Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:August:24 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ
http://csua.com/feed/
2005/8/24-25 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:39238 Activity:low
8/24    New pool player looking to buy a "decent" cue in the south bay.  Those
        at Copeland sell for about $10 to $40.  Have no idea if they are
        "decent".  Recommendations of places to buy a "decent" cue would be
        greatly appreciated.  Best if they have some knowledgable staffs to
        help me select the right one.
        \_ dont buy that crap from those sporting goods stores..
           search web for viking, meucci, etc..
           \_ This is good advice.  Go to a specialty pool/billiards store,
              not a general sporting goods store.  Going to copeland's for a
              pool cue is like going to McDonald's for fine french
              cuisine. -mice
        \_ I suppose it depends on your definition of 'decent' and what your
           budget is.  I spent $250 on an 18 Oz. meucci (a very light cue)
           about 4 or 5 years ago.  I'm still using it, and it's a fun cue
           to play with -- the weight and balance are excellent, and it
           doesn't look like a cheap POS.  Of course, I've had my ass handed
           to me by people playing with whatever is at the pool hall, so
           ultimately the equipment isn't likely to affect your game unless
           you're really good or it's *really* bad.  Check out:
           http://www.hawleys.com/main.htm
           They have a great selection and their staff is really helpful
           and responsive.  Shoot me an email if you ever want to go shoot
           a table or two, or just want to chat more at length.   -mice
        \_ it is not going to make any difference what so ever.  Don't
           waste your money unless you get a discounted rate.
2005/8/24-25 [Computer/Theory] UID:39243 Activity:high
8/24    Computational Geometry question: I have a bunch of points which I
        use to generate a tiling of unit sqaure by Delaunay triangulation.
        Given an arbitrary point in the unit square, I want to determine which
        triangle the point is in. Does this problem have a name? I'm trying
        to find see what algorithms are out there for doing this, but my
        Google fu is weak. I'd appreciate any tips/links.
        By the way, go Republicans! We kick ass!                -jblack
       \_ Yes, the problem is called 'point location.'  You can adopt
          binary search for this problem without much difficulty.  You can
          also use fast randomized algorithms for this problem, see:
          http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cke96fast.html -- ilyas
          \_ Yeah, binary search was my intuition, I just wanted to confirm
             that. Thanks for the info / link. - op
        \_ Without actually computing the triangulation?
        \_ jblack, you're still on probation. I'm letting you post this
           time, since you signed your name.
        \_ Let me get this straight. First you harrass us by constantly
           posting freeper crap, hiding URL by using IPs, mass posting,
           insulting and provoking liberals, hiding your identity, so on and
           so forth even though we asked you to stop, and then you have the
           nerve to come back to us and ask for help? HELLO??? Either you're
           an autistic socially inept retard, or you simply need help.
           SERIOUS help, from a good psychiatric institution.
           \_ While I can certainly appreciate your zeal, I'd rather not be
              included in your inclusive 'we' and 'us'.  While I don't
              agree with jblack's politics, he has a right to speak his
              agree with danh's politics, he has a right to speak his
              peace.  On the other hand, I'm absolutely not going to back
              up anyone that espouses a philosophy of censorship, and would
              rather not be implicitly or explicitly represented by anyone
              that does.                                            -mice
           \_ I find it amusing that you're not signing your name. -emarkp
           \_ also, you've been trolled.
           \_ Dude, you're a damn retard. Do you seriously not see the
              irony here? You're the one looking unstable.
              \_ Pot. Kettle. Etc.
                 \_ Haha.  This response is truly stupid.
                    \_ This whole thread is stupid.
                       \_ This whole motd is stupid.
                          \_ Stupid is as stupid does.
2005/8/24-25 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39244 Activity:moderate
8/24    Global Warming is officially irreversible.
        \_ idiot.  2nd law of thermodynamics ; it'll cool down eventually.
           \_ sure, in 20000 yrs or so.
           \_ Will it be before or after Venus cools down?
        \_ Good. Now I won't have to listen to people whine about it.
        \_ url?
        \_ Why?
2005/8/24-25 [Consumer/Shipping] UID:39245 Activity:nil
8/24   Crap.  My FedEx shipment which was supposed to be delivered tomorrow
       when I home is now on the truck for delivery today.  Is there any way
       I can tell them "come back tomorrow"?
        \_ Is it something that you'll have to sign for? or will they drop?

Global Warming is officially irreversible.
        \_ idiot.  2nd law of thermodynamics ; it'll cool down eventually.
           \_ sure, in 20000 yrs or so.
        \_ If it's on the truck probably not. They should automatically make
           another delivery attempt tomorrow, though. You can also call them
           and have them hold it for you to pick up tomorrow if you choose.
        \_ http://FedEx.com lets you specify the delivery options/date for some pkgs.
2005/8/24-25 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Women] UID:39246 Activity:kinda low
8/24    Doctor being reviewed for telling fat woman she's obsese:
        http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=59407
        \_ if someone told her she was fat early on, maybe she wouldn't
        be obese now...
        \_ "My doctor told me I was fat. I said I wanted a second
            opinion. He said, 'OK, you're ugly, too.'" - Henny Youngman
        \_ This is sick. Good luck to that fat ass in finding another doctor.
           What the fuck can she possibly be thinking. I doubt there is a
           single person (other than her hired lawyer) who'll side with her.
            \_ The fat doctor will side with her.
                \_ No doctor will side with her.
2005/8/24-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:39247 Activity:low
8/24    I'm usually the one deleting jblack's posts but this time I didn't
        do it. Someone else beat me to it. Justin Black, I guess you've
        exhausted our kindness and patience. I have nothing more to say
        except to wish you luck finding conservative motds somewhere else.
        You're free to post your Delaunay triangulation question on the
        Freeper site since you're such a loyal member. Take care.
        \_ Um who declared the soda motd conservative or liberal, exactly?
        \_ Woah there Putin.  Let's try to back of the censorship a bit there.
           Question restored.
           \_ When the revolution comes people who don't know what the word
              censorship means will be the first against the wall.
              \_ My friend, the revolution has already begun and to speak
                 ill of it is unpatriotic and borders on treason.
              \_ Since soda is a government resource, being selectively
                 denied use of it is a form of censorship. Especially
                 if the one doing the deleting is a government employee.
                 \_ This argument is so breathtakingly bad, it must be
                    satire.  I don't support censorship of jblack, but come
                    on...By this logic, any student denied entry to Berkeley
                    is having his rights taken away, since it is a government
                    resource he is being denied access to.
        \_ Hey, does someone want to figure out who is doing that, so I can
           laugh at them? -- ilyas
        \_ Uh, I'm not sure exactly what happened, but your information
           is mistaken -- I, not Justin Black, posted the original question.
           Sorry, if I'd realized that the identity of the poster was so
           important, I'd have signed the post.  - ciyer
2005/8/24 [Computer/HW/Printer] UID:39248 Activity:nil
8/24    Is there something like a firmware update for a HP LaserJet 4M
        printer with an internal card ethernet JetDirect print server?
2005/8/24-25 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:39249 Activity:nil
8/24    What's the difference between Alcohol 1.9.5.2802 and 1.9.5.3105?
        \_ 0.0.0.303, obviously.
        \_ lazy mofo: http://www.videohelp.com/tools?changelog=144
           \_ THANK YOU. HOW did you get this help? Like, what keywords
              in Google did you type to get to this page? Teach me how
              to fish so I don't have to keep asking for it. Thanks.
              \_ I'm not the grandparent poster, but searching Google for
                 "alcohol 120% changelog" returns that as the first result.
              \_ http://videohelp.com is one of the best sites around for anything
                 codec-related as well, just as a note.  -John
2005/8/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39250 Activity:low
8/24    Bush approval rating at 36%. Schweet.
        http://americanresearchgroup.com/economy
        \_ what does it matter?  he is free to fuck up the world
        until the next guy gets elected.
        \_ Stop it! You're making Mr. Justin Black angry! Don't you realize
           how expensive psychiatric therapy is? You guys are cruel.
        \_ link:csua.org/u/d50 (graph with many polls)
           You can compare the AmResGp data with other data.  The recent
           Harris data point backs it up a little bit.
        \_ why does this matter?  Its not like we can chose to not reelect him.
           \_ It shows that, for whatever reason, the American people are
              finally rejecting the Project for a New American Century,
              which gives hope for the future.  -tom
              \_ No, actually, all it shows is that Bush is not popular right
                 now.  The rest is all in your head. -- ilyas
                 \_ His war is also not popular.
                        \_ But at least he's not letting gays get married!
                           \_ Priorities, man, priorities.
2005/8/24-25 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39251 Activity:moderate
8/24    Why can't we burn trash to power turbines which give us electricity?
        (Selected trash)
        \_ It's done now.  Google "waste to energy" or "trash to energy".
        \_ Because it doesn't involve invading another country.
        \_ Heard of "biomass"?
           \_ good idea:
                http://www.nrel.gov/clean_energy/bioenergy.html
        \_ I believe in the future we will be mining garbage dumps ... If we
           burn it all up we can't mine it.
           \_ Mining them for what?  Minerals?   We burn it all up, those
             minerals will be in the ash...
              \_ Actually some are already being "mined" for methane.
              \_ Mined for the materials we will have run out of, presumably.
        \_ Pollution?
        \_ Mr. Fusion won't be invented for another 100 years.
2005/8/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39252 Activity:high
8/24    "You know I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if
        he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really
        ought to go ahead and do it. ... We have the ability to take him out,
        and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability."
                -Pat Robertson, previously
        "I didn't say 'assassination.' I said our special forces should 'take
        him out'. And 'take him out' could be a number of things including
        kidnapping. ... I was misinterpreted ..."
                -Pat Robertson, yesterday
        "Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for that
        statement."
                -Pat Robertson, today
        \_ How do you apologize for being a total lunatic?
        \_ Oh and I like it how figures like Robertson, Rumsfeld will deny
           saying X when shown direct VIDEO proof of them saying X and think
           that's just fine.
           \_ For posterity, which Rumsfeld quote?  Are you talking about
              the WMDs east/west/south/north of Baghdad/Tikrit quote?
              Did you mean Cheney instead?
              \_ http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/04/03/ana04004.html
        \_ An extremist religious figure preaching violence!  What's that?  He's
           an American citizen and free to say what he likes?  Wow, how the
           a private citizen and free to say what he likes?  Wow, how the
           tunes vary.
           \_ He has the freedom of speech to advocate murder, but it's a shame
              more moderate leaders in his sect don't condemn him for it.
              \_ That freedom is going away in the UK.
        \_ While I'm no apologist for Robertson, I'd like to see the sentences
           preceding the "it".  People tend to be a bit sloppy about
           antecedents, especially in spoken English.
           \_ Corrected.  I took the original quote from http://cnn.com, guess they
              cut out the "You know" part in the text.  Watch video here:
              http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html
              If you ask me on the whole it still means the same thing --
              his most recent statement spells it out pretty much.
              Also, http://cnn.com should not have cut that part out. -op
              \_ Still not enough context.  I think he was talking about
                 assassination but I'd like to see the entire discussion, not
                 just that clip.
                 \_ For the sake of argument, what would sufficiently qualify
                    the posted statements for you?
                    Are you just interested in what he was talking about,
                    or are you really looking for some "out" for him?
                    \_ Well, ideally the entire conversation up to those
                       comments would be best.  I'm not looking for an "out".
                       I've just seen enough stuff taken out of context to be
                       skeptical of any clip less than complete.
                       \_ The biggest out for Robertson would be pointing out
                          that if he said "Assassinate Saddam!  Save money!
                          FREEDOM!!" pre-invasion, people who complained would
                          have been beaten down as Saddam-lovers.
                          Theoretically Robertson could have been talking about
                          how similar Chavez was like to Saddam (torture, WMDs,
                          he would destroy the U.S. if given the chance, etc.)
                          before talking about killing him.
                          Just an analysis by me, not statements of fact.
                          \_ I'm not interested in an "out".  I'm interested in
                             figuring out precisely what he was saying.
                             \_ Why? Why are people supposed to pay attention
                                to what this guy says? Who the fuck is he?
                                \_ He's someone who meets with your president
                                   on a semi-regular basis to discuss policy
                                   and politics.
        \_ Maybe we should concentrate on 'taking out' bin Laden. Do we
           have that ability?
        \_ Video of the statement: http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006
           \_ Longer than the http://cnn.com clip, but still incomplete.  It could be
              interpreted to be saying "okay, assassination is off the table,
              but we should do anything else to get him out of power."  I'd
              still need to see the whole video.
              \_ It could be interpreted that way, but you're really stretching
                 now.  I think it's pretty damn obvious what he is saying.
                 \_ Yes, especially when he releases a statement saying:
                    "Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize
                    for that statement."
                    \_ Which strongly suggests he didn't mean assassination, or
                       he wouldn't backpedal from it.  He makes crazy
                       statements all the time and doesn't back off from them.
                       \_ Uh...
        \_ Okay, here's Robertson's official press release with the apology
           http://www.patrobertson.com/pressreleases/hugochavez.asp
           You tell me what he REALLY meant.
           \_ Well okay then.  So he clearly says that he said we should
              assassinate him, and has now apologized.  That clears it up for
              me.
2005/8/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:39253 Activity:very high
8/24    We should go back through the motd archives and dig up all the
        arguments that Ah-nold was going to be above corruption:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050824/ts_latimes/nonprofitscloakdonorstogovernor
        \_ Shrug.  I voted for Ah-nold because (a) Davis deserved punishment,
           and (b) his wife spoke up for him after people pointed out he was
           a groper.
           I didn't vote for him because I thought he would be a great
           governor, or do a better job than Davis.
           I /am/ going to vote him out next election, because purpose (a) has
           already been served.
           \_ What, people don't like Arnold, I didn't vote for him and I think
              he has done WAY better than any reasonable expection. -phuqm
           \_ I still have not heard anyone say why Davis 'deserved punishment'
              \_ He was an idiot who sold the state out to his pet
                 campaign donors, like Edison. He sat on his hands and
                                        \_ntm Ellison
                 did nothing as the power crises escalated.
                 \_ Davis didn't sign deregualation..  He pushed for long
                    term contracts to staunch the bleeding.  Then when the
                    causes became more clear he went to court to try and get
                    those contracts renegotiated.
                 \_ I thought selling the state out was done by Pete Wilson
                    and the legislature BEFORE Davis became governor.
              \_ Because he allowed car registration fees to go back to what
                 they were before the brief CA tax surplus years.
              \_ http://csua.com/?entry=10325
                 See second response.  Eh, to answer your question, it was
                 mainly the hugeness of the budget deficit combined with the
                 hiding of it until the last moment.  Energy brokers and
                 special interests too, as someone else wrote.
              \_ CA government is fucked anyway. Governors can't fix it.
                http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=16350
        \_ I voted for McClintock becuase Arnold was a scumbag groper and
           wasn't really conservative.  I'm disappointed that he's been taking
           money in hand over fist considering his promises.  He hasn't gotten
           my vote and won't in the foreseeable future.
        \_ Did anyone on the motd actually make that argument?  On the
           other hand, if Arnold can get that Gerrymandering law passd,
           he's my hero.
           \_ He wouldn't be my hero, per se, but it would be a really great
              thing if that were passed, I agree.
              \_ How do you figure?
                 \_ I went with this editorial
                    http://csua.org/u/d58 (Wash Post)
                    \_ An editorial which presumes corruption.  What corruption
                       can you point to in the process?  The "no seats changed
                       hands" argument doesn't hold water without evidence
                       \_ "replace the state's corrupt system for drawing state
                          and federal legislative districts with a cleaner one
                          in which a panel of retired judges -- rather than
                          the very politicians who have to run for office --
                          would draw lines without regard for protecting
                          incumbents"
                          I believe they're saying they just don't like
                          politicians doing the districting, even if they were
                          benevolent politicians.  You could say we have a
                          system that invites corruption, if it wasn't already
                          present.
           \_ Can anyone point to a arguments _against_ this?
              \_ If it didn't call for an immediate redistricting, I MIGHT
                 support it.  If it were to pass, whatever plan they decided
                 on would take effect without voter approval for the 2006
                 elections.  Ludicrous.
                 \_ What's ludicrous is Republicans openly being against it
                    because it might be unfavorable to them right now. Way
                    to think about justice and the future there boys. Anyone
                    making that kind of comment publically should be
                    automatically blacklisted for reelection.
                    \_ What kind of comment?
                 \_ Even given that it might take effect immediately, I
                    think that's better than the situation we have now.
                    \_ Then you're an idiot.
                       \_ Cram it with walnuts, ugly. Our legislature is
                          dismal. And our lines have been drawn such that in
                          the last election not a single seat changed parties.
                          We have a horribly unresponsive and unrepresentative
                          democracy. I'm willing to put up with a lot to make
                          it more responsive and representative.
                          \_ This is as foolish as the more idiotic arguments
                             for term limits.  Show me where on the map they
                             drew broken, unreasonable lines.  For comparison
                             look at TX's current map.  If you want a more
                             responsive democracy, find some way to get the
                             voters to actually get interested.
              \_ Are you asking if there is anyone who is pro-gerrymandering?
                 \_ Anyone who believes unelected judges are slimier than
                    elected officials.  I think only elected officials believe
                    this and then never with a straight face.
                 \_ Tom DeLay is pro-gerrymandering. At least when it creates
                    more GOP seats.
                 \_ The whole gerrymandering debate is overblown; in the
                    states which have judges draw up the districts, no
                    seats changed hands in the 2004 elections.  It just won't
                    \_ Um, the 2000 map was judge-drawn, the 2003 map was
                       Republican-drawn. R's gained from their own map.
                    make that much difference.  -tom
                    \_ In TX, R's gained 6 seats from a judge-drawn map
                       \_ No, you have it backwards. When they went from
                          a judge drawn map, to the DeLay Gerrymandered one,
                          they gained six seats:
                http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040106-115653-7008r.htm
                          http://csua.org/u/d56 (Wash Times)
                          \_ "We will look at an unaccountable, arrogant,
                             out-of-control judiciary that thumbed their nose
                             at Congress and the president...The time will
                             come for the men responsible for this to answer
                             for their behavior."  T. Delay
                          \_ Oop.  You're right.  My brain is tired.
                \_ BTW, has anyone done research on algorithmic ways of
                   redistricting that involve as little human input as
                   possible?
        \_ Consider the source, the LA-Times hates Arnold and has been, and
           continues on a quest to make him look bad and keep him
           out of office.  -ax
           \_ Fuck Arnold and his quest to reduce the quality of life
              in California via tax reduction, infrastructure quality
              reduction, and Republicanism.
2005/8/24-25 [Uncategorized] UID:39254 Activity:kinda low
8/24    R.I.P Tom Robinson
        \_ who's Tom Robinson?
           \_ To Kill a Mockingbird (Brock Peters)
2005/8/24-25 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:39255 Activity:nil
8/24    Anyone have any sites with recommendations for ideal/max operating
        temperatures for "average" PCs?  I have a server with a bunch of
        SATA drives (8x), a PIV-1.7 and two 120mm fans (plus the ones on the
        PSU); the case temp gauge indicates 35-37 deg. C at the hottest
        spots, and I can't get over the sneaking suspicion that the PSU
        is somehow unhappily hot.  -John
2005/8/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39256 Activity:very high
8/24    Sheehan refers to terrorists in Iraq as "Freedom Fighters" to a CBS
        reporter.  Not reported in the news anywhere.
        \_ I am sorry, but those fighters in Iraq are freedom fighters.
           They are trying to end US occupation and remove puppet
           government set up by US.  Read UN's charter on self-determination
           if you are bored.
           \_ I'm sure Iraqis beleive they'll have freedom when the
              insurgents have power. Just as I'm sure all the insurgents
              are Iraqis. With people like you, who needs enemies?
        \_ They freed her son, so what is she bitching about?
        \_ Because she couldn't have misspoke.  Only Robertson, Rumsfeld,
           Cheney, and Bush can do that
           \_ You're comparing a housewife with the secretary of defense, the
              president, the vice president, and a very prominent religious
              leader.
              \_ No, the people getting in a flurry over a comment she made
                 in one of dozens of interviews over the last month are
                 forcing the comparison.
        \_ They can't be freedom fighters. Bush hasn't sold weapons to any
           nation sworn to destroy the US in order to fund them yet. But it
           is a neat idea.
           \_ Freedom fighters don't blow up little children getting candy from
              US soldiers.
              \_ As opposed to just killing children anonymously via air
                 strikes like the US? Ooo.. look at the pretty yellow box.
                 Care package or cluster bomb? Let's find out!
                 \_ If you don't understand the difference between
                    intentionally targeting children and collateral damage,
                    you're a waste of skin.
                    \_ "Iraqi Body Count" stated that civilian death due to
                        US Air raid and other military activites is four times
                        of those who died in suicide bomber.  Collateral
                        damage or not, people hold US for it.  If your family
                        members are accidently killed by foreign occupation
                        force, you will pick up arm and fight too, regardless
                        rather the death was intentional or not.
                        \_ And you're still totally missing the point; if you
                           went to war to prevent other peoples' families from
                           being blown up, intentionally or not, you wouldn't
                           go blow up children intentionally.  Dig?  -John
                           \_ sucide bombers don't blow up childrens
                              intentionally neither. These
                              bombings are not senseless violence. Targets
                              was select to serve specific purpose to undermine
                              US military/political effort.  You can blame
                              resistant for the failure of try to minimize
                              civilian casuaties, but that is a completely
                              story than trying to paint them as someone
                              who is stupid enough to waste precious military
                              resources on blowing childrens up.  Mind you,
                              that while you see *PLENTY* of dead bodies
                              due to Iraqi resistance, you don't see *ANY* of
                              of twenty-thousands plus civilian death on
                              CNN/BBC.
                    \_ Ah, intellectually I do, but ask the parent of a dead
                       child to draw the line and you'll see it is not so fine.
                          \_ Yet you present a case where you assume that the
                             children were the target, not the US soldiers.
                             How does that fit in with your "collateral damage"
                             POV and as a reflection of your own character?
                       \_ But the measure of the character of those responsible
                          isn't whether the death occurred, but whether it was
                          intentional, negligent, or whether efforts were made
                          to avoid it.
                          \_ Yet you present a case where you assume that the
                             children were the target, not the US soldiers.
                             How does that fit in with your "collateral damage"
                             POV and as a reflection of your own character?
                             \_ The children were all around the soldiers.  I
                                doubt we would bomb a target if it were clear
                                there were tons of innocents around.
                                \_ you doubt, but two NGO's finding stated
                                   the contrary.  75% of civilian death
                                   is due to US military activities.
                                \_ Right, like Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima...
                                   \_ You do realize there's a difference
                                      between tactical and strategic, right?
                                      \_ Your example is flawed in that it is
                                         single incident. One person, one bomb,
                                         dozens of victims. His load is shot.
                                         If the US kills innocents on a less
                                         spetacular level, but more of them,
                                         does that make it more moral? If each
                                         soldier kills only one innocent, is
                                         that better than one man killing many?
                                         that better than one man killing
                                         many?
                                         \_ Well, no -- it's the difference b/t
                                            the commander in chief making the
                                            call, and the guy pulling the
                                            trigger making the call, ie,
                                            strategic vs tactical.
                                            strategic vs tactical.  I'm not
                                            making a moral rationalization,
                                            I'm saying the Hiroshima guy is
                                            making an illogical comparison
                                            at least partly based on an
                                            emotional appeal.
                                      That this whole conversation is more at
                                      tactical level...?
                                      \_ So it is better to be a mass murderer
                                         than to kill a few???
                                         \_ No, I'm saying that comparing with
                                            Hiroshima is a red herring in this
                                            context.
                                            context because the decision
                                            making apparatus (I sincerely hope)
                                            was wildly different.
                                      \_ My Lai. Very tactical.
                                         \_ my grind is that most people
                                            involved in My Lai gotten away
                                            with murder.  Calley only got
                                            slap on the wrist.
                                         \_ My Lai was a calamity and a crime.
                                            Stop taking the intellectual
                                            coward's route of saying "well they
                                            did it, so it's OK if we do."  That
                                            is fucking stupid.  Dresden was
                                            probably wrong _in restrospect_.
                                            Idiot.  -John
                                         \_ Yah, that's a good point.  That
                                            was at least partly the result
                                            of what amounts to strategic
                                            policy in vietnam (free fire
                                            zones, etc).  Just as a side note,
                                            I don't condone or see anything
                                      \_ Your example is flawed in that it is
                                         single incident. One person, one bomb,
                                         dozens of victims. His load is shot.
                                         If the US kills innocents on a less
                                         spetacular level, but more of them,
                                         does that make it more moral? If each
                                         soldier kills only one innocent, is
                                         that better than one man killing many?
                                         \_ Well, no -- it's the difference b/t
                                            the commander in chief making the
                                            call, and the guy pulling the
                                            trigger making the call, ie,
                                            strategic vs tactical.
                                            justifiable in the killing of
                                            civilians -- I wasn't a supporter
                                            of GWII.  It's abhorrent when
                                            'collateral casualties' become
                                            part of an 'equation' relating
                                            human lives to some politician's
                                            notion of acceptable or cost-
                                            effective or something.
                                            notion of cost-effective.
              \_ Do you think they were aiming for the kids or the soldiers?
                 Is the US aiming for the kids or the terrorists? Whee!
              \_ Our freedom fighters flew jetliners into the World Trade
                 Center.
                 \_ Yes, it was Iraqi freedom fighters that are to blame for
                    the September 11th attack. Hmm...Good Kool-aid.
                        \_ Read it again with your brain turned on.  Think
                           "Afghanistan"
        \_ Full quote for those interested
           http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/8/24/90434.shtml
           I guess it will mean different things to different people.
           I mean, if you asked Cindy Sheehan:  "What did you mean by
                                            justifiable in the killing of
                                            civilians -- I wasn't a supporter
                                            of GWII.  It's abhorrent when
                                            'collateral casualties' become
                                            part of an 'equation' relating
                                            human lives to some politician's
                                            notion of cost-effective.
           'freedom fighters entering Iraq'?", that would clarify things a lot.
           Currently you have people interpreting her quote to mean that she
           approves of suicide bombings in Iraq.
        \_ That sounds like she was just instinctively spouting back one too
           many government-endorsed euphemisms (in previous eras).
           \_ Or intentionally using Reagan's term for the Afghani fighters
              we were supporting against the Russians (that later became
              the Taliban).  -tom
           \_ I'd go with "poor choice of words" without any further
              explanation from her.
        \_ Reagan called the Contras, who targeted civilians, Freedom
           Fighters. So she was just using it in tribute to him.
2005/8/24-25 [Uncategorized] UID:39257 Activity:nil
8/24    Obviously Rove engineered Sheehan's protest, just to get himself off
        the front page.
        \_ OBVIOUSLY Rove gave Sheehan's mom a stroke, and hoped she would
           ignore her.  r00l!
2005/8/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:39258 Activity:nil
8/24    See, Dubya's administration isn't totally fucking things up:
        "Al-Banna has been accused of carrying out one of Iraq's deadliest
        suicide bombing ... the Jordanian government and al-Banna's family said
        he carried out a different suicide bombing in Iraq ... The Homeland
        Security memo ... said al-Banna was carrying a valid Jordanian passport
        and valid work visa [when he previously tried to enter the U.S. at
        Chicago O'Hare]. But the Customs agents believed the passport was
        falsified, and ultimately rejected al-Banna's entry after secondary
        security screening and questioning ..."
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/suspicious.traveler.ap/index.html
2005/8/24-25 [Uncategorized] UID:39259 Activity:nil
8/24    I guess the insurgents haven't figured out how to use bittorrent yet.
        WHEW!           http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9067891/site/newsweek
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:August:24 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>