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| 2005/10/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39996 Activity:low |
10/6 "Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in
voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops
may use against terrorism suspects ..."
http://csua.org/u/dn2 (Wash Post)
\- anybody know the list of senators voting against defining the
limits? i see powell spoke up too.
\_ http://csua.org/u/dn4 [senate.gov]
\_ how about just abide by Geneva Convention and allow International
Redcross inspect the suspects? we don't need new law here.
\_ Then why is the White House opposing it?
\_ because White House want to use 'all means necessary'
to extract information from those so called 'terrorist.'
\_ ^want^needs^
\_ want, not need. everyone can say they 'need' the
information. And if you put things to perspective,
Nazi Germany was a much more real threat to US
security then than so-called terrorist to US today.
\_ You misunderstand. I'm saying that the CinC
must have the option of using any and all
means, including torture, first strike, &c,
that he deems are necessary to defend the
republic.
\_ All government bodies object to restraint on their power.
\_ The geneva convention doesn't apply to non-state actors
who refuse to abide by its rules. It also doesn't apply
to the type of conflict we are involved in.
NOTE: There may be other reasons to avoid torture (ie. it
is not effective).
\_ The Geneva Convention very explicitly applies to anyone
whose status is unknown. -tom
\_ Tom is correct on this, the anon parrot quoting White House
talking points is wrong. -ausman
\_ The fun part is that nearly everyone detained by the military
in Iraq is by definition an "unlawful combatant." Heck, if
the military were able to operate legally within the US,
it would be the same unless they they are wearing some form
of ID signifying them as members of an opposition armed force.
\_ Such form of ID would be called a uniform, as required by
the Geneva Convention in order for someone to be covered.
\_ Once again, you are wrong.
"Should any doubt arise as to whether persons,
having committed a belligerent act and having
fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to
any of the categories enumerated in Article 4,
such persons shall enjoy the protection of the
present Convention until such time as their
status has been determined by a competent
tribunal." (Geneva Convention Article 5). -tom
\_ It is you who are wrong. Given that you
agree that Covention 3 governs, start w/
Part 1 Art 2 cl 1 states that the Convention
Part 1 Art 2 cl 1 which states that the
Convention
"shall apply to all cases of declared war
or of any other armed conflight which may
arise between to or more of the High Contr-
acting Parties"
Clearly this provision does not apply to
terrorist who are not "High Contracting
Parties." Unless you can show me where
AQ, &c. signed on to the convention.
Perhaps you wish to look to Part 1 Art 2
cl 3:
"although one of the Powers in the conflict
may not be a party to the present Convention,
the Powers who are parties thereto shall
remain bound by it in there mutual relations."
Clearly this provision does not apply to terrorist
who are not "High Contracting Parties." Perhaps
you wish to look to Part 1 Art 2 cl 3:
"although one of the Powers in the conflict may
not be a party to the present Convention, the
Powers who are parties thereto shall remain
bound by it in there mutual relations."
This contemplates organized state action, not
decentralized terrorist action. But even
assuming that Con 3 applies b/c of this clause,
and that we can therefore look to Art 4, A, we
find that
(1) does not apply b/c terrorist aren't part
of the armed forces of a Party in conflict
b/c they aren't part of the armed forces
of any country.
disorganized terrorist action. But even assuming
that Con 3 applies b/c of this clause, and that
we can therefore look to Art 4, A, we find that
(1) does not apply b/c terrorist aren't part of
the armed forces of a Party in conflict b/c
they aren't part of any armed forces.
(2) does not apply b/c at least requirment (b)
is not met
(3) does not apply b/c they are not members of
the regular armed forces
(4) does not apply b/c they do not accompany
armed force in any manner of speaking
(5) does not apply b/c the Party in conflict
has no crews, masters, pilots, &c.
(6) does not apply b/c they do not respect
the laws and customs of war
Having dispensed w/ that, lets us look to B,
Having dispensed w/ that, let us look to B,
where we find that this provison doesn't apply
either.
There are two major problems w/ the solace
you find in Art 5, first there should be some
doubt of which there is none (see above).
Second, the protection only lasts until a
competent tribunal - such as a US military
tribunal - makes a determination re Art 4
status. Once the tribunal makes a determin-
ation that the person does not fall w/in
Art 4, the protection afforded by the conv-
ention ends.
NOTE: This does not imply that I believe
that torture should be used, only
that there is no legal barrier to
its use against non-citizen non-
state enemy combatants.
that my understanding is that
there is no legal barrier to its
use against non-citizen enemy
its use against non-citizen enemy
combatants not formally associated
with any state and not held w/in
the jurisdiction of a US dist ct
(if the person is w/in the jx of
a US dist ct habeas and 8th amend.
relief may be available - hamdi
does not answer that question re
non-citizens).
\_ So someone who is a Pakistani
or Iraqi citizen, who is
detained...
with any state.
(it is an open question whether
habeas relief is available in
such a case).
a US dist ct habeas relief maybe
available - hamdi does not answer
that question re non-citizens).
\_ So someone who is a Pakistani or Iraqi
citizen, who is detained
\_ Ok, so I have a stupid question.
Is the Geneva Convention legally
binding under U.S. law anyway?
I.e. supposing that it could be
shown that, say, Rumsfeld was
directly responsible for an order
that was in clear violation, is
there any actual legal way to
convict him of some crime?
I would guess that for people in
uniform this would be covered in
the UCMJ, but what about civilians?
\_ The Covention is not self
executing (it cannot be
executing (ie cannot be
enforced directly in US
cts). Part 6, Art 129
executing. Part 6, Art 129
states that
"[t]he High Contracting Parties
undertake to enact any legi-
slation necessary to provide
penal sanctions for persons
committing, or ordering to
be committed"
breaches of of the Convention.
In order for Rummy to be puni-
shed, he would have to be con-
victed under any applicable
fed law executed to enforce
the Convention. This is assu-
ming that Bush would not use
his pardon pwr under US Const
Art 2 Sec 2 cl 1.
victed under the applicable
fed law. This is assuming that
Bush didn't use his pardon pwr
under Art 2 Sec 2 cl 1.
under US Const Art 2 Sec 2 cl
1.
The preferable method to deal
with something like this would
be to impeach him pursuant to
US Const Art 2 Sec 4 ("civil
officer") b/c the Pres. pardon
pwr does not apply to impeach-
ment ("except in cases of
impeachment").
ment.
One completely useless alt. is
to pursue an action in the ICJ.
\_ "to enact any legislation
necessary..." Right, but
does such legislation exist
\_ "to enact any legislation necessary..."
Right, but does such legislation exist
on the U.S. lawbooks?
\_ I believe (but am not
100% certain) that fed
laws re torture, &c.
exist that cover these
violations - note that
new laws specific to
the Convention may not
be needed if adequate
legislation already
exists.
either. Perhaps you find solace in Art 5 cl 2
"should any doubt arise as to whether persons
having committed a belligerent act and having
fallen into the hands of the enemy belong to
any of the categories enumerated in Art 4,
such persons shall enjoy the protections of
the present Convention"
Note that this is conditioned on the status of
such persons being "determined by a competent
tribunal." Even if you can prove that there is
some doubt, there is no reason to 2d guess the
determination of a US military tribunal re
whether someone falls w/in Art 4.
with any state.
\_ Ok, so I have a stupid question. Is the
Geneva Convention legally binding under
U.S. law anyway? I.e. supposing that
it could be shown that, say, Rumsfeld was
directly responsible for an order that
was in clear violation, is there any actual
legal way to convict him of some crime?
I would guess that for people in uniform
this would be covered in the UCMJ, but
what about civilians?
In order for Rummy to be pun-
ished, he would have to be
convicted under the applicable
fed law.
Art 2 Sec 4 ("civil officer")
b/c the Pres. pardon pwr does
not apply to impeachment.
ment.
violations.
\_ did they regulate that interrogators should only ask suspects
nicely, using words like 'Please' and 'thank you', and house them
only in 5-star hotel equivalent living conditions?
\_ No, but they did declare the squallor of your apartment a
violation of the Geneva Convention. |
| 2005/10/6-7 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:39997 Activity:nil |
10/5 Imagine living in NYC with all the conveniences without the
pollution, dirt, crowds, and expensive housing. Imagine a city
that is well connected via mass transit and is completely walkable.
Housing is scalable and thus affordable, and work place is nearby.
School and daycare are within walking distance. Shopping
and retail stores are only 10 minutes away. Imagine no more.
New Songdo City is here:
http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/story.php?artid=1192
http://www.new-songdocity.co.kr
\_ I don't follow you on the "scalable and thus affordable" bit.
Assuming this venture succeeds, and this becomes a very desireable
place to live where people can find very high paying jobs, why
wouldn't the cost of housing in the convenient locations spiral
upwards just like in other successful cities? I guess it might be
a chance to see what a downtown housing market looks like without
rent control or rent subsidies, but there are probably other cities
like than by now anyway.
upwards just like in other successful cities?
\_ Where will I park my Hummer?
\_ Will I have to forsake busty, blonde, blue-eyed women in favor of
slanty-eyed chicks with small tits?
\_ Pardon?
\_ Considering you obviously cannot get either, I don't see how
it matters.
\_ "For everything else, there is MasterCharge..."
\_ is it in the range of North Korea's artilery?
\_ It's within range of their nukes.
\_ It's within range of their nuclear catapualt.
\_ Nucular |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:39998 Activity:nil |
10/6 Is there a UNIX command line that uses an SMTP server to send out
email? Something like:
prompt> mail joe@blogspot.com -smtp_server <DEAD>smtp.yahoo.com<DEAD> -user
sam@yahoo.com -password abcdefg
\_ ObUseTelnet
\_ Theres probably more modern tools, but 11 years ago I downloaded
~mehlhaff/bin/mailforge.sh, which I've never actually used.
The trick is finding an open SMTP relay that will let you use it.
-ERic
\_ http://esmtp.sourceforge.net I think this is the esmtp I use
with a ~/.esmtprc that does what you describe. -ax |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Reference/Religion] UID:39999 Activity:nil |
10/6 "nobody seriously thinks what happened in Bali has anything to do with
Iraq. There are, in the end, no root causes, or anyway not ones that
can be negotiated by troop withdrawals or a Palestinian state. There is
only a metastasising cancer that preys on whatever local conditions are
to hand. Five days before the slaughter in Bali, nine Islamists were
arrested in Paris for reportedly plotting to attack the Metro. Must be
all those French troops in Iraq, right?"
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16801982%255E7583,00.html
\_ I agree with everything he sais about Islam, but the claim that
Christianity is not also guilty of this mentality is absurd.
American religious right leaders have publicly stated exactly the
same objectives as these islamists. They may not have have power
right now, but they're still just as much a threat to the survival
of our civilization. No one should ever forget that Jerry Falwell
sided with the terrorists on 9/11, and that he continued to be a
VIP guest at the Bush whitehouse after that time.
\_ Oh for crying out loud, not this again. Falwell did /not/ side
with the terrorists. If you want to debate that point yet again,
start a thread, but your revisionist history is pathetic. And
sign your name. -emarkp
\_ You're both right/wrong: http://csua.org/u/dna
\_ Um, no. Your link doesn't say that Falwell sided with the
terrorists. I'm aware of the content your link has, which
is why I know that Falwell didn't side with the terrorists.
How am I wrong on this? -emarkp
\_ Because you're bothering to argue with an obviously
inflammatory remark. --erikred
\_ You're both right/wrong:
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/f/falwell-robertson-wtc.htm
\_ Yeah, Christians haven't done a large scale massacre of members
of a different religion for almost 10 years. Why can't those
Islamists be more like that?
\_ Are you refering to Bosnia? I think if it's Christians v
Muslims it still fits the framework. It's not that all
the other parties are totally innocent, just that it seems
to be much more universal with Muslims.
\_ And the US helped the Muslims there against the Christinas.
Of course the Muslim world don't want to remember this.
\_ Nor did we ever want to mention that they were Muslim.
We called them "Albanians" and "Serbs". Not "Islamists"
and "Christianistas"
\_ And white Christians were doing the killing so it can't
REALLY be about religion. Must be nationalistic. Yeah...
\_ And white Christians were doing the killing so it
can't REALLY be about religion. Must be nationalistic.
Yeah...
\_ What's wrong with that? Are you saying that if we were
helping Muslims without calling them Muslims, we were
not helping Muslims; while if we are attacking Muslims
without calling them Muslims, we are still attacking
Muslims? This is double standard.
\_ Er, no, I'm not saying that. I'm suggesting that
the word choices are interesting. good muslim ==
"albanians" imo because "muslim" has a negative
connotation with a large portion of the american
public.
of our civilization.
We called them "Albanians" |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:40000 Activity:nil |
10/6 Looks increasingly like US has had its first suicide bomber.
OKC Ch 9:OU Suicide Bomber Attempted Stadium Entry/5 Others
Involved, Ticket to Algeria Found -jblack
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1497375/posts
\_ Oh, you mean aside from those dozen-odd guys who rammed a bunch
of planes into things a few years ago? -John
\_ I assume he meant "home grown."
\_ This is a much more complete run-down, with links for all his
facts. http://www.zombietime.com/oklahoma_suicide_bombing
\_ they are now saying it was remote controlled and, though this
is old news, the guy tried to buy ammonium nitrate |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:40001 Activity:nil |
10/6 Larry Elder writing about Bill Bennett: http://csua.org/u/dnf "How does one artfully say that out of a small percentage of America's population -- 13 percent -- blacks account for 37.2 percent of all those arrested for violent crimes, 54.4 percent of all robbery arrestees, and are the known offenders in 51.3 percent of all murders? The murder rate in the city of New Orleans stands at over 7.5 times the national average, and authorities convict only one in four arrested for homicide." \_ One recognizes it's not about their race, but other factors. \_ Ever wonder why white collar crime is never broken up by race? \_ Because white collar crime are not violent crimes? People fear less for white collar crimes than for violent crimes, even in homogeneous society. \_ A mugger will only take your wallet. Kenny boy will end your job, take your life savings and put you on the street! \_ but Kenny boy is dubya's friend... \_ But a mugger would stab me to death as he pleases. \_ Why? If caught mugger/killer could face life in prison or death penalty. If Kenny is caught, well, he's still free ain't he? \_ Savings and credit can be rebuilt; a perforated heart probably can't be. If a guy is mugging you to begin with, considerations such as "he might get caught" aren't really a serious deterrent. Violent crime isn't inherently rational to begin with -- which is partially what makes it scary (aside from, you know, the possibility of being stabbed to death or getting raped). \_ Which would be true if every mugging resulted in death, rape, etc. But they don't. Odds are Kenny will do less time for damaging thousands lives than some fool who gets caught for doing for robbing $100 from somone. \_ It's not what "will" happen, it's the fact that it "can" happen -- and is far more likely a possibility. Honestly, I'm not even sure what the point of the conversation is. I'm not going to be able to keep on posting to this thread -- too much going on here right now. Perhaps the other guy will pick up the thread. Sorry man. \_ Not to mention few robbers can rob thousands at once or steal Billions. The amount of money stolen by bank robbers is insignificant to what the white collar crooks can steal. \_ Why? If caught mugger could face life in prison or death penalty. If Kenny is caught, well, he's still free ain't he? \_ That article has some stellar quotes. \_ Because white collar crime are not violent crimes? |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:40002 Activity:nil |
10/6 Is there an easy way in Perl to enumerate a complete file tree from a
given directory?
\_ File::Find?
\_ This looks far too complex for what I need. But if there's
nothing simpler I guess I can use it.
\_ use File::Find;
find(sub { print("$File::Find::name\n"); }, '.');
# how much simpler did you want?
\_ Yeah, after trying it, it was easier than I thought.
Thanks for the recommendation. |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Uncategorized] UID:40003 Activity:nil |
10/6 New BOINC project Rosetta@home now available. Does anyone know how
it's different from Predictor@home and the non-BOINC Stanfraud project
Folding@home? Thx. |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Reference/Religion] UID:40004 Activity:nil |
10/7 Score one for religious freedom -- Ancient mandean religion on verge
of extinction in Iraq thanks to post-invasian chaos.
http://tinyurl.com/79n52 (forgot URL last time) |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:40005 Activity:nil |
10/6 Bush: "The militants believe that controlling one country will rally
the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow all moderate governments
in the region, and establish a radical Islamic empire that spans from
Spain to Indonesia." Replace a few words and you get the original
Bush/neocon plan for spreading democracy in the Middle East. Neat trick!
\_ Have you ever heard of the psychological term "projection"?
90% of what comes out of that guys mouth is explained by it.
\_ He and his gang of cronies may be a bunch of lying, incompetent
fuckwits, but you need to seriously consider looking up the term
"empire". Or maybe that's one of your few words... -John |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40006 Activity:nil |
10/6 Bush approval rating down to 37%
http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm
Will the Rove and Libby indictments get him into the 20s?
\_ What can I say. Bush has inspired an entire generation of young
Americans to a whole new level of mediocrity.
\_ Maybe its not related, but I have noticed many more people on
television have been using poor english and/or idiotic southern
accents. Perhaps since our president is such an idiot, it
makes it "ok" for other tv personalities to be idiots too.
-mrauser
\_ being an idiot lets people recuse themselves of blame
\_ Nope. At least 30% of the people will believe it's not Bush's fault.
True believers.
\_ Not a big surprise. The Miers nomination is alienating his core.
For me it's the last straw.
\_ Does that mean you're among his core? How is this the "last
straw" for you rightwing drool monkies? Haven't you gotten
plenty of reactionary behavior out of him already?
\_ This is borderline schadenfreude. As a liberal, I think
we need to fix this guy's mess, not gloat about it.
\_ And "we" can't even begin that while people continue to
back the party that rubberstamps him (and is in power).
If we're going to fix his mess, we have to keep showing
people what a FUCKUP he is. And THEY have to start talking
to their R congresspeople (as well as the D's who vote
for shit like bankruptcy reform).
\_ I enjoy every SNL and Daily Show satire of Bush as
the next person. But that's all in good humor. I
also have a lot of friends who are R but they are,
for the most part, moderate. I don't think calling
for the most part, moderete. I don't think calling
them drool monkies is a good way to get them on my
side and making them realize what a screw up Bush
is.
\_ I wasn't drool monkey guy. Sorry. Didn't notice
that portion of the guy's comment.
\_ I wasn't drool monkey guy. Sorry.
\_ You've got it backwards. Bush rubberstamps bills from
congress.
\_ He is only doing two things well: keep on the job in Iraq, and
cut taxes/keep them low. He's dropping the ball on his
nominations, cutting spending, vetoing anything (George Will's
excellent example was McCain-Feingold), controlling the US
border, etc.
\_ There is a limit to how low it can go, since both Democrats and
Republicans contain a core of true believers who will always support
their leader, unless he starts biting off the heads of puppies
on live tv, because the "other guy" would always be so much worse.
"Bush is spending money like a drunken sailor but Kerry would be
spending twice as much, etc."
\_ Our guy only bites off puppy heads! The other guy would be
clubing baby seal!
clubing baby seals!
\_ Nixon bottomed out at 27%.
\_ Kinda amazing, isn't it? It was pretty much obvious he'd
abused the government to allay his own fears and 27% of the
US was pretty okay with that. But then again, Reagan sold
arms to the "enemy" and was still hugely popular. Ah, Amurica!
arms to the "enemy" and was still hugely popular. Ah,
Amurica!
\_ Komrade, it is speeled AmeriKKKa. |
| 2005/10/6-9 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:40007 Activity:nil |
10/6 What's the easiest way to get the ip from the env var
SSH_CLIENT="10.10.10.10 1212 22" in bash? I want to use it to
set the DISPLAY env var.
\_ see man pages for any/all of: sed, awk, perl, cut, tr (and many
others).
\_ Why are you doing this? ssh will set DISPLAY itself if you
run it with the right options, and it will do it securely. -tom
\_ Ah, thx.
\_ ssh -X -l mylogin hostname
\_ ssh -Y -l mylogin hostname
\_ Ok, now it's slow. ;) What's the fastest cipher and mac
to use? The choices are:
rc4/blowfish/aes-128/192/256/twofish/3des...
\_ plaintext.
\_ IMO, blowfish is the best blend of speed and security
\_ RC4 is by far the fastest, and secure enough for joe averages
using SSH2.
\_ After you log in, how do you see what cipher/mac is in use?
\_ depends on what ssh you use, obviously. i don't know of
a way for openssh. use -v to see what's being
negotiated.
\_ Ok, now it's slow. ;) What's the fastest cipher and mac to use? |
| 2005/10/6 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:40144 Activity:nil |
10/5 On an IDE hard disk, if you have write cache turned off, is
there any advantage to using data=journal mode rather than
data=ordered mode? |
| 5/17 |