Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:December:09 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/12/9-11 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:40929 Activity:high
12/8    Housing bubble? Yes yes yes!
        \_ You know, I really do honestly feel bad for the younger people
           here who weren't able to buy a house years ago and now just can't
           but posting articles that say housing is going to fall back to
           more normal levels of price growth and screaming "bubble! bubble!"
           is not going to make housing prices drop.  The article you posted
           but didn't read did make me wonder how many of the 800,000
           construction jobs are legally held, though, and what increase,
           if any, we'll see in unemployment claims as housing goes slowly
           from "way too hot" to "normal expected growth rates".
           \_ I don't have generous Asian parents so I've been trying to
              save enough money for a decent down payment. BTW I graduated
              almost a decade ago. But no matter what, it seems like the
              price of homes in the past 5 years keep outpacing the
              rate at which I can save up. I'm at an age where I really
              want a home *now* but it's impossible. Almost everyone older
              than me say that I should buy a home. But it's so easy for
              them to say that when they bought their homes several years
              ago when the prices aligned with income and savings. Now it's
              all out of wack. Had I been older and saved up, of course
              I'd buy a home. Life is arbitrary and random, and this whole
              home buying deal is even more arbitrary and makes life seem
              so meaningless. Do I feel bitter? Of course I do. And I'm not
              the only person who feel this way.
              \_ My theory is that this is the result of all the tax cuts.
                 With wealth so much easier to generate, the people with
                 money can easily generate and keep more after taxes.  Couple
                 that with $250k tax free profit (if you're single), meant
                 lots of people could speculate on less desireable locations,
                 like Modesto or Gilroy.
                 \_ The tax cuts were trivial as a percentage of income for
                    people in upper brackets.  Going from 70 to 50 was a big
                    cut.  Going from 50 to 39 was a big cut.  No recent tax
                    cuts were of any note.
              \_ Yes, life is unfair.  I have no easy answer for you.  Have
                 you looked in other parts of the country?
                 \_ That is, in fact, the easy answer. Some people in the Bay
                    area don't seem to have any conception of how out of whack
                    prices are there, even compared to other "expensive" regions
                    back east and in the Northwest.  I live about 70 miles from
                    nyc, and I know people who are paying mortgages on
                    decent homes with a grad student stipend.  That would be
                    harder now than it was three years ago, but still doable.
                    I'd say housing where I live, where everyone is complaining
                    about prices is roughly a factor of ten cheaper than the
                    Bay area.  Is the Bay a factor of 10 more desirable?  Not
                    to me.
              \_ Your problem is that you are not financially savvy. Saving up
                 for a downpayment is silly. I used to think like you. I
                 was trying to save $50K to put down on a (then) $200K
                 house. However, interest rates got so low and lenders got
                 so lax that I didn't have to save that much in the end. I
                 bought my house for $10K out of pocket. Sure, I didn't
                 have much equity then, but I sure do now. I think you are
                 too tentative. You could've had a house by now and now
                 it's too late (for this real estate cycle). I bought my
                 house when I made $40K/year less than I do now and so did
                 many of my friends. It was difficult to make the payment.
                 If you are expecting to magically "save up" to buy a
                 house stress-free and also buy (say) all of the gadgets
                 you do right now then you will never make it. If you
                 graduated 10 years ago then you missed your chance. I
                 feel badly for the kids who graduated 2 years ago, but
                 that's not you.
                 \_ I graduated two days ago.  Can I feel bitter? -!pp
                    \_ Sure, but your situation isn't so bad. When you are
                       ready to buy in 3-7 years housing will probably be
                       more affordable. I'd like to add that if I was
                       saving that $50K I'd probably have it about now,
                       5 years later, and it wouldn't do me any good. Even
                       making $40K more I probably couldn't buy my own
                       house and my mortgage payment (after interest
                       deductions) is less than many 'housing bubble whiners'
                       are paying for rent. Your first house is always a
                       stretch to buy, but to me it's been totally worth it.
                       Even if it hadn't more than doubled in value, but
                       merely stayed flat it would've been a great buy.
                       Heck, I think I'd be happy even if the value had
                       fallen somewhat. Home ownership is that important
                       to me. Maybe it is less important to others. If it
                       is important to you and you can afford it then do
                       it, whatever will happen to the market.
              \_ I graduated in 1993 and my Asian parents are not generous to
                 me at all.  Yet I managed to buy a house in 2000 while putting
                 my sister thru Cal (paying out of state tuition) and then
                 supporting my parents with $1k/mo (non-tax-deductible).  And
                 no I didn't make big bucks from dot-com stock options.  I
                 think it's just a matter of what fancy car you drive, how
                 often you eat out, and how many vacation trips you go in a
              \_ Don't feel too bad. In the Bay Area these days it takes
                 two incomes to make a housing payment. You will probably
                 be able to afford a starter home when you have a spouse.
              \_ Just rent for now, and be flexible with your home buying
                 plan.  Don't listen to the stupid advice asking you to
                 put money saved for a housing downpayment in a CD.
                 There are lots of ways to invest and make money.  Take
                 the stock market for instance.  I've been getting 30%
                 annual return the last 3 years.  That will double your
                 money fast, and unlike a house, it's liquid.  And the
                 S&P500 aggregate PE ratio is lower now than when it was
                 in 2002, unlike the ridiculous price/rent ratios of
                 homes in the Bay Area.
                 money fast, and unlike a house, it's liquid, so unlike
                 money fast.  Also, it's liquid, so unlike
                 a house, you are not stuck in a single type of investment.
                 And the S&P500 aggregate PE ratio is lower now than when
                 it was in 2002, unlike the ridiculous price/rent ratios of
                 homes in the Bay Area.  Now some will claim that stocks
                 are risky, but the housing market is just as risky,
                 especially now.  And check out Japan, Hong Kong,
                 Singapore, etc. over the last 15 years and you will see
                 how badly home prices can fall.
                 how badly home prices can fall.   - homeowner
                 \_ A first home is not an investment. Don't treat it like
                    one or think of it like one.
2005/12/9-11 [Uncategorized] UID:40930 Activity:nil
12/7    How do I add pictures to
        \_ I think you need to work there.
2005/12/9-11 [Uncategorized] UID:40931 Activity:nil
12/8    Where can I find the controversial SFPD video? -ausman
           \_ Thanks for the four clips on the website.
              Is the whole thing available anywhere?
2005/12/9-11 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:40932 Activity:low
12/8    How do I make a non-italicized greek letter in Latex?
        \_ If you use them as mathematical characters, they're
           always variables. (I know this doesn't help much.)
        \_ Thanks to the person who nuked my reply. Most fonts probably
           do not have non-italic Greek, and most LaTeX packages probably
           don't support non-italic Greek. You need a font that has glyphs
           for non-italic Greek (probably you can find some native Greek
           fonts for this) and then a package that has options where
           you can select those glyphs (like, say, the MinionPro pkg).
           \_ You hit the nail on the head, dude.  Thanks.  I just put
              in a modern greek language font, and am using that without
              going into the math environment at all.  Problem solved (although
              I briefly ended up with my whole 180 page document in greek
              characters when I put my  {} in the wrong place, which was
              \_ You're welcome. Glad it worked out. --dude
2005/12/9-11 [Uncategorized] UID:40933 Activity:nil
12/9    Innocent Israeli civilians are...
2005/12/9-11 [Recreation/Dating, Recreation/Computer/Games, Recreation/Humor] UID:40934 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
12/9    New game teaches female sexual gratification: -John
2005/12/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40935 Activity:nil
12/9    Someone posted this below.  I read it for school but had forgotten it
        until now.  I think it's worth a repost on its own:
        \- "if you liked the melian dialog" ...
           you may also wish to read 1. the agricola [short]
           2. the germania [short] 3. all of thucydides history of the pel
           war [long] especially say the declaration against megara.
           if you are really interested in the pel war, you can read
           the D. Kagan series, but that is pretty tough going.
           it begins with btw, D KAGAN is sort
           of a crazy right wing loose canon. BTW, i'm not a normative
           believer in might makes right. i list  the mel dialog for aesthetic
           reasons. for a framework about how to think about power and
           the international system, see "theory of international politics"
           by k.n. waltz. however "man the state and war" is really a
           prerequisite to TIP ... both are very very good, but TIP is a little
           hard to follow ... it is denser than you might think.
           btw, the melian dialog has come up many times over the years
           here. see /csua/lib/wall archive. --danh
           \- "It was the business of a diplomat to cloak the interests of
              this country in the language of universal justice."
              --Minister Walewski to OBISMARCK
2005/12/9-11 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:40936 Activity:nil
12/9    Anyone know why Java requires super() to be the first thing in the
        \_ Probably because if it's not, you're risking that operations are
           being done using a partially constructed object.
2005/12/9 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:40937 Activity:nil 100%like:40939
12/9    nazi werewolves
2005/12/9-11 [Computer/SW/Languages, Computer/HW/CPU] UID:40938 Activity:nil
12/9    Does anyone know if there are FOSS diff tools that are somewhat
        syntax-aware? E.g., it would understand that comments and whitespace
        don't matter (well, for languages where it doesn't), and that
        expressions can span several lines but still be the same? It doesn't
        even have to be smart enough to strip redundant sets of parentheses
        or anything. Thanks.
        \_ Compile the code and "cmp" the binaries. :-)
        \_ Canonicalize the sources and diff those, e.g. run through a
           pre-processor and auto-indenter?  Or, get your hands on MOSS,
           depending on what you're trying to do?
2005/12/9-11 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:40939 Activity:nil 100%like:40937
12/9    nazi werewolves
        \_ LOL. I've been waiting 2 years for someone to bring that up.
           Cf. the Lars von Trier film "Zentropa" (aka Europa). Now stop
           bothering to come up with analogies between these guys and the
           current Iraqi issue.
           \_ Huh?  -John
2005/12/9-11 [Industry/Startup] UID:40940 Activity:moderate 77%like:40941
12/9    Looking for a job? Come work with us at AvantGo (now a service of
        iAnywhere Solutions).  It's fun and neat and all that stuff. Take a
        look at /csua/pub/jobs/AvantGo for the latest postings, and feel free
        to drop me a line with questions or whatnot. --dbushong (i'm lazy)
        \_ "iAnywhere Solutions"?  Ugh.  -tom
           \_ it doesn't matter what name the marketing department comes up
              with for a product or service.  it'll be changed next quarter
              anyway.  it only matters what they pay and how good/bad it is
              to work there.
              \_ How many companies with awful names like that can you point
                 to as successes?  -tom
                 \_ Pretty much all of them.  WTH does "Pepsi" mean?  It's a
                    silly made up word but you own stock in it.
                    \_ Pepsin.  It's named after an enzyme which helps
                    \_ Pepsidase.  It's named after an enzyme which helps
                    \_ If you think "Pepsi" sounds anything like
                       "iAnywhere Solutions", there's no point talking to
                       you.  -tom
                       \_ Both are stupid. I own stock in neither.  What does
                          Pepsi mean anyway?
                          \_ Pepsi is a much better name than CarbBev or
                             something, which is what iAnywhere is akin to.
                          \_ Perhaps it peps you up?  Kinda like Dr.
                          \_ "Kodak" was specifically chosen because it didn't
                             mean anything.  I agree with tom, if you can't
                             see why "Pepsi" is a better name than "iAnywhere
                             Solutions" then the discussion is useless.
                             \_ It isn't as bad.  It is still stupid.  And
                                none of this has anything to do with whether
                                or not it's a good place to work.  If you
                                are actually specifically aware that it sucks
                                to work there or they pay low, let us know,
                                otherwise, bagging on the name is idiotic
                                and trollish especially considering this is
                                job posting which might be helpful for someone
                                who is.. ya know.. looking for a job.  If you
                                don't have any real information about working
                                there, you are contributing nothing.  We can
                                all see the name without your questionable
                                \_ "Pepsi" is a simple, evocative name.
                                   Apple, Sun, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft.
                                   I'm not telling anyone not to work there,
                                   I was just making a comment, although I
                                   would add that the company will definitely
                                   not exist under that name 10 years from
                                   now, and choosing a name like that
                                   would worry me as to what level of clue
                                   the people steering the ship have.  -tom
                                   \_ So apple gets to name all of their
                                      products iProducts but other companies
                                      can't use the same naming scheme?
                                      \_ First of all, it's not a product
                                         name, it's a company name.  Second
                                         of all, Apple's i-products are
                                         noun-based, which makes them sound
                                         far less stupid than "iAnywhere."
                                         (Though tangible nouns, like iTunes,
                                         work better than others, like iLife).
                                         And third, when you're several years
                                         late to the iParty it just sounds
                                         pathetic.  Get your own schtick. -tom
                                         \_ I don't disagree it's stupid, but
                                            it's not stupid enough to rant
                                            at length about it, that's all.
                                            \_ tom's first reply was *1* line!
                                            \_ Pepsi is a multi-Billion dollar
                                               product and the only way they
                                               get people to drink their
                                               product, which is much worse for
                                               you and yet much more expensive
                                               than ordinary tap water, is by
                                               marketing.  So saying Pepsi is
                                               bad/stupid marketing is kind of
                                               arguing against the facts.
                                               \_ They're #2 last I checked.
                                                  Maybe if they didn't have
                                                  such stupid marketing they'd
                                                  be #1 over the other company
                                                  that sells expensive and
                                                  unhealthy drinks?
                                                  \_ Pepsi has been making
                                                     big gains versus Coke
                                                     as per yesterday's
                                                     \_ Who is #1 and #2?  "If
                                                        we can get just 10% of
                                                        this multi-billion $$$
                                                        market we'll be set!"
                                                        If I had a dime for
                                                        \_ Coke $100 B,
                                                           Pepsi $98.2 B
                    \_ It is called that because it originally contained pepsin
                       and Pepsi-Cola sounds better than Pepsin Cola
                \_ There is a third and perhaps fourth criterion that some
                   of use to decide whether to work at a place or not. One
                   is "are they going to be successful"? It sucks to spend
                   years of your life working on a failure. Also, you can
                   make a lot of money with stock options in a successful
                   company. Fourth, does it do anyone any good? I prefer to
                   work at companies where I can see the benefits of the
                   product the company offers. -ausman
                   \_ You can't predict success.  If you could you'd be way
                      better off investing in individual stocks than working
                      for a single company for years.  Does it do anyone
                      any good?  I dunno.  I haven't seen the market research
                      into whatever it is they do.  I'm only saying that
                      dismissing a job opportunity because some temp in
                      marketing had a clever idea that quarter is a weak
                      reason to do so.  Why is iAnywhere any better or worse
                      than "Snapfish" posted below which got no comments from
                      the peanut gallery?
                      \_ Because Snapfish is a good name?
                         \_ It is?  What does it mean?
                            \_ I always figured it was like a snapper pussy.
                               That's what it sounds like to me.  Not a bad
                               name as long as all you sell is sex toys.
                            \_ You keep worry about what a name means.
                               That's not what's important in a corporate
                               name.  "eBay" doesn't mean anything, but it's
                               a highly successful identity.   -tom
                               \_ So Pepsi and eBay are good names because
                                  they're successful but iAnything is unlikely
                                  to be successful because it has a bad name.
                                  So if you're wrong and they're successful
                                  does that magically make it a good name?
                                  You're going in circles here.
                                  \_ No, Pepsi and eBay are good names because
                                     they're simple and distinctive.   -tom
                                     \_ eBay is a stupid name for a company.
                                     \_ Pepsi is nothing special either.  If
                                        eBay had bombed, you'd say it was a
                                        stupid name, as proved by it bombing.
                                        A lot of dead dotcoms had simple and
                                        distinctive names.  Why are you so
                                        obsessed with the idea that
                                        name=success?  Is your degree in
                                        \_ Unfortunately for you,
                                  is already taken.
                                           \_ You were doing better when you
                                              were silent instead of trying to
                                              reply with something snarky
                                              and almost clever.
                                        \_ I think the original assertion was
                                           "iAnywhere Solutions" is dumb
                                           \_ Which was clarified to mean
                                              "iAnywhere Solutions is going to
                                              fail *because* it has a dumb
                                              \_ Clarified?  I think that's
                                                 a biased extrapolation.
                                                 \_ Sheesh, go re-read what he
                                                    posted.  No extrapolation
                                                    has occured.
                                                    \_ *shrug* I did -- maybe
                                                       you should too.
                                                       \_ i did before posting.
                                                          you really need
                                                          \_ nope.  Thanks,
                                                             \_ He hasn't
                                                                shown up to
                                                                say otherwise.
                                                                I stand by it.
                                                                \_ Whatever
                                                                   floats your
                                                                   boat, dude.
                        \_ Maybe you can predict success and maybe you can't.
                           Of the three companies I have worked for any serious
                           length of time since graduation, two have gone
                           public and the third one (Wired) came damn close.
                           Until recently, I didn't have money to invest
                           so all I had was my time. And yes, I applied for a
                           job at Google (twice even!) but they turned me down.
                           But I agree with your basic premise, which is that
                           you should not dismiss a job opportunity just
                           because the company has a dumb name.
                           \_ Wired sold to Lycos for pennies.  If you weren't
                              one of the top 2 execs or a founder's best
                              friend you got zippo.  Google called me three
                              times (I never applied) but I guess I didn't
                              have the right "I'm in awe of all that is
                              Google" and didn't get an offer the first two.
                              After seeing the place the first two times, I
                              was certain I didn't want to be there and
                              rejected their offer the third time.  I'm quite
                              happy with that decision.  I've been at several
                              other companies that had 'good' names and
                              appeared to have good products but went nowhere.
                              You can't know how a small company will do.  If
                              they're not public already, everything is a
                              secret and they'll lie through their teeth about
                              their situation.  Dumb names: I still think
                              Google is a dumb geeky name, but according to
                              some on this thread, since they were successful,
                              it must be a good name....  And they think
                              *I'm* the troll... sheesh.
                              \_ Wired applied to go public twice in 96 and
                                 even got to the pricing stage the second time
                                 before being pulled. The other two are CPTH
                                 and LGBT, both of which I started working for
                                 in the pre-IPO stage. I agree that it is hard
                                 to guess how a private company is doing but
                                 I have had some luck. Probably dumb luck.
                                 \_ I was at Wired, too.  Did you have any
                                    faith in Beth V.?  She had nothing going.
                                    \_ Who are you? Drop me a line or something.
                                       No, I had no faith in anything any
                                       of the execs there said, except perhaps
                                       AA. -ausman
          \_ Yeah, uh, don't worry about the name.  "iAnywhere Solutions" is
             a wholly owned subsidiary of "Sybase, Inc."  Better?  --dbushong
             \_ Sybase is supposed to reassure people?
             \_ What a stupid name for a company. :-)  -John
2005/12/9-11 [Recreation/Computer, Computer/SW/Security, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:40941 Activity:nil 77%like:40940
12/9    Looking for a job? Come work with us at Snapfish (now a service of HP).
        It's fun and neat and all that stuff. Take a look at
        /csua/pub/jobs/Snapfish for the latest postings, and feel free to
        drop me a line with questions or whatnot. - ajani
2005/12/9-11 [Uncategorized] UID:40942 Activity:nil
12/9    In Google Groups, is there a way to put a footer in the emails?
2005/12/9-11 [Reference/Law/Court] UID:40943 Activity:moderate
12/9    Hey, I'm looking at Tookie's case right now, and it really looks like
        he's being convicted of circumstantial evidence -- and where there are
        witnesses who said he did it, they're all bad people as well and/or who
        are in a position to get something out of testifying against Tookie.
        Tookie had been a thug at the very least, but like I said:  on the
        murder convictions, circumstantial, and questionable witnesses.
        I know that's the way Americans like it -- you can be convicted and
        executed based on circumstantial evidence if a jury makes the
        conclusion that you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
        The crimes themselves are heinous:  Shotgun blasts to a guy lying face-
        down on the floor, and one- and two-shot blasts to two defenseless
        elderly folks and their daughter.
        \_ but he wrote children's books and found jesus on death row!  Free
                                   \_ Which no one has read!
                                      \_ You wouldn't read Tookie's books to
                                         your kids (assuming you had any)?
                                         Why do you hate Tookie?  Free Tookie!
           tookie!  tookie for the nobel peace prize!  nominated 5 times
           already, maybe this is his year!
           \_ that doesn't matter.  this American thinks it's fine to lock him
              up forever no matter how much good he does, but it's not fine to
              execute him if it's a circumstantial case.
              \_ what good has he done?
                 \_ some people say he's a different person and he writes kids
                    books, but I think that hardly is enough for letting him go
                    free based on the evidence provided.  like I said, lock him
                    up forever.
                    \_ some people?  you forget he found jesus on death row and
                       writes children's books and is a 5 time nobel peace
                       prize nominee!  free tookie!
        \_ "Tookie is a very bad man" sounds like you're admonishing your cat.
           "No you can't have my chicken pot pie!  That'a bad Mr. Tookie!"
           \_ MEOW!
           \_ post updated.
        \_ It's very frequent that there is no direct physical evidence, but
           circumstantial evidence can be overwhelming.
           \_ I've seen CSI!  If the glove don't.. oh wait... nevermind.
           \_ I'd by happier if it was "death = no doubt", and "life
              imprisonment = beyond a reasonable doubt".  yeah, this means I
              think you can be executed based on circumstantial, as long as
              there is "no doubt" he did it all -- yeah, you leave it up to the
              jurors to decide what "no doubt" means (but you're already
              leaving it up to them to decide what "reasonable doubt" means,
              which is a tougher concept)
           \_ overwhelming enough to make one certain! ... but not as "a matter
              of fact".  anyway, that's the system, and people like it that
              \_ the standard isn't "certain".  it is "beyond a reasonable"
                 doubt.  feel free to change the entire justice system to one
                 of "certainty" if you'd like.  it'll suck to be a civilian
                 but at least the jails won't be full anymore.
              \- what i think is sad is that people like aldridge ames,
                 robert hanssen, eric rudolf etc have managed to cook up
                 deals to avoid the death penalty. the lesson we learn from
                 the eric rudolf case is "hide a bunch of explosive in the
                 hills before you go on your killing spree so you have
                 something to tradeto have the death penalty taken off the
                 table." i think arguably that is a reasonable use of
                 torture. --psb
              \_ sorry guys, I was being stupid.  I deleted this post but
                 someone restored it for some reason.  New one below:
              \_ sorry guys, but that post was flawed.  stop responding to
              \_ sorry guys, but this post is flawed.  stop responding to
              \_ sorry guys, I was being stupid.  stop responding to
                 it.  I deleted it and someone restored the post for some
                 reason.  New one below (which I wrote before noticing any
                 of the responses):
                 reason.  New one below:
           \_ I'd by happier if it was "death = no doubt", and "life
              imprisonment = beyond a reasonable doubt".  yeah, this means I
              think you can be executed based on circumstantial, as long as
              there is "no doubt" he did it all -- yeah, you leave it up to the
              jurors to decide what "no doubt" means (but you're already
              leaving it up to them to decide what "reasonable doubt" means,
              which is a tougher concept)
              Also, to address what another person wrote, I support "beyond
              a reasonable doubt" on convictions, but "no doubt" on capital
              punishment.  The only thing you change is the sentencing part
              for capital crimes, not "the entire justice system"; you are
              still convicted on "beyond a reasonable doubt".
        \_ how could you execute a man with such soft lips?
           \_ MEOW!  FREE TOOKIE!
2005/12/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40944 Activity:nil
        Norman Podhoretz on Iraq.  Posted mostly because I like the part where
        he bashes the "stability at any cost" types about half way down.
2005/12/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40945 Activity:nil
12/9    Krauthammer manages to make a lot of sense on the Saddam trial (Washington Post)
        \_ Yeah, I've been wondering about this myself.
2005/12/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40946 Activity:nil
12/9    Larry Elder column that basically amounts to a fisking, but it's
        kinda funny:
2005/12/9-11 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:40947 Activity:nil
12/9    Any suggestions for cool (electronic) gadgets for myself or as gifts?
           \_ cool site.
        \_ Sharper Image
           \_ You mean  BTW there is no electronic version yet.
           \_ faker, yer just a troll!!!1
2005/12/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:40948 Activity:low 85%like:40954
12/9    Prince of Russia:
        \_ That is just fucking awesome.  Thanks.  -John
           \_ Parkour also shown in the movie "Banlieue 13".
2005/12/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40949 Activity:nil
12/9    "20 Reported Killed as Chinese Unrest Escalates" [nyt]
        \_ This is apparently just outside Shanwei:
           Not too far away from Hong Kong.
        \_ My favorite part is "there were 74,000 riots or other significant
           public disturbances in 2004".  Wow.
        \_ Only 20?  In a country of 1.6(?) billion....
2018/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:December:09 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>