Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:November:09 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
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2005/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:40501 Activity:nil
11/8    What does "Pied-a-Mer residence" mean?
        \_ I've never heard it before, but I'm guessing it's a pun on
           "pied-a-terre" which means something like second residence.
           "mer" is sea, so I'm guessing it's a secondary, seaside
           house.
           \_ Boat?
2005/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:40502 Activity:nil
11/8    Weldon to reveal new 'Able Danger' details
        Able Danger still receiving near zero media coverage.
        In 10+ years of following politics I have rarely seen anything
        like this in Wash DC.
        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47310
2005/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:40503 Activity:low
11/8    Potential headlines for tomorrow:
        ARNOLD TERMINATED AT POLLS
        \_ Take that republi-monkeys:
           http://vote2005.ss.ca.gov/Returns/sff/prop/00.htm
           \_ Um, yeah, like the SFChron, LATimes, OakTribuine, SacBee-- you
              mean *those* republi-monkeys?
              \_ I don't give a rats ass what a bunch of media flaks think.
                 \_ You know that Republicans were campaigning against 77,
                    right?  -emarkp
        \_ Boy, that was a big waste of money.
        \_ Partisanship has won the day.  No more room for moderates.  CA,
        \_ Partisanship has won the day.  No more room for moderats.  CA,
           you've made Tom DeLay proud.  Dems in CA should ignore R's from now
           on.  R's in the senate should eliminate the filibuster and
           steamroller over anything the D's say.  Good bye sweet America.
           \_ Wow, thanks for censoring my post.  I'll say it again: if
              you're not happy with California then *leave*.
              \_ I'll leave after all the fucking Mormons, er, Morons leave.
                 You may go fuck yourself.
           \_ California's doing just fine, thanks.  Feel free to move
              back to Texas, Florida or wherever it is you came from.
              \_ I've been here my whole life.  My whole family is here.  And
                 yet I'm surrounded by people who will happily hand over their
                 votes to whoever pays the most.
                 \_ Uh, Schwarzenneger paid the most, and got punked.  -tom
                    \_ Uh, no he didn't.  Unions spent $100M, pharmaceuticals
                       spent $80M, which leaves (at most) $70M for Arnold.
                       http://csua.org/u/dz0
                       \_ I must confirm that I got way more mailings and
                          messages on the answering machine from the
                          anti-Ahnold folks.
2005/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40504 Activity:nil
11/8    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051109/ap_on_an/election_analysis
        GWB is a political toxin in Virginia. Dems victory in your
        beloved state. How do you like that Justin Black?
        \_ I love the motd.  From your own link, "Democrats said ... politcal
           toxin".  Why did you feel the need to take your own link out of
           meaningful context?  "Mice say, 'cats are the devil's spawn!'".
           If you were serious you'd be reading and posting something from
           someone more like Sabato who notes that historically there is no
           real evidence either way that an off-term election has any
           predictive value for future elections in any direction.  Looking
           at the CA initiatives which as of *this* moment are all losing,
           one could claim the state is clearly swinging to the right but
           no it is clearly swinging left!  But the reality is the voters
           are much more astute than analysts and party hacks give them
           credit for and mostly actually understand what and who they're
           voting on, case by case.  I know you're just a troll but I was
           hoping to start a worth while discussion.  And what does any of
           this have to do with Justin?  He's just some guy.  He isn't
           channeling GWB or Cheney.
        \_ The party of victimization, group identity politics, and
           government dependency.  What can I say - congratulations on
           trashing the republic?
           \_ Which party is that?  -John
              \_ you'd be a perfect fit.
                 \_ That's what yermom said.  What is this, "I have a
                    secret and won't tell you"?  -John
2005/11/9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:40506 Activity:nil
\_ hello jblack, sign your name. And what's wrong with
              government dependency? You talk as if one ideology
              has absolutely superiority over the other.
        \_ I'm not jblack.  And learn to format.
2005/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:40507 Activity:low
11/9    Anyone in SF want to sell me their gun?
        \_ (Not a SF voter).  Did the anti-gun measure have any teeth, like
           fines, jail time, and someone empowered to enforce it or is it
           a toothless suggestion?
           \_ Read it yourself:
              http://www.sfgov.org/site/election_index.asp?id=33919
              "Section 5. Penalties
              Within 90 days of the effective date of this section, the Board
              of Supervisors shall enact penalties for violations of this
              ordinance.  The Mayor, after consultation with the District
              Attorney, Sheriff and Chief of Police shall, within 30 days from
              the effective date, provide recommendations about penalties to
              the Board."
              The Board of supervisors gets to pick the penalty.  Nice
              democratic proceses.
              \_ Sweet!  So they enacted a law with unknown penalties TBD that
                 could range anywhere from nothing to death for the perp's
                 entire family by public hanging.  ;-)
                 \_ I'd prefer public raping, Pakistani style.
                    \_ I bukake for justice!
                       \_ bukake for great justice!
2005/11/9-10 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:40508 Activity:kinda low
11/9    http://csua.org/u/dyz
        Google.  Don't be evil.  Unless you're us.
        keywords: jet 767 boeing learjet
        \_ I don't get it.  What's evil about having your own jet?  I mean,
           it sounds like they're actually being quite practical by buying
           a used jet and refurbishing it, rather than blowing the budget on
           a Gulfstream.
           \_ How much fuel does a 767-200 use compared to how much a prius
              saves?
              \_ how much sodium is an apple vs. how many calories an orange
                 saves?
                 \_ Google gives bonuses for Prius drivers.  Not for
                    orange/apple eaters.
              \_ I remember reading somewhere that when a 747 loaded with
                 passengers travels from England to Egypt to see the pyramids,
                 the trip back and forth burns more energy than was required
                 to build the pyramids.
                 \_ An almost-fully occupied 747 gets 100 person-miles per
                    gallon.  Much better than most hybrid car when you drive
                 \_ A almost-fully occupied 747 gets 100 miles per gallon per
                    person.  Much better than any hybrid car when you drive
                    solo.  Even better than some SUVs when fully occupied.
                    http://travel.howstuffworks.com/question192.htm
                    \_ Of course, it's not a 747, it's a 767, and it won't be
                       fully occupied.  In the article it's mentioned that
                       "Gore Design" is redoing the interior.  I doubt it will
                       have the capacity as an unmodified 767.  Though we can
                       guess that it's "more than 50".  That makes it more like
                       10 person-miles per gallon (if comparable to a 747).
           \_ Also, they bought it though a tax shelter INC in Delaware.  Nice.
        \_ Last I checked, there weren't any natural-gas, solar, hybrid or
        battery-powered airplanes. If they were up for buying a jet, into
        which they plan to put a lot of people in, their choice is fine.
        \_ I think you may be confusing "evil" with "wasteful".  The fact
           that my rich, well-fed ass is sitting here, posting to motd instead
           of helping children in Uzbekistan, Upper Volta learn their ABCs
           and feeding Dinty Moore beef stew to starving penguins in
           Argentina, is also wasteful and socially irresponsible.  Oh, the
           weltschmerz.  Shoot the rich!  -John
           \_ If you haven't seen it, you whould watch Eat The Rich.  It has
              Lemmy Kilmister in it.
2005/11/9-11 [Computer/SW/Languages/Web] UID:40509 Activity:nil
11/9    Hot buns!  (Barely save for work.)
        http://news.yahoo.com/photo/051108/ids_photos_en/r1836230989.jpg
        "The event was organised to entertain the children by a member of a
        local charity ..."  What kind of idea is it to entertain children by
        having hot models flash their bare bottom?
        \_ Different culture, man.  Personally, I don't think nudity is
           inherently harmful or unhealthy.  That's an american puritanical
           attitude (OMG!  A Breast!  For 2 seconds! Think of the CHILDRENNN!).
                \_ Correct.  Topless beaches not a big deal in non-puritannical
                   societies.  Also, thong bikinis not an issue.
                   \_ Not even for children?
                      \_ Will somebody please think of them?
                      \_ Thong bikinis better for adults with actual goodies
                         to show off.
        \_ Umm.. this kids appear to be 12 and up, and many are on drugs.
           \_ It would have entertained me at age 12.
        \_ http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=gossip&MsgID=9847
           More hot buns for my soda brothers.
        \_ Definitely a nice butt.
2005/11/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:40510 Activity:nil
11/9    French PM announces raft of measures for riot-hit poor suburbs
        http://www.forbes.com/finance/feeds/afx/2005/11/08/afx2324420.html
        \_ Thereby opening France up to yet another round of
           "cheese-eating surrender monkey" jokes.
           \_ Because you know, actually trying to solve problems is bad,
              instead you are supposed to just make the conditions worse,
              that always works!
           \_ In the US, if we have a riot, we know to keep all of residents
              in that area down for the next few decades. That'll teach them.
              Except for sports riots. Those are okay by us! We'll clean those
              up because the white folks would get upset if we didn't.
           \_ Well, have they learned any foreign policy other than
              appeasement?
              \_ it's domestic policy - you have to end up living with these
                 people
                 \_ Not if you send them back where they came from.  France,
                    love it or leave it.
                    \_ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4422422.stm
                       Apparently that's the policy.  Thanks for censoring
                       this.
                 \_ So next time they want more handouts they just riot again?
                    \_ didn't they do that before the bigger riots?
                       are you sure these are handouts?  (don't cherrypick
                       the package)
                       Anyway, in America we do it our way - National Guard
                       and more economic opportunity to begin with, and it
                       works (more or less).
                       In France they do it their way - no shooting at the
                       rioters, letting them do small-time rioting for
                       months/years, then finally giving them a real social/
                       economic pkg after their riot gets bigger.
                       All of a sudden applying the American method (shooting
                       them all) in France would probably make the situation
                       worse.  Whatever works for them.
                       \_ I remember Napoleon uses canons against riot mobs,
                          that worked too... 200 years ago.
                          \- Ultima ratio regum. --louis xiv
                          \- Ultima ratio regum. --louis le grand
2005/11/9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:40511 Activity:nil
11/9    ?????????????????????
        \_ hello jblack, sign your name. And what's wrong with
              government dependency? You talk as if one ideology
              has absolutely superiority over the other.
                \_ I'm not jblack.  And learn to format.
                   \_ I'm not the jblack fetishist, but I've reformated because
                      bad formating hurts my eyes.
                \_ So... why don't you sign YOUR name? -jrleek
                   \_ Because he knows he'd get booted for harassment.
                      \_ Which is typical of "apply the rules to everyone but
                         me" crowd. -emarkp
2005/11/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:40512 Activity:moderate
11/9    Terrorists simultaneously bomb Grand Hyatt, Radisson, and Days Inn
        hotels in Amman Jordan, targeting Westerners / Israelis - 18+ dead,
        120+ injured.
        (yes, they come up with ever more inventive ways to select dates for
        attacks)
        \_ the scary thing is, this is no longer interesting news.
        \_ fyi, Jordanians are at the top when polling on whether bombings
           against Westerners in Iraq, and against Israelis by Palestinians,
           are justifiable -op
           \_ Completely different issue.  Bombing in Iraq is not much
              different than Frensh Resistance in WW2.
              \_ It isn't?  This is another CSUA History Book Fund item.
           http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206
           \_ Every time I read crap like that I have the very brief urge to
              go join the Israeli army.
              \_ Do it.  It is one of few organization which can perform
                 torture and genocide without being prosecuted.
                 \_ Hi troll!  And liar too.
                 \_ No, no.  That's the PLO.  (Or Hamas, etc.) Other side.
           \_ I am surprised that Isreali Jews dare to venture into places like
              Jordan or Egypt. My understanding was that despite normal
              diplomatic relations between those countries and Israel, the Arab
              population of Jordan and Egypt still harbors hostile feelings
              towards Jews (specially in Jordan, where something like 40% of
              population are descendants of Palestinean refugees).
              \_ Look up "Black September".  They have reason to hate the
                 Jordanians even more.  But then again, I guess "rational"
                 doesn't really apply here.  -John
                 \_ I thought King Hussein got broke his back during one of
                    PLO's attack...
                    \_ KH gave up Jordanian claims on the West Bank because
                       he was rightfully afraid that the palestinians were
                       going to take over his country.  It was the easy way
                       out for him and prevented a civil war he couldn't
                       afford and likely would have lost.
        \_ sorry if this is a morbid detail, but in Jordan the date today is
           written as "9/11" (day before month)
           \_ Ah, they thought today is the "Nine Eleven" anniversay.
              \_ Damned dyslexic terrorists.
                 \_ On what date did the Iraq invasion begin?
2005/11/9-11 [Uncategorized] UID:40513 Activity:nil
11/9    What are they doing here?
        http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=morning+musume+lizard
        \_ http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/07/japanese_tv_lizards_.html
           I love it when the subtitles write "He's going to Abe!" --abe
        \_ Looks like a sort of 'Fear Factor' in spite of what the link
           above says.
2005/11/9-10 [Uncategorized] UID:40514 Activity:nil
11/9    jeez -- so many good motd links today, how am i supposed to get
        any work done
2005/11/9-11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/TJB] UID:40515 Activity:nil
11/9    Ahh tjb. Someone referenced him below. Those were good times! Does
        anyone have a "best of tjb" list anywhere? It's sad to see how great
        artists like tjb and kinney have left the motd.
        \_ Well apparently this amckee character is of the tjb flavor ...
           i dunno, just learning about him now in the below thread
           \_ tjb denied a Playboy bunny sex.  amckee was merely a Critical
              Intel Asset.  Sex outranks Intel, on motd anyway.
              \_ True -- and tjb spammed csua with his long sociapathic
                 megalomaniacal rants.  Maybe if we're nice, we can get
                 geordan to republish the classic tjb vs. rosario email.  -mice
                 \_ True.  But amckee moderated csua so dissent against
                    him could not be publicly aired.  As entertaining as
                    the tjb mails were, I think amckee wins for iron-fisted
                    hamhandedness.
                    \_ tjb was never a member of csua, but managed to cause
                       quite a row not only within our organization, but
                       outside of it as well.  He's been a very very colorful
                       character.
                    \_ When did amckee moderate dissent?  I saw pleanty of
                       dissent, and not a bit of moderation.
                       \_ amckee turned on moderation for the csua mailing
                          list so most csua members could not see discussion
                          against his politburo's policy.   I think I said
                          that already. -pp
                          \_ I agree.  This was pretty blatant.
                             The Politburo member(s) who did this might tell
                             themselves they're sparing the general membership
                             from trolls, and this might partially be true, but
                             part of it was also to shield themselves from
                             genuine criticism.
                 \_ Interested parties may contact me directly.  Or you can
                    just look for it.  It's hiding here on soda somewhere.
                    -geordan
           \_ tjb wins.  he is much brighter, and he dares to take on
              professors.
              \_ But amckee was a Critical Intel Asset!
        \_ Get off my dick! -tjb
                       character.  Honestly, this whole motd situation has
                       been so blown out of proportion in terms of its
                       importance and relevance, it's hard to take it all
                       seriously.
        \_ I always felt tjb was more sad than funny, but that might be
           because my brother is schizophrenic.  That's the way he talks
           when he's off his meds.  -tom
2005/11/9-11 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:40516 Activity:nil
11/9    Does anyone know of a web hosting service that provides unix shell
        access that can access IMAP files?  I was looking at 1and1, which
        offers good space/bdw and ssh access, but their mail is maintained
        separately from the hosted files, which is kind of lame.  I'd like
        to be able to easily import or backup IMAP files using something
        like scp.  Thanks! -mds
        \_ price range?
           \_ Yes.
           \_ 1and1 with shell access an 10GB of space is $10/month.  I'd
              like something similar (e.g. < $20/month if possible) that
              has a shared pool of mail and web data.  It would have to be
              less than the cost of co-hosting my own box (which I don't
              have time for right now).  Alternatively, I guess some means
              of doing bulk transfers of IMAP data might work in a pinch, but
              I haven't seen a client capable of doing that? -mds
              \_ Typically your IMAP data is owned by one of the mail server
                 accounts and couldn't be read by your UNIX account.
                 \_ so then you're completely at the mercy of the server
                    backups?  I'd think there would be some way to take
                    a dump of those remote files as well?  Haven't found
                    a thunderbird plug-in or similar to do so, though.
                    \_ belay that, found the link below.  Thanks! -mds_
                       http://gemal.dk/blog/2004/02/19/backup_your_imap_mail
        \_ How about fetchmail?  --dbushong
2005/11/9-11 [Uncategorized] UID:40517 Activity:nil
11/9    Judy Miller "retired" from the NY Times today.
        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/business/09text-miller.html
        \_ Lucky for her it wasn't a forced CIA retirement.
2005/11/9-11 [Computer/SW/OS/OsX, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:40518 Activity:nil
11/9    What do you do when the OSX disk utility (booted from CD) fails
        to repair your primary startup disk and gives you the error:
        "Invalid B-tree node size"? This is an iMac G5 and it cannot boot
        from the Macintosh HD. Any recommendations for data recovery?
        \_ DiskWarrior
           \_ Thanks.
2005/11/9-11 [Reference/BayArea] UID:40519 Activity:nil
11/9    I was thinking of getting a job in the berkeley area and finishing
        my degree at UCB. What are some good tech companies in the area that
        maybe have IT positions?
        \_ In Berkeley, San Jose, or the bay area in general?
         \_ Berkeley, Emeryville. Close enough to easily get to campus for
            classes.
            \_ There are some tech companies in Alameda like Wind River, RGB
               Spectrum.
        \_ what kind of IT?
        \_ what will your degree be in?
        \_ http://hotjobs.com
        \_ What skills do you have (and don't say crossbow)?
2005/11/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/California/Prop, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:40520 Activity:moderate
11/9    Why did people vote against the teacher "5 year probation" prop?
        Seems like only incompetent teachers should worry about that.
        Maybe they miscalculated and "4 years" would have passed?
        \_ Maybe it was a combination of people thinking the current two-year
           probation period was enough and hating Ah-nold.
           \_ Why did people love him before but hate him now? I haven't really
              been paying attention.
              \_ it really started to turn when he decided to mess with the
                 nurses / teachers / firefighters / police.
                 and then people realized he was doing the same ol' "i'm
                 ah-nold" routine, without providing any substance behind the
                 muscle.  and then people realized that it was the CA
                 Republican party that was controlling his agenda.
                 light at the top, actually operated by people smarter than
                 him, just like dubya.
                 \_ Yet here were are with the same old status quo and
                 \_ Yet here we are with the same old status quo and
                    looming deficits and blah blah. Poltics sucks.
                    \_ huh?
                    looming deficits and blah blah. Politics sucks.
                    \_ I liked this story:
        http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teacher10nov10,0,7202054.story
        \_ Why should the employment rules of schools be a political issue
           decided by the uninformed masses based on what sounds good to
           them?  -tom
           \_ We should let the King decide these issues.  Death to the
              plebes!
           \_ Because the uniformed masses are paying for it and it's
              bankrupting the state?
              \_ Let's vote to change police officer's uniforms to
                 pink, while we're at it, since we're paying for them.
                 The idea that schools are bankrupting the state is ludicrous,
                 and in any case, probation length has no effect on the
                 total amount spent.  -tom
                 \_ Errr... talk to any business major about this. -jrleek
                 \_ CA spends ~50% of tax revenue on education. MN (one of the
                    highest ranked if not the highest) spends <30%. I
                    don't know what's wrong, but spending more money on it
                    isn't the answer.
                    \_ Just out of curiosity, what is MN's total tax revenue
                       per capita, including income and property tax.
                       Saying MN spends less than 30% on their schools
                       impresses me not at all since they are still spending
                       far more per student than CA.
                       \_ They have fewer students to educate. CA's
                          problem is all the low income immigrant children
                          who are filling the schools at the same time
                          that their parents don't contribute much to the
                          tax base. Those kids deserve an education, but
                          I think it necessarily won't be one as good as
                          what the kids in, say, MN receive. The failure
                          is thinking that it should/can be.
                    \_ What's the percentage of MN children whose native
                       languge is not English or whose parents' language
                       is not English and how does that compare to CA?
                       \_ So you're saying you want to kick out all the
                          illegals to bring CA costs in line with MN?
                          \_ Sounds good to me.  Might save some ER's down in
                             SoCal as well.
                          \_ No, what I am saying is that demographic
                             factors probably can offer an explanation to why
                             factors probably can offer and explanation to why
                             CA students underpeform despite the state spending
                             lots of money on them. 88% of MN population are
                             white with a tiny hispanic minority.
           \_ I have yet to hear a good explanation for why pre-college teachers
              need tenure.
              \_ Because the incredibly power teacher's union says so.
              \_ Because the incredibly powerful teacher's union says so.
              \_ Because most can get more money working at a different job.
                 They are trading salary for some job security and with the
                 add on of pensions, school districts keeps fairly steady
                 workforce.
                 \_ College professors, yes.  School teachers?  Mostly not.
                    I had one teacher that could hold a real job in the
                    real world K-12.  The rest were "mom" types working for
                    extra take home cash.  "Those who can, do.  Those who
                    can't, teach."
                    \_ So the state should be willing to pay private school
                       prices for teachers? Or should the state should expect
                       to accept a high turnover rate for teachers. Note that
                       most teachers don't get past the five year mark.
                       \_ I think your points are unproven bullshit.
                       \_ What do you mean 'private school prices'? Most
                          private school teachers make less.
                          \_ Where's your evidence?
                             \_ http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm
                                "Private school teachers generally earn less
                                than public school teachers."
                                \_ And it also says at least some of those
                                   private school teachers don't have the
                                   credentials to work at a public school.
                                   It's only fair to compare ones that do.
                                   \_ http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/web/95829.asp
                                      "On average, public school teachers earn
                                      between about 25 to 119 percent more than
                                      private school teachers earn, depending
                                      upon the private subsector... Between
                                      about 2 and 50 percent of this public-
                                      private difference can be accounted for
                                      by differences in teacher characteristics
                                      depending upon the private subsector.
                                      Controlling for differences in teacher
                                      and school characteristics between the
                                      public and private sectors, one observes
                                      a residual difference in the salaries of
                                      teachers that is simply associated with
                                      the sector in which the teacher is
                                      employed."  Anything else I can point you
                                      to to convince you (everyone else is
                                      already convinced) that you are wrong?
                                    \_ I went to a private school (many of
                                       them, in fact) and the teachers always
                                       said they could make more in public
                                       schools but that they didn't want to
                                       deal with public school students,
                                       parents, and administrators. Also, many
                                       teachers are at private schools because
                                       they care about more than a paycheck
                                       (many private schools are religious).
           \_ Why should anything be decided by the uninformed masses based
              on what sounds good to them?  The whole proposition system is
              dumb.
              \_ All Hail Caesar!  Long Live The King!  Democracy is dumb!
                 Why should the same 'uninformed masses' be allowed to vote
                 on anything?  Isn't having the same dumb people choosing
                 their own leaders dumb too?  You're totally right, all the
                 modern dictatorships one could name were much better off
                 with A Strong Noble Leader(tm) than we are with all those
                 dumb uninformed masses running around *gasp* voting! and
                 participating in other things normally reserved for Noble
                 Leader and His Family.  Is there a place I can donate a
                 few bucks to start a CSUA Motd History Book Fund and then
                 can we require that people like this be a certain height
                 before posting here?
                 \- strictly speaking this is more E_RATCHET than E_TOOSHORT
                 \_ Strictly speaking, this comment is considerably more
                    stupid than the one to which it was responding.
                    \_ This falls under the "I know you are but what am I?!"
                       school of debate.  Would you like to add some actual
                       content or are you happy at the "sticks and stones"
                       level?
                       \_ I love the motd. Calling a post that starts out
                          "All Hail Caesar!" and proceeds off on some straw
                          man dictatorship tangent "stupid" really requires
                          clarification? If you actually need it spelled out
                          for you, the response below does a decent job.
                          \_ Here's the difference: the below posted something
                             that makes a point and is worth responding to.
                             You posted noise and then waiting for someone
                             smart to respond and then said, "yeah!  what
                             *he* said!  nyah!"
                 \_ False dilemma.  It's not about democracy vs. dictatorship;
                    it's about pure democracy vs. representational.  Hey,
                    let's have everyone in the nation vote directly on
                    congressional bills too.  Doesn't that sound like a grand
                    idea?  Who needs leaders?  Let's let all the people vote
                    on everything.
                    \_ When your respresentatives no longer represent and the
                       system has gone too far to self correct, there needs to
                       be some form of check/balance to counter the prevailing
                       non-representative system.  In CA we have the prop.
                       system.  It provides the people, you know, the tax
                       payer plebes/victims, a chance to retake control of an
                       out of control system.  It can also be abused and can
                       create bad situations as well, but overall I have a lot
                       more faith in the voters than I do in life long
                       political hacks and beaurocrats.  Pure democracy would
                       likely lead to the people voting themselves goodies from
                       the public trough as they say, but no direct democracy
                       has given us the same problem with corporations and
                       special interest groups and the proposition system is
                       a reasonable attempt to restore power to where it
                       belongs: the people.
2005/11/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40521 Activity:nil
11/9    NBC - Wall Street Journal poll
        "Fifty-seven percent believe [Bush] deliberately misled people to make
        the case for war, compared with 35 percent who say he gave the most
        accurate information he had."
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9981177
        \_ Did the poll ask if people thought misleading the American public
           on going to war is worse than misleading the American public about
           a blowjob?
           \_ That was the poll about Libby's indictment vs. Clinton's lies.
              Duh!
        \_ Why should going to war be decided by the uninformed masses based on
           what sounds good to them? -not tom
           \_ We should decide going/not going based on polls and what the
              NYT editorial page says.
        \_ Perhaps they should consider:
        http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Production/files/podhoretz1205advance.html
2005/11/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:40522 Activity:nil
11/9    Congresswoman: Three Al Qaeda Caught in U.S. After Crossing
        Border with Mexico
        http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1519110/posts              -jblack
        \_ Go fuck yourself.
           \_ So are you annoyed about the Freep-link as an IP address
              thing, at the article, or are you just jblack hater guy
              again?
              \_ I suspect he's just off his meds.
                 \_ And you can go fuck yourself as well.
                    \_ How would you know if I can or not?  Get back on your
                       meds.
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:November:09 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>