2/18 Now here's an excellent reason to put a child in the SF public
school system.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/02/19/SPED.TMP
\_ I'm going to make a prediction. I predict that the GOP is planning
a frontal attack on public education within the next year, and that
talking points are being distributed through their usual channels
in anticipation of that attack. You can jump up and down and flame
me, and say that's crazy now, but I'll just repost this whole thread
in a year, when we're hearing a new proposal to phase out free
public k-12 education in America.
\_ So, are you anti-vouchers? If so, what's your reasoning?
Or, do you really believe the GOP wants to completely phase
out free public education? Also, if you're so sure about
your prediction, why not sign your name? -jrleek
\_ I am 100% pro-vouchers, and yes, I believe that the long-term
goal of those at the top in the GOP is the destruction of
all social services.
\_ Well, I'm with you on vouchers, but I think your fear
of associating your name with your prediction shows
that you know the prediction is BS and your belief
really only amounts to paranoid delusion. -jrleek
\_ I believe in a totally anymous motd. Part of the
reason for that is that I think anonymity helps remove
ego from discussions. I find claims by people like you
that the only reason people don't sign is cowardice
to be childish and stupid. If you really care, I'll
just email you. Do you care?
\_ I didn't say the only reason people don't sign
is cowardice. I often don't sign myself, and I
would appreciate a completely anonymous motd, so
people wouldn't get "outted" by lamers. But
in this case you not only made a specific
prediction, but bragged that you'd come back and
rub it in any flamer's faces when it came true.
This suggests that you want the "benifit" of
being right, but don't want to pay the "price"
of being wrong. That actually does sound like
cowardice to me. I don't really care who you
are, I just suggest that if you're going to
"call people out" you should have the guts to
sign your name. That said, I'm sure not going
to remember this in a year. -jrleek
\_ okay, if i was a poor person and my children flunked out
of highschool i would start sueing schools for them not
having provided special education and ruining my childs life.
I would start sueing every school and get poor people to sue
school after school. it's the only way for the poor to make
money.
\_ I want to go kill the fucking parents, piece of shit.
\_ Yeah, me too. Evil manipulative fuckers.
\_ Um, when did Woodside become part of San Francisco?
\_ 1. SFUSD is a recent favorite motd target. 2. SFUSD is
probably an easier mark with deeper pockets.
\_ Hey, I was a frustrated youth too! I should sue for a million
dollars as well.
\_ The State of California is required to provide education to
all children. Unsurprisingly, special needs kids are not often
catered to. It's not uncommon for those parents to sue to get
the education their child needs. Maybe these parents took
advantage of that or maybe not. It's not clear the what extent of
services their child may need.
\_ How would you ever legally decide whether a child actually
"needs" a service? Horseback lessons? It's patently obvious
that while all children could benefit from that, no child
actually requires it. Same goes for a private schooling
across the country. The school they chose had no special
services, it was just away from home and small.
\_ Things like that can make a big difference. With children
who have special needs, class size is a huge factor,
for instance. As someone else said below, an army of
therapists, doctors, teachers, and so on must all be
involved in deciding that a child has special needs. I
am surprised at the callous and uninformed responses in
this thread. It's possible this couple manipulated the
system. However, what evidence do we have of that?
\_ I am a bit confused. You say "an army of therapists, etc."
are involved in deciding a child has special needs? An
army? 11% of all students 6 to 13 receive some special
ed (http://www.nichcy.org/pubs/research/rb2txt.htm And
an army is required to certify each child? I fail to see
how that army scales to 11% of the student population.
Ref please.
\_ Don't take the word 'army' literally. The point is
that parents can't just make this stuff up. There
are a lot of people involved in the process. My
nephew is 9 and autistic. Each year he gets evaluated
by at least 3-4 different people in addition to
his own doctors and teachers. He has probably been
seen by 30-40 different professionals by now. It's
not like his parents can just make stuff up. In fact,
in my experience they tend to score him as more
functioning than he really is, probably for a
combination of financial and practical reasons.
(It's easy for him to fake being 'normal' for an
hour session, but it's quite eye-opening to spend the
weekend with him.) One social worker can handle a
lot of cases, for instance, so don't worry about
the numbers game. Just rest assured that the government
(including school districts) doesn't easily cough up
wads of cash to any dipshit parents who claim their kid
has issues. From what I see, for the most part kids
who should be receiving services are not and not
the other way around.
\_ OK, so the "army" was just hyperbole. Now have
you read the sfgate article? There, the Woodside
parents are doing "'unilateral placement--enrolling
a child in a private school, then billing the
district for tuition". IOW, they bypassed that
\_ OK, so the "army" was just hyperbole, and you
extrapolated from your experience with one nephew.
Now have you read the sfgate article? There, the
Woodside parents are doing "'unilateral placement--
enrolling a child in a private school, then billing
the district for tuition". IOW, they bypassed that
"army" and hired their own special ed expert to find
a prep school, and then the Woodside parents hired
a lawyer to sue the school district so the district
would pay for tuition and family travel cost to
visit the child in Maine.
a prep school in Maine. Then the Woodside parents
hired a lawyer to sue the school district so the
district would pay for tuition and family travel
cost to visit the child in Maine. In fact, according
to the artcle, of 3763 special ed kids who filed
complaints last year, the distrcits had secret
settlements with 90% of them.
cost to visit the child in Maine. Nor does it seem
that the Woodside child was all that disabled.
Even the mother said "He's a model child". His
problem? "[H]is frustration and anxiety were so
high that [he could] turn to drugs...".
\_ Actually, I am not using just one data point.
I met a psychology professor whose specialty
is 'special education' and he referred me to
a private practice attorney who deals with
filing suits against school districts. The
way it works is that the district drags its
feet until confronted with parents who are
willing to do something about them. Then they
pay up because it's actually cheaper to pay
the parents than to solve the initial
problem. They don't do so until there has
been a mountain of evidence amassed against
them (i.e. they feel they will lose the
case). This is where the expert testimony and
evaluations come in. I don't know if these
parents were full of shit or not, but I am
appalled at the responses nonetheless.
\_ Did you read the article? It's obvious
they are full of shit. If you don't know
then you're an idiot.
\_ Why are you appalled? Did you read the
article? It's obvious that things like
horseback riding aren't needed. And in
this case of the small school across
the country, that's complete bull also.
From the article, the parents put the
kid there WITHOUT having any specific
reason, just the mother's whim basically.
If you think that's fair to the taxpayers
then you can fuck yourself.
\_ Now, 90% of complaints are settled by the
school districts. It seems difficult to
settle 90% of the time and at the same time
require "a mountain of evidence amassed
against them". In fact, the only way I think
90% settlement can be explained is if the
school district bends over like a cheap whore
on speed.
\_ If you don't know anything about the
process then just say so.
\_ Given a choice between anonymous motd
assurances from someone with a vested
interest in the system or sfgate,
interested in the system or sfgate,
I'll run with sfgate.
\_ Thanks for posting this. What a ridiculous ass story. I bet
that kid doesn't have a single thing wrong with him, except
that he has a psychotic bitch of a greedy mother. No wonder
he has "anxiety".
\_ I know who this family is. Is anybody prepared to terrorize
them if I provide the name?
\_ Do you mind if I ask how you know it's them?
\_ I don't have the time, money, or personal bandwidth to do it,
but I think it would be poetic justice to bring civil suit
against them for extortion/theft of public services or the
like. -dans
\_ It doesn't even matter. Technically speaking you don't have
standing to sue anyway.
\_ Gee, isn't this vigilantism?
\_ Yup. -dans
\_ No vigilantism would be if you firebombed their
house. This is using the legal system to bring
about justice.
\_ It's vigilante use of the courts. Of course, I
don't really mind this since I'm not opposed to
all vigilante acts (eg the Billboard LIberation
Front is non-violent, usually thought-provoking,
and makes good art). Using the courts for
vigilante justice is much safer than the street
variety since the formal bureaucratic procedures
of the courts provide some level of check against
the chance of `bad' or unjust acts being
successfully completed. Then again, there's
always the possibility for abuse. Many
organizations (eg the RIAA) use the legal system
the way a corner street thug uses a gun or
baseball bat. -dans
\_ So is their kid really a 'tard or just a typical
underachieving teen?
\_ So how do children get certified as needing special ed?
\_ doctor's evaluations, state and/or private, administrators,
teachers, etc., etc.
\_ In addition to the above, the process also hinges on an
advocate willing to badger and harrass. This is true both
for legitimate and illegitimate cases.
\_ It would be interesting to see what percentage of special
ed application is rejected.
\_ Probably not as many as you would think. More likely is
that an application without an active advocate will
simply be set aside.
\_ It's easy to get approved for 'special ed' (usually
just a diagnosis). It's hard to get approved for
special ed outside of the district and/or to get
money from the district to pay for additional
services. Also, as someone above said, without a
strong advocate your case will languish for years.
Many parents cannot afford such a person/people
(usually a social worker, a doctor, and an attorney).
Districts will otherwise practice a policy of
appeasement, giving in here and there over time to
avoid actually doing everything they should be.
Note that there are some good districts. I am
referring to the bad ones, which are most of them in
California.
\- You know I think one of the "right' outcomes
would be for the reporters in cases like this to
give the names of the parties involved. Journalists
makes sometimes make wild claims based on the
"public's right to know" but often they or their
editors filter it through a bit of an agenda.
For example in union strike coverage they often
dont list the salaries involved. The recent
muscisian strike was an interesting exception.
\_ Now, this is what confuses me. At first the poster
above says "an army of therapists, doctors, teachers,
and so on must all be involved in deciding that a
child has special needs." Now you tell me it's
easy to get approved. OK, so you say certification
as needing special ed is easy, it's getting approved
for outside resources that's hard. But isn't the
original articl all about parents skipping the
outside special ed process altogether, and then
sueing afterwards for the expenses? If the system
is set up so that certification to be eligible for
special ed is easy (your claim), and then sueing for
outside services rendererd is easy (sfgate's claim),
isn't that just asking for trouble?
\_ OK, so you say certification as needing special ed
is easy, it's getting approved for outside resources
that's hard. But isn't the original articl all
about parents skipping the outside special ed
process altogether, and then sueing afterwards for
process altogether, and then suing afterwards for
the expenses? If the system is set up so that
certification to be eligible for special ed is
easy (your claim), and then sueing for outside
non-preapproved services rendererd is easy (sfgate's
easy (your claim), and then suing for outside
non-preapproved services is easy (sfgate's
claim), isn't that just asking for trouble?
\_ You will only win a suit if there is evidence
supporting your case. You can send your kid
to boarding school in Switzerland and bill
the district for it, but you will lose unless
you have built a good case. Therefore, suing
for outside services (preapproved or not)
is not easy unless your case might win. It is,
however, easier than actually getting the school
district to provide those services themselves.
This is what the professor told me in so many
words. Keep asking the district for what you
need and let them tell you 'no'. It works out
better for everyone that way. If they say
'yes' and then half-ass it it becomes much
more difficult to prove that the program is
substandard and the school pays as much or
more money in the end anyway while your kid
fritters away in useless classes for 2-3-4-5
years of valuable time while the case goes
through the legal process. This is why many school
districts would rather pay kids who genuinely
need special help to go where they can
receive it. It's better for the kids and
cheaper/easier for the district. |