Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:16 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2006/3/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42264 Activity:moderate 66%like:42272
3/15    Bush Will Be Judged On The Iraq War:
        http://csua.org/u/f9n
        \_ you didn't read news didn't you?  Mission Accomplished!
2006/3/16-17 [Recreation/Dating] UID:42265 Activity:moderate
3/15    To the young women dater guy: does this sound like your friend?
        http://csua.org/u/f9j (MSN http://Match.com article)
        \_ I'm not the young dater guy but I have to agree with
           the poster. IMHE young women tend to be more open minded.
           \_ more open^H^H^H^Hblow jobs
           They are willing to try new things like Ethiopian restaurants or
           even McD when convenience is needed. Older women tend to be very
           picky with regard to food, cars, and even clothes you wear.
           Here is one data point-- a nice young girl I dated for 9 years
           got bitcher and bitcher. She complained about my hairstyle
           and clothes and how loudly I closed cupboards and why I didn't
           put down the toilet seat and other bullshit that had been
           there 9 years ago. We used to be happy eating at cheap
           restaurants but towards the end she had to pick on every little
           thing like this food has too much salt, that food has too much
           MSG, you need to get a bigger apartment or buy a house, whatever.
           Face it. As women grow older, they expect more and they demand
           more. My mother is the same thing. She always wants more and
           nothing made her happy. Understandably, my dad left her decades
           ago. You guys seriously like older women? Whatever. You take your
           old hags and I'll take my stress free young women, and let's
           leave it at that.
           \_ So, based on a sample set consisting of two women, i.e. this
              girl you once dated and your mother, you've concluded that all
              women turn into bitches as they age.  That's scientific. -dans
              \_ I think the guy is a moron, but he's right that women
                 expect more as they age. That's to be expected and there's
                 nothing wrong with that. A 16 year old girl is impressed
                 if you have a car. A 20 year old woman is impressed if you
                 have a good job. A 50 year old woman has entirely different
                 expectations about family and retirement and so on. An
                 18 year old might only care about drinking and getting
                 laid, but by the time she is 38 years old (if she matures
                 in a 'normal' way) she expects more from her life and more
                 from the men she is involved with. Men who continually
                 seek out young women are predators of sorts, the
                 exception perhaps being if they want to have children
                 and are of an age where similarly aged women can't
                 provide them.
                 \_ Upshot of the whole discussion:
                    Whatever floats your boat.  -John
                    \_ I am amazed and sort of depressed at the amount of
                    \_ I am amazing and sort of depressed at the amount of
                       pointless nagging guys mostly put up with from their
                       women [I know women put up with other problems from
                       guys].  I remember once a friend was driving to LA
                       with his GF/wife/fiance [dont remember her status at
                       the time] and we all stopped at Safeway to buy some
                       snacks for the road and she complained there was a
                       parking spot 10ft closer to the store.  Jesus
                       Christ, you aren't 80yrs old and it's not like you
                       are offering to drive half way [and we were going
                       are offereing to drive half way [and we were going
                       to see her ex-BF's gallery opening].  Things like
                       that are small in themselves but I think they are a
                       bad sign.
                       \_ I don't know if it's necessarily a bad sign,
                          neither my wife nor my mother are big naggers.
                          However, my sister-in-law nags  like crazy, and
                          I don't mean to just her husband.  She nags my
                          wife, me, my mother-in-law, everybody.  It's
                          just her personality.
                          \_ I think some forms of nagging have the same
                             underlying cause  as people who are habiually
                             late: the offenders dont value other people's
                             time.  Another friend has a sister-in-law
                             who ask my friend to say dl and burn DVDs for
                             them etc ... gee, why dont you pay $3.50 to
                             the video store.  Again, this self-serving
                             form of naggery is a different phenomena
                             than say a mother who nags her kids to study,
                             clean their room etc.
2006/3/16-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42266 Activity:moderate
3/16    honest question:
        People say Bush and his gangs are "Neo-Conservative."   Exactly
        what do they mean by that?  Another question.  Fiscal Disipline is
        usually one of supposely "conservative" value.  But by looking at
        records of Reagan, HW Bush, and GW Bush, it is not the case at all!
        How does that work?
        \_ It's a transparent attempt to make people think of "neo-nazi"
           \_ Bullshit.
        \_ Politicians are hypocrites and liars.  They give the voters what
           they want and lie about the consequences.
           \_ So astute - teach us more o' wise one.
        \_ http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html
           \_ thanks.  good link.  I guess my perception about neo-cons are
              also fiscal conservative is completely false.  On the other
              hand, it still doesn't explain why we support radical,
              dictatorship such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia :p
              \_ that's an easy one.  SA supplies a big chunk of our
                 oil.  A military quasi-dictatorship in Pakistan is
                 magnitudes better than the pro Western jihad
                 Islamic fundamentalist groups taking power.
                 \_ There are pro-West jihad Islamic fundamentalists?
        \_ http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html
                    \_ I actually met a guy like that.  He was pretty weird.
                 \_ What happened to install democracy world wide?
        \_ basically neocons believe in the preemptive strike
           \_ so are democrats who believe in preemptive strike also neocons?
           \_ Why can't they take this preemptive attitude and clean
              up city like Oakland? Arrest and execute those known
              fuckers and the city will be a much safer place.
              \_ weak weak weak troll.  your troll score: F!
              \_ gimme a modern dem who favors preemptive and i'll tell you
                 how neocon they are
                 \_ lieberman is a strong supporter of GWB's Iraq policy and
                    the principles behind it.
                    \_ ob he's a closet republican
                       \_ so anyone in favor of any GWB policy is really a
                          republican despite having been in the D party since
                          probably before you were born....  he's either with
                          us or against us!
                          \_ Do you know people are talking about a McCain-
                             Lieberman ticket?
                             \_ Do any of these people include John McCain or
                                Joe Lieberman?  I don't think I've seen either
                                one ever indicate that he was ready to
                                switch parties.  I find that scenario to be
                                implausible.
                          \_ and dubya's lips continue to look for lieberman
                             for smooching
           \_ I am still waiting for a preemptive strike against N.Korea...
              or we actually get scared for their preemptive strike doctrine?
              http://tinyurl.com/gj957
              \_ I'd start with Berkeley.
              \_ NK has 10,000 artillery pieces within range of SK's capitol.
                 Even if we could fly in and destroy all the nuke facilities
                 100% the retaliation strike is going to suck big time.  What
                 I find interesting is polls in SK that show young people from
                 the post Korean War era think the US should piss off and that
                 NK is a victim while the older folks are dreadfully afraid of
                 NK and want the US to stick around and even increase our
                 strength in SK.
                 \_ I see those crazy 'NK is misunderstood paradise
                    bullied by evil US' fuckers at protests in the bay area.
                 \_ I remember when I was still at Berkeley in the early 90s,
                    when 5 korean pastors came to the Bay Area to attend a
                    conference, and I took them on a trip to Yosemite.
                    The pastors mentioned to me they were very surprised
                    that Americans they met here were such nice people.
                    They say the Americans in SK were really arrogant.
                    \_ Most Americans in SK are either military or english
                       teachers.  The english teachers are often people
                       with no valuable skills except their ability to
                       speak their native language.  Not only that, but
                       Korea, for one reason or another, generally pulls
                       in the dregs of english teachers.  So, yeah, most
                       of the Americans I met in SK were jerks. -jrleek
                       \_ jrleek, you are just JEALOUS because those
                          "no valuable skills people who speaks their
                           native language" get laid easily.
                          \_ I know this is supposed to be a joke, but it
                             made me curious.  Do you think I'm Korean?
                             -jrleek
                       \_ I'm going to Korea to teach conversational English
                          and I have no special training.  What's the
                          fastest way to learn Korean?   Can you recommend
                          books, audio training kits, etc.?
                          \_ Korean is really freakin' hard, but if you
                             send me an email, I'll help however I can.  I
                             do have some suggestions for books, I didn't
                             really use audio kits, but I'm not even sure
                             how you'd get my favorite. -jrleek
              \_ we only go after ez ones, like Iraq ... we thought it was ez
2006/3/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42267 Activity:nil
3/16    Eurotrash!  http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1760580.html  -John
2006/3/16-18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42268 Activity:nil
3/16    First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you.
        Then they fight you. Then you win. -M. Ghandi
        http://csua.org/u/f9q (Article by http://Talkingpoints.com editor)
        (NYT article on Bush impeachment)
        \_ Why impeachment is a bad idea:
           http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Comment/JoshMarshall/031606.html
           http://tinyurl.com/oahfm (hillnews.com)
        \_ Politics is local.  The number of incumbents who lose elections each
           term is trivial.  Ghandi had a much better chance with the British
           than the D do of retaking anything.  His was a moral issue and he
           was on the side of right against a people who think of themselves
           in those terms.  Ds and Rs are just politicians.  There is no great
           moral conflict.  The math is the math.  Don't hold your breath.
           \_ The War on Iraq is not a moral conflict? Don't kid yourself.
              \_ "Politics is local".  Iraq is far far far away.
                 \_ In a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, 61 percent said the Iraq
                    war would be a very important or the most important issue
                    in deciding their vote for Congress.
        \_ 'With "impeachment on the horizon," he wrote, "maybe, just maybe,
           conservatives would not stay at home after all."'
           Uh, how does that jibe with 36% approval rating?
        \_ A majority of Americans, 56 percent, believe Bush is "out of
           touch," the poll found. When asked for a one-word description of
           Bush, the most frequent response was "incompetent," followed by
           "good," "idiot" and "liar." In February 2005, the most frequent
           reply was "honest."
           http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060316/pl_nm/bush_politics_dc
2006/3/16-18 [Uncategorized] UID:42269 Activity:nil
3/16    "Video: Animation shows how Ferrari split"
        link:www.yahoo.com/s/280417
2006/3/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42270 Activity:high
3/16    Can we seed little CSUAs in other universities?  Instead of friendly
        Irish bartenders, they will need their own toms.
        http://www.slate.com/id/2137893
        \_ It's normal enough to have sister clubs at different schools.
           The problem with the CSUA is that it's basically an obsolete
           organization type.  No one needs a club to get access to
           computing resources anymore.
           \_ ... but everyone needs a world-writable MOTD.
           \_ BTW, the charter of the CSUA is not about access to computing
              resources (that's what the UCF was and the OCF is for).  The
              CSUA is a social organization for people who care about CS.
                \_ seems like people care more about I.T. than real CS here.
              Indeed, the CSUA existed for many years without its own
              computer(s).
              \_ But the glory days of the CSUA were when computing resources
                 were scarce and real oses scarcer.
                 \_ Correlation, but hardly causation.  You could just as well
                    say that the glory days of the CSUA were when CS was an
                    avocation instead of a vocation.  And even that would be
                    wrong, since the CSUA was irrelevant and on the verge of
                    complete disappearance in 1986.
                    \_ No, he's sort of right in that it provided a pretty
                       nifty place to take a break from the labs.  -John
                    \_ Computing resources were still quite scarce in 1986.
                       \_ The CSUA did not get its own computer till 1988,
                          I think.  The scarcity of computing resources in
                          1986 did not mean it was the glory days of the
                          organization.
                       It's only in the last five to ten years that every new
                       UCB student started to bring a new computer, and only
                       the last five that it's been a laptop.  It's not that
                       the CSUA is obsolete, I think that there are some key
                       ideals and core values that will never be obsolete.  I
                       think the organization needs to reinvent itself for a
                       new millenium when hardware is cheap, fast, and
                       abundant while still maintaining those ideals and core
                       values. -dans
                       P.S. The CSUA is the second oldest active ASUC student
                       group on campus.  The only active group that predates
                       us is CHAOS, the Cal Hiking and Outdoors Society.
                       \_ Hmm, I'd say closer to 10-15 for computers, though
                          I'd agree with the last 5 for laptops (probably even
                          less)...though I suspect I've dated myself with this
                          post....                        -mice
                          \_ Doesn't ANY post to the motd kinda date the
                             poster?
                             \_ heh, very funny.
                             \_ It's not like anyone else would.  -John
                                \_ Heh, I was wondering if someone would hook
                                   into that.  Punk.   :P       -mice
                                   \_ "Straight line"... :-)  -John
                       \_ Elaine has her own ASUC student group?  Wow!
                             \_ ?
                          \- there is more to that then you think. --psb
              \_ Please cite the relevant portions of the CSUA charter that
                 state it is a social organization. -dans
                 \_ What is this charter everyone keeps talking about?
                    BTW, from the constitution:
                      to provide a forum for the personal interaction of
                      persons involved in the computer science
                    \_ The CSUA constitution was written years after the
                       organization formed, and written because the ASUC
                       insisted that we have one.  That's why our governing
                       body is called the politburo, it was a way of thumbing
                       our noses at the ASUC.  Presumably, we had a charter
                       before then.  To quote the complete text from the
                       constitution:
                       The purposes of this organization are: to represent the
                       undergraduate computer science student body in dealings
                       with the University of California at Berkeley, its
                       representatives, and any other appropriate organization;
                       to provide a forum for the personal interaction of
                       persons involved in the computer sciences; to promote
                       knowledge of and interest in the computer sciences; and
                       to raise funds to accomplish these goals.
                       So, yes, we're a social organization, but this is by no
                       means our only purpose.  Providing access to computing
                       resources falls under promoting knowledge of and
                       interest in CS, as well as providing a forum for social
                       interaction. -dans
                       \_ You quote a very selective history.  For at least
                          a decade, the mantra at meetings was "The CSUA is
                          _PRIMARILY_ a social organization.  We have some
                          interesting resources for you to play around with,
                          but we're not here to hold your hand computer-wise"
                          \_ Please show me documentation of this.  It
                             conflicts with my recollection, which was that we
                             have interesting resources to play with, but
                             we're not here to hold your hand computer-wise
                             because we're curmudgeonly bastards who think you
                             should figure shit out for yourself.  Socializing
                             had nothing to do with it.  I should also note
                             that the ``we're not here to hold your hand''
                             attitude is decidedly anti-social. -dans
                             \_ It's really not even worth discussing this
                                with you.  You've declared yourself arbiter
                                of the realm.  I'm with the majority here.
                                You've proven yourself obnoxious.
                                \_ Majority?  I must have missed the vote.
                                   I'm sorry if you find my requests for
                                   actual documentation obnoxious, but I'm
                                   genuinely interested in the historical
                                   record of the CSUA and like collection more
                                   data points. -dans
                                   \_ grep -ir social /csua/www/htdocs/Minutes
        \_ How about seeding little sodans in other universities instead?
           \_ I volunteer to seed undergraduates!
        \_ UCLA and UCD both had CSUA's when I was an ug. I wonder if they
           are still around? UCLA had a linux club a few years back that
           strongly reminded me of the CSUA, but they had no world writable
           motd.
        \_ My sister is attending Santa Cruz, and was thinking of starting
           a CSUA like organization.  They have a club for black
           engineers, hispaic engineers, women engineers, and IEEE.  I
           told her she should probably just join the IEEE if she wanted a
           club that didn't come with a designation.
           club that didn't come with a designation. -jrleek
           \_ Who are you?  Who is your sister?  My girlfriend is attending
              Santa Cruz. -dans
              \_ It's me, jrleek.  My sister is in CS, this is her first
                 year. -jrleek
                 \_ Neat.  Ask her if she wants to meet my gf, Belen.  She's
                    in her second year, probably majoring in Music, but
                    flirting with a CS minor. -dans
                    \_ Are you trying to set up POLYAMORY?
                       \_ Are you a MORON? -dans
                    \_ This name and location has been noted. --unstable motd
                                                                stalker
                       \_ What location?  I stated the institution she attends
                          not her location. -tricky dans
                          \_ School + Music + unusual name... not too hard eh?
                             Granted, I'm a very lazy stalker. But there may
                             be less lazy ones. --ums
                             \_ *probably* majoring in Music.  You'd have a
                                much easier time stalking her through myspace.
                                -dans
2006/3/16-18 [Industry/Jobs, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Health/Women] UID:42271 Activity:nil
3/16    Is this Vivagel stuff available for purchase in Australia?
        http://tinyurl.com/n77h2
2006/3/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42272 Activity:nil 66%like:42264
3/15    Bush Will Be Judged On The Iraq War:
        http://csua.org/u/f9n (Yahoo News, opinion piece from AFP)
        \_ you didn't read news didn't you?  Mission Accomplished!
2006/3/16-18 [Politics/Domestic, Recreation/Humor] UID:42273 Activity:low
3/16    Our great leader getting ready to RIDE BIKE
        http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/187/1525/320/belly4.jpg
        \_ As an American, I was pretty dissapointed with my two choices in the
           2004 election...but as a cyclist, I was damn happy with both
           choices.
        \_ I don't get it.
           \_ Is it the pink socks?  Is it the balding guy checking his gut
              behind him?  It just doesn't scream "presidential".
              \_ That's your it?  He doesn't look "presidential" when he's
                 exercising?  Heaven forbid!  (Honestly, I'd be pretty
                 happy if he ever looked presidential.)
                 \_ It's humour, not some slashing criticism... chill.  if
                    you don't find it funny, watch some dennis miller...
                    It's a lot funnier than Ann Coulter's "jokes" about
                    killing supreme court justices.
                    \_ yeah but short skirts and long legs... mmmm.
                       \_ If the skirts are short enough, you might be able
                          to catch a glimpse of her dick.
                    \_ I loved the thread about how that was ok because
                       "Democrats are always threathening to kill the president"
                       "Democrats are always threathening to kill the
                        president"
                       (no examples given)
              \_ The guy behind him is putting on a chest strap transmitter
                 for a heart rate monitor, not "checking his gut".
                 \_ Again, seriously, it's simply amusing.  Overanalyizing is
                    stupid.
2006/3/16-18 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:42274 Activity:high
3/16    Cal prank on USC basketball player
        http://csua.org/u/f9y
          \_ But wasn't that game in Berkeley?  It says they went to
             Westwood after the game.
             \_ sure, because they're from LA and travel back the same night
        \_ I think this is poor taste and no class.  I am embarassed for
           the "Rally Committee".
           \_ You should be embarassed by the very existence of a Rally
              Committee.  When childish wargames take precedence over academics
              and research, this is the expected result.
           \_ The player, as well his father, eventually had a good laugh
              over it.
              \_ And you can be sure that this player learned a good
                 life lesson about being in the limelight.
           \_ What exactly are your standards for taste and class?  Stuffy
              rooms decorated like the set of masterpiece theatre and high
              grade scotch served in a brandy snifter?  I think it's clever,
              crafty, and brilliant. -dans
              \_ I think he intended the conversation to be private.  It's
                 like making public the personal emails you have with someone.
                 His phone number is also made public.  Would you like your
                 phone number to be published on the internet?
                 It's a breach of etiquette at the very least.  I am not
                 saying he was smart, but for a Cal Rally Committee to
                 endorse and follow through with the plan is poor taste.
                 \_ My phone number *is* published on the internet.  While it
                    would rub me the wrong way to have my private email
                    published, I appreciate a good practical joke, even if I'm
                    the butt, so I'd let it slide.  Sometimes taste must
                    succumb to a higher calling, namely, humor. -dans
                 \_ My phone number *is* published on the internet.  On one
                    hand, yeah having someone publish my private email on the
                    net would rub me a little the wrong way.  On the other
                    hand, I appreciate a good practical joke, even if I'm the
                    butt of it.  I think that sometimes poor taste is
                    justified in the name of higher callings, like humor. -dans
                    \_ If that's the case, it doesn't apply here, unless
                       you have a really low bar for "clever, crafty, and
                       brilliant".
2006/3/16-18 [Recreation/Food, Finance/Shopping] UID:42275 Activity:high
3/16    Do you tip in buffet restaurants?  Aside from cabs and restaurants,
        where else do you tip?
        \_ Garbagemen, if they haul something unusual away. Also valets
           and bellhops/skycaps, obviously. Pizza delivery guys. Bartenders.
        \_ Garbagemen, if they haul something unusual away, valets,
           bellhops/skycaps, pizza delivery guys, bartenders, and strippers.
        \_ 5% in a buffet, if I feel generous.
        \_ My gf's family runs a restaurant and this is what she has to say.
           Some customers pay a lot and some don't. Those that pay more get
           special attention and get their food and drinks served faster and
           those that don't, well, her dad spits on their food. So, pay your
           fucking 20% tip if you want a clean meal. PS, I'm only joking.
           Seriously, she say they simply don't have the time or energy
           to keep track who pays how much tip and by law they have to treat
           EVERYONE with the same respect. She rarely remembers who pays
           more or less tip, but the more the better of course. In another
           word, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT. If you have the money and you have
           to ask, just fucking pay 20-30% and forget about it, and if you
           are tight on budget, don't pay. No one's gonna give you special
           treatment for overpaying or hunt you down and call you a cheap ass
           for underpaying tips. Shit. You're a fucking dumb ass.
           \_ yer gf's family runs a buffet restaurant?
           \_ yer gf's family runs a buffet or non-buffet restaurant?
           \_ When you go in to a restaurant and spend $500 you definitely
              get treated better than if you had spent $50. Part of the
              reason is that the servers know that they will probably
              (unless you're a bastard) get a much bigger tip in absolute
              terms, even if not in percentage terms. If you are a regular
              or if you truly appreciated the service, it makes sense to
              tip more as a percentage. My sister has been a GM at many
              fine restaurants (and was a server when in college) and you
              can bet that she remembers specific instances when someone
              was a cheap bastard or when someone was very generous.
              Sometimes she even had the same person as a client again and
              you bet it affected her attitude. However, this is more a case
              of getting stiffed after, say, a $1000 meal (or in one case a
              $10000 wedding party) rather than recalling if some schmoe tipped
              15% or 20% after his once per year birthday dinner where he
              spends $50. --dim
        \_ Let's talk about the legality of tip, and put aside, for now
           issues related to ethics, common courtesy, manner, conventions.
           By law, how much must you tip?
           By law, can the provider give differential treatments based on
           how much tip you gave them in the past?
           Can you go to jail for not paying tips?
           Are you a law abiding citizen even if you never tipped?
           \_ $0, but I've never heard of a law about differential treatment
              based on tips, as long as you don't spit in their food, give
              slow service based on race, or things like that.
        \_ I don't think tips are expected there since you're supposed to
           service yourself there. I would expect that tips are appropriate
           where you can identify a specific indiviual who provided you a
           service and who isn't being paid directly by you.  Taxi-cab driver,
           pizza delivery boy, and hairdesser are examples.
           \_ What if the hairdresser owns its own business, and you do pay it
              directly?
        \_ I have tipped a copy store employee who opened up the store for me
           a few minutes after closing to help me get fliers copied.  I think
           you should tip any exceptional service, and shouldn't feel
           obligated to tip if you feel the service was bad.  Everyone has to
           be paid minimum wage, if you don't feel the service was good you
           absolutely shouldn't tip.  If the manager gets angry at you or
           or something for not tipping, tell him why you didn't.  -mrauser
           \_ Servers do not have to be paid minimum wage, because it is
              expected that they will earn tips :
              http://www.opm.gov/oca/wage/minwage.asp
              \_ If for some reason they don't make enough in tips to cover
                 min wage they have to get compensated up to minuimum wage.
                 However if a server can't make minimum wage on tips they
                 aren't going to last long.
        \_ How many of these threads do we need to have?  If you have any
           social sense/grace at all, these questions are unnecessary.
           \_ I think these are useful.  What if you haven't been tipping
              when it is the custom?
        \_ buffet?  absolutely not.  what prompt service did I insure?  this
           whole tipping thing has gotten out of hand.
           \_ Do you tip for a haircut? I don't think that's for "prompt
              service". I hate that actually but I feel obligated.
              \_ I tip for haircuts.
              \_ Yes because I don't want my hair butchered the next time I
                 go back.  Will they ruin the buffet when they see me coming
                 in the next time?  I don't tip at retail clothing stores or
                 at the post office or the water company either.
                 \_ Tipping rules are based on how people are paid, not on
                    whether or not it will ensure better service.  http://tipping.org
                    is the closest thing to a definitive reference that I've
                    found.  -tom
                    \_ http://tipping.org?  I haven't been there.  Is that one of the
                       sites inhabited by the waiters who say you should tip
                       15% even if they spit in your food and 25% or higher if
                       they bother to refill your water glass?
                       \_ No.  But I see you have your mind made up already,
                          based on nothing other than your own cheapness. -tom
                          \_ You see what you want to see.  I asked a question.
                             Thanks for answering it.  Bite me on the rest.
                          \_ I've seen those sites too.  I'm not cheap, but
                             I don't think "15% as a BARE MINIMUM" is a policy
                             I'm inclined to follow.
                             \_ Then, yes, you are cheap.  Waitstaff salaries
                                are set based on a presumption of a 15% tip.
                                (In the U.S.).  Spending less than that is
                                cheap and a breach of etiquette, no matter
                                what the service was like.  -tom
                                \_ I'm with tom up to a point.  It's also
                                   accepted that if the service was crap, 10%
                                   is reasonable.  That's what I do.  I assume
                                   the person is just having a bad day, even
                                   though I could be totally wrong.
                                \_ And bad/rude service isn't a breach of
                                   etiquette?
                                   \_ Etiquette doesn't allow you to
                                      retaliate for breaches of etiquette. -tom
                                      retaliate for breaches of etiquette.
                                      Or rather, there is an etiquette to the
                                      ways you can retaliate.  -tom
                                \_ I'm also with Tom up to the point of "no
                                   matter what the service was like"--if a
                                   waiter gives you bad service, do not tip.
                                   I've been absolutely flabbergasted at some
                                   of the shit waiters expect people to put up
                                   with.  -John
                          \_ Thanks for answering my question.  You can bite me
                             on your bullshit opinion.  You know nothing.
                 \_ Hair butchered? think about that for a second. if they
                    butcher your hair you won't go back. that is their
                        \_ yes but I still have to wear it for 2+ weeks and
                           people are stupid like that.
                           \_ Well, at worst you could turn it into a buzz.
                              And wear a hat.
                           \_ A good hair salon can fix that, usually.  -John
                    incentive and that's what it should be. Why doesn't
                    the post office let your mail get butchered unless
                    you tip well? It kind of makes sense for services where
                        \_ who would I tip?
                           \_ All of 'em! Leave tips in your mailbox for the
                              mailman, or else the mail is mysteriously
                              in bad shape. Tip the guy at the counter, or
                              else he might just forget about your mail
                              for a few days, or take forever to do what
                              you want. I dunno.
                           \_ Missing the point.
                           \_ the mailman? the guy at the counter?
                              \_ you think if I tip the mm I'll get my
                                 packages delivered faster?  does he not
                                 earn enough?  a long time ago in a place far
                                 far away when the mailman went door to door
                                 and most people knew theirs by name my parents
                                 gave them christmas gifts and such but I've
                                 got a new one every day, they drive by in a
                                 jeep and all they deliver is junk mail
                                 anyway.  :)
                                 \_ Heh. well, according to the hair-butchering
                                    theory, maybe the mailman should be losing
                                    and/or damaging and/or stealing yer mail...
                                    actually that reminds me, last year I had
                                    a package I absolutely needed the same day,
                                    but missed the mailman, so I drove around
                                    the neighborhood and eventually found the
                                    guy. It was the first time I'd talked to
                                    him ever, but he knew our house and
                                    we had a nice little chat. He was a little
                                    odd, but he's a postal employee so that was
                                    to be expected. Nice guy. I don't see why
                                    they shouldn't be getting stuff while
                                    others do. Then again my current mailman
                                    always delivers the previous tenant's mail
                                    even though I have a note there and always
                                    mark it to send back. K I'll stop rambling.
                                    \_ They shouldn't be getting tips
                                       (customarily) because their wages
                                       are not based on the presumption that
                                       they get tips.  You can't use logic
                                       to figure it out; you can only learn
                                       the etiquette rules.  -tom
                    you probably never see the person again, like when you
                    are travelling or in the city and getting service from
                    various people for whom the anticipated tip is a good
                    incentive. But for my regular haircut it feels stupid.
                    Still do it of course.
        \_ Whores!
        \_ do you tip the cable guy when they install your broadband cable
           service?
           \_ I did for my satellite installer because the guy went way
              out of his way, giving me his personal cell # and coming
              back later that day to make up for the head office fucking
              up horribly. That wasn't about customary etiquette, that
              was just me saying "Thanks for not making me wait another
              week for them to reschedule you." -bz
        \_ I don't tip at places where I have to go to a counter to get my
           food or where I have to bus my own table.
           \_ what if they serve you drinks and clean your table after you
              leave?
              \_ If they serve drinks, I tip as I'm served (usually $1 per
                 drink).
        \_ I used to tip at Souplantation and then I realized this was
           becoming weird.  Then the price increased by a couple bucks.
           After googling a bit, I am going to go back to tipping $1-2, but
           the Asian folks I'm usually with never tip.
           the Asian grad students I'm usually with never tip.
           \_ "give what you can, without hurtin' yo'self" - old Telegraph
                beggar by Wells Fargo teller on Bancroft
                \_ Oh my God! It's been 10 years since I saw that guy.
                   Last time I was in Berkeley I walked by that teller
                   and thought of him, but he wasn't there. My friends and
                   I still mention this guy from time to time. Hilarious
                   to find him show up in MOTD! Thanks MOTD! BTW, I think
                   it was: "Whatever you can spare without hurtin' yo'self."
                   \_ I don't remember him. I remember "Pat" who smelled
                      like piss and didn't say anything (and patted his head
                      all day), that Starr fellow, the bucket-drumming guy,
                      the little groups of street punks with, for example,
                      mini suitcase locks in their nose, and the 3-card-monte
                      guy who was an asshole and could get hostile. I think
                      there was another black semi-hostile beggar/demander.
                      \_ Do you remember RAR?
                         \_ I believe that's "RAAAAARRRRR!!!!!!!!!!".
2006/3/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42276 Activity:nil
3/16    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060316/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_air_assault
        We're launching major assaults and killing all the insurgents! We're
        winning the war on terror! Yee haw!!!                   -neo con troll
        \_ http://www.blackanthem.com/World/military_2006031411.html
           \_ "The Arab genious for failure could still spoil everything..."
              This sounds like "White man's Burden" again!
2006/3/16-18 [Computer/HW/Memory] UID:42277 Activity:nil
3/16    Mr. Phelps, this thumbdrive will self-destruct in 5 seconds:
        http://tinyurl.com/pqkd4 (everythingusb.com)
2006/3/16-17 [Uncategorized] UID:42278 Activity:nil
3/16    Do you tip your girlfriend for cooking up a great meal? How about
        when she gives you a great blow job? The rationale is that if I
        tip now, she'll give me the same quality of blow job as before.
        Aside from blow jobs, what else should you tip?
2006/3/16-17 [Recreation/Travel, Recreation/Media] UID:42279 Activity:high
3/16    I have an expensive hobby. I have a few providers I found through
        my friend's escort connections. There are a few providers and
        AMPs I go to frequently and I really enjoy some of them. Anyways,
        after they provide full services, how much should I tip them? For
        some providers, even if I don't tip I still get great services
        from them.
        \_ Err, what is your hobby, visiting prostitutes?
           \_ I think that's it.  I'm guessing AMP = Asian Massage Parlor.
2017/09/26 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/26    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:March:16 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>