Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:31 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2005/10/31-11/1 [Uncategorized] UID:40343 Activity:nil
10/31   SeaQuest is coming out on DVD:
        http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=4407
        \_ and still no date for the release of Manimal?
2005/10/31-11/1 [Uncategorized] UID:40344 Activity:low
10/31   What the heck is The Wizard of Id supposed to be about today?
        http://featurepage.creators.com/washpost.html?name=wiz
        \_ I think they're trying to say halloween==devil worship
           \_ Or that orange gourds and wheeled transports are all part
              the Devil's plot of e-ville.
2005/10/31-11/1 [Uncategorized] UID:40345 Activity:low
10/31   what's a command line torrent program that lets me
        limit my uploading speed?
        \_ the reference bt client maybe?
           \_ yep, the reference python implementation does this
        \_ Not strictly CLI (curses-based) but try rtorrent.  Fairly
           counter-intuitive commands, but does what you want.  -John
2005/10/31-11/1 [Uncategorized] UID:40346 Activity:nil
10/31   Happy Halloween!
        http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4346/1160/1600/103944384bmomQg_ph.jpg
        \_ aruga aruga!
           \_ What?
              \_ Capt'n! She canna teak anymoor. She's gonna blow!
              \_ onomatopoeia for squeezing rubber horns
                 \_ Haha!  I see.  Thanks.
2005/10/31-11/1 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/Networking] UID:40347 Activity:moderate
10/31   What's the best tool out there to crack WEP?
        \_ pissed that your neighbor finally enabled encryption?
           \_ Can't hack into the webcam in their daughter's bedroom?
               \_ mmm, daughter cam.
        \_ Auditor collection.  http://www.remote-exploit.org and make a donation
           to Max.  You owe me a coke.  -John
2005/10/31-11/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40348 Activity:nil
10/31   From <DEAD>dcbar.org<DEAD> via the intrepid Wonkette:
        I L Libby Jr
        Cheif of Staff, Room 276
        Eisenhower Exec Office Bldg.
        Washington DC 20501

        Email: Not available
        Phone: 202-456-9000
        Fax: 202-456-6212
        Membership Status: Suspended
        Reason for suspension: Non-payment of dues.
        Disciplinary history: None
        Date of admission: May 19, 1978
        \_ So you're going to call him?  What is the importance of this?
           \_ It's amusing how many of these lawyers around bush and company
              manage to get their licenses suspended.
              \_ Because he didn't pay his dues?
                 \_ Miers had a suspended license as well.  It's just something
                    that seems to come up with remarkable frequency around Bush.
                    Mediocrity in all things...
                    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1018051miers1.html
                    \_ Wow, talk about trying to make a mountain out of a
                       mole hill.
                       \_ You seem to think I'm saying more about this than
                          I am.
                          \_ http://www.theonion.com/content/node/41917
        \_ Cheif of Staff != Chief of Staff  (!!)
2005/10/31-11/1 [Recreation/Dating, Reference/RealEstate] UID:40349 Activity:low
10/31   A while ago I went to take a look at a condo development. I
        answered a survey and an agent took me around. Then I asked
        the agent if it is possible to bring in another agent
        (such as my friend) in order to save a few commission fees.
        She said it is possible, but that I'd have to bring an
        agent during the FIRST visit. Is she bullshitting or is this
        a standard thing?
        \_ Are you the same person with the "The condo agent *LIED!* to me!"
           story?  The seller can make up any rule they want as long as they
           don't violate some civil rights laws and similar things.  They can
           say they give a $15K discount to anyone who wears green and yellow
           spotted sneakers when they FIRST visit and can even change the
           colors at their whim.  They're a seller.  They set the selling
           rules.  You're in a negotiating situation.  Bring your friend if
           you want.  They then have the choice of selling or not selling to
           you at that or any other price with or without your friend
           involved.  There are no 'standard things' in the way you seem
           to think.
           \_ ok cool, thanks. I'm pretty new at this so I have no idea
              what the 'rules' are. I guess there are really none. Your
              response is very helpful. Thanks.
              \_ Oh, there are rules. However, they all happen once you
                 agree to them by signing something. If you didn't sign
                 anything you are free to do/say whatever. That goes for
                 both parties.
                 \_ And make sure you wear green & yellow when you first go
                    into any place to get the funky sneaker discount!
        \_ Ask your friend, the AGENT.
           \- FYI: nolo press has a book called "how to buy a house in CA"
2005/10/31-11/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40350 Activity:nil
10/31   Some stories you may have missed last week in the media's masturbatory
        speculation on Rove:
        UN Oil-for-Food scandal report released:
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1602171,00.html
        Iran President calls for Israel to be "wiped off the map"
        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/31/international/middleeast/31iran.html
           of Iraq is way more than the money funneled to Saddam Hussin
           during UN Oil-for-Food program, right?  What is the big deal
           about this?  Are you looking for a justification for the war?
           \_ Only two American companies made money during the FFO scandal.
              The Provisional Government gave money to mostly American
              companies. You Es Eh! You, ese!
           \_ I'm not looking for "a justification".  The UN is a corrupt
              organization, and this is an important report.
              \_ The Bush administration is a corrupt organization.
                 \_ Really?  The official investigation has produced a single
                    indictment.  The UN investigation shows corruption
                    everywhere.
                    \_ Why hasn't the Senate investigation into the use of
                       WMD intelligence (which was promised to occur after
                       the 2004 election) been started yet?
                    \_ Yes, really. The foxes are guarding the henhouse:
                       http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/cover.html
        \_ you know that the money squantered by the provisional government
           of Iraq is way more than the money funneled to Saddam Hussin
           during UN Oil-for-Food program, right?  What is the big deal
           about this?  Are you looking for a justification for the war?
           \_ Only two American companies made money during the FFO scandal.
              The Provisional Government gave money to mostly American
              companies. You Es Eh! You, ese!
           \_ I'm not looking for "a justification".  The UN is a corrupt
              organization, and this is an important report.
              \_ The Bush administration is a corrupt organization.
                 \_ Really?  The official investigation has produced a single
                    indictment.  The UN investigation shows corruption
                    everywhere.
                    \_ Why hasn't the Senate investigation into the use of
                       WMD intelligence (which was promised to occur after
                       the 2004 election) been started yet?
                    \_ Yes, really. The foxes are guarding the henhouse:
                       http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/cover.html
2005/10/31-11/1 [Recreation/Humor] UID:40351 Activity:low Cat_by:auto
10/31   Is this real???  http://www.zippyvideos.com/138107019747255.html
        [The Chinese title says "Squid camouflage (must see!)"]
        \_ WMP can't play (requires codec)
        \_ would someone download the clip and put it in /csua/tmp?
           \_  /csua/tmp/octocamo.wmv
        \_ Yes, but it's an octopus.  Octopodes are awesome.  They can change
           color _and_ skin texture for camoflage; most of their brain is,
           in fact, dedicated to running their elaborate camo system.
        \_ also look up cuttlefish.  freaking awesome.  I've been looking
           for a place to get one as a pet, but have been unsuccessful so
           far.
        \_ Holy shit!  That freaked me out more than any Halloween stuff.
2005/10/31-11/1 [Uncategorized] UID:40352 Activity:nil
10/31   I currently have AT&T's VoIP CallVantage program. How easy is
        it to switch to Vonage's VoIP, which is $5 cheaper/month, and
        I get the first month free? Also can I keep the same number?
2005/10/31 [Uncategorized] UID:40353 Activity:nil
10/31   *KNEW* it, god damn, nominated another supreme court justice just to
        get people's eye off Scooter and Rove!
        \_ Here's a better conspiracy theory: Miers was just a feint to get
           people more ready to accept Alito.  I realize that doesn't
           make any sense, but that's what makes it a conspiracy theory.
           \_ i dont think this is so far-fetched
              \_ The main problem with the above conspiracy theory is that
                 Bush does not seem to have come out any stronger from the
                 fray over Miers.
        \_ Don't worry, man.  I won't soon forget about treason, perjury,
           obstruction of justice.
        \_ How well does that tinfoil hat fit?
2005/10/31-11/1 [Computer, Recreation/Humor] UID:40354 Activity:nil
10/31   Civ 4, The Internet wonder
        http://netfiles.uiuc.edu/chudnoff/www/gore.jpg
        \_ Tell me that was a joke please?
         \_ It prolly is a joke but that is how it is in game. Pretty funny.
2005/10/31-11/1 [Computer/SW/Languages/JavaScript] UID:40355 Activity:nil
10/31   Javascript newbie question:
        appType2 = new Array("IESSALLO++3A - Manual EE - Single Department Input\
 for ACES Group and Business", "....", "....")
        Trying to do some simple Javascript modifications, but don't know anything
        about it.  What does the ++ in the string mean / do?
        \_ Nothing.  It's just a ++ in a string.
           BTW, you can just say:
           var appType2 = [ '...', '...', '...' ];
           which is much more pleasant.  --dbushong
           \_ thanks!
2005/10/31-11/1 [Consumer/Shipping] UID:40356 Activity:nil
10/31   Dear MOTD, I'm moving to Chile for a year next year and am flying
        via SF->NYC.  Does anyone here know of a way to inexpensively ship
        1-2 large suitcases worth of stuff to South America from either city?
        I couldn't get a business upgrade from NYC to Santiago (yes, I know
        it's a big detour.)  -John
        \_ May I ask why you're moving to Chile?
        \_ The Spanish term for it is "la mordidad."  -tom
           \_ Thanks, but I don't think yermom's crabs will help me ship
              my stuff.  -John
        \_ Where in Chile?
        \_ Why not something like DHL?
        \_ When I was there I knew someone who used DHL.  Of course his mom was
           a VP of the company...  By the way I live there for 2 years in
           Santiago (though that was 10 years ago). -emarkp
        \_ Weight?
           \_ Very very roughly maybe around 30-50kg total (tbh I don't really
              know.)  I just figured that DHL/UPS/whatever would be
              exorbitant pricewise.  -John
              \_ Call them first. Most of them have airport-to-airport
                 international economy freight. If they are too much
                 then get back to us with the price we should beat.
        \_ Try bax global.  You have to fill out the paperwork yourself, but
           I saved a lot of money shipping a heavy monitor to Amsterdam.  Using
           UPS would have made it not worth it.  Took a long time though,
           ship freight.  But very cheap.
           \_ Tried them, they refuse to ship anything "personal", no matter
              how I phrase it.  -John
              \_ "Hello?  DHL?  Yeah, I need to ship 50kg of cash to South
                  America.  .... Yes, it is a business item, nothing personal.
                  ....  Ok, yeah, I'll take the shipping insurance."
2005/10/31-11/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Stripclub] UID:40357 Activity:kinda low
10/31   Naked women on the streets of Hong Kong in PETA protest:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051031/od_afp/environmenthalloween_051031171302
        \_ KFC ain't going to torture this chick:
           http://news.yahoo.com/photo/051014/ids_photos_ts/r1925397729.jpg
        \_ I'm sure Hooters is just as bad to its chicks.
           \_ Hooters serves fried chicken menu also?
              \_ http://www.hooters.com/menu/Hooters_Online_Menu.pdf
                 \_ No prices?
        \_ where are the pictures of naked PETA girls?
           \_ People Eating Tasty Animals.
           \_ The caption said the two lying in the fake coffins were naked.
        \_ url?
2005/10/31-11/1 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:40358 Activity:high
10/31 http://www.daveloveselizabeth.com :  Makes me glad I am
      married.  I did not know that Linux is a cause of singledom. ;-)
      Stuff like this will make dating that much harder ..
        \_ I don't understand why this guy is spending so much time and
           energy and money on a white chick. Statistically white chicks
           are more bitchy and/or have attitude problems, don't cook and
           don't take care of kids, and are much more likely to leave you
           and take your money and fuck someone else.   -asian fetish troll
        \_ I would be creeped out if I was Elizabeth. That guy tried too

           hard. "Just Engaged" shirts and hats?! Run, Elizabeth, run!
      \_ Why do I get the urge to track these people down and gun them down?
           \_ He sets the bar too high for himself.  How can he ever
              expect to top it?  Anyhow, it's the frequent little things
              that chicks dig.  Not the big impossible stuff.
              \_ IMO, it's not that he's a romantic who sets the bar too
                 high with Mediterranean cruises and whatnot, but that
                 he is objectifying his wife and in a sense making her a
                 possession. I think he has issues with women. Do *you*
                 treat women like that, even when trying to impress
                 them? I'd think he was less creepy if he *did* take her
                 on cruises and buy her diamonds. There's this weird sense
                 on cruises and buy her diamels. There's this weird sense
                 of desperation and trying to make everything 'perfect'
                 that gives me a feeling of dread. Will he beat her if she
                 doesn't conform to the ideals? He seems to be setting himself
                 up for a fall. He didn't do anything 'impossible'. In
                 fact, it was more mundane - that makes it creepier. "Here
                 honey, I got us His and Hers Forever mugs."
                 \_ Wow, you jumped from "desperate nerd" to "wife beater"
                    pretty fast there buddy.
                    \_ what, you don't beat your wife?
        about the prop? -emarkp
        \_ I like some ideas in it.  I don't like the implementation.  It
           would have been easy for them to put this up and push it through
           if they didn't implement the first round without voter approval
           I'd be able to give my support.  --scotsman
           \_ What about the implementation don't you like? -emarkp
              \_ Just what I said above.  It's redistricting outside of the
                 normal cycle, and the first time 'round it goes into effect
                 without being approved by the voters. --scotsman
                 \_ I'm not sure what you mean by "goes into effect
                    without being approved by the voters."  Do you mean
                    the council of judges would normally be approved in an
                    election, and won't be the first time around? -jrleek
                    \_ The map they would draw would be in effect in 2006,
                       in the same election that the voters approved said map.
                    \_ I'm just saying that this guy has issues with women
                       and I would fear that he wouldn't know how to
                       behave with one. This could get violent, but even
                       if not I think it would be bad. I am surprised she
                       doesn't sense the creepy vibe. She's probably some
                       sort of nutjob herself. I'm getting "Runaway Bride"
                       with my spider sense.
        \_ I voted for it. -ausman
        \_ I think it's six of one, half dozen of the other.  The problem
           of incumbency has little to do with how the districts are drawn.
             -tom
        \_ Opposed. It's not a solution, it's appointing a tribunal to come
           up with a solution. I want this redistricting reformed, but this
           does nothing to actually do this. --erikred
           \_ Right now the legislature draws its own boundaries.  How would
              you suggest improving it? -emarkp
              \_ Mathematical formula based on population. Follow the
                 guidelines currently provided re: not splitting up counties
                 or cities too much. --erikred
                 \_ This is something that's been bugging me about the whole
                    discussion.  The main argument I hear for supporting it is
                    "no seats changed hands last time".  This is insufficient
                    to convince me that there's a problem with the current
                    map.  Based on that, it's a big leap for me to conclude
                    that the system to draw the map has pressing problems.
                    --scotsman
                 \_ Okay, so you like the proposed rules but want to remove
                    people from the process?  I'd agree with that, though I'd
                    want the algorithm and implementation public and
                    reviewable.  Short of that, the rules for choosing the
                    judges are pretty strict and I see this as a reasonable
                    solution. -emarkp
                    \_ The idea of appointing three formerly partisan judges
                       by random lot sounds like an unnecessarily complication.
                       Propose a solution, not a method for designing a
                       solution that's more complicated and just as open to
                       corruption as the current one. --erikred
        \_ I'm voting for it. It's clearly better than what we have now. In
           fact I'm voting for all of 74-77. The arguments above against it
           don't mean anything to me. Prop 77 is easily understood and
           likely to have reasonable results. Anything to light a bit more
           fire under politician asses.
        \_ Even though it comes from Ah-nold "The Groper" Schwarzenegger,
           I was for it a few months ago and I'm still for it.
           -moderate/liberal
        \_ If Judge Wapner is against it, then so am I!
           \_ those ads actually cemented my position in favor...
           \- so what is the rationale for it being all judges
              rather than say statisticians or political scientists
              or other technical people. what is the "objective
              function" the implementors will be given?
                \_ The whole job of a judge is to be as fair as possible.
                   \- gee the whole job of a mathematician is truth.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:40359 Activity:high
10/31   So the LA Times and SF Chron have endorsed prop 77.  How do you feel
        about the prop? -emarkp
        \_ I like some ideas in it.  I don't like the implementation.  It
           would have been easy for them to put this up and push it through
           if they didn't implement the first round without voter approval
           and outside the standard census cycle.  Or if not easy, at least
           I'd be able to give my support.  --scotsman
           \_ What about the implementation don't you like? -emarkp
              \_ Just what I said above.  It's redistricting outside of the
                 normal cycle, and the first time 'round it goes into effect
                 without being approved by the voters. --scotsman
                 \_ I'm not sure what you mean by "goes into effect
                    without being approved by the voters."  Do you mean
                    the council of judges would normally be approved in an
                    election, and won't be the first time around? -jrleek
                    \_ The map they would draw would be in effect in 2006,
                       in the same election that the voters approved said map.
        \_ I voted for it. -ausman
        \_ I think it's six of one, half dozen of the other.  The problem
           of incumbency has little to do with how the districts are drawn.
             -tom
        \_ Opposed. It's not a solution, it's appointing a tribunal to come
           up with a solution. I want this redistricting reformed, but this
           does nothing to actually do this. --erikred
           \_ Right now the legislature draws its own boundaries.  How would
              you suggest improving it? -emarkp
              \_ Mathematical formula based on population. Follow the
                 guidelines currently provided re: not splitting up counties
                 or cities too much. --erikred
                 \_ This is something that's been bugging me about the whole
                    discussion.  The main argument I hear for supporting it is
                    "no seats changed hands last time".  This is insufficient
                    to convince me that there's a problem with the current
                    map.  Based on that, it's a big leap for me to conclude
                    that the system to draw the map has pressing problems.
                    --scotsman
                 \_ Okay, so you like the proposed rules but want to remove
                    people from the process?  I'd agree with that, though I'd
                    want the algorithm and implementation public and
                    reviewable.  Short of that, the rules for choosing the
                    judges are pretty strict and I see this as a reasonable
                    solution. -emarkp
                    \_ The idea of appointing three formerly partisan judges
                       by random lot sounds like an unnecessarily complication.
                       Propose a solution, not a method for designing a
                       solution that's more complicated and just as open to
                       corruption as the current one. --erikred
        \_ I'm voting for it. It's clearly better than what we have now. In
           fact I'm voting for all of 74-77. The arguments above against it
           don't mean anything to me. Prop 77 is easily understood and
           likely to have reasonable results. Anything to light a bit more
           fire under politician asses.
        \_ Even though it comes from Ah-nold "The Groper" Schwarzenegger,
           I was for it a few months ago and I'm still for it.
           -moderate/liberal
           fact I'm voting for all of 74-77.
        \_ If Judge Wapner is against it, then so am I!
           \_ those ads actually cemented my position in favor...
           \- so what is the rationale for it being all judges
              rather than say statisticians or political scientists
              or other technical people. what is the "objective
              function" the implementors will be given?
                \_ The whole job of a judge is to be as fair as possible.
                   \- gee the whole job of a mathematician is truth.
                      \_ you confuse fairness with truth.  they are not the
                         same.  only one requires wisdom.
                         \- well this is all meaningless without some sense
                            of the objective function. how do you decide
                            whether map A or map B is "better"?
                            \_ "better" is defined by "just" and "fair".  that
                               is what judges are supposed to do.  if not
                               people we trust with our justice system every
                               day, then who?  mathematicians?  hah!
                            \_ I think it's funny that my comment about judges
                               being a better judge of fairness than
                               mathematicians got censored.
                            \_ Judges are also supposed to be wise, which means
                               they would rely on expert statisticians for the
                               math bits.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Reference/BayArea, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40360 Activity:low
10/31   Mass graves uncovered in San Francisco:
        http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=3589212
        \_ dead people don't deserve rights!  taking up valuable real estate
           anyway.
        \_ must be work of Saddam Hussin
        \_ nice design, God!
        \_ must be work of Saddam Hussin
        \_ News Flash: UN Inspectors ordered in to investigate mass graves in
           SF. Bush administration denounces Newsom's stuuborn refusal to
           produce evidence of destruction of chemical weapons.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:40361 Activity:nil
10/31   CIFS sure seems to work as advertised alot better than NFS, isn't
        this a pretty big advantage of living in MS land vs. linux/solaris??
        \_ I'm going to cry.
            \_ please don't cry.  Tell us why this makes you want to cry.
               \_ I'm not the one who originally said "cry" but when I was
                  at Decru several times a day I would hear the engrs
                  implementing the CIFS side of things yell "are you
                  shitting me?" Apparently not even MS follows the CIFS
                  specs correctly. It may look like it works well but
                  behind the scenes it's REALLY ugly. CIFS may be decent
                  but it's overall ugly.
                  \- i was speaking to that samba carter fellow and asking why
                     somethign was designed the way it was. he explained
                     "in cifs ... locking ..." and i said "i must be missing
                     someting because that is insane and doesnt make sense."
                     then he told me "nope, you've understood it correctly".
2005/10/31 [Uncategorized] UID:40362 Activity:nil
10/31   Anyone know of a website that lists the odds of getting
killed/wounded for a us serviceperson in iraq?
2005/10/31-11/1 [Health/Disease/General, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40363 Activity:nil
10/31   Some tuna and sharks are partially warm blooded:
        http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=104543&org=NSF&from=news
        \_ must be work of Saddam Hussin
2005/10/31-11/2 [Uncategorized] UID:40364 Activity:nil
10/31   <deleted due to lazy formatting>
2005/10/31-11/2 [Uncategorized] UID:40365 Activity:nil
10/31   Something to think about (cartoon by Ann Telnaes)
        http://www.anntelnaes.com
        \- look at the difference in treatment between john walker lindh
           and his various non-white brothers in arms. ok it does seem like
           he got a pretty harsh sentence but 1. let's see how long he actually
           serves 2. he got quick access to the courts vs. the people the
           administration doesnt want to give a day in court ever 3. why is
           he being treated as an american citizen. what exactly more would he
           have needed to do to lose his american citizenship?
           \_ A better example is Jose Padilla who is an American citizen
              and is being held without charges. I think it's year 3 now.
              \- padillia is one of the people i refer to in point #2.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Health/Eyes] UID:40366 Activity:nil
10/31   PHaSRs on Stun Captain?
        http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001911.html
        \_ Fascinating (and cool), but doesn't that require some remarkable
           marksmanship?
           \_ You are thinking single target. This is crowd control. Think
              mob. And you don't need to get everyone, just enough to deter.
              Say 25% of the people up front. That'll cause a mass retreat.

        http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=104543&org=NSF&from=news
2005/10/31-11/2 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:40367 Activity:nil
10/31   http://www.realestateabc.com/insights/doomandgloom.htm
        Housing will not bubble! We're still looking much better than
        the 70s. So go ahead and buy your house. BTW this site has a
        lot of cool statistics and graphs.
        \_ In the 70s, inflation is really high, and I suspect there's
           a corresponding rise in wages.  These days inflation has been
           low until recently, and wage growth is slow.
        \_ In the 70s, inflation is really high, and there's a corresponding
           rise in wages.  These days inflation has been low until recently,
           and wage growth is slow.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Industry/Jobs, Uncategorized/Spanish] UID:40368 Activity:kinda low
10/31   No name employer X offered a nice job but gave me only 2 weeks to
        respond. Big name employer Y has just started interviewing me
        (phone) but X offer will expire in 3 days. What's the best way
        to delay X? By the way for tech jobs how long do offers
        usually last? 2 weeks? 2 months?
        \_ All the stuff below is true.  However, you must also consider
           which place you'd actually want to work at if salary wasn't an
           issue.  Your work environment is more important than your income
           after reaching a certain income level.  I've walked away from very
           high paying jobs because I absolutely hated going in everyday.
        \_ I've had this exact situation come up before.  When I got the
           offer from company X, I told them I had promised company Y that
           I would give them <insert number> time and asked if they were
           willing to leave the offer open.  The HR person said no, but the
           hiring manager overrode her.  Offer letters almost always expire
           in about a week to ten days unless the company has a 2nd choice
           they don't want to lose if the 1st choice falls through, or if
           there is budgeting pressure, such as a potential hiring freeze
           when the fiscal Q4 starts...
        \_ Take the offer from X. If you get Y then tell them. This
           happens all the time. People stress over it, but that's
           reality. They have no problem firing your ass, so don't feel
           guilty if you have to tell them 3 days in that you are leaving
           for Y. They'll be upset, but they won't blacklist you or
           anything.
           \_ Basically, you can expect that you will no longer be welcome at
              X anymore, if you ever end up wanting to go back to them.
              If you think you may end up wanting to work for X one day, tell
              them straight up you think their offer is good, but you would
              like more time to evaluate your options.  Sound reasonable?
              \_ Yes, I agree that X may not take you back again. However,
                 they may. It's not deceitful to leave in that situation.
                 How often do people gets offers after they've already taken
                 'their best'? OTOH, if you ask them for more time you may end
                 up with neither X nor Y. The best way to play it is to
                 take X unless there's some overwhelming reason you don't
                 even want to risk pissing them off.
                 \_ I think the risk/benefit is better for my option than yours
                    in general, but I guess you think the opposite.
                    Anyway, plenty of room for opinion, op can decide.
                    \_ Depends on how badly you need a job. If OP can risk
                       losing both then go for it. I really needed a job.
                       At some point X will say 'Is there some reason you
                       are taking so long to decide?' at which point you either
                       need to take X or risk losing it. You can't have cake
                       and eat it, too. My point is that if you upset X
                       it's not the end of the world. If you don't have
                       to, because you have the luxury of time/money then
                       don't. Don't worry about working for X again,
                       because if you don't want to work there now, then
                       why would you want to later? That's when you need
                       to shit or get off the pot. IOW, your strategy is
                       better but only works for so long. Eventually,
                       you come to the same point in the process (where
                       you must decide). In that case, just take X. There are
                       a lot more companies out there and X may even forgive.
                       More than likely, X will become a distant memory
                       anyway. I am most grateful for the jobs I didn't
                       get/hang on to.
                \_ I say it IS deceitful. They probably tell their other
                   candidates that the job is taken. Having said that, it's
                   probably not that big a deal. But, it's a small world and
                   you might just be screwing yourself a bit down the road
                   even if it doesn't involve X anymore. So I'd try hard not
                   to do that.
                   \_ It is not deceitful to leave X for Y if you've
                      already given up on Y and then they offer you the
                      job later (for example). There are lots of legitimate
                      reasons you might take X and then leave shortly afer.
                      We've had people relocate and then they get homesick
                      (or their wife does). X doesn't have to know the
                      specifics. They'll understand.
                      \_ Uh, in this case you haven't given up on Y and
                         are still actively pursuing jobs while accepting X.
                         I say it's deceitful. Whatever.
                         \_ How would you ever get another job if you
                            inform your current employer every time you
                            are interviewing?
        \_ Offers are anywhere from 3 days to a whole year or more if you
           interned and they loved you.  But in most cases, I'd say it averages
           a week to 1.5 weeks depending on when they offered.
        \_ Tell Big Name Employer Y that you're considering another job offer,
           and if they want to stay in the running, they need to move you
           through their interview process quickly.
           \_ This does work and you should do this, but it won't help
              with whether to take X or not. I've found it can prod Y
              into faster action, though. ("Are you going to make me an
              offer or not?") If Y still diddles you are at Square One.
        \_ Ethically, you should do a hybrid of the suggestions. Tell X you
           are interviewing with Y and ask for an extension. Tell Y you have
           a job offer and query if they can expedite your interview process.
           However, You can't ask X to hold you a place forever. At some point,
           you'll need to decide if you want job X or job Y. Figure that out
           and apply as directed.
           \_ Yes, and if Y hasn't made an offer then just take X. If
              later Y comes through and you prefer Y then just take Y and
              leave X. This is simple, folks.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Consumer/TV] UID:40369 Activity:nil
10/31   36+ inches Plasma HD TV or LCD TV?  Brand and model?  Really thinking
        more about 40-50 inches.  All positive and negative suggestions and
        comments appreciated.  Thanks.
        \_ Yes.  Yes.  Interesting.  You're welcome!
2017/11/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/24   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:31 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>