Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:September:19 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/9/19-21 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:39746 Activity:nil
9/18    I just installed Red Hat Enterprise Linux 2.1 and everything
        seems to work ok except my httpd cannot be reached outside
        of the box. I have no problem pinging and sshing into the
        system, but http connection would not work. However, it does
        seem to work when I launch firefox within (same machine).
        What could cause this? I'm not familiar with PAM and I'm
        wondering if that's the culprit, and how I can check/fix it. Thanks.
        \_ PAM is a system for authentication and has nothing to do with httpd
           (barring certain login mechanisms, but that's another story). Your
           problem sounds like a firewall issue. You probably need to poke a
           hole in RedHat's default firewall to allow inbound connections to
           whatever port httpd is running on (probably 80 if it's started on
           boot or 8080 if you start it manually, but it's configurable). -gm
        \_ I'm going to guess you're a fucking idiot, but that's just a
           \_ U = teh ghei.  Check firewall rules, and whether the listening
              addresses in httpd.conf are correct.  -John
        \_ Yes I'm an idiot, I've never done this before. So where do I
           configure firewalls? What files?
           \_ Ignore dim, he's just some out-to-lunch math guy at JPL.
           \_ I apologize for my harsh language. I had a bad day
              yesterday. I think RH 2.1 still uses ipchains, but it might
              use iptables. Look to see which one you are running, if any. You
              can do this with '/sbin/chkconfig --list'. Post your findings.
           \_ Ok I looked up and it's due to ipchains. I tried to correct
              it by "ipchains -A input -s http -p TCP -j ACCEPT"
              and other crap and after about 35 minutes fiddling and
              reading horribly written man-pages without a godamn simple
              example, I just turned it off. /etc/init.d/ipchains stop
              did wonders. I'm just learning so I don't really care about
              firewalls. People need to learn to WTFM (write the fucking
              manpage) better. And btw you're a mean, mean guy, dim. You
              almost made me cry.                               -op
              \_ There are some good examples and tutorials online.  Would
                 you like links to some?  -John
                 \_ yeah yeah, please! Thank you John!          -op, newbie
                    \_ Google says:
2005/9/19-21 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39747 Activity:low
9/19    Holy crap, NK give up nukes: (ruters)
        \_ Well, they're just lying about it again because they're desperate.
        \_ What makes you think NK's commitment to Bush is any more meaningful
           than their commitment to Clinton?
           \_ So, I don't really.  However, in this case pretty much all
              the concerned countries are involved, so there should be less
              bait-and-switch and divide-and-conquer going on.
              \_ see post below about x from Japan, y from China, etc.
        \_ LA Times is a bit more complete:
           Also, it's true that one of the biggest problems is NK habit of
           strongly denying things that we have verified evidence of.  For
           example, before the 1994 treaty it was shown that NK had already
           unloaded fuel rods from Yongbyon.  NK denied and there was a big
           hubub.  Now they're denying that they have a program
           based on enriched uranium sheesh.
              \- the second plank of the non-proliferation treaty is
                 the recogized nuke power are supposed to move toward
                 nuke disarmament ... so there is bogosity on all sides.
                 BTW, i dont actually think it makes any sense to move
                 toward zero nukes. if you have 1000 nukes and the enemy
                 has 1000, it doesnt really matter if they "cheat" and
                 build 100 more. if you go down to 10 or zero and somebody
                 does cheat, then the relative gains make a big diff.
                 you may wish to see adelphi paper #???: the spread of
                 nuclear weapons: more may be better, by K. Waltz. --psb
                 \_ I think the issue is that we don't really punish
                    those who managed to get the nukes, Pakistein, especially.
                    if anything, we should of invaded Pakistein for
                                                      \- is that the jewish
                                                         province of pakistan?
                    1. having nuke, and 2. give nuke technology to
                    'axis of evils'  May be we should of impose
                    ecnomic sanctions against India.  We might save
                    some American jobs at the same time.
                        \_ Pakistan doesn't have oil, does it?
        \_ didn't we see this before under Bubba?
           Light-water reactors funded by Japan and S Korea, oil from China,
           a statement of non-aggression from the U.S. -- in exchange for
           no-nukes until the UN inspectors get kicked out again?
           Wasn't Dubya all about no concessions, no negotiations?  Oh yeah,
           that's what got the UN inspectors kicked out in the first place!
           \_ No he wasn't.  Go back and read the back articles.
              \_ Revisionist historians is what I call them!
              \_ Revisionist historian is what I call you!
                 Seriously, though, there are some differences:  For one,
                 the U.S. is not promising a light water reactor.
                 Dubya is not promising a light water reactor.
                 \_ I'm not sure I understand what you've posted.  Bush is
                    no concessions because he didn't give them light water
                    \_ Bottom line:  Dubya was about no negotiations, but he
                       negotiated.  Theoretically freepers should be calling
                       Dubya an appeaser now -- but as long as their guy does
                       it, they give him the benefit of the doubt.
                       "Dubya appeases Kim Jong-il with oil and aid!"
                       Bottom line 2:  I'm glad Dubya negotiated.
                       \_ From "How To Negotiate the Best Deal on a Car"
                          ( "Learn to
                          keep a 'poker face' and be prepared to walk away
                          one or more times until the seller agrees to a
                          reasonable price."
        \_ In the matter of NK, the biggest problem is that US want to have
           the regime toppled.  The other countries in the region want
           to have NK regime evolve.  And the shortie in NK wants to
           survive.  To survive, it needs to evolve, but at the same time
           if it doesn't have nukes, US may try to topple it.
           \_ Perhaps the China elite convinced Kim Jong-il that he could have
              his dictatorship and capitalism at the same time.
              \_ they tried.  The problem is that N.Korea does not have the
                 market size to lure investers.
           \_ While it's true that the US would probably be fine with NK
              crumbling, we haven't been working with that assumption.
              That was the assumption Clinton went in with, Bush has
              decided that NK is probably gonna be around for a while.
              This is mostly because there is not any "safe" way for us to
              invade them.
              \_ China nor the other Korea want to see N.Korea collapse for
                 the same reason why you don't want to see Mexico's economy
                 went tank.  After all, it's their backyard and it's China
                 and S.Korea have to put up with refugees and nuclear
                 fall outs.
2005/9/19-21 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:39748 Activity:nil
        Same idea as that sphere game a while back where you select
        from 10 items and try to do so in the right order so that
        everything grows to its fullest. -bz
2005/9/19-21 [Health/Sleeping] UID:39749 Activity:kinda low
9/19    sodans in their 30s+, do you have sleeping problems? What do you
        do about them? When I was at Berkeley I can't wake up in the
        morning, I could go to sleep anytime and sleep very well. Now
        my brain is awake at 7am yet my body is tired. Every once in a
        while I will sleep well, but often times it's just OK. Anyone
        else have similar issues? What do you do about them?
           You the same guy who posted the above?
        \_ I have friends who found Ambien very helpful. -dans
        \_ I went to stanford sleep clinic. I ended up having sleep apnea.
           But if you aren't having mental issues like cloudy thinking
           then sounds like you are just out of shape. Go excercise 4 days
           a week (cardio) and take vitamins.
           \- I have evolved beyond sleep.
              \_ What, no more lamppost collisions?
           \_ when i started working out 4x a week and doing 20+ miles of
              running coupla years ago, my insomnia actually got worse.
        \_ If you're overweight, lose weight.  Eat healthy.
           Exercise every day.  Don't eat after 8pm.
           Work hard and efficiently.  Post to motd as little as possible.
           Have a social life.  Talk to new people, see new places.
           If you do all the above, you should have no problems.
        \_ Exercise, a few glasses of wine with dinner and daily sex
           work for me. If I don't get all of these, I sleep poorly.
                \_ We don't all have access to yermom.
                   \_ Actually, I use my hand on the nights my wife is tired.
                      \_ "tired" i.e, all of them.
           \_ A few glasses of wine? You get buzzed every day?
              \_ Two or three yeah. Two is optimal for longevity, three
                 is probably pushing it a bit. Are you white? My European
                 enzymes have no problem with two or three drinks spaced
                 out over 4 hours.
                 \_ I was gonna say. The guy gets a buzz from 3 glasses of
                    wine over 4 hours? He's a lightweight.
                    \_ I am relatively "light weight". But I was thinking
                       more like 4 glasses over 2 hours from the desc.
                       Actually 2 in a row is enough to give me that
                       alcohol mood shift, I dunno if that can be called a
        \_ Stop waking up when your wife is trying to smother you.
        \_ Cut off all caffeine.  Remember that it has a half-life and takes
           quite a while to metabolize.
           \_ 6 hour 1/2 life to be exact..
        \_ You clearly need a Sleep Number (TM) bed! (j/k those are dumb)
        \_ i do have problem sleep, and I don't have access to sleep clinic.
           There are couple things I've done that helps me:
           * no caffine after 4:30pm.  people say caffine last up to
             6 hours in the body.  I guess for my case, it last a lot longer
             than that.
           * physical exercise.  jogging couple miles helps. sex also helps.
             do both if you can.
                \_ I got arrested the last time I had sex while jogging.
           * don't stuff yourself with food 2 hours prior to sleep.
           * no TV 1 hours prior to sleep
           * no computer/net surfing 1 hour prior to sleep.  I found TV
             and computer usage are some sort of stimulant.  Read a book
           * hate to say this, but try to keep a regular sleep pattern.
             i.e. always sleep at the same time of the day.  allow yourself
             wake up naturally in the morning if you have enough.  Do this for
             about 2 weeks, you will be fine.
           \_ Caffeine is metabalized proportional to the amount in your
              system.  For an adult male the half life is about 6 hours.  So it
              isn't "out of your system" in 6 hours--only half of it is.  In a
              day over 90% is gone.  But that time changes based on body
              weight, chemistry, etc.
           \_ Thank you. no computer/net/tv 1 hour before sleep would
              be difficult to do, but I am gonna give it a try.
                \_ Back to masturbating to the Victoria's Secret catalog
2005/9/19-20 [Computer/SW/OS, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:39750 Activity:nil
9/19    So I have this proprietary logger that writes into a temporary
        directory, and to rotate it, we simply rename it, gzip it, and
        the logger is smart enough to create a new log file. However,
        I've noticed that even after we rename it, the logger still
        APPENDS to the log file, and during the time we gzip and delete
        it, the stuff that is appended, is lost. So I'm wondering if
        there is a command in UNIX that'll CHANGE the inode so that
        I can tell the logger to create a new file as soon as I rename
        it? ok thanx.
        \_ That is because the logger already has the file descriptor open.
         Renaming it doesn't change that. Typically you would rename file,
         send logger the -HUP signal which should cause it to reopen the log
         file, creating a new one if it doesn't exist.. Then you can gzip the
         old one.
        \_ That is because the logger already has the file descriptor
           open.  Renaming it doesn't change that. Typically you would
           rename file, send logger the -HUP signal which should cause
           it to reopen the log file, creating a new one if it doesn't
           exist.. Then you can gzip the old one.
           \_ And if your logger doesn't handle -HUP, you will have to kill
              and restart it.
2005/9/19-21 [Science/GlobalWarming, Reference/Religion] UID:39751 Activity:nil 77%like:39736
9/17    Interesting article re the Dolly Llama's take the relationship btwn
                                   \_ Dalai Lama, maybe?
                                      \_ Someone keeps changing it.
        Science and Religion:
2005/9/19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39752 Activity:high
9/19    motd boring.  Where have all the flame wars gone?!
        \_ Yay! Today's motd is very civil. Let's see, we've talked about
           linux, sleep disorder, fedora, etc. Motd is being useful again!
           As long as left wing right wing nuts stay away motd is cool.
           \_ Nope, motd boring.  And clearly, you love George Bush, you
              \_ And clearly, you're a left-wing nut who loves sodomy,
                 wears "Earth Day" clothes and actually recycles.
                 \_ In Nazi Germany, they didn't recycle either.
2005/9/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39753 Activity:nil
9/19    Flamebait:
        \_ I don't know, I think better flamebait would be, "Tom Tommorow
           is so funny!  Check this out!"
        \_ That was actually pretty funny compared to previous ones.
        \_ Bush disapproval rating at record high 58%
2005/9/19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:39754 Activity:high
9/19    Having fun yet, jblack? Do me a favor. Take a shower and take an
        etiquette class so that you can get yourself a girlfriend.
        Please get a fucking life and fucking stop your freeper crap.
        \_ So, what, did you delete another jblack link?
        \_ It continues to crack me up that you post this crap anonymously.  I
           may have to start posting freeper links just to irritate you.
2005/9/19-21 [Uncategorized] UID:39755 Activity:nil
9/19    Can anyone recommend the best way to get CCNP certified. Who to go
        through, what resources to use to study, etc..
        \_ Do CCNA first, you can do that by yourself.  I really liked the
           courses from Global Knowledge, but that was a few years ago (I
           understand they're not so great anymore.)  Cisco press has good
           study books for the individual tests too.  -John
2005/9/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:39756 Activity:nil
9/19    Gay Penguin goes straight:,2933,169653,00.html
        (yes, its faux news but that doesn't make it any less amusing).
        \_ Coming soon to your local video store: Bi Penguin Sluts do Antartica
        \- so is this fox's subtle attempt at showing that homosexuality
           is really a choice?
2005/9/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39758 Activity:nil
9/19    Bush disapproval at record high of 58%, while 67% disapprove of his
        handling of Iraq.
        For the first time, more Americans say that the labels "honest and
        trustworthy" and "a strong and decisive leader" do NOT apply to Dubya.
        \_ 59% now say Iraq War a mistake. I wonder where all the warmongers
           on the motd went. -ausman
           \_ I think Aaron's in Bellvue.  -tom
           \_ jblack is still trying to convince us ignorant liberals
              that his view point is correct and we're stupid and wrong
              by pointing out facts and figures from well respected
              web sites like Free Republic, Fox News, taemag, etc.
              Emarkp on the other hand is a different story. To recap,
              towards the end of 2004 emarkp point out why the Iraq War
              has made US and the world safer, that it was the right
              decision, and that we should all support our brave and
              wise commander in chief. Lately though he has been pretty
              quiet, either because he is still waiting for the shining
              moment that will prove Bush was right all along, or he
              simply doesn't like interacting with people who have very
              different perspectives than he does.
              \_ False dichotomy. -emarkp
        \_ "Just your best guess, do you think George W. Bush has taken steps
           to help victims of Hurricane Katrina mostly because he sincerely
           cares about the victims, or mostly for political reasons?"
           56% say ...
        \_ you know what, though, he still gets what he wants.  And i am not
           sure he really cares about the polls now that he is on his
           second term.
           \_ yeah, if the senate or the house goes Demo majority in '06, then
              conservatives will have someone to blame again!
2005/9/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:39759 Activity:moderate
9/19    Oh look, North Korea is saying they won't be disarming until they get a
        light water reactor
        \_ obviously the got the idea from the motd...
           \_ The U.S. better get moving with a robust NPT prohibiting uranium
              enrichment, plutonium creation, and a catch-all clause
              prohibiting technology which can lead very quickly to a bomb.
              The excuse I read 6-12 months ago with not doing a real NPT was
              "it would take too long".
              The U.S. has the answer, but just needs to follow through.
              \_ Yes, clearly the problem with Iran and North Korea is that
                 the language in the non-proliferation treaty isn't complete
        \_ dude, this latest agreement is not about N.Korea and its nukes,
           it's about dubya get some headline with a positive spin.
        \_ Interestingly this is the FIRST freerep. link that I have found
           useful.  I agree with many of the comments that basically state
           "the north koreans will just use material in the reactors to
           build more weapons and get another concession from the US."
           \_ You need thousands of centrifuges to weaponize the enriched
              uranium fuel used for light water reactors into a single bomb.
              And, the enriched uranium would be fed to North Korea peacemeal,
              given more as it used up more in the reactor.
              On the other hand, North Korea already has enough plutonium for
              eight bombs:  As many as two bombs while they were playing with
              their graphite reactors in three separate incidents '89-'91,
              and six more since inspectors were kicked out in '02-now since
              six bombs:  As many as two bombs while they were playing with
              their graphite reactor in three separate incidents in '89-'91,
              their graphite reactors in three separate incidents '89-'91,
              and four more since inspectors were kicked out in '02-now since
              Dubya didn't want to finish building the light water reactors
              Bubba promised back in '94 that would be done by '03 -- because
              Kim Jong-il had confessed to a secret nuke program earlier in '02
              (violating NPT) and Dubya didn't know what else to do.
              \_ And this way they get FREE REACTOR.  Do you believe that the
                 moment they unpack their shiny new peaceful toy, they're going
                 to spontaneously erupt into bursts of nuclear-abhorring song
                 and dance?  (No, I can't see the Chinese doing anything but
                 pressuring the US into giving the reactor _before_ NK does
                 anything in return.)  Bombs or not, they're a bunch of evil
                 little pests.  -John
           \_ You need thousands of centrifuges to enrich enough uranium
              from light water reactors for a single bomb.
              That's why people say that even if Iran kicked out all the
              inspectors and went full-bore for bombs, it would take them
              5-10 years for a bomb.
              Bubba promised back in '94 that would be done by '03.
                 \_ The fun part is they don't need nukes to serious screw
                    with the world. A couple of hundred artillery shells would
                    put a serious damper to South Korea's economy, which
                    affects the US economy, and force the US to engage in
                    a third war front. It's goes downhill from there. In truth
                    the nukes or threat of nukes is what is keeping NK an
                    independant state.
                    \_ Personally, I think, without nukes, NK is a paper
                       tiger.  Unlike Iraq, where are continued
                       unrest, resistance and bloodshed, for NK, once the
                       Kim regime is removed from power, the NK people
                       will happily welcome the SKoreans.  The initial
                       attack could be destructive due to the
                       destruction could be destructive due to the
                       proximity of Seoul, but I wouldn't overestimate
                       \_ yup, who cares about civilian casualties
                          when they are not white.
                       the NK conventional forces.  The conventional
                       war would probably last a little longer than
                       Iraq but not much.  But yes, US will be really
                       stretched, but it won't be for very long.  The
                       PLA would gether along the border in case of
                       unrest, etc., but it won't cross the Yalu.  China
                       stretched, but it won't be for very long.  China
                       would want to play a role in terms of establishing
                       influence, but really, there isn't too much that
                       it can do, without appearing very bad since
                       it can do, without appearing rather very bad since
                       the NK regime is morally, and literally, bankrupt,
                       and because China would want to maintain good
                       relations with S. Korea.  Unfortunately, with
                       nukes, things become very scary.  Mr. Kim knows
                       the above, that's why he will always keep his
                       nukes, unless and until he can transform NK, and
                       be viewed as some sort of authoritarian modernizer in
                       the mold of Deng, Putin, Chiang Chingguo, Lee
                       Kuan Yew, etc., but I doubt he has what it takes,
                       and because unlike the other countries, there is
                       a dynamic, succesful, equal-sized South Korea whose
                       existence make a mockery of the legitimacy of his
                       regime.  Still, with nukes, the prudent thing for
                       the surrounding countries to do, is to find a way
                       out for Kim somehow.  China will probably offer
                       him a villa somewhere in China if his regime falls,
                       but it would still be a hot potato for China if
                       a united Korea demands his arse back.
                          \_ They've been selling rockets like hot cakes,
                             I thought.  I would imagine that Pakistan
                             proved pretty conclusively that states which
                             want to be evil little shitbags will be so,
                             regardless of "rational".  I don't understand
                             why the US doesn't just walk away from the
                             table and let Japan, the Chinese and S. Korea
                             handle it--they seem to think themselves well
                             capable of it.  -John
                             \_ NK will only negotiate with the US for
                                some crazy reason.
                             \_ The thing is, China, S.
                                Korea and Japan doesn't care as much as
                                the US as to whether Pakistan has
                                rockets or not.
                                \_ Exactly, and that's part of the problem-
                                   China wants to play regional superpower,
                                   and uses N. Korea as a check to US power.
                                   S. Korea/Japan need US protection on a
                                   strategic level, but not on an immediate
                                   level, so they don't realize the importance
                                   of a balance to the Chinese, and India
                                   seems like they find the US pathetic.  The
                                   logical conclusion seems either to leave
                                   them to sort their shit out, or to let
                                   themselves blow each other to kingdom come.
                                   If the US can resolve (ha ha) the tiny
                                   issue of energy dependency on the middle
                                   east and central asia, pulling out would be
                                   the best option.  -John
                       a united Korea demands his arse back.
                                \_ genau und der ist ein Teil des Problems
                                   China regionalen Superpower spielen möchte
                                   und benutzt N. Korea da eine Überprüfung
                                   zur US Energie. S. Korea/Japan
                                   Notwendigkeit US Schutz auf einem
                                   strategischen Niveau, aber nicht auf einem
                                   sofortigen Niveau, also sie verwirklichen
                                   den Wert einer Balance nicht zum Chinesen,
                                   und Indien scheint, wie sie die US
                                   pathetisch finden. Die logische
                                   Zusammenfassung scheint entweder, sie zu
                                   lassen, um ihre Scheiße heraus zu
                                   sortieren, oder lassen Sie sich zum
                                   Königreich sich durchbrennen kommen. Wenn
                                   die US (ja ja) die kleine Ausgabe der
                                   Energieabhängigkeit auf dem Mittler-Osten
                                   und dem zentralen Asien beheben können,
                                   würde das Ausziehen die beste Wahl sein.
                                   Heil Hitler!                    - John
                       \- demurring on the paper tiger question, they can
                          still sell stuff to non-paper tigers. and they dont
                          have to sell fully functioning nuclear icbms to be
                          a problem. say the regime falls aparts and somewhere
                          you find a receipt for delivery of a couple of kg
                          of highly radioactive material to Mr. Albert Queda
                          (i dunno if they have made ricin or other low tech
                          chem/bio agents) what happens then? this would not
                          be the rational behavior of a state, but the side
                          effect of anarchy.
                          \_ Come to think of it, yes, things could be
                             a little thorny especially since it's not just
                             Kim, but an entire NK generals, officials
                             ruling class.  As much as it's a pain to see
                             justice compromised, it's always a good idea
                             to assure them their safety, and a role to
                             play in a united korea.  Not doing that for
                             the Baath Party members and Iraqi Army officers
                             is one of the biggest mistakes US made.
                             the Baath Party / Iraqi Army officals is one
                             of the biggest mistakes US made, in my opinion.
                             Still to the people of NK, South Koreans are
                             their brothers, unlike the relationship
                             between Iraqis and Pax Americana, so there
                             won't be much resistance once the regime
                       out for Kim somehow.
                             between Iraqis and Pax Americana.
                        \_ You know that the capital of S.Korea is
                           within the artillery range of N.Korean, right?
                           can you imagine what would happened to S.Korean's
                           economy if they suffered just a hour of bombardment?
                           (~60% S.Korean population lives in Seoul)
                           Do you care if hundreds of thousands
                           of refugee across the Yalu river to Chinese border?
                           Do you really think S.Korea has the will and economy
                           to absorb N.Korea?  Chances are, you don't care.
                           Since the Korean War, US only wanted one thing:
                           the collapse of N.Korea regime. Mean while the
                           Chinese/S.Koreans, being at N.Koreans, has a lot
                           of pratical things they need to worry about.  This
                           is why S.Korean's stance is more aligned with the
                           Chinese.  US need to think about WHY S.Koreans,
                           being an ally with USA for past 5 decades, is
                           deviating from USA in terms of N.Korea policy.
                           *FURTHER*  I was hoping Iraq would taught USA
                           a lesson of post-war planning...
                        \_ You know that the capital of S.Korea is
                           within the artillery range of N.Korean, right?
                           can you imagine what would happened to S.Korean's
                           economy if they suffered just a hour of bombardment?
                           (~60% S.Korean population lives in Seoul)
                           Do you care if hundreds of thousands
                           of refugee across the Yalu river to Chinese border?
                           Do you really think S.Korea has the will and economy
                           to absorb N.Korea?  Chances are, you don't care.
                           Since the Korean War, US only wanted one thing:
                           the collapse of N.Korea regime. Mean while the
                           Chinese/S.Koreans, being at N.Koreans, has a lot
                           of pratical things they need to worry about.  This
                           is why S.Korean's stance is more aligned with the
                           Chinese.  US need to think about WHY S.Koreans,
                           being an ally with USA for past 5 decades, is
                           deviating from USA in terms of N.Korea policy.
                           *FURTHER*  I was hoping Iraq would taught USA
                           a lesson of post-war planning...
                           \_ That was sort of my point above--the Chinese
                              have a stake in what happens, while the US is
                              obviously just playing neo-imperialist games.
                              Maybe China should be left to figure out how to
                              deal with N. Korea.  Regarding refugees, they
                              generally tend to stream away from the direction
                              the artillery's coming from... -John
2019/01/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:September:19 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>