Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:13 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40057 Activity:low
10/12 (
        FEMA paying avg $59/night to put 600,000 post-Katrina/Rita victims
        in hotels, because conservative ideology kept FEMA from giving vouchers
        to families for much cheaper apartments, like in pre-Dubya days.
        \_ why do you hate black people?
        \_ Do you think FEMA pays for room service and the mini bar too?  How
           about pay per view porn?
           \_ In the name of social justice and equal access, they
              certainly should!
2005/10/13 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:40058 Activity:moderate
        Conservative columnist George Will:
        "Conservatives are not supposed to be cuddly, or even particularly
        nice. They are, however, supposed to be competent. And to know that
        scarcity--of money, virtue, wisdom, competence, everything--forces
        choices. Furthermore, they are supposed to have an unsentimental
        commitment to meritocracy and excellence. The fact that none of those
        responsible for the postwar planning, or lack thereof, in Iraq have
        been sacked suggests--no, shouts--that in Washington today there is no
        serious penalty for serious failure. Hence the multiplication of
        \_ No, the conservatives have only one main function, and that is
           to keep the liberals out of power.
           \_ No, you're confusion conservatives and liberals with R's and D's.
        \_ "Duh" -- good link
        \_ Those aren't really Conservative values, but more military
           values. Conservatives are supposed to say "praise Jesus" all
           day and strive for theocracy.
2005/10/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40059 Activity:nil
        Review on CIA performance "acknowledged the deep failures in the
        agency's prewar assessments of Iraq's weapons programs but said 'the
        analysis was right' on cultural and political issues related to postwar
        Iraq. ... 'strong regional and country expertise developed over time'
        within American intelligence agencies, as opposed to ... heavy reliance
        on 'technical analysis' for what proved to be misleading or inaccurate
        information about Iraq's weapons programs."
2005/10/13 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40060 Activity:nil
10/12   root, please do not squish me for posting this treasonous
        url anonymously.  also the picture is wrong, p bush
        was funding them until 1951. - danh
        \_ It's been nice knowing you danh, I shall miss you after your
           mysterious disappearance.
        \_ Huh, I didn't realize we were into punishing the sons for the
           sins of the fathers.
2005/10/13-14 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:40061 Activity:very high
10/12   [moved to top]
        I strongly suggest everyone read the minutes from the last
        meeting.  Both changes to the motd and soda itself were
        discussed. -jrleek
        \_ (Put up front since it's relevant) One thing that was left out of
           the minutes is this: although we decided to enable logging of the
           MOTD, we would like the implementation to be put in place by the
           users OF the MOTD. The decision stands and is not debatable, but
           the flavor of it is up to you guys. The current proposition is
           to enable kernel auditing, such that only root can view the logs.
           If you have a more palatable idea, you're welcome to submit your
           opinions to root@csua. Of course, 'ideas' are not nearly as
           useful as 'implementations', if you propose something non-trivial.
           \_ I don't have any complaint on any of this. I just like to
              ask if you guys can consider making the list of people who
              have root public, and tighten access control to only those
              who should have root. Secondly, I'd like to ask if you guys
              can make all user complaints and requests to expose offenders
              public. I'd hate to see root exercising power under the hood
              without any form of auditing. Without public auditing
              there is no check and no balance.
           \_ Why perpetuate the scam and make us lend the logging an air of
           \_ I am amused by the fact that this was posted anonymously. -gm
        \_ Exact proposition: "To allow, when necessary, root-types to
           identify exactly who posted any message in the MOTD"
        \_ If I read these correctly, the change that will be implemented is
           a foolproof way for root-types to know who is posting to the motd,
           so that people who make direct threats can be found.  Somehow I
           doubt this is gonna raise the quality of the discourse around
           \_ The problem is we've apparently seen root-type people abuse their
              root in the past to un-anon people on the motd they simply don't
              like.  I'd like to know who the root-type people are and that
              there is some official (as official as the csua can get) process
              in place to a) make sure no one else has root and b) make sure
              the very limited set of people with root are known and c) revoke
              root privs of abusers.  I was once in favor of a totally anon
              motd, but given some of the vicious and excessive personal
              attacks, threats, and named posts clearly intended to destroy
              other people, I've changed my mind on the topic.  Free speech
              is a good thing but yelling fire in a theatre is not ok nor is
              abusing anonymity to harass or ruin others.
              \_ The root list has been getting cleaned up, and I have made
                 sure that the only people with root on any of the new
                 machines are active, trustworthy root types.  Furthermore,
                 abuse of root power by anyone to un-anonymify someone for
                 any reason other than official business is an immediately
                 squishable offense in my book.  If I caught someone using
                 root logs to spite someone on the motd, I would not hesitate
                 to not only revoke the root cookie, but also sorry that
                 person's account.  I would even take such action on a
                 current member of Politburo if they did such.  I consider
                 the privacy of the people on this server, and the
                 professionalness of those who have access to priviledged
                 information on this server very important. - jvarga
              \_ You are a thin-skinned idiot.
                 \_ Haven't been around here that long, huh?
                    \_ Only about 8 years.  What'd I miss?
                       \_ Pfft. n00b!  -meyers
                       \_ You missed the part where not abusing root is a good
                          thing, and an obvious thing.  Where have you been?
              \_ Vicious and excessive personal attacks? Perhaps, but the
                 motd is not for the faint of heart. This is less "fire" in a
                 theater and more theater of the absurd. More Sproul Plaza than
                 debate club. Keep it anon. How else am I supposed to make my
                 snide "yermom" comments without looking like a total sleeze?
                 \_ yer mom doesn't mind looking like a total sleaze.
              \_ You're correct that too many people have root. We'll get
                 an automatic reset when we switch to new soda, we should
                 set up some new rules then.
        \_ So let's say some user provides a web- or e-mail based front-end to
           let anonymous types modify motd.  The soda log will show that the
           creator of the interface is making changes, even though it could be
           Joe Loser off the Internet.  I suppose at the first abuse then that
           interface should be shut off?
           \_ Before the first abuse; it's against policy to share your
              account.  -tom
              \_ Has this specific example been tested yet?  ("share your
                 account" encompasses providing a web/e-mail interface for
                 people outside soda to anonymously modify motd)
                 \_ "share your account" means whatever they want it to mean.
                    \_ This would also qualify under "don't be a hoser."  -tom
        \_ Just curious, but how many of you outraged motders are actual
           csua voters?
        \_ I'm disappointed that the CSUA would run Linux, I'm not sure what
           the issue was with BSD.  There was a big push to get it working
           at the end of last year, and as far as I know it was.  What
           happened?  --jwm
           \_ How competent is the vp?  This is not intended to be a put
              down as such, but failing to get bsd to boot may be
           \_ How competent is the vp?  Failing to get bsd to boot may be
              meaningful or meaningless, depending on vp cluefulness.
              \_ As freebsd developers have trouble getting 5.4 to run on
                 certain amd boxes, I wouldn't use this as a guide to VP
                 \_ You do know that my question regarding vp cluefulness
                    still applies until you show (boot_bsd(clueless admin)
                    == 1) for all values of clueless admin.
           \_ What's wrong with Linux these days?  (Aside from TRADITION!)
              \_ If you have to ask, you don't know.
                 \_ Yes, that would be why I'm asking.
                    \_ Install the 2.6 kernel and see how long it lasts
                       under load.
                       \- can you elaborate on this a little. i have some
                          crunching farms and the people who run them for
                          me appear to slowly be moving toward 2.6. tnx.
2005/10/13 [Politics/Domestic, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:40062 Activity:nil
10/13   Are there more details on the proposed changes to the CSUA constitution?
        Meeting minutes so far have not included much information on this
2005/10/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40063 Activity:very high
10/13   Now that we're making a user-tracking, totalitarian motd in the
        future, I want to use all the remaining freedom to insult people.
        Whoever proposed this idea, fuck you. Paolo is an ass and
        all heil German John. Viva la libertarian-style motd!!!
        \_ What is wrong with root having a way to track who posted what when
           someone complains about inappropriate behavior on the motd?  Why is
           everyone complaining?  The fact that Politburo has had to make the
           decision to put a system in place to keep a log is not a symptom of
           a "totalitarian regime," but rather a forum where people's blatant
           disrespect for each other caused a problem that had to be addressed.
           You will still have your anonymity so you can troll away at each
           other, but root will finally have the ability to look at a private
           log IF AND WHEN the need arises to take care of issues that get out
           of hand.  No one will be monitoring the log, lording over you with
           the wiggling finger.  Life will continue on as normal.  But finally,
           those anonymous cowards who use unconventional motd posting means to
           threaten others will have to check themselves knowing that if they
           make a real threat and someone complains, that there will be
           judgment on their not-so-anonymous self.  The only people
           complaining about root having logs are those who are the people
           doing the threatening and are worried that they cannot continue to
           do so anonymously.  Get a life, grow up, and be civil to each other
           (insult each other all you want, we don't care.  Just don't cross
           the line and make real threats.).  Sheesh. - jvarga
           \_ The problem as I see it isn't so much the tracking mechanism,
              but the vagueness of the standard for breaking anonymity in a
              forum where some pretty hot-topic issues are often addressed.
              I'm rather uncomfortable knowing that we are giving power to
              tantrumy admins without any real limitations or clear standards
              of application.  Honestly, don't our stewards have more important
              things to do than chase after lackwit trolls?     -mice
        \_ If all they're really doing is logging this shit somewhere, I don't
           think it will matter.  What the cowards who like censorship fail
           to understand is how many of the trolls have the personality that
           tends to tell people to go fuck themselves straight to their face.
           Overall, I don't think the level of debate is really that much
           lower here than at the national level anyway.  Don't forget we
           recently had the Vice President of the United States tell a
           senator to go fuck himself, on record, in the senate.
           \_ It isn't about trolls.  Trolling is one of the 'fun' things about
              anonymity.  If you're going to get ballistic when someone posts a
              random link you deserve what you get.  I see the problem being
              with people who instead of saying "fuck you" (which is just
              stupid), make threats to life, limb, reputation, etc.  At that
              point there needs to be recourse, otherwise the CSUA is just
              providing a means to attempt to ruin another person with no way
              for the victim to even know who is doing it much less have a
              chance of stopping it.  Trolling is posting random stupid links.
              Going after someone in a personal way is not trolling.  That is
              harassment at a minimum and shouldn't be tolerated.  This comes
              back to the question raised several weeks ago about fresh blood
              on the motd.  Why would any new person want to step into such an
              environment?  And why can't we have an environment better than
              the rest of the net or the Senate floor, or where ever?  Just
              because another place sucks is no reason we have to emulate that.
              \_ I think you summarised the reasoning (if not improved upon
                 it) during the meeting.  We were thinking that it really
                 wasn't a constructive thing for people to be abusing the
                 anonimity to threaten others.  This is absolutely not intended
                 to be a "politburo intends to be the thought police" system.
                 The logs will also be root-only accessible and we're toying
                 with putting in a system such that you need two members of
                 root to access them. -mrauser
              \_ Just out of silly curiosity, has this happened to any serious
                 extent, has anyone been affected physically by this, or is
                 it a case of "won't someone think of the children"?  -John
                 \_ What benefit is it to the CSUA to have the MOTD anonymous?
                    (Unlike pretty much every other form of electronic
                    communication).  Is having wall logs "thinking of the
                    People should be accountable for what they say.  -tom
                 \_ Do you mean, "Has anyone not gotten involved with the
                    motd because it is overly caustic?"  If so, Yes.
                    \- non-anon wont solve the causticity problem
                       \_ Sure, but what was pp asking?
                    \_ No, has anyone been attacked/gotten in a fight/whatever,
                       because of what was said on the motd and complained, or
                       or has the CSUA been told off by a roving gang of UC
                       lawyers, or is this just a case of "well no, but it
                       _could_ happen"?  Is there a binding definition of
                       "harassment" from any authority that governs the CSUA?
                       I'm just curious... -John
                       \_ People no longer post here.  Isn't that enough?  How
                          many more have to be chased off?  Just because they
                          didn't file some sort of 'official' complaint with
                          politburo, it is ok they left after enough abuse?
                          Why does someone have to be beaten with a bat for
                          it to matter?
                          \_ I seem to recall people complaining about and
                             leaving the wall too.
                             There can never be enough chasing. We must
                             chase unto the hundreds, the thousands, the
                             hundreds of thousands. They shall all run before
                             the mighty motd. Kneel before motd.
                             (anyway, isn't it ironic that in the jblack case,
                             the only reason he became a "threat target" is
                             that other people de-anonymized him in the first
                       \_ From the minutes:
                          "Some people want to make [motd] semi-non-anymonous.
                          We don't want to be in trouble with libel, slander,
                          threats, etc. ... the people whoa re being attacked
                          are not complaining about it, it's not really a
                          problem! the message was just a troll ... we are
                          sorta sanctioning this simply by keeping it there
                          and not responding to these kind of threats"
                          I read this to mean Politburo (4 out of 5) got
                          freaked out about the GUN DUEL references, even
                          though it was a troll.  Could be wrong.
                          \_ BUD DAY doesn't like your tone.
                          \_ Not the gun duel, jblack hater guy
                             threatening anonymous harrassment and abuse.
                         I suppose it's good they haven't heard about GUN DUEL
                         yet ...
                         \_ Man, can't two consenting adults even talk about
                            organizing GUN DUEL without everyone getting all
                            freaky about it?  If it was jblack hater being
                            a weenie, and jblack complaining, that's one thing,
                            but I don't seem to recall either of the parties
                            involved in GUN DUEL raising a stink.  -John
                            \_ "the people whoa re being attacked are not
                               complaining about it ... we are sorta
                               sanctioning this simply by keeping it there
                               \_ So the people who are being attacked are
                                  not complaining. Perhaps they get the joke?
                                  It's the freakin' motd. I barely take the
                                  news links seriously.
                                  \_ They complained.  They up and left, duh.
                                     Just because they didn't file an official
                                     complaint and fill out some paper work,
                                     you think it's ok they're not here any
                                     more?  The motd is enriched by them
                                     leaving?  Sheesh.
                                  \_ And that benefits the  -tom
                                     \_ Allows those who have a minority,
                                        maginalized, or unpopular opinion to
                                        speak out. Allows people to judge the
                                        opinion separately from judging the
                                        person. And allows yermom to accept
                                        all the action she can take without
                                        you feeling bad about it.
                                        \_ We can have an anonymous motd
                                           without the assault and abuse.
                                           I'm totally in favor of what you're
                                           saying right here, but I'm totally
                                           opposed to allowing people to abuse
                                           their anonymous privs to attack
                                           other people.  Post your troll
                                           links, post your minority opinion,
                                           but don't expect to get away with
                                           direct personal threats and
                                           assault be it virtual or physical.
        \_ I don't care about user tracking as long as our stupid
           libertarian stops trolling and nuking the motd.
           \- anonymity enables discussion of certain topics that may not
              be discussed non-anonymously. non-anonymity, as the wall
              very nicely proves, will not make things warm and fuzzy. --psb
        \_ The Delaware S. Ct. just ruled on the issue of anon speech
           on the internet. If anyone is interested the opinion is at:
           Of interest may be the cts assertion that the constitutional
           rights of Internet users to speak anonymously must be
           "carefully safeguarded."
           \- this is about whether the sloda motd should be anonymous
              or not. you can support the possibility of anon speech without
              being obligated to provide a particular channel. although it
              is certainly true there are blurry areas ... like can a town
              deny a speech permit to somebody because it will cost thousands
              of dollars in police overtime [stipulating that this isnt a
              sham excuse]. does it matter whether it is an anti-BUSHCO
              parade or a neo-nazi parade [see skokie case] or say a parade
              to laude the virtues of IKEA or INNNOUT BURGER. i think one of
              the more interesting free speech cases is PRUNEYARD v. ROBBINS.
              i am not suggesting you are sugesting a legal obligation here,
              but i think it is clear "the csua" can do what it wants with
              the motd, just as i think it is clear it is clownheaded to
              put these restrictions on the motd. now if somebody else wanted
              to created /foo/bar/non-clownlike-motd-for-non-softheaded-adults
              which was anonymous and "the CSUA" smacked that down without
              a pretty compelling interest ... that would seem to be to be
              pretty suspect.
              \_ Is the politburo committed to monitoring just motd or any
                 world writable file which may be used for motd-like purposes?
                 \- i think they are committed to being clownlike. and to
                    AssOS 2.6, apparently.
                    \_ To be fair, these are a bunch of 20-year olds making
                       political and technical decisions.  How high should
                       our expectations be?
                       \_ They are 20 yr olds at Cal; we should expect
                          a bit more than latest 1337est.
                          \_ I would guess that almost all of us were once
                             20-year old students at Cal.  I was one too.  I
                             think I calibrated my expectations appropriately.
                             And we are not moving to linux because it's the
                             latest l337est; we're linux because the vp
                             couldn't get bsd running.  I calibrated my
                             expectations based on that too (not so much that
                             he couldn't get it up but rather he's unable to
                             determine root cause).
                             \_ The current VP, being completely inept in all
                                ways, shape, and form, did not try to get
                                freebsd running.  He came in, did nothing, got
                                chastized for doing nothing, then suddenly
                                embarked on some sort of religious crusade of
                                "I'm going to try and get people to stop
                                calling me inept so I'm going to try and get
                                new soda working."  I have had new soda, for
                                the most part, working since February.  I've
                                had logins up, home directories mounted, and
                                about 90% of the other stuff working.  Brett
                                and seidl were great and got apache and list
                                stuff working, and there was/is only a small
                                list of stuff left to do.  However, despite
                                my monthly "this is is an explicit list of
                                all there is left to do that I don't know how
                                to do," Politburo, and the VP especially,
                                claim that I don't tell anyone anything.
                                C'mon!  I explicitly said "anyone that can
                                help, please email me and I'll enable your
                                login."  Instead I get amckee telling
                                everyone that nothing works because he cannot
                                log in (I never enabled his login because he
                                threw a temper tantrum and refused to help).
                                Anyway, to get back to the point, we tried
                                loading up new soda with Freebsd 6 this last
                                weekend to see if the new kernel fixes the
                                issues we had installing 5.3, but
                                unfortunately it did not.  Mbh decided to load
                                Gentoo onto the system just to play around and
                                when it booted decided that he was going to
                                push to make Gentoo the new OS for soda since
                                the current system was "unusable" to him.  So,
                                despite the page-long list of reasons that I
                                provided as to why changing soda to Gentoo
                                would be a Very Bad Thing(tm), he still wants
                                to go forward with it because he thinks it is
                                cool to compile the OS from scratch.  The
                                \_ So it is latest 1337est! Anyway
                                   if he really wants to do this,
                                   why doesn't he try OpenSolaris?
                                   At least it is meant for adults.
                                \_ You can compile freebsd from scratch too.
                                guy wants to change soda's OS and claims that
                                he is willing to deal with all the fun that
                                comes from that, when he had to ask a few
                                days ago how to find out when someone logged
                                on last.  Sorry about the ventness of this
                                post, but I have been getting jerked around
                                by the inept politburo for the past 2 months,
                                dealing with lie after lie about me and am
                                trying to fight for some semblence of
                                rationality, but am getting tired of doing
                                so. - jvarga
                                \_ GO JVARGA GO!  W00T!  -John
                             \_ From the meeting minutes I couldn't
                                really figure out what the problem
                                was other than it won't boot.
                                BTW, any reason Linux was picked
                                instead of say OpenSolaris? A
                                friend of mine works on OpenSolaris,
                                I could probably get him to help w/
                                installing it, &c. over winter break.
                                The zones stuff could be useful on
                                \_ Why?  They don't want your advice, and if
                                   you are there to help, you are expected to
                                   blindly execute their wishes.  Do you
                                   really want to be their house nigger?
                                   \_ um? wow.
                 \_ If you want to create ~wierdo/sleezepit.motd in your
                    homedir, where you can slander, insult, and threaten
                    anyone your welcome to do so according to me.  The
                    CSUA motd should be a place where new students won't
                    instantly be scared off by the sheer immaturity and
                    low level of dialogue which occurs there. -mrauser
            \_ I am not suggesting that the csua will be violating any
               fundamental right by monitoring the motd; the politburo
               can implement whatever policy it desires.  However, I
               think that perhaps they should consider the fact that
               some very smart people feel that anon speech is impt.
               Re the suggestion that the motd scares people off - this
               isn't kindergarten; students admitted to cal ought to
               have sufficient critical thinking skills to identify
               inanity and ignore it (including perhaps this post).
               Some of us were ugs when the motd was far less civilized
               AND showed up by default; if we managed to survive viewing
               it on a daily basis, the current crop of kids can too.
               \- on reflection it is kind of interesting that the CSUA
                  has not passed a policy decision that "we will be nice
                  on the motd" but has directly gone to considering
                  de-anonymizing the motd ... which should make you all
                  particularly nervous ... since it seems like you are
                  essentially relying on the "chilling effect" of being
                  found out to condition behavior. ok say i call somebody
                  a dumbass and now that can be conclusively tracked back
                  to me ... am i in violation of csua policy? what policy
                  am i in violation of? does it matter if the person i am
                  calling a dumbass is not offended enough to "press charges"?
                  what if i dont call him a dumbass but give a detail point
                  by point discussion why he is wrong and this ends up
                  being far more humiliating than a "mere" ad hominem?
                  are only point-to-point insults of other sloda people
                  fair game? what if somebody discusses outsourcing of
                  programmers or back office stuff and suggests (all)
                  indians are incompetent programmers or out to use your
                  private tax info for identify theft type reasons?
                  is that grounds to piece the veil of anonymity and
                  smack somebody down? if youa re not even going to entertain
                  the notion of the smackdown, what is the point of the
                  ability to deanonymize? and if the smack down is on the
                  table, what are the grounds. the solitary grounds i can
                  think possibly for a smackdown is forging a post as
                  the danhimal iff the danimal complains. say you call
                  the poliburo "clowns", how many of the pburo would it
                  take to mount a prosecution? 1? plurality? is it not ok
                  to call them clowns in the motd, but ok on the wall?

<<<<<<< Other Changes Below
        \_ Please don't un-anonymous the motd, my burgeoning troll farm will
           wither. :(  -John
2005/10/13-14 [Computer/Domains] UID:40064 Activity:low
10/13   I have 2 domain names that I don't really care about anymore. If
        I choose to cancel it, GoDaddy says I can no longer get it back
        or register it until they release it back to the public. If I
        select "Do not auto renew" and just don't make payments, will I
        get fined?
        \_ Why don't you first try to ebay them?  Might at least cover your
           last payment if it's even semi-interesting.  -John
        \_ What domain names are they? Maybe we can have a MOTD auction.
2005/10/13-14 [Computer/Rants] UID:40065 Activity:low
10/13   Gates says Computer Science: For Great Justice:
2005/10/13-14 [Uncategorized] UID:40066 Activity:nil
10/13   Al Qaida claims Al Qaida letter is a fake.
        \_ The use of little hearts instead of dots was probably a clue.
2005/10/13-14 [Reference/Celebration] UID:40067 Activity:low
10/13   Boyakasha! Happy Birthday, Ali G! (aka Sacha  Baron Cohen)
        \_ Ayiii!
2005/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/California, Finance/Investment] UID:40068 Activity:high
10/13   Why I don't think the real-estate will ever bubble. Many young
        people seeking for opportunities from inland move to coastal metro
        CA. Most asian immigrants to move to CA. The people from the border
        love to move to CA. Kids are born and raised in CA. People who
        already stay in CA like to stay in CA. The fact of the matter is,
        regardless of the economy the CA population is still rising and
        there is a shortage of land. We talk about bubble as if people will
        all of a sudden will lose their jobs or move to apartments or
        move out of the state. Wouldn't such a movement trigger an apartment
        rental boom, which is unlikely since many are already close to full
        occupancy anyways? Real-estate bubble-- wishful thinking,
        it'll never happen.
        \_ Do you have statistics to show that the Bay Area population is
           growing?  I read an article that claimed the opposite.
        \_ There's an artificial shortage of land, in reality there is
           no shortage of land in CA. If the population does increase to
           a certain size we'll just expand the burbs is all. All you have
           to do is travel down interstates between the two large metropolitan
           areas of LA-OC-SD and the Bay Area and you can see the large
           amount of empty room still available. But real statistics show
           that the Bay Area has been losing population, contrary to
           popular belief, and that the growth has been in SoCal and
        \_ I think it's a matter of perspective. The housing bubble is not
           going to be like the stock market bubble. Houses won't end up
           being worthless. The problem are those people who are betting
           their property will continue to increase in worth by double digits
           and those who will get caught by the increasing high interest.
           The bubble will be stagnant markets, or slightly depressed prices.
           \_ actually considering that most people are financing their homes,
              likening it to stock merket would be likening it to a stock
              market heavy on margin traders.  If someone only puts up 10% down
              on real eastate, it only takes a 10% drop for them to lose it
              all.   Because of the heavy leverage, small changes in the
              market can produce big losses!
              The one saving grace is real eastate is not very liquid.  It
              won't take a week for the market to crash ; it'll take months.
        \_ Sorry, but people from the border can't afford the million $
           homes.  As for CA kids, they will all just live with their
           parents.  For speculators, if home prices don't rise, they will
           be bleeding money, and hence looking to sell.  Inflation is
           rising and the fed is forced to keep raising rates.  Add to
           that outsourcing, trade deficit, budget deficit, high consumer
           debt, and an overall ugly economy, and even though I wish to
           say housing would just calm down and stagnate, I have to be
           honest, and tell you that, more likely, it would pop and fall
           like 20%.     - worried homeowner
           \_ If this real estate bubble is anything like the last one in the
              Bay Area, I wouldn't worry too much. Even if prices start
              falling, it won't do dramatically. Incomes and prices are high
              enough that you can sell if need be.
           \_ Actually, the new immigrants are able to afford quite a lot.
              How? They share. It's common for several families of new Mexican
              immigrants to share a house. In this way, I've seen even day
              laborers buy a $400K house. Yes, this constrains prices
              because at some point income is always a limiting factor. By
              the way, why are you worried about a 20% drop? That's
              nothing. So your $500K house falls to $400K. BFD.
              \_ if you spent $100k down on that $500k house, after the 20%
                 drop,  that $100k of equity is GONE.  If you borrowed it all,
                 you're now $100k in debt; selling the house would leave you
                 still well in the red.
                 \_ Uhm no.  If I put $100k down on a $500k house and the sell
                    price drops 20% I have the option of "not selling" since I
                    live there.  If I was a speculator I'd probably take a hit
                    since a 20% drop is unlikely to recover quickly in which
                    case I'd lose a tiny amount of the millions I'd made over
                    the last 5-10 years.  Too bad I wasn't a speculator. ;-)
                    \_ Not selling is all fine and dandy if everyone took
                       out 30 year fixed mortgages.  Unfortunately, there are
                       too many 1 year, 3 year ARMs, no interest, blah blah
                       mortgages these days.  I am not worried about my own
                       home per se, but a deflating housing bubble pulling
                       the whole economy down.  IIRC, something like half of
                       the jobs created lately are real estate related.
        \_ I think the real estate market in CALIFORNIA will be a good
           investment IN THE LONG RUN precisely because the population
           here is growing quickly. However, this is not true in most
           \_ Yea, in the long run, stock market goes up too, but like my
              old Numerical Analysis TA says, "Why are we learning this
              faster algorithm?  Cause LIFE IS SHORT!"
              \_ Look, do you want to invest or are you trying to win the
                 lottery? If you're not in it for the long-term then just
                 go to Vegas already. Many people have long-term goals and
                 accomplish them by staying the course. That doesn't mean
                 to ignore short-term fluctuations, but most of us here are
                 quite far from retirement age and have time on our side.
                 \_ "Yea, things are overpriced, but you need to get in or
                    you will miss the boat.  Just invest for the long term."
                    That's what they say at the height of the internet
                    bubble too.
                    \_ Maybe. On the other hand, I thought we were at the
                       top 4 years ago (when I bought). I needed a place
                       to live. I wouldn't buy an investment property
                       right now. However, I'd buy a 'home' if I needed
                       one and could afford it.
                  \_ How far off is the DOW/NAS/etc now from where they were
                     at the top of the dotocm bubble?
                     \_ nasdaq: 5000 (top of bubble 5+ years ago), 2000 (now)
        \_ The End Is Nigh:
2005/10/13 [Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:40069 Activity:nil
10/13   Is Drudge trying to, um, tell us something by making this one of his
        top stories:
        "Suddenly at the forefront of taking sex aids mainstream, conservative
        marketer Johnson & Johnson almost overnight has doubled sales of its
        once-sleepy K-Y brand for the second time in four years thanks to the
        blockbuster summer rollout of a new line of massage oils. And nowhere
        has that success been greater than at Wal-Mart, where K-Y Touch
        Massage oils have hit the list of top 10 new health and beauty
        products of 2005, according to J&J VP-Personal Care Marketing Jim
        \_ I think he's trying to tell us that J&J has doubled their sales of
           their once-sleepy K-Y brand.  What did you have in mind?
           \_ I think he's trying to say that liberal is the new conservative.
              \_ ???
2005/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40070 Activity:kinda low
        Photo op where soldiers read to Dubya only good news
        \_ Great headline: "Bush Teleconference With Soldiers Staged"
           \_ "We're an empire now, we create our own reality"
2005/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40071 Activity:kinda low
10/13   Polls don't matter!
        \_ I can't remember where I saw this, but apparently one of these
           polls give Bush a 2 percent approval rating among blacks.
           2 percent!
           \_ WSJ/NBC News poll.  89 blacks surveyed.  I guess that means
              2 out of 89 said "do approve".  A Pew poll showed 12%.
              \_ Yeah, obviously, margin of error is high.  Still, 2 percent!
                 \_ That's within a margin of error of being zero. Neat!
2005/10/13-14 [Computer/HW/Memory] UID:40072 Activity:nil
10/13   Remember rapidly climbing memory prices?  All the memory makers were
        in on it.
2005/10/13-14 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40073 Activity:low
10/13   Hi motd, while the press releases are saying shit like "Katrina
        floodwaters not as toxic as thought", I'm going to quote from the ACS-
        sponsored journal article:
        "What distinguishes Katrina floodwaters are their large volume and the
        human exposure to these pollutants that accompanied the flood rather
        than extremely elevated concentrations of toxic pollutants."
        In other words, the floodwaters were as shitty and bacteria-laden as
        "typical" storm run-off, but this time it's up to your neck as opposed
        to something you can hop over at the curb. -Former Chem 1A/B TA
        \_ After a month of toxic flood talk, it's just hard to get too
           excited over the more realistic appraisal.
2005/10/13-14 [Uncategorized] UID:40074 Activity:nil
10/13   First PSP Trojan:
2005/10/13-14 [Finance/Investment] UID:40075 Activity:nil
10/13   Was watching Jim Cramer on Mad Money.  Guy was calling in on
        how likely Fed is gonna raise rates.  Jim Cramer says it's
        simple, Fed is going to continue raising rates until the housing
        bubble pops.
        \_ Err, isn't the Fed raising rates because of inflation?
        \_ I wonder how directly the interest rate now ties into rising
           prop values. Sure, the initial huge gains were triggered by
           low rates. But later it has been the spectacle of previous
           huge gains that drive investors to keep buying and flipping
           to each other without much regard to interim monthly payments.
2005/10/13-14 [Consumer/Audio] UID:40076 Activity:moderate
10/13   MP3 player breast implants?
        \_ Why not just put zippers on the bottoms?
2005/10/13-14 [Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:40077 Activity:high
10/13   I know how to set up nis master/slave services on a solaris (8)
        box.  But given already set up services, how can I tell which
        is master and which is slave?
        \_ 'ypwhich -m'  is what you want. The master server is encoded into
           the NIS maps themselves.   -ERic
        \_ ypwhich? iirc, the  master should tell you that it is its
           own master and the slave should tell you that the other
           machine is the master. I'm not sure if this works for nis+.
           \_ hmm, really?  in linux-land i have seen SlaveNIServerX
              respond to a yphich which "SlaveNIServerX"
              \_ I think I'm wrong, maybe 'ypwhich -m hosts' (or some
                 other map) might work.
                 \- you can use something like this:
    rpcinfo -p <host> |grep -q ypxfrd && echo "ypmaster" || echo "not_ypmaster"
       rpcinfo -p <host> |grep -q ypxfrd && echo YPMASTER || echo NOT_YPMASTER
                    obviously you can loop over something like
                    foreach i (`ypcat ypservers`). --psb
2005/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40078 Activity:moderate
        Bush learned his lesson about appointing incompetent cronies
        to head important government agencies, right? Oh shit, no he
        \_ Michelle Malkin should not be cited as an authority on anything.
                \_ Fortunately there are dozens of others saying the same
                   thing all over the internet.
2019/02/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:October:13 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>