10/25   To Politburo:
        The next time you decide to limit or modify a CSUA-wide feature, can
                                                      \_ It wasn't a CSUA-wide
                                                         feature.  It was a
                                                         www-wide feature.
                                                         -emarkp
                                                         \_ You are splitting
                                                            hairs.
        you please please please consult motd or a well-populated mailing
        list first, you know, just to get the popular opinion?  Thanks.
        -soda user
        \_ Politburo voted to *ask* kchang to turn off the attribution
           in KAIS MOTD, and specifically said that they weren't going
           to sorry him or anything if he refused.  Read Brett's message
           carefully: the first paragraph is from politburo, the second
           is the opinion of one random person on root, and the third is
           from Brett personally.
           \_ Nice revisionist history.  Politburo and root staff as bodies
              asked kchang to turn off attribution.  One staff member (turns
              out to be Jon) said adding a disclaimer would be sufficient.
              (BTW, in my universe, the word of one root staff member is
              worth much less the the combined opinion of the politburo and
              the root staff.  Perhaps it is different in your universe.)
              There was a threat of account shut down if kchang does not reply
              (not clear who the source of the threat is).  And then there
              was a threat from Brett that kchang may violate the not-a-hoser
              rule.  It is only in a *later* email that the hoser threat was
              removed in a "clarification".
           \_ BTW, the time line isn't clear.  It is clear that Brett
              threatened kchang with hoserfication.  It is also clear that
              the hoserfication threat was later removed in a clarification.
              When did the politburo had the finding that kchang was not being
              a hoser?  Was it before Brett's threat, and therefore Brett
              had no grounds for his threat?  Was it after the threat, so
              Brett thought he could legitimately threaten?  Is misrepresenting
              the opinion of the politburo in an official communication a
              sorryable offense?
        \_ As amckee explained it, "[the CSUA] is not a democracy.  We're
           [the Politburo] democratically elected, but once in office we have
           near complete authority to implement the policies we see fit.
           Think communist russia, not democratic greece."   They are under
           no obligation to consider alternative points of view, and apparently
           they have no inclination to do so in any case.
           \- ObStarttheOutOfContextTimer
           \_ Time for another soda alias, keystone-kop@soda: amckee
              \_ Wouldn't that be kritical-keystone-kasset?
                \_ I nominate IWillBlackListYou for greatest troll
                   of all time.
                   \_ I dunno, it's got pretty stiff competition: GUN DUEL
                      anyone?
                      \_ Yeah--that one worked perfectly.  -John
        \_ So besides being ticked off by the tone of the email, what is
           kchang's reason for not putting up the disclaimer and saving all
           of us eyestrain from reading an evergrowing motd?
           \_ kchang is under no obligation to provide the MOTD threading
              service.  He did it as a favor, and I assume he no longer feels
              a desire to do favors for the current regime.
        \_ Maybe politburo should start drafting these things as a
           committe instead of delegating people to do it.  You guys keep
           putting your collective foot in your mouth. -jrleek
        \_ Come back to the five and dime, Kevin Chang, Kevin Chang....

10/25   What Congress Did Is Disgusting
        http://realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-10_26_05_JS.html
        \_ Google maps image of where the bridge would go:
           http://maps.google.com/maps?q=ketchikan,+ak&ll=55.355648,-131.711569&spn=0.041162,0.147749&t=h&hl=en
           http://tinyurl.com/bqr2f (maps.google.com)
           More info on the Gravina bridge
           http://www.taxpayer.net/Transportation/gravinabridge.htm
        \_ Something liberals and conservatives can agree on. -emarkp
        \_ This seems made up:  "Last week, Alaska's other senator,
           Lisa Murkowski, said it would be "offensive" not to spend your
           money on her bridge.  When she first became a senator, I asked
           her if Republicans believed in smaller government. She was
           unusually candid: 'We want smaller government. But, boy, I sure
           want more highways and more stuff, whatever the stuff is.'"
           \_ It's john stossel.  don't expect too much.
              http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/JohnStossel/2005/09/07/155361.html
              http://csua.org/u/du4
              Price gouging saves lives!
              \_ Soo soo sook!

10/25   jctwu: who needs the popular opinion when you are in power? Get lost.

10/26   Everyone who suggested NYC stuff, Thank you. --scotsman

10/26   this is neat
        http://illicitohio.com/SBNO/heritage/heritage01.html - danh

10/26   emarkp, for a Mormon, you have a serious attitude problem.
        ilyas and aaron stopped posting and have moved on with their
        lives. There is life outside motd, like bible study or something
        much more constructive. Get a fucking life you fucking self
        righteous nut. This is the last time I'm posting on motd.
        \_ Good riddance. -emarkp
        \_ Good riddance.  I think anonymous trolls like you who call out
           people by name are the scourge of motd.  I'd be happy to discuss
           what you think my "attitude" problem is.  You even have my email
           address.  Otherwise, it's prbobably a very good thing that you're
           bowing out of motd. -emarkp
        \_ Sheesh.  I've been posting to the motd and walling for the better
           part of 15 years and in all that time I've never been threatened
           or insulted to any kind of level that bothers me much, even by
           people who obviously hold opposite viewpoints on a wide variety
           of topics and total freaks like dickylee.  In fact, I believe motd
           and wall have actually become much more civil over time, probably
           because of the higher average age/maturity of the contributors.
           Maybe people should consider upgrading to a thicker skin.  If you
           can't take the heat, stay off of the motd, so I agree with emarkp
           here ... -eric
           \_ You must be /this/ tall to ride the motd. Parental guidance
              suggested.
              \_ I am /that/ tall, and I've been on nearly as long as ERic,
                 and I completely agree. --erikred
                 \_ eric or ERic? Because I'm eric not ERic -eric
                    \_ whoops, sorry. I meant ERic. mistaken identity. -erikred
                        \_ You said ERic and meant ERic and that's mistaken
                           identity?
                           \_ Are two people named "Eric" having a debate about
                              a third person named "Eric", or am I going slowly
                              insane?
                           \_ I hate you people....I really, really do.
                                                             -confused sodan
                                \_ Sigh it's not complicated.  You see:
                                   eric == eric@soda
                                   ERic == mehlhaff@soda
                                   erik == erikred@soda
                                   Since I wrote the bit above I'm confused why
                                   he talks about ERic when that's not me.
                                   -eric (the one true eric)

                 \_ Then we agree to agree.
        \_ i think there's just one guy who trolls specifically like this.
           anyone know who it is?  is it someone posting via an outside-soda
           gateway?
           \_ It's kchang.  -tom
              \_ is it kchang or a kchang-owned process that someone else used
                 to troll?
                 \_ My assessment of it being kchang has nothing to do with
                    idle times or running processes.  -tom
                    \_ yes we know, you've been sniffing the engineering
                       network for quite some time now, you phreak.
                    \_ Yes, tom knows all and sees all. -emarkp
                       \_ I just put the stones inside my magic hat and
                          it came to me.
                          I really don't think there are a large number of
                          schizophrenic stalkers obsessed with who is
                          posting what on the MOTD.  -tom
                          \_ tom, I don't want to know anything about your
                             stones. -emarkp

10/25   To Politburo:
        The next time you decide to limit or modify a feature available to
        many CSUA users, can you please please please consult motd or a
        well-populated mailing list first, you know, just to get the popular
        opinion?  Thanks. -soda user
        \_ Politburo voted to *ask* kchang to turn off the attribution
           in KAIS MOTD, and specifically said that they weren't going
           to sorry him or anything if he refused.  Read Brett's message
           carefully: the first paragraph is from politburo, the second
           is the opinion of one random person on root, and the third is
           from Brett personally.
           \_ Nice revisionist history.  Politburo and root staff as bodies
              asked kchang to turn off attribution.  One staff member (turns
              out to be Jon) said adding a disclaimer would be sufficient.
              (BTW, in my universe, the word of one root staff member is
              worth much less the the combined opinion of the politburo and
              the root staff.  Perhaps it is different in your universe.)
              There was a threat of account shut down if kchang does not reply
              (not clear who the source of the threat is).  And then there
              was a threat from Brett that kchang may violate the not-a-hoser
              rule.  It is only in a *later* email that the hoser threat was
              removed in a "clarification".
              \_ even if I was the "*one*" root person who said this, I
                 am of the general impression that others on root felt that
                 it was a reasonable approach to take. --Jon
                 \_ Well, you and others on root may have felt that.  However,
                    I don't know that from reading the email kchang posted.
                    In that email, it seems quite clear that it was the
                    request of both the politburo and the root staff (as a
                    body) that the attribution function be turned off.  Does
                    kchang have a good enough pulse on the mood of root staff
                    to be able to infer that that position is not final,
                    to be able to infer that that request is not final,
                    despite the letter of the email?  Where is Carmac when
                    you need him?
              \_ It sounds like we agree.  Politburo voted to make a non-
                 threatening request.  Brett sent out a threatening request,
                 misleadingly presenting jon's and his own opinions (which
                 I agree are worth a lot less than a politburo decision)
                 as official.  Politburo is to blame for lots of things,
                 but I don't think this is one of them. -pp
                 \_ no name, no weight. Your post will be ignored.
                 \_ Would you plese show me where in
                    http://csua.com says that
                    the politburo "specifically said that they weren't
                    going to sorry him or anything if he refused" per your
                    original claim?
           \_ BTW, the time line isn't clear.  It is clear that Brett
              threatened kchang with hoserfication.  It is also clear that
              the hoserfication threat was later removed in a clarification.
              When did the politburo had the finding that kchang was not being
              a hoser?  Was it before Brett's threat, and therefore Brett
              had no grounds for his threat?  Was it after the threat, so
              Brett thought he could legitimately threaten?  Is misrepresenting
              the opinion of the politburo in an official communication a
              sorryable offense?
        \_ As amckee explained it, "[the CSUA] is not a democracy.  We're
           [the Politburo] democratically elected, but once in office we have
           near complete authority to implement the policies we see fit.
           Think communist russia, not democratic greece."   They are under
           no obligation to consider alternative points of view, and apparently
           they have no inclination to do so in any case.
           \- ObStarttheOutOfContextTimer
           \_ Time for another soda alias, keystone-kop@soda: amckee
              \_ Wouldn't that be kritical-keystone-kasset?
                \_ I nominate IWillBlackListYou for greatest troll
                   of all time.
                   \_ I dunno, it's got pretty stiff competition: GUN DUEL
                      anyone?
                      \_ Yeah--that one worked perfectly.  -John
                         \_ That was brilliant. Did the perpetrator (who
                            should be proud of their handiwork, I think)
                            ever come forward? -- ulysses
                            \_ It was Mark Felt.  -John
                            \_ It was I.
        \_ So besides being ticked off by the tone of the email, what is
           kchang's reason for not putting up the disclaimer and saving all
           of us eyestrain from reading an evergrowing motd?
           \_ kchang is under no obligation to provide the MOTD threading
              service.  He did it as a favor, and I assume he no longer feels
              a desire to do favors for the current regime.
              \_ We need a regime change. The current administration is as
                 compentent and likeable as the Bush administration.
                 Oh and if you ever find out who I am, please don't
                 squish me.                             -scared poster
                 \_ The current regime has not invaded any other campus
                    groups unilaterally for no reason afaik.
                    \_ I predict that if they did that, alumni support
                       would increase, not decrease.
        \_ Maybe politburo should start drafting these things as a
           committe instead of delegating people to do it.  You guys keep
           putting your collective foot in your mouth. -jrleek
        \_ Come back to the five and dime, Kevin Chang, Kevin Chang....

10/26   Bored? Look here:  http://www.zeronews-fr.com/flash/quarter.php

10/26   Let the race to the bottom begin!

10/26   Thank you so much brett! You're doing a heck of a job.
        Mission accomplished.
        \_ I miss Intellidiff.  It was cool even without the guessing.
           \_ Hello kchang! I love how you masquerade as an anonymous
              h0zer to support yourself. Get a life.
              \_ Err.. actually, that was me, you anonymous h0zer. -jrleek
                 \_ Err.. in that case, get a life.  -kchang hater
                 \_ No, I'm pp! -spartacus
           \_ So do i. It sucks having to go through the entire motd
              just to see what's changed.
              \_ whine whine whine. Why don't you guys do something about it?
              \_ Um, cp and diff?

10/26   Any recommendations for Project management software, must be
        free$$ and run on Solaris/Linux/Windows. dotproject?
        \_ Hate to say it, but MS Project is the de facto standard. It
           is very expensive. I haven't found anything free that does
           close to what it does.
           \_ Which is what?  I looked at it in the past but wasn't impressed,
              though it's likely I didn't know what to look for.  --darin
              \_ Help manage a project? Scheduling, milestones, resources,
                 task management and planning, Gantt charts, etc.

10/26   Grand jury composition:
        "Like the jury's forewoman, the majority are African American women
        who appear to be middle-age or older. The jury includes at least two
        black men, two older white women and three white men. One trim,
        agile retiree with white hair often entered the grand jury room with
        his bicycle helmet in hand."
        ROVE, LIBBY == FUCKED
        \_ Why do you think the jury composition completely determines outcome?
           -emarkp
                \- well teh grand jury is not the same as a jury in a criminal
                   trial, but for the latter, havent you heard of the
                   Twinkie Defense ... do you know the history behind it?
                   \_ The Twinkie Defense is an urban legend.
                      \_ How so? I might call the term "Twinkie Defense" an
                         exaggeration but the testimony is public record, I
                         would think. -- ulysses
                         \_ http://www.snopes.com
                            \_ Thanks. That was a good read. I basically have
                               no problem with it except one thing - do juries
                               necessarily ignore parenthetical remarks?
                               \- ok fair point. my point was really jury
                                  consultants are used in high $ high profile
                                  cases for a reason. "old school" jury
                                  selection was sort of bogus [people who
                                  cross their arms are stern, pro-prosecution
                                  types] but "scientific" jury selection
                                  really can help you tailor your challeges
                                  to get a pool that will more much more
                                  inclined to buy various claims a "random
                                  selection" or peers would not. the dan white
                                  case was one of the cases that put jury
                                  consultancy on the map. and more generally
                                  there is certainly forum shopping both for
                                  legal rules but also jury composition.
                                  consultancy on the map.
                   \_ FYI, the "twinkie defense" would not be possible
                      today b/c ca has abolished both diminished capacity
                      and the ability of experts witnesses to testify re
                      the mental state of a defendant at the time he com-
                      mitted the crime (Cal. Penal Code Sec 29).
           \_ because they're guilty as fuck, so they'd only have a chance with
              Texas republican rednecks.  -tom
        \_ The grand jury is utilized only for indictments. Just because you
           are indicted doesn't mean you are guilty.

10/26   Has anyone lived in Emeryville Watergate?  How is it?  How safe is it,
        especially late at night?
        \_ It's pretty safe, other than the occasional late-night politically
           motivated dirty-tricks break in.
        \_ I worked in the Watergate office towers next door for a while, and
           many of my coworkers lived in the housing complex. They were all
           pretty fond of it. The area never felt unsafe to me walking around
           late at night, and the views can be pretty impressive, depending on
           where you are in the complex. -gm

10/26   Rosa Parks died on Monday:
        http://tinyurl.com/8a9br
        \_ apple has a nice tribute to her on their web page.
           \_ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2005/10/rosaparks
        \_ "What are you staring at, Mr. President?"
           http://news.yahoo.com/photo/051025/480/ny13710250245