Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:November:08 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2005/11/8-9 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:40483 Activity:nil
11/7    Dear housing bust expert Swami the Magnificent, my wife and I
        really really want to get a house soon. What is the best time
        for buyers? end of December? mid January?
        \_ Uhm, did you read your own links?  The builder they quote in the
           second link says he expects housing prices to go up slower.  Going
           up slower is not the same as dropping.  I understand the desperate
           desire to own a home but don't fool yourself by selectively
           reading articles.  That's no way to invest or buy.
        \_ http://tinyurl.com/dpd3j (yahoo news)
           http://tinyurl.com/acxh2 (yahoo news)
           Housing market crash crash crash.
           May hard working homeowners stay and keep their abode.
           May greedy flippers burn in hell cuz they're brash.
           May new buyers find renewed hope for finding a home.
        \_ I'm not STM, but from a co-worker who is currently trying to
           sell a house, the slow times are when closing dates fall on
           the holidays (Thanksgiving, Christmas) since no one wants to
           do a big move around those dates. He de-listed his house and
           will try again early next year.
           \_ Have your friend sell to this guy!
              \_ Mind living in Phoenix?
           \_ Yes, November and December are slow times. This can be good
              in terms of price, but bad in terms of selection. I bought
              my house in November and there wasn't much on the market.
              When houses started to list in earnest again (spring) the
              prices were a lot higher. So, now is a good time.
              \_ I'm not sure about that. With less inventory, everybody
                 goes looking at the same few places. That's what I saw
                 when I was looking a while back. The inventory was down
                 but there were still tons of people looking. I don't know
                 if maybe there are less buyers now though.
                 \_ Fewer buyers and fewer sellers. The market is more
                    quiet. In the spring it will pick up again. Prices
                    then are usually higher than now, despite the
                    increased supply. It's less a factor in CA, but many
                    houses don't show well in winter. It's like buying
                    your car on a rainy day. Factor in holidays and this
                    is a better time to buy than, say, April.
        \_ Be aware of the proposed new tax law which caps mortgage
           interest deduction at 420k. If this gets passed, it will
           most definitely affect housing price.
           \_ Another way to screw the blue states, since obviously anyone
              with a 420K house is superrich.
2005/11/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:40484 Activity:nil
11/8    Analyst says Wilson 'outed' wife in 2002
        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47242
        There are now multiple witnesses stating Wilson 'outed' his
        wife well before his mission to Africa.
        \_ Slight problem... take a look at
           http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/11/08/vallelyAndWilsonFoxAppearances.html
           The two were never on on the same day.  Not only that but Wilson
           wasn't on at all until many months after this outing supposedly
           happened.  And when that last little tidbit came out the "analyst"
           changed his story to match the dates better.
        \_ This message brought to you by our good 'ol jblack
           \_ Does jblack belong to the Berkeley College Republicans?
        \_ http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-rebuttal
           \_ Wow, that link doesn't address Vallely's claim at all!  Thanks
              anonymous motd link poster! -emarkp
              \_ Vallely's claim was limp to begin with, even if true.
                 The outing occurred with Novak's column, which has a
                 significant (and partisan-activist) readership.
                 \_ Ah yes, the standard partisan response.  "Your claim is
                    false!  And even if it isn't, it doesn't matter."  Thanks
                    for playing. -emarkp
                    \_ Actually, I never said his claim was false.
                       \_ "even if true"
                          \_ != "Your claim is false!", which is a declaration
                             indicating certainty
        \_ Waitasec. A retired Major General says he heard Wilson talking
           openly about his wife being a CIA agent in the green room at
           Fox News? THAT's your evidence? Where are the multiple witnesses?
           \_ You aren't willing to take any statement by a Major General
              as the aboslute truth?  You've obviously never served.
              \_ I'm withholding judgement until I hear what BUD DAY thinks.
2005/11/8-10 [Consumer/Audio] UID:40485 Activity:nil
11/8    http://www.patmedia.net/marklevinson/cool/cool_illusion.html
        work safe.
        \- weird to see "mark levinson" in a context other than highend
           speakers/audio. --psb, also not the speaker co.
           \_ Not really.  Mark Levinson was married to Kim Cattrall while
              Sex in The City was running, so his named appeared in a number
              of non-audio contexts.
        \_ this is the coolest illusion I've ever seen
           \- have you seen the pawn on the greyscale chessboard?
              that one is pretty dramatic too.
              this is also pretty good:
              http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/CoolPix/continuous-motion.jpeg
              this is also interesting:
              http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/CoolPix/Christ.jpg
           \_ This one isn't that dramatic but I had to crop the colors to
              prove to myself it was true:
           http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/checkershadow_illusion.html
              What is this "pawn on chessboard" thing? I vaguely remember
              something like that.
              \- oh yeah, that is the one i meant. i guess it wasnt a pawn.
                 that one is mindboggling. literally.
        \_ I wonder if the military makes some use of these illusions, or if it
           trains its personnels to avoid being tricked by similar illusions.
2005/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:40486 Activity:nil
11/8    When is Fox News going to offer the O'Reiley Show and Sean Hannity
        programs for 99 cents on iPod? I need portable Fair and Balanced
        programs to periodically cleanse myself from pervasive liberal trash
        like CNN ABC CBS NBC PBS that I'm surrounded by every day. Also
        it'd be nice to send an iPod preprogrammed with Fox News to my
        little brother in Iraq to cheer him up, to remind him why he's there.
        \_ I'll sell you an icepick you can use to clear those filthy
           liberal voices out of your ear.
        \_ I'd doubt that would happen. I can see podcasting complete with
           ads, but then they would have to figure out how much to charge
           for the ads and draw up contracts. Directed sales. Like butter!
        \_ hey, don't joke about users' siblings in Iraq
2005/11/8-10 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:40487 Activity:nil
11/8    Don't forget, there's talk on software  election security by one
        of the leaders in the field, Dr. David  Jefferson.  It's tonight
        at 6pm in 306 Soda,
        \_ How long is the talk supposed to run?
           \_ Probably about 1 hour.
        \_ Why is it not held before the election day?
           \_ Basically logistical reasons.  David Jefferson is a busy
              guy, and originally he was going to speak on something
              totally different. We didn't get it all figured out until
              last week, and the room is availible today. -jrleek
2005/11/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:40488 Activity:nil
11/8    "France's biggest Muslim fundamentalist organization, the Union for
        Islamic Organizations of France, issued a fatwa, or religious decree,
        that forbade all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any
        action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm
        others."
        http://csua.org/u/dyh (Yahoo! News)
        Is this smoke or are the fundamentalist really against the violence?
        \_ More likely, it's them realizing that you cannot have a fortnight
           of rioting without experiencing some serious lashback on the
           political front. They're trying to tell people that the point has
           has been made, the shark has been jumped, and, as Dave Chappelle
           would say, it's time to Wrap This Up!
           \_ Additionally, they're proving that the Muslim leaders have more
              power in France than the French government.
              \_ Good point! cf. Madagascar election, January 2003.
        \_ UOIF is run by a guy named Boubaker, who's a big moderate.  It's
           sort of semi-sponsored by the government; this is an attempt to
           exert some control over militant elements in the (mainly Algerian)
           muslim community by bringing pressure on some of the more radical
           mosques from within the community itself.  There's a fight between
           UOIF (which I wouldn't call "fundamentalist") and another, more
           conservative, organization about influence within the French Umma.
           To overly simplify, it's a matter of those who want to work within
           the system versus those who don't.  And no, muslims in France are
           a large group but they definitely don't have more power than
           "de gub'mint".  -John
2005/11/8 [Uncategorized] UID:40489 Activity:nil
11/8    Anybody know how long the electronic voting talk tonight is
        supposed to run?  I'm trying to decide if I can make it to
        an 8pm event.
2005/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:40490 Activity:moderate
11/8    Cruise Ship Escapes Pirate Hijack Attempt
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051105/ap_on_re_af/pirate_attack
        Ship's Passengers Recall Pirate Attack
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051107/ap_on_re_af/seychelles_pirate_cruise
        What kind of cruise ship is it that can outrun speedboat?  Or, what
        kind of lame speedboat is it that can't even catch up with a cruise
        ship!!??  And what kind of lame pirates would use such a speedboat?
        \_ "two 25-foot inflatable boats"  I suspect that heavily loaded
           inflatable boats are not that fast.  Probably better
           acceleration, but lower top speed.
           \_ Still, they can't outrun a 440-foot-long, 10,000-ton cruise ship?
              That's still lame.
              \_ They probably didn't outrun, per se. With no way to board or
                 stop the ship, when the cruise ship set out to open sea, the
                 pirates probably just gave up.
                 \_ Modern luxury liners can hit almost 30 knots.  Some lame
                    Somali rustbucket may not make that much.  -John
                    \_ The rigid inflatable boats the US Navy uses have
                       a top speed of 45 knots, but a cruise speed of
                       only 30 knots - and that's a boat the US military
                       uses. I'm gonna guess the speedboats were faster,
                       but not much faster and have a shorter range.
                       \_ Once again, khat-addled Somali thugs.  Have a look
                          at link:tinyurl.com/9mynz -- "speedboat" is an
                          optimistic description.  -John
                          \_ They went 100 miles offshore in that?
                             \_ Look up Thor Heyerdahl.  Where there's a will
                                there's a way.  Some of the slow freighters,
                                private yachts or tankers modern pirates
                                take are well worth it.  Anda cruise ship
                                will not deviate course because some random
                                blip is near it--it will probably just try
                                to avoid ramming.  -John
                       \_ The more I think about it, the more surprised I
                          am that the thugs got that close. A radar blip
                          from something on an intercept course within 10
                          miles of me? If I can't talk to it, I run from it.
                          A possible terrorist strike would be my primary
                          worry, especially 100 miles out on a ship full of
                          American/European tourists.
        \_ Even more lame is that, why did the pirates fire their guns when
           they approach the cruise ship if their speedboats aren't that fast?
           They should have quietly approached and climbed up the ship before
           waking up everybody with gunfire.
           \_ The problem is that there is no easy way to "climb" up the ship.
              The ships are built for easy access to docks not to those at
              sea level. The shooting was probably out of frustration.
              \_ The article says they were trying to disable the ship
                 with their shooting.
                 \_ It's like shooting BBs at a elephant. You need to know
                    where to hit and then get lucky hitting it.
                    \_ Eh, not so much with RPG's.
              \_ I thought climbing up ships from sea level are pirates'
                 specialty.  Isn't it their main way of hijacking ships?
                 \_ Most piracy deals with much smaller, slower ships. Small
                    frieghters, fishing boats, that sort of thing. Built much
                    lower and substatially easier to access.
           \_ These guys are primitive thugs.  Like op, they probably thought
              "speed boat _must_ be faster than cruise ship."  -John
        \_ Per /., it looks like the cruise ship used a sonic weapon to
           deter their pursuers:
        http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/breaking_news/13106303.htm
        \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_range_acoustic_device
           very cool.
2005/11/8-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40491 Activity:high
11/8    tom holub
        \_ ilya shpitser
        \_ david bushong
        \_ charlie root
        \_ geordan rosario
           \_ Hi! -geordan
        \_ peter mardahl

           \_ (what does this list of names represent?)
                \_ People who were at yermom's last night.  -John
              \_ Evidence that the price of green in Berkeley is Way Too High.
        \_ So, someone said something threatening toward amckee, like
           instituting a blacklist saying "do not hire amckee".  amckee
           used KAIS MOTD identification to turn off someone's account,
           someone who turned out to be innocent because KAIS MOTD's
           identification was in error.  The Politburo sent mail to
           kchang asking him to turn it off, with wording that some
           inferred to mean "turn off the ident feature or else."
           kchang just took the whole thing down.  Clear enough?  --PeterM
           \_ Thanks, peterM
              in my innocent eye, kchang has nothing to do with this at all.
              he has repeatly, and clearly labled that his "name attribute"
              logging feature is not accurate.  I don't think it's kchang's
              problem when someone falsely put faith on that feature, no?
                                                        kngharv
                  \_ Yes, I understood clearly that kchang's naming
                     feature was not accurate.  In fact, his feature
                     misattributed to me things I didn't say (other
                     things it got right).  Nevertheless, I liked the
                     feature:  it's fine if you understand the quality
                     and uncertainty of the data.  --PeterM
              \_ It's a GOOD thing that the archiver is down. Some of
                 the comments amckee made could be really damaging
                 to him in the future. Ditto with tjb and ilyas.
                 \_ my motd archiver is still going strong.  -ERicM
           \_ it was not a threat, it was an retaliation. I personally
              made sure that amckee will never get hired by Google,
              Intel, IBM, and countless other companies. I love networking.
              \_ This seems inappropriate to me.  If you think the guy is so
                 vile that he needs to blacklisted, don't you think that
                 he'd do a good job shooting himself down in interviews?  If
                 you think you need to do MORE then it's clearly personal and
                 not professional.  Alot can be said of amckee, but I don't
                 think this sort of retaliation based on motd content is
                 reasonable.
                 \_ It's often difficult diagnosing personality disorders in
                    an interview.
                    \_ Yeah, the evidence is that psychopath blacklister
                       guy got hired.
                       \_ Honestly, I wouldn't hire either of them, but knowing
                          what I do, if I had to choose I think I'd hire
                          amckee over the blacklister guy, but because at least
                          amckee is honest, and blacklister guy is basically
                          a cowardly grudge-holding bastard.
                          \_ I have personally contacted God, and I've made
                             sure no one from Earth is going to Heaven.
              \_ you also seem to love hyperbole.
              \_ Just curious--how could you _make sure_ that these
                 companies won't hire someone?  Won't that imply these
                 companies maintain a blacklist themselves?
                \_ I hope I never come across you in my professional life.
                   Blacklisting is vile.  --PeterM
                        \_ Ditto.  To pp, go fuck yourself.  -John
                   \_ not exactly smart signing your name.
                        \_ What, so I'm supposed to cower in fear
                           of the blacklister?  What is he going to do, put
                           me on a blacklist for being anti-blacklists?  Or
                           is he going to invent some slander/libel?  --PM
                      \_ It's not only "motd content", but the personal
                         threats made to some people, and the lack of
                         any apologies.  Look at the psb web site for the
                         hysterical rantings -- "I will file a restraining
                         order" "Your friends will not be able to help you"
                         "The CSUA is a Stalinist Empire and I am Uncle Joe"
                         "I am keeping a log of your actions" "psb you have
                         been a hoser by spamming the csua@@csua mailing list"
                         "the full scrutiny of contract law" "alumni on our
                         servers is clearly in violation of campus policies"
                         "I am the resident asshole".  I doubt the earlier
                         poster has the power to have amckee banned at several
                         large companies, but one can point to the very words
                         written by amckee.
                         \_ So you've appointed yourself judge, jury, and
                         \_ So he's appointed himself judge, jury, and
                            executioner, and decided that establishing a
                            precedent for intimidation and execution of
                            threats on the motd was a more rational and
                            responsible behavior?  How is that supposed to
                            be good for the motd community as a whole?
                            Honestly, I think you're the one that should be
                            sorried here since you not only made threats, but
                            seem to have actually carried through on them.
                            Honestly, I think he's the one that should be
                            sorried here since he not only made threats, but
                            seems to have actually carried through on them.
                            Uh oh...have I just made myself a blacklist
                            candidate, now too?
        \_ Politburo sent kchang a couple e-mails asking him to turn off
           the ID feature, or at least put a big disclaimer about its
           (in)accuracy.  kchang did not respond to Politburo e-mail and was
           threatened by a Politburo member that he may be sorried if he didn't
           write back.  kchang decided to turn off the archiver entirely.
           \_ This is in the context of a CSUA president who threatened to
              turn off the accounts for at least two more people, never
              apologized to them, and did a lot of semi-unstable ranting
              documented at http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA
              and the request-like rather than threat-like nature of the mails
              was not communicated to kchang. And some of the communication
              was from non-politiburo persons.
              \- what sort of moron would try to outthink psb? ok tnx. --#1 fan
              \_ What sort of moron would try to outthink psb? --#1 fan
                 \- psb for president-4-life -- #2 fan
                    \_ !psb  -John
                       \_ I think !psb may be a popular candidate at the next
                          politburo elections. -gm
2005/11/8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40492 Activity:high
11/8    Would someone give me a pointer on what was the big controversy
        surrounding KAIS MOTD, the whole story, and in particular, why
        the name attribute logging is a such big deal?  ever since
        KAIS MOTD being terminated, people start to censoring MOTD again.
        and it is very annoying.
        \_ So, someone said something threatening toward amckee, like
           instituting a blacklist saying "do not hire amckee".  amckee
           used KAIS MOTD identification to turn off someone's account,
           someone who turned out to be innocent because KAIS MOTD's
           identification was in error.  The Politburo sent mail to
           kchang asking him to turn it off, with wording that some
           inferred to mean "turn off the ident feature or else."
           kchang just took the whole thing down.  Clear enough?  --PeterM
        \_ Politburo sent kchang a couple e-mails asking him to turn off
           the ID feature, or at least put a big disclaimer about its
           (in)accuracy.  kchang did not respond to Politburo e-mail and was
           threatened by a Politburo member that he may be sorried if he didn't
           write back.  kchang decided to turn off the archiver entirely.
2005/11/8-10 [Consumer/TV] UID:40493 Activity:nil
11/8    I now see "multi-zone" dvd players being sold by makers like
        Sony, this puzzles me, isn't it illegal to sell multi-zone
        (region free) DVD players? At least intentionally? Especially
        from a copyright dickhead like Sony? Or did the DVD contract
        change recently?
        \_ It isn't illegal.  It may violate agreements with RIAA, however.
           \_ What does the RIAA have to do with DVDs?  MPAA, on the other
              hand...
              \_ Sorry, got my acronymns mixed up.  I meant the DVD CCA.
        \_ Sony is trying to play it nice since they got themselves burned
           by the rootkit thing.  Besides, the real battle is on
           BluRay vs. HD-DVD.
        \_ I thought it usually was a "wink wink" gosh I hope no one ever
           press buttons X Y and Z at the same time because that would make
           the player region-free deal.
           \_ Basically, yes.  Same thing with Xbox modchips.  Depending
              on which country you do it in, it's either illegal or
              sanctioned explicitly by the courts (i.e. Italy.)  -John
2005/11/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40494 Activity:nil
11/8    7-minute segment on the marketing of the Iraq war
        http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hardball-Runuptothewar.wmv
        http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hardball-Runupto.mov
        See Condi, Dick, Powell, and Dubya report what would turn out to be
        false claims.
2005/11/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:40495 Activity:low
11/8    Oops, looks like the person who leaked the CIA secret prisons info was
        a Republican senator.  Guess that "investigation" won't be going
        anywhere after all.
        \_ If it's McCain, it might go somewhere.  Oh wait, McCain just said
           he hadn't heard of the sites at all before the Post story.
        \_ Frist is backing off already...  Gee, think the man has any
           credibility left?  -aspo
        \_ everyone's a schadenfraudester.
        \_ Hey, the Dems can still call for it (and they should--of course the
           Repubs should as well). -emarkp
        \_ "Hey, we're gonna get the guy who blew the whistle on our secret CIA
           torture scam!" wtf??
        \_ Yes, it is more important to stop the leaks than to find out more
           about the US secret prisons. Trent Lott says that it was a
           Republican senator because VP Cheney told them about the prisons
           during a luncheon. Makes you wonder what they say over nightcaps.
                \_ That's when they talk about the horse molestation chambers
        \_ s/'secret prisons'/'torture chamber'/g
2005/11/8-10 [Recreation/Computer] UID:40496 Activity:nil
11/8    Can someone show up to this and asphyxiate every person
        speaking at this?  thanks
        Internet: Friendster, MySpace founders debate online communities
        Nov. 8, 7-9 p.m., Andersen Auditorium, Haas School of Business
        The founders of the wildly popular online communities http://MySpace.com,
        recently bought by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp for $580 million,
        and http://Friendster.com, will discuss the future of these virtual
        neighborhoods in an event sponsored by the Fall 2005 Pledge Class
        of Delta Sigma Pi, a business fraternity. The event is free
        and includes the chance to win an iPod Nano and other cool door prizes.
2005/11/8-9 [Health/Disease/General, Science] UID:40497 Activity:nil
11/8    5 cases of polio in MN Amish group.  link:tinyurl.com/atvhz
        \_ Good for them!  They resisted the evil tyrannical gubbament and its
           attempts to inject nasty SCIENCE chemicals into their god loving
           children!
           \_ Hey, nice strawman.  Did they get cervical cancer via HPV too?
              \_ Heh, thanks man.
           \_ Contrary to popular belief, the Amish embrace modern medical
              science.  Note that the baby that spread the disease got it in
              a hospital.  The amish are more hostile to technology that helps
              you get stuff done quickly.
              \_ Yup.  See #4 in http://www.amish-heartland.com/?topic=FAQ
2005/11/8-9 [Science/Biology, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:40498 Activity:moderate
11/8    Kansas school board approves change to definition of science to permit
        teaching of intelligent design alongside theory of evolution
        Old text:  "Science is the human activity of seeking natural
        explanations for what we observe in the world around us ..."
        New text:  "Science is the human activity of seeking logical
        explanations for what we observe in the world around us ..."
        \_ I don't see how that really changes anything.  ID is no more logical
           than it is natural.  -tom
        \_ 2006 State of Kansas Science Textbook:
           Chapter 1: The Flat Earth
           Chapter 2: The Earth-revolving Sun
           Chapter 3: Seven Days of Creation
           Chapter 4: Logical vs Natural: 3 Steps to Bring you Closer to God
           \_ Chapter 5: Atheist Scentists Go to Hell
           \_ Chapter 5: Aetheist Scentists Go to Hell
           \_ Chapter 6: Faith-Based Science and Engineering: Power of Prayer
        \_ 2006 State of Kansas Health Textbook:
           Chapter 1: Don't Worry Your Pretty Little Head About It
           \- so are parents goign to be allowed to have their kids opt out of
              the fruitcake stuff?
        \_ Great phrase by Kansas ID board member: "Darwin Fundamentalist"
        \_ FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER WILL GET THE INFIDELS!  -John
           \_ Flying Spaghetti Monster can't keep flying forever!  Thanks to
              Intelligent Falling.
2005/11/8-9 [Science/Biology] UID:40499 Activity:nil
11/8    What's the matter with Kansas, indeed:
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11/08/evolution.debate.ap/index.html
        \_ Can someone please tell me what the BIG problem is w/ evolution
           that is somehow not present w/ GR or QM? It seems to me that if
           you accept GR/QM, you have to accept evolution.
           \_ GR/QM don't contradict thw WORD OF GOD.
        \_ "Intelligent Design" won the nomenclature war.  For instance, I
           believe life was designed by a Creator.  However, when I looked into
           the details of ID, I was stunned by how it basically says "this
           stuff doesn't make sense, doesn't it make more sense that God^H^H^H
           an intelligent agent designed it?"  Seriously, that's their whole
           argument. -emarkp
           \_ ID works on the "N+1" theory. If our level of technological
              understanding is "N", then anything with a technological
              complexity of "N+1" MUST be divinely inspired. I work in
              Kansas, and live next door in Missouri, and half of the
              people on both sides (smart, educated, earnest) believe in
              some form of N+1ism. Even those people who understand that
              the whole thing is political posturing in the part of the
              Kansas (Republican, grass-roots) political establishment still
              also, somewhere in the back of their minds, believe that,
              yes, Evolution is real, but underlying evolution is some
              divinely-inspired impetus. --coganman
              \_ my foot up their asses is divinely-inspired
              \_ And they haven't tarred & feathered you yet?  -John
           \_ Say we accept for the sake of argument that life on earth
              was designed by an intelligent agent.  I do not see how
              this refutes or disproves natural selection b/c (1) the
              intelligent agent could have used natural selection as
              the mechanism to create life and (2) the intelligent
              agent itself may have arose due to natural selection
              operating in a different environment.
              \_ I agree.  ID proponents however paint evolution as requiring
                 evolution to be a random process--explicitly forbidding a
                 creator.  Thus setting up the straw man. -emarkp
2005/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:40500 Activity:nil
11/8    http://drudgereport.com accidentally flips prelim. Virginia election results
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1518401/posts
2005/11/8-9 [Uncategorized] UID:40505 Activity:nil
11/7    Stephen Colbert/Middle Earth fanfic:
        http://www.colbertnation.com/colbertnation/fanfic_blr1.jhtml
2017/11/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/22   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:November:08 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>