Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:22 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
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2005/10/22-24 [Uncategorized] UID:40223 Activity:kinda low
10/22   Gen-X is 27-40:
        http://www.nahb.org/news_details.aspx?sectionID=137&newsID=1496
        \_ 62.4% of statistics are made up on the spot, the other 47.9% are
           pulled out of someone's ass when they have an article deadline.
           "Gen-X" means whatever some starving socialist wants it to mean.
           What else would socialists do but invent meaningless terms for
           their books?
           \_ socialist?
              \_ heh, sorry, it was early.  sociologists.
                 \_ This reminds me of the time I was standing in a Berkeley
                    dumpster digging for books in the middle of the night, and
                    this other random other guy jumped in and was also digging
                    for books, and for some reason called me a Stalinist.
                    Stalinist?? Only in Berkeley.
                        \_ I thought we were an autonomous collective.
                           \_ You're fooling yourself.
2005/10/22-24 [Science/GlobalWarming, Reference/RealEstate] UID:40224 Activity:nil
10/21   http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/disillus.html
        Housing disillusion. You can skip the last paragraph on Jesus Christ
        \_ Uh, this article was written in 1991, and turned out to be
           completely wrong.  -tom
        \_ What is the point of posting this article, unless it is to show
           that gloom and doomers are always with us?
2005/10/22-24 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car] UID:40225 Activity:very high
10/21   Dear house owners. How much time/week do you spend on house upkeep?
        In another word, how much time do you spend on mowing the lawn,
        pulling weeds, adding fertilizers, watering bald spots, adjusting
        sprinklers, cleaning up the garage (which by the way is used for
        storage instead of storing the car), changing toilet assemblies,
        spraying pesticides, and other things? If you pay someone to do
        it and spend no time on it, please respond with the price you
        pay. I'm asking because as the only son who grew up in the suburbs,
        I had to do all of the above and I HATED IT. I just want to
        find out how much time and/or money grown-ups spend on these
        things, and why people like the routine suburbia lifestyle. Thanks.
        \_ Gardener, 1/wk, $120/month.  House cleaner, 1/wk, 2 persons 4
           hours each, $70/wk.
        \_ Maid service 2/month: $80x2.  A few hours/month on other stuff and
           of course the garage is used for storge.  It was designed for it.
           Why do people like the suburbs?  They don't necessarily.  If you
           have kids putting them in a city school can be disasterous.  Look
           at the SF school system for an example of that.  Lack of space for
           same kids in city.  Lots of people don't like the cramped and often
           loud and/or dirty city living option.  Many other "the city isn't
           where I'd want to be" reasons.  The suburbs are just where you can
           live and still be close enough to have a job.  So you changed toilet
           assemblies so your mom wouldn't have to?  Ok, she could pay a
           plumber to do it and there'd be that many fewer toys at Xmas.  I did
           chores.  You did chores.  Kids do chores (or should).  Welcome to
           the middle class.  There are worse things that could've happened to
           you growing up.
        \_ simple.  buy a tonwhouse.  save lots of trouble.
           \_ How is the SF school system disasterous? Last I checked, they
           \_ How is the SF school system disastrous? Last I checked, they
              were better than the statewide average and the West side high
              schools are particularly good. -ausman
              \_ You're kidding right?  And how do you get into one of those
                 elite schools?  And if you don't, then what?  And if you
                 don't live near your school which is likely how does your
                 kid get there?  Can a grade schooler drive?  Can every
                 high schooler afford a car?  Sit on a bus for a few hours
                 each day?  C'mon....
                 \_ You get into Lincoln and Washington just like you get into
                    every high school in San Francisco. If you have good enough
                    test scores, you get into Lowell and get an education as
                    good as the priciest private school. I grew up in a rural
                    region and took a bus 1/2 hr each way until I could afford
                    to buy my own car. I did not find that particularly onerous.
                    Do you really think it takes "a few hours" to get anywhere
                    in a city that is 7 miles by 8 miles? I could walk anywhere
                    in The City in less than a few hours.
                    I just pulled down the STAR results for San Francisco and
                    compared them to Orange and Riverside Counties, two
                    California suburban counties and they compare favorably.
                    \_ How long ago were you in school?  Read the papers to
                       see what's going on there today.  And yes, a school
                       bus has to make many stops, obey traffic laws cars
                       tend to ignore and drive slow, so yeah, an hour or
                       more each way wouldn't be odd.  I've walked across the
                       city from the market area west to the beach.  You're
                       not saying a kid should walk that to school?  Why do
                       you even mention walking?  And here's a concept: why
                       should a kid have to get high test scores to get into
                       a particular school on the other side of the city?
                       Why can't the local school be as good as any other?
                       Why is there a tiny number of elite schools and the
                       rest are dismal anti-academic pits?
                       \_ Why isn't everyone above average, is that what
                          you are seriously asking? It is obvious that
                          \_ Not every school can be above average, but every
                             school can and should be good.
                             \_ Lowell is elite because they are very
                                selective about their admission criteria.
                                \_ Are you implying that non-selective schools
                                   cannot be good?  Otherwise I fail to
                                   understand how your point respond to the
                                   previous poster's that all schools should
                                   be good.  In any case, Lowell entrance is
                                   selective only if you're a non-protected
                                   minority.  Entrance for protected minorities
                                   is relatively easy, no?
                                   \_ No, I honestly don't think all schools
                                      can be good. Can you point to one
                                      school in an impoverished area that is
                                      good? Schools can only do so much.
                                      Lowell is a great school because it is
                                      selective. There are good schools in
                                      San Francisco and elsewhere that are not
                                      "selective" overtly, but they still
                                      select from an educated and privileged
                                      section of the population.
                                      Having said that, yes it is too bad
                                      that we don't do a better job educating
                                      everyone. Holding up SF schools as an
                                      example of a disastrous failure is not
                                      a very strong one.
                                   is relatively trivial, no?
                                      \_ So good schools are good because they
                                         only let in smart kids?  So you're
                                         saying it doesn't matter how much
                                         funding, what teachers, which books,
                                         or anything else; just put all the
                                         smart kids together and you get a
                                         good school.  And the opposite is
                                         true?  Put the less than brilliant
                                         kids together and you get a bad
                                         school?  It seems the way to get
                                         decent but not fantastic schools for
                                         everyone is to spread those smart
                                         kids around.
                                         \_ Perhaps, but I don't know how you
                                            are going to convince parents to
                                            do that. If you really believe
                                            what you preach, why didn't you
                                            go to SJ State instead of UCB?
                                            By the way, your technique is
                                            practiced in many states throughout
                                            the upper midwest, to good effect,
                                            so you certainly have a point.
                                         \_ When I went to Lowell, it was
                                            massively underfunded and falling
                                            apart at the seams.  It was a good
                                            school that produced excellent
                                            students due to a combination of
                                            letting in smart people, who didn't
                                            drag the other people in their
                                            classes down, and great, dedicated
                                            teachers.  Naturally this is a
                                            generalization--there were a few
                                            morons, both students and teachers.
                                            However, their negative effect was
                                            minimal due to the above.  No, not
                                            everyone can be a winner, life is
                                            not fair.  And yes, most students
                                            there "had" to commute.  Like a
                                            lot of Cal students commute-you
                                            do it because you value the
                                            education over your comfort. -John
                                         \_ I read a research study on this
                                            for colleges, not high schools.
                                            The conclusion is that the school
                                            only matters in one case - a
                                            top student goes to a bad school.
                                            then the student's achievement
                                            could be affected.  in all other
                                            cases - good student going to
                                            good school, or midrange school,
                                            average student going to good
                                            school or average school or bad
                                            school, etc., the school doesn't
                                            make a difference.
                          you nothing about San Francisco schools and
                          barely anything about San Francisco. K-6 schools
                          barely anything about San Francisco. K-5 schools
                          are mostly within walking distance and high schoolers
                          take MUNI, not a school bus. My commute to work
                          is 35-45 minutes, I don't see why my (future) teenage
                          daughter shouldn't have a similar commute.
                          \_ Because she's a kid and kids shouldn't have to
                             commute.  You have a choice in the matter.  Your
                             child is stuck with your decisions.  That you
                             can't see that is oddly disturbing.
                             \_ It is nice that you want to give your child
                                every advantage in the world, but it might
                                set them up for some dissapointments when
                                they have to face the real world.
                                \_ Uhm, so you're "toughening her up"?  The
                                   real world is there in her face every day.
                                   I could go on but our philosophies are so
                                   different anything more I say would look
                                   like a personal insult and there's no need
                                   for that.  I'm ok agreeing to disagree if
                                   you are.  I'm stopping now.
                                   \_ I grew up in a rural area, where I had
                                      to get up at dawn to feed the chickens
                                      ducks and rabbits, collect the eggs
                                      and prepare breakfast for my seven
                                      siblings. Then I got on a half hour
                                      bus ride to school. After school, I helped
                                      in the garden, washed my own clothes and
                                      spent an hour a night washing dishes or
                                      doing other chores. I think that growing
                                      up like that made me a better person than
                                      my spoiled and self-indulgent classmates.
                                      I don't intend for my child to have that
                                      hard a life, but I don't want her to end
                                      up a spoiled princess either.
                                      my narcissistic and self-indulgent class-
                                      mates. I don't intend for my child to have
                                      that hard a life, but I don't want her to
                                      to work that hard, but I don't want her to
                                      end up a spoiled princess either.
                                      \- hear hear.
                          And you plan on moving to the suburbs to escape
                          what you percieve as "disastrous" urban schools,
                          but you decry the fact that some people prefer to
                          send their kids to better urban schools? Have you
                          ever heard of the term "hypocrisy"?
                          send their kids to better urban schools? Maybe the
                          reason some schools aren't as good as they might
                          be is because a bunch of overly fearful parents
                          moved to the suburbs to isolate themselves from
                          poor people and other "dangerous" sorts. The truth
                          is that the cities are no more dangerous than the
                          suburbs, it is just that the risks are different.
                          \_ What he is asking is why everyone isn't able
                             to obtain a quality education in SF. The best
                             schools are so much better than even the
                             average schools. This is different from, say,
                             LA Unified where pretty much all the schools suck
                             equally. Personally, I'd avoid public schools
                             altogether. If you can afford to live in SF
                             then you can afford a private school.
                             \_ Lots of parents look for houses in areas with
                                good schol disctricts, so they can send their
                                kids to public schools and apply the money
                                that would have gone to a private school
                                tuition to the mortgage instead.  The question
                                is whether it's to educational benefit of
                                children (in the aggregate, assuming a random
                                distribution of children) to live in a city
                                like San Francisco, where they have a chance
                                to end up in some truly awful schools, or in
                                a city like San Jose, where the quality range
                                of school is narrower, or in a suburban town,
                                where the quality range is narrow indeed.
                                There are of course non-educational pros and
                                cons for living in each city, and the emphasis
                                placed on education varies from family to
                                family.  But, I suspect, using San Francisco
                                as an example, unless one has a reasonable
                                I suspect, unless one has a reasonable
                                expectation that one's child will end up in
                                one of the top few schools, it's better for
                                the child's education to live in a town where
                                the likelihood of going to a bad school is low.
                                family.  But, I suspect, unless one has a
                                reasonable expectation that one's child will
                                end up in one of the top few schools, it's
                                better for the child's education to live in a
                                town where the likelihood of going to a bad
                                school is low.
                                There are of course non-educational pros and
                                cons for living in each city, and the emphasis
                                placed on education varies from family to
                                family.
                                \_ You are guaranteed one of your top three
                                   choices of high schools in San Francisco.
                                   So just put down Washington, Lincoln and
                                   Wallenbeg and you are guaranteed a good
                                   school in a safe neighborhood. Any irrational
                                   fear of something else bad happening to you
                                   is simply that, an irrational fear.
                                   \_ Ok so if *everyone* is *guaranteed* one
                                      of their top three choices, why doesn't
                                      everyone in SF put down the same three
                                      top schools and leave all the rest
                                      empty?
                                      \_ All right, I guess I was wrong. I was
                                      \_ All right, I guess I misspoke. I was
                                         repeating what I had read in The
                                         Examiner. It seems that you have to
                                         put down 7 choices and even then they
                                         Examiner. I guess you have to put
                                         down 7 choices and even then they
                                         not guaranteed. The Examiner claims
                                         that 99% of parents get one of their
                                         top three choices, at least in 2003.
                                         Circumstances, can of course change.
                                         But they can change anywhere, even in
                                         a tony suburb.
                                         \_ So, living in a city like SF _does_
                                            mean your kid can end up in a
                                            shitty school on the other side of
                                            town and there's nothing you can
                                            do about it?  Thus, we see a very
                                            good reason for parents to live in
                                            a place where there is no chance of
                                            going to a bad school and a good
                                            chance of a better school.  It
                                            means sacrificing the cool city
                                            life but sacrificing is what good
                                            parents do.
                                            \_ Or you can spend more time with
                                               your kids to make sure they do
                                               well in their studies / get into
                                               good schools.
                                               \_ You do realize that your
                                                  solution is not scalable.
                                                  \_ In what sense? If you have
                                                     lots of children? Or to all
                                                     parents?
                                                     \_ The latter mostly,
                                                        though the former to a
                                                        lesser degree also.
                                                     \_ Your solution only works
                                                        if most parents do not
                                                        stress their kids'
                                                        education.  If many
                                                        parents try to make
                                                        sure their kids do
                                                        well in their studies,
                                                        then almost none of
                                                        them can have a
                                                        reasonable expectation
                                                        of getting into the top
                                                        few schools.
                                            \_ In the 1% case, you can either:
                                               a) send your kids to private school
                                               a) send your kids to private
                                                  school
                                               or
                                               b) move to the suburbs then.
                                               This is what I plan on doing, if
                                               I talk my wife into it. -ausman
                         \_ So the solution to the problem of not every student
                            getting a quality education in a city is to move
                            to a gated suburb and isolate yourself from the
                            rest of the world? Perhaps the real question is
                            why doesn't every student get a quality education
                            everywhere, but asking that question might force
                            the questioner to admit some of the responsibility
                            for the failure onto themselves, which they seem
                            spectacularly unable or unwilling to do.
                            \_ Uhm, where are all these 'gated suburbs' of
                               which you speak?  Could you point out a few
                               because I haven't seen any.  I do like your
                               rhetorical bit in the second half though.  A
                               nice combination of 'high horse-ism', a touch
                               of holier-than-thou mixed with a dash of
                               you-selfish-bastard.  Could you possibly take
                               a moment to explain how a city school in some
                               other county sucking is in any way the fault
                               of someone in a suburb, mythically gated or
                               not, 20+ miles away?
                               \_ Because there are only so many dollars in
                                  the world and so many gifted teachers. If
                                  Blackhawk takes more than its share, then
                                  there is less to go around to the rest.
                                  I am kind of astonished that I would have
                                  to explain this to an engineer.
                                  Shorebird Islands in Redwood City and
                                  Silver Creek Valley Country Club in San
                                  Jose are gated, two that I found using
                                  google in sixty seconds. Since 40% of new
                                  developments in California are gated, you
                                  must not have looked very hard.
                                  \_ Redwood City and SJ?  Yech.  I would never
                                     live in such a place so you're right, I
                                     didn't look very hard in such places.
                                     Anyway, what you seem to be saying is that
                                     a district that can afford to pay teachers
                                     better is somehow cheating and robbing a
                                     poorer district of their rightfully
                                     deserved quality teachers.  However, we
                                     see John posting that Lowell was a broken
                                     pit when he went there and someone else
                                     posted about a study (yes, college, not
                                     HS, but it's what we've got) that said
                                     good students tend to do well where ever
                                     they go and bad students do poorly and
                                     etc.  So what exactly are the people in
                                     SJ stealing from SF?  Smart kids?
                                     \_ It wasn't a total loss; it was very
                                        mediocre and underfunded in terms of
                                        infrastructure, not some slum.  I read
                                        some figures at the time that LHS got
                                        fraction of the average per student $$
                                        of other SF public high schools--the
                                        rumor about at the time was that a few
                                        of the more crackpot supervisors like
                                        Harry Britt didn't like the idea of an
                                        "elite" school paid for by tax dollars
                                        and tried to kill it.  Whatever--what
                                        made it was the combination of really
                                        good and dedicated teachers and high
                                        qualiy (i.e. selected) students.  -John
                                        \_ Don't 50% of the graduates go to
                                           Stanford, Berkeley and or an Ivy?
                                           That sounds like a pretty good
                                           school to me.
                                           \_ It is (was?) a great school.
                                              That is my point.  It was so
                                              to a large degree because they
                                              only let good/smart students in
                                              and were able to focus on giving
                                              them a good education.  This
                                              seems to be some sort of elitist
                                              taboo in some cirles.  -John
                                              \_ Not elitist, but it sort
                                                 of disregards cause/effect.
                                                 If all you accept are
                                                 smart kids then you will
                                                 have a 'good school' by
                                                 the measures the state
                                                 uses. That school may or
                                                 may not actually be better.
                                     \_ You have never heard of Blackhawk? You
                                        are just a troll, wasting my time.
                                        \_ Blackhawk houses are all multi-
                                           million bucks.  That is hardly the
                                           suburbs or a typical gated
                                           community.  Famous/rich sports
                                           stars, actors, and the 'captains
                                           of industry' live there.  You're
                                           welcome to try again.
                                           \_ I sang at Behring's house last
                                              Christmas.  Good freakin' god.
                                              30k sq. ft. is a LOT of room.
                                              I think he's the only one
                                              anywhere in Blackhawk that
                                              actually knows how to spend his
                                              wealth well.  His gem and mineral
                                              collection is incredible.  He
                                              has some stunning ivory carvings
                                              in there as well.  Haven't seen
                                              his car museum yet, but it could
                                              be fun.
                                           \_ Blackhawk is not in the suburbs?
                                              Where is it then?
                                              \_ Mogadishu
                                      \_ No, I never stated or implied that anyone
                                         was "stealing" anything. That was your
                                         emotionally charged response to my
                                         suggestion that you are at least
                                         partially responsible for creating the
                                         kind of world you live in. When people
                                         with intelligence, talent, drive and
                                         creativity abandon a community, that
                                         community suffers. One certainly has
                                         the right to excercise your free will
                                         and abandon it, but to do so and then
                                         turn around and criticize that very
                                         same community for the consequences of
                                         your actions seems bizarre.
        \_ the one thing berkeley taught me is you don't have to live
           the boring, conformist, suburban life if you don't want to.
           \_ What I always found hilarious about a lot of Berkeley students
              is how uniquely concerned with being "nonconformist" so many of
              them were, instead of just getting on with their lives.  -John
              \_ I agree, and not just Berkeley but the whole Bay Area.
                 OTOH, if you venture outside of Berkeley/Bay
                 OTOH, when you venture outside of Berkeley/Bay
                 Area after graduation, the experience at Berkeley is a
                 good thing, in my opinion.
           \_ so you're living the same nonconformist life style everyone
              else in the bay area is?
              \_ don't feel offended.  if you want to live the boring,
                 conformist, suburban life, you are free to do so.
                 \_ offended? no one is offended.  quite the opposite. i
                    think your claims to kewlness are cute.
                    \_ "claims to kewlness"?  what've you been smoking?
                       I live in a city derided in a movie, or so I heard,
                       as the suburb of suburbs.
                       \_ then what are you talking about?
                          \_ huh?  what are you talking about?
                             \_ what are the two of you talking about?
                       \_ Ok, I've got to ask...what city do you live in? -!pp
                          \_ Must be LA.
                             \_ Or a suburb of chicago.
        \_ My downstairs tenants do all the gardening for free. I have to
           pay for things like plants and fertilizer, so it costs me about
           $10/mo. I have had to have two bathrooms rebuilt since I bought
           this place, which cost about $9k and took up at least three
           weekends of my time. I paid people to do most of the work, but
           I bought and delivered all the parts. I built a methlab in the
           I bought and delivered all the parts. I built a shed in the
           backyard from a kit, which cost me $500 and took up four weekends.
           As for cleaning, I spend the same amount as I did when I had
           an apartment, maybe a bit less, since my wife is less of a slob
           than my roommates were. -ausman
2005/10/22 [Uncategorized] UID:40226 Activity:nil
10/22   Does anyone know what metal coathangers are typically made from?
        \_ NO. MORE. WIRE. HANGERS!!!!
        \_ I'm going to guess some sort of metal.
           \_ My question was badly phrased.  I meant "what kind of metal"?
              Really I just want to know whether I can silver solder to them,
              but I think I'll just try it tonight.  I'll post the result if
              anyone cares.
2005/10/22-24 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:40227 Activity:nil
10/22   How come .nofinger does not prevent people from getting my last login
        remotely?
        \_ Make sure fingerd has permission to access your home directory --
           otherwise it can't see your .nofinger file.  Try "chmod a+x ~".
        \_ Can't reproduce.  Sanity check: soda has a hacked up fingerd.  Are
           you trying to put a .nofinger somewhere else?
2005/10/22-24 [Computer/SW/Editors/Vi, Computer/HW/Display] UID:40228 Activity:nil
10/22   160 degree immersive display:
        http://www.elumens.com/products/visionstation.html
2005/10/22-24 [Transportation/Car] UID:40229 Activity:nil
10/22   BMW building throwaway cars?
        http://tinyurl.com/8fbp6
        \_ Easy solution. Stop getting into accidents.
2005/10/22-24 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/WWW/Server] UID:40230 Activity:nil
10/22   I want to set up a Wiki site for users of a software framework, but
        I'm concerned about security. Are there any Wiki engines that are
        particularly good about security? Any good sites discussing this?
        Thanks. - ciyer
        \_ Not twiki.
           \_ google for natswiki.  It's a mod of twiki.
2005/10/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40231 Activity:nil
10/23   http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/international/asia/23rumsfeld.html
        Rumsfeld visited Mongolia.  I wonder if he flew through Russian or
        Chinese airspace.
2005/10/22-24 [Uncategorized] UID:40232 Activity:nil
10/22   "We will be greeted as liberators."
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051022/ts_nm/iraq_britain_dc
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:22 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>