Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:15 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
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2005/10/15 [Uncategorized] UID:40102 Activity:nil
*/*     TREVOR!
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40103 Activity:kinda low
10/15   Whatever happens with the motd debate, someone made a point below
        that I hope doesn't get lost:
        " If you get nothing else out of your time at Berkeley, get this:
        networking is more important than your gpa, major, or anything else. "
        I just wanted to put this up as a really valuable piece of advice, and
        I hope undergrads take it to heart.  If you're going into "the real
        world", this is very true most of the time.  -John
        \_ Thanks.  --Wrote that anon but since it was anon it must be a troll
                      and should be dismissed out of hand.   ;-)
        \_ Out of the four jobs I've had in the last 8 years, all of them were
           at least partly attributable to networking.   -mice
        \_ This is true.  I got my excellent first job thanks to networking,
           and I got 2 sodans jobs because I knew them. -eric
           \_ yeah.  I've gotten every job I've had because of networking,
              and most of my freelancing work comes from soda or ex-coworker
              contacts.  I wish I'd known this when I was in college, I
              would have done things a lot differently, i.e. going to
              professor office hours starting my freshman year, going to
              more student events, etc.
2005/10/15-16 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:40104 Activity:nil
10/15   Here is a proposal, a compromise for both parties. Split
        /etc/motd.public into two files-- one is /etc/motd.civil
        which is logged and viewable by root only, and is viewed in
        default .login. The other one is /etc/motd.wild, which is
        unlogged and is pretty much like our current motd.
        \_ The problem with this "solution" is that it does not fix
           the problem of threats, slander, etc, from the point of
           view of the politburo. They are still responsible for
           hosting it. -ausman
        \_ Your welcome to create ~user/cesspool.motd if you really want a
           place where you can be threatened at will by anyone.  Root will
           not breach the anonimity of the logs unless there is a specific
           post which requires it. -mrauser
           \_ I have a better idea.  We'll have one file called /etc/motd.public
              which is an open forum for discussing politics, fundamental
              computer science, the computer industry, general science, sex,
              and the meanining of life in a lively, free form, while also
              posting timely links about current events and giving recent grads
              a leg up on their careers.  Then we'll have another file called
              /etc/motd.jamf, where a small group of people can have a
              carefully logged and moderated discussion of vi/EMACS, the
              latest linux kernel and monty python.  Anyone  who mentions
              politics, sex, violence, industry, uses a swear word, or says
              anything remotely useful or interesting on /etc/motd.jamf
              will recieve a demerit.  Three demerits will banish them forever
              from /etc/motd.jamf.
2005/10/15-16 [Uncategorized] UID:40105 Activity:kinda low
10/15   feeling nostalgic.  who remembers Wall Berlin?  -jon (+24 hours)
        \_ I remember the Berlin Wall.
        \_ aww.  I miss Wall Berlin.
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40106 Activity:moderate
10/15   psb:  At least two out of five Politburo members are ... well,
        just being undergrads.  They're trying, but surely you didn't expect
        anything more?
        http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA
        \- 1. it may be unfair to tar the entire pburo
              with the mckee brush. i wonder which pburo
              member voted against the madness?
           2. i am not sure they are "trying".
                see e.g. "I honestly couldn't possibly care less about
                people complaining of losing  anonymity ..." -amckee
                [home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy]
                [http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy]
                in case you believe i am "quoting out of context"
              it was unfortune the rationale for deanonymizing
              the motd was not more clearly stated and various
              issues got entangled [such as the liability issue
              and the unwelcoming environment/participation issue]
              but the the csua president can justly be taken to
              task for framing it in these adventitious terms
              and attacking the out-to-lunch, spoiled, overly-
              indulged, narrow-minded, self-interested alumni.
           3. so i dont expect overly deep thinking about
              say free speech in the abstract, but crazy stuff
              like "psb is a notorious spammer and hoser for
              mailing the csua mailing list about a political
              matter" seems just nuts. deeper into some of the
              threads on the web directory above, you cant
              help speculate what it would be like to have
              ms. mckee as a colleague. i wonder if ms mckee is
              a famous turntablist/bboy?
              \- And I can't even imagine what it must be like to work
                 with someone so obviously disconnected from reality
                 and rational thinking. Yes, making the MOTD trackable
                 is MADNESS. Crazy! OoOOooH! Halloween! Bats! Scary shit!
                 Are you even capable of perspective? I'm afraid you're
                 the one that sounds 'out to lunch'. But please, feel
                 free to libel me. I'd love nothing more than than have
                 an excuse to remove you on sufficient 'legal' grounds
                 to make even you happy. =) Have a nice day, I'm done
                 with talking to you ms. banerjee. I'm sure your friends
                 over at slashdot could use some of your attention.
                         \- you know, i probably read slashdot less
                            than 95% of the people reading this.
                            isnt ./ sort of focused on AssOS?
                 \- Well, I began to wonder about this when you wrote:
                     "[mrauser]s more level headed and egalitarian than
                     I am. My opinion is much more admittedly
                     draconian. I'm used to being a corporate manager
                     and overseeing teams of 30+ engineers scattered
                     across the world.  That doesn't exactly work with
                     the consensus view of management, so I go for
                     autocratic. (It's okay, you can say it, I'm used
                     to being the resident asshole on the team - but at
                     least shit gets done.)"
                 [again, context is at:
                 home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy]
                 http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy]
                    BTW, I appreciate your letting me quote this thread.
                    It makes things much easier.
2005/10/15 [Politics/Foreign, Recreation/Humor] UID:40107 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
10/14   Another Jib Jab on foreign imports and outsourcing:
        http://www.jibjab.com/Movies/MoviePlayer.aspx?contentid=122
        \_ keywords: Walmart BoxMart Box Mart
2005/10/15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40108 Activity:nil
10/14   Many thanks to jrleek for being the catalyst for creating a
        brand new era of CSUA.
        \_ 2nd that. jrleek is a good man.
        \_ Now lets go invade a University that had nothing to do with the
           motd.
           \- this is a politburo decision. do you blame PAT or BUSHCO
              for the state of the country? [choosing the appropriate PAT
              is left as a limited degree of freedom]. --psb
2005/10/15 [Uncategorized] UID:40109 Activity:nil
10/14   Another video of cool art.  (cg this time)
        http://www.1st-ave-machine.com/video/anime_final.htm
2005/10/15 [Uncategorized] UID:40110 Activity:nil
10/14   Anyone here a member of LA fitness?  I'm trying to decide
        whether to join or not.  I'm up in the Seattle area and they're
        opening up a new one with a pool.
2005/10/15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40111 Activity:nil
10/14   Michael Rauser <mrauser@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote on csua@csua
        : I apologise for the recent spam to csua@csua.  It is intended as a news
        : mailing list (minutes, official announcements, etc.) and not as a
        : discussion forum.  I have altered the list to make it moderated, requiring
        : posts to be approved before going out to the full list.
        \_ This is a marked and until now unannounced change in the nature
           of csua@csua.  When was advance notice given of this change of
           csua@csua to a moderated list? --Jon
           \_ The ua part of the 'csua' title means that the undergrads
              don't need to get permission from alum for everything.
              --darin
              \_ "It's [the CSUA] not a democracy. We're democratically
                 elected, but once in office we have near complete
                 authority to implement the policies that we see
                 fit. Think communist russia ..." -amckee, CSUA President
                 \_ and if it's not obvious, the above was not posted
                    by me and was taken out of context. thx psb.  -amckee
                    \_ Could you explain how the quote was taken out of
                       context?
                 \_ This is the organization that was left to us by our
                    faithful alumni. We do not have a congress, a judiciary
                    system, or any vestiges of democracy within the typical
                    power structure. Quite honestly, I'm not aware of any
                    student group here that's run differently.  At some
                    point in the past, the CSUA was your organization to
                    run and shape as you saw fit. I'm sure you each had
                    issues that you felt were important to deal with,
                    things that needed to be chanrged relative to
                    tradition, and so forth. I'm sure each of you also
                    would have resented it had a group of people who have
                    no awareness of the current organization's culture and
                    needs kept expecting deferrence to their ideas and
                    beliefs about how the organization should be run. The
                    students, at some point, trusted you to run the
                    organization to the best of your abilities. Right now,
                    the students trust us to do that. We may fuck up, we
                    may piss people off, but these are our mistakes to make
                    - just like they were yours, at one point. We care
                    about the alumni community and feel that they
                    contribute a lot that is valuable to the CSUA, but our
                    charter is clearly the service of current
                    undergraduates. We would love to make alumni happy, but
                    as i'm sure each of you can see from these threads,
                    that's obviously impossible. In the end, we will always
                    chose the path that we think is in the best interest of
                    current students. I'm sure you each would have expected
                    the same, when you were students. As it is, this server
                    is barely utilized by current students. This issue has
                    comprised probably 50+ manhours of politburo time -
                    time that has directly detracted from what we could
                    have been doing to help out current students. We
                    continue to spend thousands of dollars on this
                    hardware, when the main reason it needs upgrading is to
                    cater to the ever growing alumni ranks. The donations,
                    sadly, are a far way from making this environment
                    self-supporting. Quite simply, this whole server
                    infrastructure costs this organization more in terms of
                    time and money than current students reap from it.
                    Again, we do care to keep a close alumni community, but
                    a bit more appreciation of the efforts we go to would
                    also be nice. And a bit of understanding that, this
                    really is -our- organization right now, to make better
                    or to fuck up, as it once was yours. We welcome your
                    insight, but we really resent the sense of entitlement
                    that many of you think we owe you. That alumni have
                    accounts here is at the generosity of the CSUA, and
                    directly against UC Berkeley policies.  There is no
                    current desire to change this generosity, but a bit of
                    perspective on your part would be nice. We don't owe
                    you explanations of changes we make to our boxes, we
                    don't need need to justify every decision we make. When
                    we do, it's because we value your insight and wisdom,
                    but don't expect it to be binding. I know many of you
                    disagree strongly with our choices, but the students
                    have entrusted us to shepherd this organization and you
                    just have to trust that we have the best interests of
                    the CSUA at heart, even if you disagree with our
                    actions. -amckee
                    \_ Ok uhm yeah.  So anyway, if the ever growing ranks of
                       alums are a burden, how about just booting them all?
                       If the number of current students is low, how much
                       active recruiting does the CSUA do these days?  Do
                       they still do donut runs at project times?  Sponsor
                       and advertise tournament events?  Go into freshman
                       classes at the start of each semester and tell the
                       gathered hordes the CSUA exists and why they should
                       join?  And once these people join, well, uhm, to be
                       blunt, what do they get from the CSUA anyway?  I see
                       two things from out here in alum-land: fantastic
                       tech help/tips from top notch industry pros from a wide
                       variety of fields and access to jobs they'd otherwise
                       never hear about, much less skip HR and go straight to
                       a hiring manager.  Passion is good.  Directed passion
                       is better.  I assume everyone gave some pretty speach
                       prior to being elected to politburo full of promises.
                       Did any of that stuff happen?  Mission accomplished?
                       Honestly, I don't actually really care all that much
                       about any of this stuff but let's get some perspective.
                       \_ Yes, we do donut runs (as do other groups now),
                          yes we go into classes at the start of the term,
                          yes we do helpsessions and shill our name, and
                          yes the ranks are still low. The current breed of
                          CS student is unlike what you were used to - many
                          are completely apathetic about student groups,
                          many don't identify as CS nerds, and many haven't
                          even watched Monty Python.  It's a mainstream
                          field now and the people here have a lot less in
                          common than the CS nerds did when I was younger
                          (I'm 30 and started with this whole internet/cs
                          stuff over 20 years ago) I do not doubt at all
                                \_ Are you related to
                                   Trevor J. Buckingham?
                          that students -could- leverage a lot from alumni,
                          but right now they don't. They don't read motd,
                          they don't really use Soda, and mostly they just
                          come to our free food events. It's a problem that
                          many politburos recently have had to face. We
                          welcome suggestions, of course, but things are
                          definitely different than they used to be. People
                          join now to hang out on our couches, use our
                          office/lab machines, and make friends. I'm trying
                          to bring in more speakers (hopefully some alumni)
                          to try and give various talks. Hell, maybe a
                          panel of people that graduated 10 years ago could
                          come back and talk about life after
                          Berkeley. Right now, though, none of this whole
                          mess that we call Soda or MOTD is much of a
                          benefit to current students. And, quite frankly,
                          that's unlikely to change. It's just no longer
                          the sort of service that is necessary. The entire
                          login service could go away, and most people here
                          would never even notice. No, there are no plans
                          to do so, but when the politburo looks at things
                          to put its attention and money into, the minimal
                          value this -currently- offers students is a
                          factor. And jobs typically come into jobs@
                          now. Our current focus is much more on
                          face-to-face services, since that's the only
                          thing that seems of value to people now,
                          anyways. -amckee
                          \_ Whoa!  I've seen what's coming into jobs@.  That
                             is not at all the same as real jobs.  An
                             announcement from some consultancy that they're
                             recruiting is *nothing* like having an alum
                             hand your resume to someone and say "hire this
                             person".  If you get nothing else out of your
                             time at Berkeley, get this: networking is more
                             important than your gpa, major, or anything else.
                             And yes, it's true I haven't set foot in years
                             and I'm out of touch, but if politburo is so
                             in touch and active then why can't they get
                             other students interested?  This has nothing to
                             do with Monty Python.  I'm not even sure why
                             you mention that.  shrug.
                \_ How much more donation do you need?  There is no
                   information as to how much is needed, how much has
                   been donated, what the money was spent on, etc.
                   No detailed accounting is being asked for here, just
                   a rough breakdown.  Otherwise, how would we know
                   how much to donate.   - soda donor
                   \_ I know I'm going to get flamed by mrauser for saying
                      this, but the largest issues facing the CSUA right
                      now are not cash related. What we need more than
                      money is a way to get students more involved with
                      their school and major, to introduce them to better
                      coding practices and non-academic technologies, to
                      provide tutoring and help to a breed of students that
                      may never have seen a command line - on UNIX or
                      Windows. Basically, we need to help build a community
                      of current students that is as vibrant as what those
                      who used to be here knew. (I still think we can do it
                      while acting professional and mature, but enough of
                      that.) I don't have the specific budget in front of
                      me for last year, but we requested something like
                      $4000 last year in hardware expenses (but received
                      less) and around $1000 this year (which we
                      received). Although the money is important and does
                      make it easier to buy random upgrades or components,
                      the bigger need is just 'more time'. New Soda has
                      been largely held up due to lack of this precious
                      resource, not cash. And, since so few current
                      students use this resource, it's hard to justify
                      spending too much time on it (for those of us in
                      pburo), when we could use this time to try and
                      coordinate speakers, corporate info-sessions,
                      help-sessions, etc. The better donation, in all
                      honest, is the wisdom, time, and insight that each of
                      you have - whether it's to help the root staff debug
                      an issue, come talk to the students about a topic
                      either technical or pragmatic, or basically help
                      foster a sense of community outside of the insular
                      confines of Soda and the MOTD. There hasn't been a
                      lot that we haven't been able to do, due to lack of
                      cash, but there has been a lot that we haven't been
                      able to do, due to lack of time. Hence the
                      proposition to -slightly- expand the size of the
                      politburo.  But, to keep mrauser from killing me, we
                      love cash too. (cough) - amckee
                      \_ I had a longer post, but I suspect it was wasted
                         breath, so I rescued some precious motd bits.  -mice
                      \- ms amckee suggests i did not provide sufficient
                         context. pls see
                         http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA
                         for fuller context. "by my words you will know me".
                         it is odd to see the motd discussion turn into an
                         alumni issue.
2005/10/15-16 [Uncategorized] UID:40112 Activity:nil
10/15   My CD collection has become a bit unwieldly.  Can anyone point me to
        somewhere where I can buy labeled dividers "A" "B" .. "C" "Classical"
        "Soundtracks" or ones where I can label them myself if given some of
        these dividers.  I tried googling but I'm not sure what to look for
        exactly. -eric
        \- do you have any of the casals perpigan or prades recordings?
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40113 Activity:low
10/16   So when do we start the underground rebel motd?
        \_ http://csua.org/motd ?
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40114 Activity:high
10/16   Dear fellow working alumni. I have begun circulating a negative
        networking blacklist in my company. I am making sure amckee does
        not get hired. I work at Intel Corporation and I've passed the
        list to my friends some who work at Yahoo and Google. They've also
        begun circulating it to the HR depts in other companies as well,
        including the less well know companies. Please circulate the list
        throughout Silicon Valley and tell me which companies you've passed
        the list to. thx.        -alum of 1990, Intel Verification, SC
         \_ I left Intel in 99 as an Eng7, at the age of 24, ranked
            Critical Intel Asset. I'm sure your opinion, however, is
            Critical Intel Asshat. I'm sure your opinion, however, is
            equally valid. -amckee
            \_ Hey!  tjb's back! -geordan
        \_ wow, intel verification AND head of HR. impressive. (not amckee)
        \_ This is the reason that brett was temporarily sorried. We will
           be discussing the issue on Monday. The decision will be at the
           discretion of the full politburo, not just me. As much as you
           may disagree with my opinions, this grossly oversteps what is
           an acceptable response to having such a difference of opinion.
           I'm less concerned with the affect that this has on me, my
           resume speaks for itself, but most politburo are just undergrads,
           CS students who just signed up to have fun and learn a bit about
           running a group. They should never feel that, should they try
           to implement a controversial decision, that they could be
           subjected to such a grossly intimidating and caustic repurcussion.
           This may be acceptable in 'real politics', but we're just students,
           and this is just a student organization. The palor of fear that
           this will cast over politburo will prevent it from enacting
           decisions that may be necessary for its survival, however
           controversial. Should students know that this might happen,
           the even worse affect is that it might prevent them from even
           joining the ranks of politburo. This action very realistically
           threatens the success of the organization and the stability
           of the politburo. We are not a full political body, we are
           not your senators, your representatives, or your president. We
           should never have to deal with this level of intimidation. Call
           it censorship, call it draconian, call it what you will - but
           we live in an insular world and these are not things that most
           students should have to face. -amckee
           \_ Anyone making a serious squish decision based on an external
              web site, esp. one that is known to be sucky, is an idiot.
           \_ it looks like you've been successfully trolled.
        \_ Those with an opinion on this matter, or any matter, are always
           welcome to attend politburo meetings. We give more weight to
           the concerns of current students, admittedly, but we will take
           your insight into consideration. Many of you have faced problems
           similar to the ones we've faced, and constructive feedback and
           wisdom is always welcome. For those that have a personal problem
           with me, the appropriate way to deal with that is by talking to
           me. I suspect our differences are not nearly as great as
           the emotion of this motd indicates. Sorry for being long again,
           John. -amckee
           \_ I don't think John's point is about length but more to do with
              succintness.                            -mice
        \_ Upon speaking with Brett, this is not attributable to him. kchang's
           logs were wrong, probably not an uncommon occurance. Part of why
           I had not brought this to the MOTD was that I wanted to hear
           from Brett. However, someone else felt it important to mention here.
           I have unsorried him and am sorry for any inconvenience.  However,
           as a point of clarification for whomever did post this, the damage
           you felt that I may have done to the CSUA is far diminished by the
           extent of your actions. I'll only be in office for another couple
           months, and other officers may have different opinions. However,
           the real 'cultural shift' in the CSUA is now almost certainly
           attributable to you. If your goal was to supress dissent, to coerce
           agreement, and to bully your view into an organization that you
           are no longer a part of - you have likely succeeded. Politburo
           may no longer feel comfortable enacting certain decisions. At a
           minimum, we now know better than to try and explain ourselves
           and our views, as it just opens us up to personal attacks and
           retribution. This will be the last post I make to the MOTD, it's
                        \_ Can I have your stuff? -geordan
           just not worth it to me to fight with you. I fully welcome
           the insight and opinions people have about how we're running this
           organization, but it will be more effective if you can come to
           a meeting or email us. This has turned into a gossip-fueled hate
           fest, and right now I feel pretty ashamed to have anything to do
           with this organization. The optimism I had in trying to find ways
           to make student's lives here a bit better is rapidly fading, and
           if all that's going to happen is that they're going to grow up
           into people anything at all like the minority of you who have
           made this such an evil place, then I just don't see the purpose.
           Good luck with your MOTD. -amckee
        \_ Haven't you threatened to sorry people because of their
           emails to politburo?  That sucks.
        \_ For the record, I did not write the above posting. -brett
           \_ He did (or "didn't do" as it turns out) something so horrible it
              was necessary to sorry him before getting his side of the story?
              \_ Man, amckee is serious about this sorry business.  He
                 threatened to sorry me when he thought I quoted his infamous
                 self-portrayal as "resident foobar".   BTW, it's not likely
                 I'll be in a position to hire amckee (I don't hire sw guys
                 in general, though I might for dv I suppose), but I would
                 certainly advise against hiring if his name crossed my desk.
                 From my personal dealings with him (just one logged write
                 conversation, to be fair), he seems to have problems
                 controling his temper and he's probably a pain to work
                 with.  -  tse
        \_ Wow, this is really lame.  Whomever did post it needs to get a
           brain.  I mean, are you trying to force motd logging?  --PM
           \_ PM: I think the actual lesson here is different.  I bet many
              people are silently thinking "I would not want to hire this
              guy based on his writings" without putting those thoughts into
              the MOTD.  And this the the guy who wants us to "trust him"
              over the judicious use of the anonymity logs?
              \_ Well, amckee is trying to portray this as alums threatening
                 the politburo, but I think it's just amckee.  There's enough
                 from MOTD and from his emails to hang him.
                 \_ What triggered amckee's temper tantrum? Just Partha's
                    ramblings?
           \_ I'd bet dollars to donuts that's *exactly* what OP is trying to
              do.
2005/10/15-16 [Recreation/Humor] UID:40115 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
10/16   10 steps to becoming Republican:
        http://www.thefrown.com/player.php?/frowners/becomerepublican
2005/10/15-16 [Science] UID:40116 Activity:low
10/15   Can anyone recommend an author for a reader who likes Michael
        Crichton and Dan Brown (i.e. page turners that are based in
        science/technology). I don't care what you think of either of
        these two authors in terms of quality; rather I'm just looking
        for a similar author. thanks.
        \_ How about Neil Stephenson?
        \_ Well, for me, "page turner based on science/technology" is
           synonymous with Neal Stephenson, but not everyone finds his
           stuff to be page turners.  You have been warned.
        \_ Iain M. Banks (his scifi stuff.)  I haven't read anything by Dan
           Brown, but I got annoyed by Michael Crichton stuff for being
           repetitive a while ago.  Also you might enjoy the Hyperion series
           by Dan Simmons.  -John
        \_ Nothing by Dan Brown is based on anything.
        \- at all costs, do not read "Rule of Four" ... people who bought that
           book should be able to file a class action shuit for their time
           and money. it's so horrible you have to wonder if the authors
           are well connected or there is some other unnatural explanation
           of why that book was published and so heavily promoted after
           da vinci code. note: it's not a "techno thriller". --psb
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:40117 Activity:nil
10/15   Isn't it weird that jblack has been really quiet in the past few days?
        Boy, I can't wait till they implement user-tracking. It'll be
        a conservative jblack troll paradise! Go conservative motd!
        \_ What you say makes very little sense for several reasons.
2017/11/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/19   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:15 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>