.  Lengthy uptimes don't
           impress me with the quality of the OS.  They make me unimpressed
           with the lack of administrative quality time devoted to maintaining
           the machines.  Service uptime is critical, box uptime is not.
           Service uptime is what various load balancing schemes exist to
           provide.  As far as having latest shiney new driver or not, that
           depends on the environment.  A large budget facility doesn't need
           to care because the new shiney is coming from a large company who
           damned well better provide a production quality driver.  In a lesser
           environment I find it difficult to accept that there's some new
           shiney that was required for production business operations that
           didn't come with a good driver.  The rest is just toys.  Any
           hardware product that doesn't come with a good driver isn't
           production ready and doesn't go into my data center.  As far as
           desktops, shrug, I don't care.  That's all eye candy anyway.  Most
           users were just as productive with DOS 3.1 as they are with whatever
           is on their system today.  Probably more productive then since
           multi-tasking was extremely difficult so there were no distractions
           from email, surfing, downloading that new mp3, tweaking their
           desktop brackground to "just the right shade of pink", etc.
        \_ soda runs FreeBSD. soda is unstable. By induction all FreeBSD
        \- sloda runs FreeBSD. soda is unstable. By induction all FreeBSD
           machines are unstable and dans' brain has been classified as: small.
           Did you write this or did tom forge this to make you look like
           did you write this or did holube forge this to make you look like
           an idiot?
           \_ If you're the same asshole who called me a dumbass the last time,
              I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read
              my response the first time.  You don't deserve I suspect you
              nuked the post when I lambasted your beloved FreeBSD with facts.
              My original comment is snarky and sarcastic, but dumbass guy
              [you?] is[/are] a stupid, humorless git who doesn't understand
              that humor and rigorous argument do not always serve the same
              purposes.  He wanted to throw a temper tantrum.  I'd like to read
              actual information.  I'll repeat what I said last time: in my
              experience with many (n > 50) modern (within in the last 4-5
              years) Linux boxen under moderate to heavy load, they have
              proved quite stable (ignoring several boxes with bad hardware,
              uptime ranging from 6 months to 2+ years and counting).  In my,
              admittedly limited (n approx 10), experience with FreeBSD hosts
              in the same time frame, uptime is around 3 months average, with
              2 instances like soda where uptime is measured in days or weeks,
              sometime as bad as hours.  If you want to be a dick, for reasons
              I don't understand, a disgustingly common characteristic of
              members of the FreeBSD community, and delete this thread, go
              ahead, I will repost.
              P.S. tom, is that you?  I know you're delusional, but, seriously
              this is over the top.
              -dans
              \_ Anybody want to make bets on whether dans will suffer
                 a brain malfunction or leave soda in disgust in the
                 next 12 months.  He seems to be showing some of the
                 early warning signs.  Yanking the dans chain is now
                 clearly an amateur sport.  Tom on the other hand is
                 immune to being shamed even after repeatedly making
                 immune to being sshamed even after repeatedly making
                 a fool out of himself.
                 \_ You're a pretty sorry troll, I give you a 2.7 out of 10.
                    Score includes the following mandatory deductions:
                    -2 not funny
                    -.7 verbose, which says a lot coming from someone with my
                        verbal diarrhea.
                    P.S. Interrogative statements are concluded with a
                    question mark, not a period.
                    P.P.S. I already suffer from a genetic brain malfunction,
                    the good news is that it's merely life threatening, not
                    behavorial like the dementia I suspect tom suffers from. :)
                    P.P.P.S. I'll take that action.  $100 says you're wrong.
                    -dans
              \_ Please don't get mad at me, but I think you may have been
                 trolled. Dude, name calling, insults, whatever, it's just
                 the motd and it's the norm, m'kay?   -not the pp
                 \_ Oh, it's cool.  I don't mind being trolled, especially
                    when it's well done, unlike the preceding.  I really want
                    to hear people's experiences with modern Linux and FreeBSD
                    uptimes. -dans
                    \- the problem with AssOS is not uptime. --psb
                       \_ Please enlighten me oh mighty, unbiased partha!
                          What is the problem with Linux?  Why is AssholeOS
                          superior?
                            One non-technical aspect of the two operating
                          systems that seems to play a key role in the success
                          and popularity of each is the ethos of their
                          supporting communities.
                            The Linux community is fundamentally more
                          supportive and inclusive.  This gives rise to a
                          particular problem, the hordes of L1NUX RUL3Z, M$
                          SUX0RZ kiddies, but, as long as you're not reading
                          Slashdot, it seems pretty easy to ignore them.
                          Also, some grow up into smart, clueful people.
                          Plus, the larger community size means there are more
                          people with clue in very specific, narrow areas who
                          take the time to write code, documentation, or
                          otherwise.  IMO, it's a net benefit for knowledge,
                          and it's obvious that Linux is significantly more
                          popular and widely used than FreeBSD.
                            The FreeBSD community, on the other hand, is
                          fundamentally exclusive and critical.  It seems to
                          be peopled largely with folks who believe they have
                          clue that was earned through years of pain and toil,
                          and lashings at the hands of community elders.
                          Consequently, members of the FreeBSD community seem
                          more interested in making n00bs suffer like they did
                          rather then helping folks out.  Its hard to evaluate
                          whether typical members of the FreeBSD community
                          actually have clue or not since they are so
                          unwilling to get of their high horse and share.
                          \- freebsd community unwilling to share?
                             this is delusional. kqueue, softupdate,
                             bpf, sort of, VM work.
                          Notably, Google uses Linux, not FreeBSD, are the
                          people that made that decision idiots and dumbasses?
                          Why? -dans
                          \- why do you think i am biased? ... i assume
                             you are claiming that my judgement is colored
                             by something other than the relevant facts,
                             rather than i have come to form an opinion?
                             i can accept that i am biased in my evaluation
                             of say MSFT products because i think they are
                             evil fuckers, but i dont think i am a priori
                             biased against linux. --psb
                             \_ You've been using the name AssOS for years.
                                This suggests that you are judging Linux based
                                on what it was many years ago when FreeBSD was
                                clearly superior.  Wouldn you fault Mac OS X
                                because Mac OS 9 left much to be desired?  Of
                                course not, that would be biased.  When was
                                the last time you looked at a modern version
                                of Linux without years of historical bias?  I
                                looked at FreeBSD 5.x RELEASE about six months
                                ago.  Also, you have yet to state any facts,
                                other than that stability is not the problem
                                with Linux.  What is? -dans
                                \- i dont "look at OSes" ... i have to work
                                   with them fairly consistently and frankly
                                   one of the irritations with linux is the
                                   "working set" of problems changes a lot.
                                   anyway, my point above was the problem
                                   with linux or freebsd is not "it keeps
                                   crashing". a rolex might be better than
                                   a rolexxx because the hands are less likely
                                   to fall off, but that's not a great standard
                                   to evaluate a ppatek vs rolex. BTW, i think
                                   solaris is a good operating system evaluated
                                   with evans hall rather than main street
                                   criteria. from a main street perspective
                                   yes it is annoying it doesnt ship with emacs
                                   but that's not really a technical criticism
                                   of the OS. i wish linux was in better shape
                                   while in the case of MSFT, i would be
                                   delighed to see them fail, get sued, lose
                                   mkt share etc. --psb
                                   \_ I work with operating systems too.  But
                                      first I look at an OS to decide if I
                                      want to work with it or not.  In the
                                      want to work with it or not.  You may
                                      not have that choice.  In the
                                      case of soda, however, and at least one
                                      other FreeBSD box I worked on or with,
                                      the issue was ``it keeps crashing,''
                                      and, frankly that's a non-starter.
                                      I think you and I have directly opposing
                                      attitudes on what we feel is important
                                      in a UNIX operating system.  It appears
                                      you like FreeBSD because it doesn't
                                      change, or it changes at a pace that does
                                      not disrupt your work habits.  I like
                                      Linux because it has wide support for
                                      most new hardware, and drivers mature at
                                      an alarming rate.  I find that using a
                                      solid distribution like Debian or
                                      [K]Ubuntu goes a long way to keeping the
                                      working set from changing too
                                      drastically.  It's true that,
                                      historically, the Linux kernel gets a
                                      major overhaul every every 1.5 to 2
                                      years.  This is often a big change,
                                      but it's rare that one *must* upgrade
                                      the kernel, much less do it urgently.
                                      Of course, if you want support for shiny
                                      new hardware like me, sometimes you need
                                      to bite the bullet and do it.  Don't
                                      even get me started on Solaris. -dans
                                      even get me started on Solaris.  I agree
                                      that not shipping with emacs is not a
                                      technical criticism, but, since the vast
                                      majority of software I use in any
                                      computing environment is Free/Open
                                      Source, it's important to have an easy
                                      way to install software without needing
                                      to build it from scratch and deal with
                                      dependency hell.  Solaris is awful for
                                      this, its package management tools are
                                      ancient.  Also, since Sun makes a lot of
                                      money off of training and support
                                      contracts, it is disincentivized from
                                      making Solaris easier to administer and
                                      use. -dans
                                      \- when linux breaks something like
                                         dump because of their performance-
                                         related decisions about how to
                                         deal with the buffer cache, i dont
                                         you cant just dismiss that "disrupting
                                         my personal work habits" or when
                                         they keep changing packet capture
                                         details. yes, i agree linux supports
                                         more hardware, probably has better
                                         desktop toys etc. however if you
                                         ever tried debuggins a crash dump
                                         you would be pretty clear why
                                         solaris >> linux. and i think
                                         ports is nicer than rpm and the
                                         design issue generally offsets the
                                         matter of ports lagging rpm often
                                         for shiny new stuff. sure, i've run
                                         into problems with bsd in somewhat
                                         obscure areas like udp coalescing
                                         with extremely small latency paths
                                         or pcap on machine with multiple
                                         interfaces and potentically
                                         asymmetric routes ... but on linux
                                         i have run into problem with cp
                                         and grep. --psb
--psb
                                         and grep. BTW, pcap is an area
                                         solaris/streams,dlpi sort of sucks
                                         compared to bsd/bpf too. --psb
                                         \_ I am well aware that the Solaris
                                            kernel and process/memory tracing
                                            utilities are vastly superior to
                                            FreeBSD's and Linux's.  It's just
                                            not something that's relevant to
                                            my present day needs.  rpm is shit,
                                            and I'm not a big fan of RedHat or
                                            its derivatives (I haven't touched
                                            it recently, I hear its'
                                            improved).  For package management,
                                            apt and its derivatives are so
                                            vastly superior to any other
                                            package management system I know
                                            of.  Does ports even support binary
                                            packages?  It's 2006.  Needing to
                                            \- you are unaware of freebsd
                                               options here.
                                            compile every piece of software
                                            that runs on a modern system is
                                            ridiculous.  Yes, compilation
                                            should always be available as a
                                            fallback/worst case scenario, but
                                            it shouldn't be the default mode
                                            of operation.  Keep changing
                                            packet capture details?  Doesn't
                                            everyone just use libpcap?  What's
                                                     \- do you understand
                                                        libpcap doesnt use
                                                        libpcap?
                                            changing regularly in Linux?  I
                                            suppose if you're used to dump,
                                            that's all well and good.  For my
                                            backup needs, rsync is a superior
                                            replacement for dump.  It sounds
                                                        \- dump is just one
                                                        manifestation of
                                                        something fudamentally
                                                        broken. i cannot give
                                                        you and os lecture here
                                                        you an os lecture here.
                                                        actually i am a little
                                                        curious how fsck works
                                                        on AssOS when linus
                                                        said he didnt approve
                                                        of raw devices.
                                            like you got bit on the ass by
                                            some truly annoying things in the
                                            past.  Do these problems exist on
                                            *modern* Linux machines?  Is it
                                            possible that the problem lies not
                                            with the kernel, but with the
                                            distribution?  I have *never*
                                            encountered problems like these on
                                            Debian, and I've been using it
                                            since the 2.2 kernel days. -dans
                                            \- yes, it is basically inevitable
                                               we will continue to be bit on
                                               the ass because the problems
                                               are not essentially technical
                                               but the priorities of the
                                               project. see e.g. the recent
                                               motd discussion about 64bit.
                                               ok maybe freebsd is lagging in
                                               64bit clean file systems, but
                                               at least you dont get weird
                                               surprises. oh, freebsd 5.4
                                               vs linux 2.6 on heavy gigabit
                                               links recent enough for you
                                               to talk about packet capture
                                               experiences? trust me, it isnt
                                               even close. yes, you can do
                                               some hacking and tweaking and
                                               get some hardware configs
                                               where linux is comparable
                                               or better [on intel+smp+special
                                               kernel patches on linux while
                                               running a mysql vs bsd out of
                                               the box running postgres] but
                                               fundamentally, at high rates
                                               where you are seeing 30% drops
                                               on linux, bsd is dropping 0.
                                               when it come to operating systems
                                               half a loaf is not always better
                                               than none. say linux has a
                                               flakey infiniband driver a
                                               year before freebsd has a solid
                                               one. it's unclear that year of
                                               lead time is a benefit. --psb
                                               \_ We can continue to split
                                                  hairs over bug foo that bit
                                                  us on the ass that one time
                                                  or driver bar that wasn't
                                                  available that other time.
                                                  I could counter your
                                                  hypothetical with the fact
                                                  that, generally speaking,
                                                  Linux supports more hardware
                                                  options which increases the
                                                  likelihood that, for any
                                                  given class of device, at
                                                  least one will have a driver
                                                  that does not suck, and I
                                                  easily find out which one
                                                  with Google.  Also, comparing
                                                  mysql to postgres is apples
                                                  and oranges.  mysql is fast
                                                  because it cuts corners and
                                                  is not ACID compliant with
                                                  the default myISAM tables.
                                                  I am dubious that, if you
                                                  ran the same database on
                                                  both systems, the
                                                  performance characteristics
                                                  would differ dramatically.
                                                  If mysql was 10% faster on
                                                  FreeBSD, don't you think
                                                  someone would be trumpeting
                                                  this fact loudly and
                                                  regularly?  Also, if FreeBSD
                                                  was so much faster or better
                                                  suited for production
                                                  environments, why does Linux
                                                  dominate in industry?  Why
                                                  did the smart folks at
                                                  Google choose Linux over
                                                  FreeBSD?  The questions are
                                                  largely rhetorical, but I
                                                  think they make it clear
                                                  that Linux is not a toy, and
                                                  referring to it as AssOS is
                                                  silly and a tad juvenile.
                                                  At this point, I'm willing
                                                  to agree to disagree since
                                                  our OS needs and desires are
                                                  quite different.  WRT soda,
                                                  if we rule out hardware
                                                  problems, I think it's
                                                  apparent that, FreeBSD is
                                                  not the best choice.  No,
                                                  I'm not advocating that Soda
                                                  run Linux, but I would like
                                                  it to be stable.  OS X
                                                  anyone? :) -dans
                                                  \_ OSX crashes just fine
                                                     for me.
        The overhead of Mach, the netinfo stuff _/
        and the general difficulty of remote admin'ing OS X sans Apple tools
        make it less than ideal for Soda.  My experience w/ linux customers
        suggests that linux works well in certain environments (single
        function dedicated servers: ex. technical computing,db serving, &c.;
        desk- tops) but its is not very stable/secure for a heavily used
        multiuser system like soda. Personally I think that OpenSolaris
        would be a better option for soda.
        multi- user system like soda. Personally I think that OpenSolaris
        would be a better bet for soda.
        Re FreeBSD - some reasons I prefer it to Linux are:
        1. pf and altq - much nicer than anything inLinux. (Yes I run OBSD
                                                  \_ The overhead of Mach,
                                                     the netinfo stuff and
                                                     the general difficulty
                                                     of remote admin'ing
                                                     OS X sans Apple tools
                                                     make it less than ideal
                                                     for Soda.
                                                     My experience w/ linux
                                                     customers suggests that
                                                     linux works well in
                                                     certain environments
                                                     (single function
                                                     dedicated servers: ex.
                                                     technical computing,
                                                     db serving, &c.; desk-
                                                     tops) but its is not
                                                     very stable/secure for
                                                     a heavily used multi-
                                                     user system like soda.
                                                     Personally I think that
                                                     OpenSolaris would be
                                                     a better bet for soda.
                                                     Re FreeBSD - some
                                                     reasons I prefer it
                                                     to Linux are:
                                                     1. pf and altq -
                                                        much nicer than
                                                        anything in Linux.
                                                        (Yes I run OBSD
           as well)
        2. /usr/ports - much nicer than apt or rpm. But I like rebuilding
           from src and excluding cruft in pkgs (I prefer dp to fink on
           OS X for the same reason).
        3. /usr/src - Don't have to hunt around for the src to a command/lib
           function if you run into a prob. This is a big problem on Linux,
           esp. w/ latest 64bit libc6, where it is hard to tell what all
           patches RH, SuSE, Debian, &c. applied.
        4. Rational development model - I hate having to read a bunch of email
           lists to figure out how to fix X feature on kernel Y.
        5. UFS + Softupdates vs. Ext3, XFS, JFS, &c. - My FreeBSD/OpenBSD
           boxes suffer little/no file corruption on power related crashes,
           while I've run into all sorts of problems on Linux systems w/
           so-call journaling fs.
        That said, I mostly work on Linux and it is okay. Mostly customers
        That said, I mostly work on Linux and its okay. Mostly customers
        like it b/c it is cheap and they can hire monkeys to maintain it or
        just reinstall if something doesn't work. Many customers just plan
        on wiping the OS every 2-3 mo and doing a clean install w/ latest
        patches b/c it is too hard to figure out how to run a stable linux
        system.
                                                     2. /usr/ports - much
                                                        nicer than apt or
                                                        rpm. But I like
                                                        rebuilding from
                                                        src and excluding
                                                        cruft in pkgs.
                                                     3. /usr/src - Don't
                                                        have to hunt around
                                                        for the src to a
                                                        command if you
                                                        run into a prob.
                                                     4. Rational development
                                                        I hate having to
                                                        read a bunch of
                                                        email lists to
                                                        figure out how to
                                                        fix X on kernel Y.
                                                     That said, I mostly
                                                     work on Linux and its
                                                     okay. Mostly customers
                                                     like it b/c it is
                                                     cheap and they can hire
                                                     monkeys to maintain it
                                                     or just reinstall if
                                                     something doesn't work.
                                                     Many customers just plan
                                                     on wiping the OS every
                                                     2-3 mo and doing a clean
                                                     install w/ latest patches
                                                     b/c it is too hard to
                                                     figure out how to run
                                                     a stable linux system.
                                              \_ Why did you run MySQL on
                                                 Linux in this comparison?
                                                 Both databases are
                                                 availible on both
                                                 systems.
                                                 \- i didnt mean to compare
                                                    mysql and postgres ...
                                                    the ideal was linux and
                                                    freebsd packet capture
                                                    end up using different
                                                    amounts of cpu which has
                                                    consequences when other
                                                    things are running on the
                                                    system. so there are
                                                    weird cases where linux
                                                    will do better, but they
                                                    are artificial cases ...
                                                    like when your gigabit
                                                    capture box is and old
                                                    enough single proc box to
                                                    run out of cpu cycles.
                                                    in this case the fact that
                                                    linux uses less cpu in
                                                    some cases is not really a
                                                    virtue since you would be
                                                    a dumbass to run a db on
                                                    your pcap box.
                                                    Here is a typical linux
                                                    and freebsd story: a linux
                                                    advocate who is a medium
                                                    profile figure in the linux
                                                    community sent us a note
                                                    about linux getting <10%
                                                    packet drops on a high
                                                    use gigE link where we
                                                    were seeing freebsd drops
                                                    in the 15-25% range i
                                                    believe. he wasnt exactly
                                                    crowing but was trying to
                                                    convince us linux didnt
                                                    suck any more. this greatly
                                                    surprised us and we would
                                                    have been delighted if this
                                                    were the case. but then we
                                                    ran the test on a testbed
                                                    network with a hardware
                                                    packet generator [so we
                                                    knew exactly how many
                                                    packets had gone by and
                                                    the rate as well] and it
                                                    it really turned out linux
                                                    was misreporting the
                                                    number of dropped packets.
                                                    (btw, this was a few
                                                    cpu generations ago.
                                                    amusingly sunhardware
                                                    which cost 3-5x of the
                                                    PCs couldnt come close
                                                    to keeping up because of
                                                    the heavy user space
                                                    processing). most people
                                                    doing their home testing
                                                    dont have hardware traffic
                                                    generators and probably
                                                    would have left with the
                                                    impression linux was
                                                    better/faster.
                                                    BTW, if you want to see
                                                    more bitching about linux
                                                    (old linux) read the SOSP
                                                    paper on the google fs.
                                                    it's very much if the flavor
                                                    of my complaints. BTW, as a
                                                    condition of hiring rob pike
                                                    GOOG committed to going to
                                                    plan9. --psb
                                                    \_ Thanks for the
                                                       discussion, it's quite
                                                       interesting.  I knew we
                                                       could get to this once
                                                       we got past trolling
                                                       and namecalling.
                                                       -dans
2006/3/25-27 [Uncategorized] UID:42422 Activity:nil
3/24    http://campchaos.com/show.php?iID=137
        Humor. Semi.
2006/3/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics] UID:42423 Activity:low
3/24    http://dribbleglass.com/interview
        An Interview With God
        \_ <DEAD>www.godhatesamputees.com<DEAD> is more fun
        \_ Hey Mormons, what do you guys think about this?
        \- While the creator [of the WEEB site, not The Creator] seems to be
           having fun with most of the answers, he seems to think the 3 words
           advice at the end is a serious bit of moral philosophy. But it's
           not so simple, otherwise one of the large brains since Plato would
           have figured this out. In fact that bit of advice is "less powerful"
           than the Golden Rule ... the negative prescription doesnt address
           what are your affimative obligations to others, the fact that human
           evil is not the only source of harm [natural catastrophe, disease],
           or the problem of what do about those who will not follow that
           dictum [just war, law], nor how to allocate resource, a large
           problem in the area of ethics in public policy.
           \_ Power Schmouer, I prefer my moral platitudes to be *right* rather
           \_ Power Shmouer, I prefer my moral platitudes to be *right* rather
              than powerful.  Just because some weak willed tool WANTS someone
              to keep him from falling off the wagon (by rule of law or
              whatever other means), or keep the dangerous ideas of communists
              or Satans out of his head, does not mean I want him doing that
              unto me.  Some of us prefer the Confucian version of the golden
              rule, and see it's lack of "power" as a plus.   -phuqm (!top)
              \- i am not sure what your interpretation of "power" here
                 is but i mean it in the sense of "theoretical power",
                 meaning it covers a lot of cases, as opposed to being
                 narrow or situational.
                  \_ My intent, was to use *your* definition, which, tnx, I
                     didn't really need you to define.  1) because i got it.
                     2) because it doesn't matter, almost regardelss, my point
                     is going to stand.  "breadth", or any other characteristic
                     of the western golden rule you want to hold out as a
                     positive characteristic is less important to me than the
                     fact that I *don't want* people doing unto me just becuse
                     they would have me do unto them.  Get it?
              rule, and see it's lack of "power" as a plus.  Anyway, the vast
              majority of world problems would in fact be taken care of if
              people managed (they could not) to "do no harm." As for resources,
              The majority of famines in this day and age can be linked to
              political causes as opposed to natural scarcity. -phuqm (!top)
                     they would have me do unto them.  Get it?  Those cases
                     where it applies but "do no harm" doesn't, I often don't
                     like it's implications. -phuqm
2006/3/25-27 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign] UID:42424 Activity:nil
3/24    http://www.cnn.com/2006/TRAVEL/03/24/graceland.landmark.ap
        Elvis' home to be designated national landmark. Ah, you Sillymericans
2006/3/25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42425 Activity:nil
3/24    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060324/ap_on_re_us/immigration_rallies
        Hello, my name is jblack and I approve this message. Get the
        hell outa my country you illegal immigrants.
2006/3/25-4/7 [Uncategorized] UID:42426 Activity:nil
3/25    EECS Network is going up and down over break for maintenance.  Enjoy
        the instability. -mrauser
2006/3/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:42427 Activity:high
3/25    Vermont AP bureau chief abruptly fired for what appear to be overtly
        political reasons: http://csua.org/u/fc2
        This is hands down one of the most chilling pieces of news I've seen
        in a long time.  I originally found about this from Dan Gillmor's blog:
        http://bayosphere.com/node/1877
        Gillmor is a highly respected journalist who left the San Jose Mercury
        News to make the ideals of Citizen Journalism he laid out in his book,
        "We The Media," a reality.  I consider Gillmor to be a very reliable
        source. -dans
        \_ Uh... no.  AP chief fired for reasons currently only known to
           AP and him.  You may trust Gillmor but he's only able to quote
           unnamed 'sources'.  Public statements from professional journalists
           should maintain a higher standard than we do on the motd.  For all
           you know he got fired for pissing in someone's morning coffee.  You
           don't have any information beyond third+ hand rumor and suspician.
           \_ What part of ``appear to be'' don't you understand?  English,
              motherfucker, do you speak it?  Can you read it? -dans
        \_ So what? He got fired. Big deal. There are thousands of journalism
           majors currently working at your local Starbucks who can take his
           place.
              \_ Preprending "appears to be" isn't sufficient cover for the
                 next line, "This is hands down one of the most chilling
                 pieces of news I've seen in a long time" which makes it
                 clear this isn't an "appears to be" to you but you're taking
                 as fact and expect the rest of us to take as fact as well.
                 Just an FYI, take it as you will, "English, motherfucker, do
                 you speak it?" as a response makes you look like a ranting
                 moronic junior highschool level child.  It adds nothing to
                 the conversation.  It doesn't score you any points.  It's a
                 complete waste of bits at best.  And it never brings the
                 level discourse *up*.  We can all go to various http://myspace.com
                 quality communities and message boards if we want that level
                 of discussion.
                 \_ Seriously, your comments indicate that you have the
                    reading comprehension skills of a fourth grader.  When I
                    write, ``This is hands down one of the most chilling
                    pieces of news I've seen in a long time,'' the use of the
                    personal pronoun `I' indicates that the statement is *my*
                    opinion, and *not* a statement of fact.  You clearly don't
                    understand this.  Clearly, you cannot read English well.
                    In order to help you, I found this helpful workshop
                    provided by the BBC to educate you on personal pronouns:
                    http://csua.org/u/fc4
                    Furthermore, I signed every post I made to this thread
                    showing that I stand behind my words.  You don't.  You can
                    call my comment mean and nasty, but you can't call it
                    childish.  Childish is throwing an anonymous temper
                    tantrum when someone forcefully points out that your
                    previous anonymous post shows poor reading comprehension
                    skills.  This is the motd.  Nobody put a gun to your head
                    and forced you to respond to my post.  If you don't want
                    to be criticized, either don't post, or write your posts
                    and argue your points so well that there's nothing to
                    criticize.
                    P.S. When did we elect your anonymous ass to the position
                    of Arbiter of MOTD Behavior?  I missed that vote.
                    -dans
        \_ So what? Newspapers are a business. Business make decisions.
           Sometimes the decisions are based on politics. That is the
           way the world works. Besides, its not like there is anything
           worth reading in a newspaper besides the comics and Fry's ads.
           \_ This so has to be a troll.  I cannot believe anyone is this
              stupid.  ilyas, is that you?  No, can't be ilyas, no talk of
              sentient stars. -dans
              \_ Well, its only 1/2 a troll. I only look at two things in
                 the newspaper, the Fry's ad and the comics. Some days I
                 even skip the comics (other than Fox Trot, its not like
                 any of the comics can really compete w/ Penny Arcade).
                 \_ Coool! -dans
2006/3/25-26 [Reference/BayArea] UID:42428 Activity:nil
3/25    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060325/ap_on_re_us/life_on_the_fault
        Anyone live on the Hayward fault line?
        \_ Yup.
2006/3/25-26 [Recreation/Music] UID:42429 Activity:nil
3/25    LOTR The Musical:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060324/stage_nm/leisure_rings_dc
        \_ Wasn't it already a musical?
2006/3/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:42430 Activity:low
3/25    United 93:
        http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/united93/large.html
        GO BEAH!
        \_ Go 911! Go Republicans!!!
        \_ Somehow, this preview evoked a lot of my immediate post-911,
           anti all Muslims Go George Bush type of feelings.
           \_ The RedneckForce in you is strong. FEEL IT. Accept it. Yeeeees.
              Exceeeelent.
           \_ that is what this film want, no?  let's kill all 1.3 billion
              Muslims.
              \_ I have a feeling that once we are done with 1.3 billion
                 Muslims, Chinese is next on the list.
2006/3/25-27 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:42431 Activity:nil
3/25    Lego Aircraft Carrier:
        http://www.ezprezzo.com/crazypics/lego_aircraft_carrier.html
2006/3/25-27 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/Theory, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:42432 Activity:nil
3/25    The Ultimate Casio Watch:
        http://www.watchreport.com/2006/03/review_of_the_m.html
        \- i used to have an older incarnation of the Pathfinder [till it
           fell off at Mughal Sarai Junction] and a couple of comments:
           1. it is good they have changed this to a strap rather than a
           bracelet design. bracelet not good for these kinds of watches. i
           nearly lost mine after a b'let failure on a catemaranin 9ft
           seas, which is not where you want to try and fix something with
           <1mm springs. 2. i find the themometer of limited use, since
           while on your wrist you are really measuing the "temperature
           near you wrist". 3. if you really need a compass, you need to
           take a real orienteering compass ... these watch compasses are
           sort of just opportunistic things. 4. some of the featuers like
           altitude alarm, altitude recording, multiple alarms i dont find
           that useful [you cant upload the telementry data to a computer
           can you ... GPS mre useful in this area] and these things tend
           to make accessing the frequently used function slower and more
           complicated (like say converting between ft <-> m ... which was
           my main complaint with my old watch 5. often you can get an
           older model for vastly cheaper by just sacrificing some function
           you may not really need [you can get some older p'finder models
           for around $85 vs $300+ for this one, which is significant if
           you think of this as a piece of gear rather than your
           watch]. thanks for posting the link. i am happy to give advice
           on outdoor gear except for aid climbing and snow and ice. --psb
        \- i used to have an older incarnation of the Pathfinder
           [till it fell off at Mughal Sarai Junction] and a couple of
           comments: 1. it is good they have changed this to a strap
           and not a bracelet design. bracelet not good for these kinds
           of watches ... nearly lost mine after a b'let failure on a
           catemaran ... which is not where you want to try and fix
           something with <1mm springs. 2. i find the themometer of
           limited use, since while on your wrist you are really measuing
           the "temperature near you wrist". 3. if you really need a
           compass, you need to take a real orienteering compass ... these
           watch compasses are sort of just opportunistic things. 4. some
           of the featuers like altitude alarm, altitude recording, multiple
           alarms i dont find that useful [you cant upload the telementry
           data to a computer can you ... GPS mre useful in this area] and
           these things tend to make accessing the frequently used function
           slower and more complicated (like say converting between ft <-> m
           ... which was my main complaint with my old watch 5. often you can
           get an older model for vastly cheaper by just sacrificing some
           function you may not really need [you can get some older
           p'finder models for around $85 vs $300+ for this one, which
           is significant if you think of this as a piece of gear
           rather than your watch]. thanks for posting the link. i am
           happy to give advice on outdoor gear except for aid climbing
           and snow and ice.
           \_ I wanted to get this watch b/c it was the first casio I've
              seen that has world atomic timekeeping, is solar powered,
              water resistant  and it has that "indiglo"-like lighting.
              The compass was an added bonus, but I usually carry my eTrex
              GPS so its not an essential for me.
2006/3/25-27 [Computer/Networking] UID:42433 Activity:nil
3/24    I want to write in my DSL router to allow incoming connection
        from certain IP range. How do I find out the IP range for SBC
        DSL say in Bay Area/SF?
2006/3/25-27 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:42434 Activity:nil
3/24    So I am trying to fill my taxes with Tax Cut online with Firefox/Linux.
        Their web site says that my platform is not supported but I may proceed
        anyways. Should I proceed? Has anyone tried this already?
        \_ No. I say this because I've tried Firefox on many popular sites
           and my experience is that a lot of times web sites just simply
           don't work well, or work at all with Firefox. I'm pretty
           frustrated with this experience as well because I had to explain
           to my grandma why some sites she visits requires opening another
           browser, and had to spend 3-4 hours explaining what the browser
           was. In short, FUCK the people who don't use Firefox as their
           base web development site, and secondly, FUCK FIREFOX.
        \_ I filled out my taxes with TurboTax for the web using Firefox on
           OS X.  Already received my federal and state refunds.  No
           complaints. -dans
2006/3/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42435 Activity:nil
3/24    Immigration rallies draw thousands:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060324/ap_on_re_us/immigration_rallies
        \_ "Hundreds of the students, some carrying Mexican flags..."
           What message were they trying to send by flying Mexican flags?
           I suspect it's not one that would make people sympathetic.
        \_ One lady claims she's married to an illegal alien.  Huh?  If
           you're legal, you can get you husband in legalally too.  It's a
           pain, but then you'd be legal.  I'm not sympathetic.
2017/09/26 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:25 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>