Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:August:31 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ
http://csua.com/feed/
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39366 Activity:moderate
8/30    So martial law has been declared in parts of Louisiana.  What I want
        to know is where is the bitching, moaning and wringing of hands about
              \_ I don't see anything natural about it.  -John
        this?  You know, like the bitching about similar things in Iraq.
          -- ilyas
        \_ Yeah, because the situations are so similar.  -John
           \_ Oh, I think comparing Bush to a natural disaster is fair.
              \_ They're arguably both Acts of God. -geordan
              \_ I don't see anything natural about it.  -John
        \_ Ilyas, how about your bitching and moaning about being forced
           AT GUNPOINT to help bail out insurance companies, and other ways
           federal tax dollars are being used in Louisiana?  -meyers
           \_ Maybe because libertarians love welfare, as long as it's rich
              people or corporations who are getting the help.
              \_ so true
        \_ You want we should bomb parts of Louisiana? What can we do there
           that Katrina did not?
        \_ There has been plenty of rioting and looting in Berkeley over the
           years but only the Telegraph shop keepers and their insurance
           companies were upset about that.
        \_ There is no such thing as "martial law" in state law.
           http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46073
2005/8/31-9/2 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:39372 Activity:nil
8/31    Anyone here use ruby? Is it worth learning (say for someone who
        mostly programs in perl/c)?
        \_ You don't say what your intended use is.  For what?  For personal
           pleasure because you're a language geek?  For work?  For a big
           team project?  For one off throw away code?  What?
           \_ I've been hearing a lot about it from co-workers and
              I wanted to know if I should spend some time to learn
              it b/c it is one of those things that any reasonable
              unix person is expected to know.
              Also it is pretty nice, I'd like to re-write some of
              my personal perl programs so I can ditch perl.
        \_ Yeah, it's worth learning, why? Because it's not perl. I'd suggest
           learning Python over Ruby (probably bigger base). Scripting in
           perl just plain sucks, especially if you have to come back to
           it in a couple of months and update the crap.
           \_ If you write crap code in ruby, it will still be crap code
              months from now.  Don't blame the language if you're a shitty
              programmer.
        \_ I started on it.  I read all the online intro/how-to/beginner docs
           but since I'm already proficient with perl I just couldn't find a
           real excuse to write anything in ruby.  Same thing happened to me
           with python.  Yes, there are some things that might be somewhat
           easier in one language over the others, but not so much better
           that I saw value in climbing the learning curve for the rest of it.
        \_ So, all the "small clean code" fans I know swear by it,
           including my boss.  They usually say it's got the best of Perl
           and Python, plus some new features.
           \_ Getting paid to write in it is different than choosing to
              because you like it.  If my boss swore by it I'd be over that
              pesky little learning curve.  :-)
        \_ I use ruby for scripting, primarily because I know Smalltalk
           and I don't know perl. Ruby has a bit of kitchen-sink syndrome
           (let's throw in another language construct / feature!), but
            all-in-all it's decent.
           If you can already do everything you need to in perl,
           there's probably no need to learn ruby, but, I think ruby programs
           are usually easier to read and ruby has some features like
           continuations that are good to know for general programming
           knowledge.  - ciyer
        \_ I've started to use it.  A buddy of mine who was a bigtime
           coldfusion programmer says that Ruby on Rails is prob one of
           the coolest things out now for web app dev.
           see: http://www.michaelbuffington.com and search for ruby.
                                                - vallard
        \_ Ruby is probably the most fun language I've ever coded in.  It makes
           writing everything as beautiful little OO jewels beautifully easy.
           It also lets you do lots of "cool hacks" that probably don't lead
           to good, maintainable code, but they're a hell of a lot of fun to
           write.  That being said, it has some issues:
           * it's the slowest modern language i've ever used
           * dynamic typing + no sigils (perl's @foo, $foo, %foo things to
             sort of indicate type) = lots of runtime errors, for me.
             supposedly if you're a better programmer this doesn't happen, but
             I'm just weak.
           --dbushong
           \_ Yeah this is what I'd say. Well, the slowness part. The lack of
              sigils is a benefit I think... if it's a problem I think you
              might try using naming conventions. But mainly I've only played
              around with it for fun because nobody at work knows about it,
              it's slower, and the smaller userbase and "stuff" out there
              for it compared to Perl. Perl's OO blows so hard though.
              \_ I think one thing Perl is teaching me is that it's important
                 to give pretty names to stupid things.  'Sigil' sounds so
                 much better than 'declare-with-every-use.'  -- ilyas
        \_ I like perl, being a slow learner I have a hard time learning
           yet another new language.  I think what you get with The use of
           ruby on rails is nice; Active Record, MVC (CRUD w/ scaffolding),
           AJAX 'api', testing and debug builtin, reflection (MINIMAL schema
           configuration), etc.  Check out the intro videos on.
           http://www.rubyonrails.org
2005/8/31-9/2 [Reference/Tax] UID:39373 Activity:nil
8/31    Dubya to release oil from strategic petroleum reserves.  Yay!
        \_ Too bad he can't release our strategic refineries.
        \_ It's a stupid idea that will accomplish nothing.
           \_ Psychological effect.
           \_ "Many other refineries are struggling to cope with
               shortfalls of crude caused by the closure of major port
               terminals and pipelines from evacuated and missing rigs in
               the Gulf of Mexico. "
        \_ Slapping a $2 tax on gasoline temporarily would probably fix the
           problem.
           \_ no tax is ever temporary.  taxes don't fix problems.
2005/8/31 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39375 Activity:nil
8/31    What does: "We want someone with less experience" mean?
        \_ "We want someone we can pay less."
        \_ "You're not good enough, but we're too nice to tell you that."
        \_ "The old-timers are afraid you'll get promoted over them."
        \_ "I'm the PHB"
        \_ "We want someone we can mold and shape", "we're afraid you're going
           to get bored and leave" (hiring someone costs money), "we don't want
           you questioning the boss' authority"  -John
        \_ "We don't want promiscuous women to be our wives."
        \_ Either they don't want to pay you what you should be paid or
           they don't think you are goign to be interested in the job because
           a lot of it is boring scutt work and senior engineers tend to get
           bored when all they do is scutt work.
2005/8/31 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:39376 Activity:nil
8/31    Looking for an XML parser for Perl, preferably one that
        doesn't require installation (something already built in).
        If it's not already built in, I prefer something that doesn't
        require C compilation, and that I can just stick the *.pm
        to use. I'm looking for portability, not performance. Thanks.
        \_ What's wrong with using CPAN?
           \_ Sometimes it's nice to be able to just give someone
              a self-contained tar-ball and say "here, run this"
              without expecting them to debug the various CPAN error
              messages that might crop up. I've always found CPAN to
              be a slight PITA.
              \_ Huh? CPAN simply automates the compile for you. It's not
                 like you can simply tell someone to tar xzf foobar.tgz
                 without doing a perl Makefile.pl and then doing a make
                 on it for the majority of modules. Given that you aren't
                 guarenteed where the site modules for perl reside on
                 any given distribution, your safest bet in terms of
                 portability is to utilize make. In the majority of cases,
                 it usually just simply dumps the pm files in the correct
                 place. If you have problems with CPAN, then you most
                 likely will have problems with installation of perl modules
                 anyway. The only way you can really ensure no make, no
                 brain portability is if you have the same setup on all
                 your distribution machines and then do a straight tar off
                 of it. If you're that paranoid about it, you can simply
                 wrap CPAN into a script...
           \_ By searching for XML Parser on CPAN I got like over 1000
              results. I never know whech CPAN modules are the best to
              use and end up wasting time experimenting them. Let me give
              you an example. Someone put up XML::Parser. The name is good
              but the format they use is completely fucked up (hard to use).
              Someone else put up XML::Parser::EasyTree, which is much
              easier to use. By the time I figured out which one has the
              least bugs or problematic or easiest to use, I've already
              wasted 2-3 hours.
        \_ I've been using XML::Simple... I'm only doing basic stuff.
           \_ Interesting! Unlike shitty XML::Parser, according to
              XML::Simple the following two cases are actually equivalent!
                case 1:  <tag1 field=value>HELLO</tag1>
                case 2:  <tag1><field>value</field>HELLO</tag1>
              Do you ever run into problems? I think this is perfectly
              acceptable for my cases and actually makes my life a lot easier.
              THANK YOU MOTD, YOU ARE GREAT.
              \_ Four problems w/ XML::Simple:
                 1) if you're trying to _output_ XML to conform to a specific
                    schema/DTD, it's very hard
                 2) unless you turn off some of the behavior that makes it
                    easy to use, a different file of the same schema can
                    produce a different data structure in perl; not always what
                    you want
                 3) at least when I used it, it caused mod_perl to die horribly
                 4) It reads the whole file into memory.  If you have a huge
                    file you should use something like XML::Twig
                 --dbushong
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39377 Activity:nil
8/31    white people find things:  http://redirx.com/?3h1a
        black people loot:  http://redirx.com/?3h1f - danh
        \_ Note the difference in quantity.  Also the 8-hour difference in the
           time of the photos (i.e. attitudes may have changed in that time).
           \_ Don't you think "finding bread and soda from a local grocery
              store" is pretty strange language, no matter what the quantity
              or timing is?  -tom
              \_ Yes, but why the assumption that race makes the difference?
                 Also, if the items were found outside of the store (floated
                 out, etc.) what would you call it?
                 \_ 1) Occam's Razor.  2) Looting.  -tom
        \_ Didn't someone post this yesterday?  In any case, note that the
           pictures and captions are from 2 different sources.  There's no
           cigar until you have *one* source calling the white act "finding"
           and the same black act "looting".  Ah yes, refer from below to
           http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/44689 .
           \_ Following up to myself, even within one agency, there are
              different photographers and different people writing captions
              to pictures.  So, without being able to track down to one
              caption writer and similar circumstances (impossible to know
              from just looking at a picture), it's hard to make any logical
              conclusion of racism.  I do wonder if this is the best time to
              throw up misleading racism canards though.
        \_ Ok, fine. So what do Asians, American Indians, and Mexicans do?
           You left us out. You're a fucking racist.            -Asian
           \_ wouldn't you smarties have left town before the hurricane
              struck?
              \_ No, they put puzzled-looking gang members with rifles on
                 grocery store roofs when they finally have to deliver
                 something for all that protection money.  Oh wait, sorry,
                 that was in LA.  -John
           \_ Asians ninja their shit ...
              \_ No, they put puzzled-looking gang members with rifles on
                 grocery store roofs when they finally have to deliver
                 something for all that protection money.  Oh wait, sorry,
                 that was in LA.  -John
2005/8/31 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:39378 Activity:nil
8/31    Let's play a game on motd. Post the h077es+ azn you can find on
        Friendster. Hottest defined as attractive women who are over 22+:
        http://www.friendster.com/user.php?uid=2693650
        http://www.friendster.com/user.php?uid=1978073
                \_ Tiffany is lesbian?
        \_ neither of those are 25+
        \_ Is it possible to be "over 22+"?
2005/8/31 [Recreation/Computer] UID:39379 Activity:nil 57%like:39355
8/31    Post the cutest azn gurl you can find on Friendster. Cutest
        defined as having small or no boob ***and over 18***. I'll start:
        http://www.friendster.com/user.php?uid=12144925
        http://www.friendster.com/user.php?uid=3663001
        http://www.friendster.com/user.php?uid=1286225
        http://www.friendster.com/user.php?uid=3111058
        \_ Umm... does anyone else find this a little creepy?
           \_ Well, it's certainly less creepy than say, browsing for porn.
              At any rate it's safe for work (SFW). That's very important.
           \_ um, just a "little" creepy??
           \_ Every woman I've talked to that has tried online dating or
              using such forums as Friendster to meet men has tons of stories
              about creepy guys trying to get in touch with them.  Apparently
              being even a somewhat attractive woman on one of these services
              is an invitation to a deluge of requests.  For instance, one
              girl I knew put a profile on Myspace and got 200 responses from
              men in the first *day*.  You must be one of those creepy men.
              \_ Most of these women look like spammers.
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39380 Activity:high
8/31    Ok, I thought blaming Bush for the levees breaking was stretching
        things a bit, then I run into this:

        "It appears that the money has been moved in the presidents budget
         to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose thats
         the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees cant be
         finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that
         this is a security issue for us."

         Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish,
         Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004
        \_ Parish is a dissent and will be going to Guantanamo Bay soon.
                \_ Idiot! "Parish" is the Lousiana term for district/county;
                   and "Jefferson" being the name of the Parish.
                   \_ Hence further proof that Liberals are idiots.
                      \_ Illogical. If you see a stupid American, does that
                         mean all Americans are stupid? No. Your statement
                         is proof however that _you_ are an idiot.
                   \_ Mr. Parish is also "a dissent".
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39381 Activity:moderate
8/31    Along the lines of fundamentalist idiots saying that HIV is God's
        way of punishing gays, is Katrina God's way of punishing
        fundamentalist idiots who voted for Bush?
        \_ I think coastal urban areas vote democrat even in the South. I'm
           pretty sure New Orleans is overwhelmingly Democratic.  And yes,
           I'm guessing that as with 9/11 we'll be hearing from the bible
           thumping pig fuckers about why this is happening.
        \_ We already have.  Repent America says the hurricane hit LA (and
           MS and AL apparently.  God's aim sucks.) because NO was having
           the Southern Decadence festival on Labor Day weekend.
        \_ No.  It's God's Will.  You heathens can't possibly fathom what
           that means.
        \_ What are you, a stupid liberal? Katrina is God's way of punishing
           U.S. for not kicking out all the gays and lesbians to Canada.
           Speaking of Canada they're gonna get it.     -Christian Fundie
           \_ I thought this was God's way of punishing the insurance
              industry for the sin of greed.
              \_ Good one!
           \_ If that's the case, there should be earthquakes in CA instead of
              one of bush's states.
              hurricanes in one of bush's states.
        \_ Katrina is an omen to the housing market that is about to crash
           and trash like we never seen before. It is a punishment for you
           capitalists trying to gobble up precious resources in the name
           of "using money to make money", and as a result re-create
           Capitalist Monarchy and class hierarchy in the society.
           \_ The housing market is going crash in the southeastern states.
        \_ Apparently some read fundie groups are claiming it is God punishing
           New Orleans for being "sinful":
           http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2005/08/31/cause/index.html
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39382 Activity:nil
8/31    Christopher Hitchens - "A War To Be Proud Of" aka flamebait
        http://csua.org/u/d7h (weeklystandard.com)
        \_ I always find it humorous when people taunt Lefties for comparing
           the War with Iraq with Vietnam, but don't flinch an eye when
           comparing it to WWII, Hitler, et. al. <chuckle>
           comparing it to WWII, Hitler, et. al. <chuckle> I like to point
           out how the war on both fronts didn't end until the US/Allies
           decided to massively kill lots of civilians.
           \_ Um ... oh what's the use.
              \_ You were going to say CH is a lefty?  CH is simply an idiot.
                 \_ s/idiot/drunk/g
                    \_ He _can_ be both.  I'm a drunk.  I'm not an idiot.
2005/8/31 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39383 Activity:kinda low
8/31    Guess the highest cost for a barrel of crude oil this year.
        The closest person gets um... uh, to be praised on motd. I don't want
        explanation or anything. Just the price and your login.
        \_ $85 - anon01
        \_ Why guess?  Why not simply bet on it?
           http://www.tradesports.com/jsp/intrade/common/c_cd.jsp?conDetailID=228266&z=1125523096305
        \_ $69 - yermom
        \_ $121 - gwbush
2005/8/31-9/2 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39384 Activity:nil
8/31    Foamy Squirrel hurricane special: http://csua.org/u/d7k
        \_ http://csua.org is down. This is exactly why I prefer other superior
           sites like http://tinyurl.com. http://csua.org simply can't match the
           scalability and reliability of http://tinyurl.com.
           \_ Scalability of this type of application isn't really an issue.
           \_ http://tinyurl.com was down for ~ 3 hours 2 weeks ago in the middle of
              the day (that I noticed)
           \_ http://csua.org/u also has:
              * list of recent and popular links
              * lists of recent and popular links
              * rss feed of same
              * cached copies of HTML pages
              --dbushong
           \_ http://csua.org/u doesn't have:
              * ads
        \_ This appears to be something available on http://illwillpress.com
           Why bother with http://csua.org.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39385 Activity:moderate
8/31    Quick motd list.  Hurricane Katrina related songs!  I'll start:
        Led Zeppelin, "When The Levee Breaks"
        Simon and Garfunkel, "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"
        Scorpions, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "Hurricane"
        Neil Young, "Like a Hurricane"
        Metallica, "The God That Failed"
        \_ Now it's more like Water Over Troubled Bridge.
        \_ It's more like Water Over Troubled Bridge now.
        Scorpions, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "Hurricane"
        Neil Young, "Like a Hurricane"
           \_ We already have Repent America says the hurricane hit LA (and
              MS and AL apparently.  God's aim sucks.) because NO was having
              the Southern Decadence festival on Labor Day weekend.
        Metallica, "The God That Failed"
        Tchaikovsky, The 1812 Overture
        \_ Why?
        Bob Dylan, "Like a Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "The God That Failed"
        Bob Dylan, "Blowing in the Wind"
        "Row, Row, Row Your Boat", the last line being "Life is but a dream".
        Peter Gabriel, "Here Comes the Flood"
        \_ Bob Dylan, right?
           \_ It's the kid song:
              "Row, row, row your boat,
               Gently down the stream.
               Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
               Life is but a dream."
               \_ Life is not a dream. -spock
        Bob Dylan, "Here Comes the Flood"
        Bob Dylan, "Down in the Flood"
        Elvis Costello, "Pouring Water on a Drowning Man"
        Bob Dylan, "Pouring Water on a Drowning Man"
        James Carville, "I am a very wet Cajun"
        \_ U2 "Summer Rain"
        \_ Bod Dylan, "Summer Rain"
        \_ Johnny Cash: "Three Feet High and Rising"
        Jars of Clay, "Flood"
        \_ Did this Bob Dylan guy have a bad childhood filled with bad weather
           or something?
           \_ Blob Dylan: Where the Street have no name
2005/8/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39386 Activity:nil
8/31    Holy crap.  Stampede in Baghdad when someone cries suicide bomber
        http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1083227&page=1
2005/8/31 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:39387 Activity:nil
8/31    Do any legitimate user-agents make HTTP requests without
        an HTTP  Host:  header these days?
        \_ Not since Netscape 1.1.  -tom
           \_ What about search engine spiders?
              \_ They don't if they want to index correctly.
           \_ Thanks. When GoogleBot makes requests with HTTP/1.0
              does it always send a Host header?
           \_ What about search engines spiders?
2005/8/31 [Uncategorized] UID:39388 Activity:nil
8/31    Were NO residents stupid to stay put?
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/08/31/national/a153752D54.DTL
2005/8/31-9/2 [Computer/HW/Laptop, Computer/Networking] UID:39389 Activity:nil
8/31    Today I declare 802.11x the best thing in the world. Why? Because
        it gives me new freedom to do whatever I want. I'm a typical married
        guy with a kid. Occasionally I need privacy. I need time and
        space to myself, and pretty much the only time where I can be by
        myself is when I drive to/from work, and when I'm in the bathroom.
        Sometime I have an urge and it's kind of hard to relieve myself down
        there without help. However, it is very convenient to take my laptop
        to the bathroom and porn surf. It's a lot better than taking
        Hustler or something obvious into the bathroom. With the laptop,
        it looks like you're working hard, and indeed, you're working hard
        to get pleasure that you once had. I love 802.11x. It has given
        me freedom and a new life. It has increased my quality of life by
        100X. I can't believe I didn't get it earlier. Get 802.11b/g/x!!!
        \_ Please please tell us you're not trying to surf porn and spank your
           monkey while driving to work.
           \_ Nah, he's just using the friendly neighborhood parking lot.
              Have you seen "Happiness?"  Remember the scene with the dad,
              the magazine, and the parking lot?
        \_ moan if you want to ......moan around the world
        \_ Please please tell us your name so that we won't help debug stuff on
           your laptop.
           your laptop without gloves.
        \_ You don't need 802.11x to play adult CDs on your laptop.
2005/8/31 [Health/Women, Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:39390 Activity:nil
8/31    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050831/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_safrica_rape
        Reminds me of childhood jokes about farmer and razor blades
        \_ It doesn't prevent anal rape.
           \_ Upcoming prison-issue version does
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39391 Activity:low
8/31    Local New Orleans paper predicted this problem almost exactly about 3
        years ago:
        http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/harmsway_1.html
        \_ John McPhee predicted this back in 1989. Great Book:
           http://www.johnmcphee.com/controlofnature.htm
           \_ And who came along to cut the funding for the Army corps of
              eng. to work on it?
              \_ Bush, but it was Clinton's fault.
              \_ Just curious, but why do the Feds pay for this? Shouldn't
                 the local tax base pay for it? Touching on the comment
                 someone else made about CA tax dollars leaving the state,
                 why should CA dollars be used to build a bridge in TN or
                 a levy in LA?
                 \_ If you believe that then you also believe we shouldn't
                    have federal taxes higher than required to maintain a
                    national military and little else.  Is that so?
                    \_ Sort of. I think there are other programs other
                       than defense that deserve federal funding, but a
                       lot of this should be handled at the state and
                       local levels.
                    \_ Sort of. I think there are programs other than defense
                       that deserve federal funding, but a lot of this should
                       be handled at the state and local levels.
                        \_ Is this what Federalism means? I help myself
                           and you help yourself?
                           \_ Is that a rhetorical question?
                           \_ And that is why the Kurds and the Sunnis want it.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39392 Activity:high
8/31    Poll: Did you / are you going to donate more/same/less for the Katrina
        relief effort than what you donated for the South Asia Tsunami relief
        effort?
        More            :
        Same            : .
        Less            : .
        Not decided yet : .
        0               : .
        0 in both cases : ..
        \_ I need to defend my reasoning. Donating after a disaster is like
           volunteering to serve food to starving people during Thanksgiving.
           While the gesture is noble, people need food the other 364 days.
           Just because you are nice one day, doesn't mean these people
           will have the means to survive later on. It is thus a shallow
           gesture, and doesn't solve the root of the problem. I don't
           believe in a one-time effort. I believe in a long term, consist
           solution to the root of the problem, like educating people to
           improve their lives, saving up national treasury for rainy days,
           or better yet, make the drastic move to turn US more like Denmark
           where there are no poor people to kill/starve themselves.
           Unfortunately the US government will never do anything. It has
           a history of irresponsively externalizing problems to someone or
           somewhere else. The US has this mentality that if something goes
           wrong with your life, it is always your fault. Well, that is just
           heartless, selfish, and wrong. Your problem is my problem, and
           my problem is your problem.
           my problem is your problem. Let's help each other out. Help
           me turn the profit oriented, corporate-run America into a nation
           that has more compassion for its people. Join my revolution
           and no one will ever have to worry trivial things like donations.
           Help me a little and everyone will be greatly rewarded.  !che
           \_ This is stupid for many reasons, here are some:
                1. The U.S. government has already allocated billions to
                   save New Orleans. Since we all pay taxes, and since
                   California gets only about 80 cents on the dollar for
                   taxes sent to D.C., we are all already footing the bill.
                2. Americans are amongst the highest, if not the highest,
                   donors in the world. On a per capita basis, Americans will
                   donate more to more causes than any other society on the
                   face of the planet.
                3. America is exceedingly diverse. Denmark isn't. You can't
                   compare a dinky country like Denmark to the U.S. In fact,
                   you can't really compare any country to the U.S. The U.S.
                   is unique in terms of composition of its populace and its
                   place in geopolitics.
                4. The U.S. is also the most generous internationally. It
                   gives out more aid to the world than any other country.
              \_ USA actually ranks close to last in aid on a per-capita basis.
                 http://harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html
           \_ God, I can just feel my brain cells dying. -- ilyas
              \_ !che is pretty anti libertarian. Sorry ilyas, I'll be happy
                 to see self-absorbed people like you die.
                 \_ Almost everybody is self-absorbed including, most assuredly,
                    yourself.  The difference between you and me, is that I am
                    willing to 'live and let live.'  You, on the other hand,
                    wish me dead.  Now lecture me some more about my immorality.
                      -- ilyas
                 \_ Almost everybody is self-absorbed including, most
                    assuredly, yourself.  The difference between you and me,
                    is that I am willing to 'live and let live.'  You, on
                    the other hand, wish me dead.  Now lecture me some more
                    about my immorality. -- ilyas
                    \_ "Almost everyone is self absorbed" is a blatant
                       generalization, and almost certainly false.
                       \_ And calling me self-absorbed without knowing anything
                          about my life is what?  You make me laugh. -- ilyas
                          \_ I wasn't the person that wants you to die.  I
                             want you to live!  The motd would be a less
                             entertaining place without you, ilyas. -pp
                    \_ Can you please explain why there are so many people
                       out there volunteering for nothing in return?
                       \_ Because it makes them feel good.  "But that's not
                          what self-absorbed usually means!" you ll cry.
                          My response: "how did the pp know I was self-absorbed
                          in that sense?" -- ilyas
                    \_ not the pp but I wish you were dead because you can't
                       fucking conform to 80 columns. asshole.
                       \_ You make me proud to call myself a nerd.
           \_ I believe in helping people in both cases dumbass.
              \- "live and let live" when actually "live and 'there is no
                 and'" is just sloganeering. the point is that some people
                 are not "and living" ... without help, the will have a
                 signifiant probability of dying and almost no chance to
                 improve their lot in life [nozick's idea of "life chances"].
                 i believe most of the poverty in this country is not, in
                 jeffrey sachs poignant expression, "the poverty that kills".
                 "live and let live" in the global context [as opposed to
                 say discussions about say social agenda in the us ... drug
                 legalization, assmaster marriage etc] is like saying "i
                 believe in equality ... i am happy not giving medicine to
                 the sick *and* the well". see e.g. A. K. Sen "equallity of
                 what" essay/sppech.
                 what" essay/speech. maybe you can change you slogan to
                 "live and whatever".
                 \_ Partha you don't strike me as particularly dumb, but when
                    it comes to libertarian stuff it's like most of your brain
                    just shuts off.  'Live and let live' is about applications
                    of state power, not a statement about how one ought to live
                    one's life morally.  -- ilyas
                    \_ It warms the cockles of my heart to know that somewhere
                       a taxpayer is being forced at gunpoint to pay for
                       ilyas to write these sentences for us all to see.
                       \_ See, Eli, you don't understand selfish behavior.
                          The libertarian answer to a non-libertarian society
                          is to game it for all it's worth while pointing
                          and laughing.  -- ilyas
                    \- i dont think that is true. i just dont fall for the
                       artificial boundaries libertarians of moderate
                       sophistication draw. first of all, a lot of these
                       people will change their tune when they need the help
                       [orange county bail out] and there really diffcult
                       problems of "too big to fail" [what is the liberaltarian
                       answer to LTCM?]. this thread began with the idea of
                       resource allocation not political liberty, so i think
                       my continuing to think in that mode is not unreasonable.
                       i'm actually fairly libertarian when it comes to
                       people playing on a level playing field except
                       one has to distinguish between "if i were king"
                       and "what do we do now" scenarios that take the
                       the status quo as a given [like you can be opposed
                       to the iraq war yet feel we cant leave now].
                       it may be an interesting academic discussion whether
                       something like federal deposit insurance is a good
                       or bad thing from a libertarian perspective, but i
                       think the libertaian perspective has little to say
                       about what to do about the hundreds of thousands of
                       people dying of malaria. i dont really care if you
                       want to throw terms like "state power" around ...
                       when discussing charity, those are the types of
                       questions that concerns me, not cancer research
                       or school vouchers etc. anyway, i was not making
                       abscract ethical statements like "do not lie" but
                       my conception of "distributive justice".
                       \_ Artificial boundaries my ass.  Do you fall for
                          artificial boundaries between moderate socialists
                          and communists?  Why are libertarians so different
                          all of a sudden?  If voluntary charity concerns you,
                          libertarians have nothing to say about it (not being
                          moral philosophers).  Any other kind of charity falls
                          under the rubric of 'state power.' -- ilyas
                          \- i am not defending socialism, communism, anachists
                             trostskiites, marxists, democrats xtian fruitcakes
                             randroids, bolshvicks, mamuluks, baski bazouks or
                             any other group in particular. there are a couple
                             smart people i list [including the leading light
                             of smart libertarians, nozick]. i am criticizing
                             libertairians here because they are the "live
                             and let live" party. if you want to have a thread
                             on environmental legislation ot affirmative
                             action or regulation of barbers or hollywood's
                             role in diverting $ to pet medical projects
                             i would probably attack some non-libertarian
                             group. i have said before a lot of liberals
                             operate with the assumetion "poor people are
                             stupid" and get defensive when you call them on
                             it. i think they shoudl acknowledge that as an
                             operating assumeption but they cant have it both
                             ways. libertarianism may have more theoretical
                             parsimony but has some big empirical problems.
                             for example if state A > B it not not necessarily
                             true that C "near" A is better than A. see e.g.
                             Cancun Fuck You. for the record, i think
                             televanglists are worse than libertarians.
                             BTW, are you controled in part by Sander Greenland
                             in addition to Judah Pearl? --psb
                             \_ While I am sure you have some choice words to
                                say about certain Christians (perhaps on wall)
                                all I see from you on the motd is libertarian
                                bashing.  Libertarians come across as your
                                favorite political punching bag for some reason,
                                which I find odd because they, as a group, are
                                responsible for none of the things you find
                                annoying (parasite CEOs, etc).  In fact, as a
                                party they are responsible for next to nothing,
                                good or ill.  Why do you care suddenly about
                                my Sith Lords?  I sat in on Greenland's class,
                                and found him annoying.  I couldn't exactly
                                figure out why.  It's 'Judea' btw. -- ilyas
                                \- when i go to parties with communists in
                                   berkeley, then i attack them. i didnt
                                   realize i had to give equal time to who i
                                   "bash" on the wall/motd. maybe you can
                                   search the wall logs/kchang logs for my
                                   comments on ALGOR and BILLARY. it's not
                                   my fault hillary is no longer public enemy
                                   number one. did sander show you his large
                                   telescope?
                                   \_ You know, if he offered to show me his
                                      large telescope, I don't think I would
                                      have taken him up on it.  Do you collect
                                      smart people you know like trophies?
                                      You know, collecting things is the
                                      economic prism through which a
                                      'merchant soul' (Plato) views acquisition
                                      of knowledge. -- ilyas
                                      \- i know ander via the person who was
                                      \- i met sander via the person who was
                                      \- i know sander via the person who was
                                         hiding in the closet in a previous
                                         motd post. i think his house
                                         used to be owned by a sex cult or some
                                      \- i met sander via the chick who was
                                         hidining in the closet in a previous
                                         motd post/wall. i think his house
                                         use to be owned by a sex cult or some
                                         thing like that. that is where he
                                         keeps his large telescope. he also
                                         has a large skaeboard, which i thought
                                         was sort of pecular. hey ididnt know
                                         according to JP terry speed was
                                         involved in the OJ trial.
                          libertarians have nothing to say about it.  Any
                          other kind of charity falls under the rubrik of
                          'state power.' -- ilyas
                                figure out why. -- ilyas
                                         keeps his large telescope.
                                         involved in the OF trial.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39393 Activity:low
8/31    20 Oil Rigs Missing in Gulf of Mexico.  Do I hear an economy
        deflating somewhere?
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050831/pl_afp/usweatheroilgulfrigs_050831213716
        \_ Not for guys who build and repair oil rigs.
           \_ excellent point.  Invest in these companies.
        \_ why such glee at the idea the us economy might tank?
           \_ I'm not the pp, but I'm happy the economy's going to deflate.
              Why? Because I'm a big believer in meritocracy, where hard
              honest working should in fact get more rewards than lazy
              people or people who simply got lucky. Right now, the
              economy is run on the Capitalist Monarchy principle. People
              who own investment houses, gobble up land that many others
              need and therefore become extremely wealthy, while those
              that didn't have much to begin with, continue to owe. Don't
              get me wrong, my father is turning 65 and he is about to hand
              me 2 rental properties worth well over millions and I should
              be happy about it. But I feel conflicted, because I didn't do
              anything to EARN IT. I feel like I cheated meritocracy, big
              time. I hope the crazy housing market stabilizes to give
              everyone an equal and honest opportunity to make money.
              \_ 1) Who told you this was a meritocracy?  No country or
                 culture has ever been what you desire.  2) Why do you think
                 that an economic collapse would somehow magically lead to
                 your never-before-seen meritocracy?  Maybe you want total
                 anarchy where "merit = force"?  You seem conflicted and
                 guilt ridden at being the child of wealthy people.  You don't
                 have to accept it.  You can donate it if you feel that
                 strongly about it.  Why should other people suffer because
                 you feel guilty that you have rich parents?  Isn't that
                 rather selfish?
              \_ Guess who the deflating economy is going to hurt the most?
                 But don't worry, I am sure forcing every rich person in the
                 US to pay Scandinavian taxes will make you feel less guilty.
                   -- ilyas
                   \- i'll be happy with criminal CEOs being assmastered in
                      jail. LIVE AND LET LIVE.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:39394 Activity:nil
8/31    Google announces Google Purge:
        http://csua.org/u/d7t
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Transportation/Car] UID:39400 Activity:nil
8/31    Exactly how deregulated is the gasoline industry? In the light of
        less gas due to Katrina, isn't it possible that they pull an Enron?
        \_ Why? There is no need to fake a crisis.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39401 Activity:nil
8/31    http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/8/31/233427.shtml
        Dems blaming Bush for Katrina.
        \_ In other news, statue of elvis found on Mars!
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39402 Activity:nil
8/31    Yay humanity
        http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1174992&forum_id=26
        \_ Where are the National Guards to protect the people? This is sad.
           Orlean libertarians everywhere, helping themselves. Shame. Shame.
           \- in fairness, these arent libertarians. although in extra
              fairness, most libertarians i've met arent libertarians either.
           \_ NO libertarians are the ones most likely to have guns, a working
              generator and food/water storage and least in need of help.
2017/09/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/25    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:August:31 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>