Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:August:22 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/8/22-24 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39209 Activity:kinda low
8/22    Interesting and rather scary article about Saudi oil production in
        the Sunday NY Times Magazine:
        \. why is it that people like Exxon CEO keep saying that oil prices
           are way too high and will come down?  is it because they don't
           want alternate enery sources to be developed, or have enery
           policies aimed at reducing demand implemented, while they
           continue to make tons of money?
           \_ If I were the oil companies, I'd have big investments in
              oil alternatives.  Big.  There's nothing stopping them from
              using their current huge profits to ensure their complete
              dominance of the energy market for decades to come, and long
              after oil is gone.  They just have to update themselves....
        \_  What happens when exponentially increasing demand meets
            arithmetically increasing supply?  We're gonna find out.
            And this just shows that planned economies don't work.
            China's consuming more and more oil....
            \_ most of world's economies are planned, including Japan
            \_ We're guzzling more oil too, China's %tage increase is just
               more ... Are we consuming more from year to year than China?
               Our imports were 2001: 11.8 mb/d, 2002: 11.5 2003: 12.2
               2004: 13.1.  Since China's oil imports are 2.91 mb/day in
               2004, and growing by about 1 mb/d (couldn't find year/year
               list for China) it looks like our "unplanned" economy is
               responsible for just as much scarcity.
                \_ My point is that the unplanned economies are stupidly
                   using oil, and oil's going to get tight in supply
                   compared to demand.  Why, then, are "intelligently planned"
                   economies ramping up their use of oil?  It's not just
                   stupid market forces, it's stupid planning.  What's
                   their excuse?
            \_ The US uses 100X as much oil per person than China. It seems
               like it is the unplanned economies that are the problem.
               \_ Apples to oranges.  Drop the 1.3b people in China using
                  near zero oil and compare the non-poverty part of China to
                  the US and see what the numbers look like.  The vast majority
                  of China is essentially cut off from the rest of the world
                  and only serves to create bogus statistical per capita
                  \_ If you just add up the people in the industrialized
                     provinces, you get 200M or so people. So China is
                     using 1/10th per capita. Still much less.
                     \_ Did you include the tons of toxic waste and air
                        pollution per capita when you did the oil costs
                        since they're using a lot of coal and wood instead
                        of oil?  How about what they're doing to their rivers
                        and farm lands?  Their production per unit of waste
                        is way too high.  Their inefficiency is stunning.
                        \_ don't forget to add to that the waste they
                           ship from the US to dump in china.
                           \_ no one forgot.  it doesn't add up enough to
                              matter on these scales.  ChiCom troll?  Is that
                              \_ oh yea? what are they using the coal
                                 for?  making things for walmart, and
                                 motorola, and ge, and ford, ... you
                                 whine there's too much pollution when
                                 they use coal, you whine that they are
                                 destroying the ecosystem when they
                                 built the yangtze dam, you whine that
                                 they are driving prices high, and
                                 threatening the US when they try to
                                 buy gasoline.  fucking hypocrite.
                        \_ yea, like you care about their rivers and
                           farm lands.  all you care is they don't use
                           too much oil that oil price rises.
                \_ China uses a lot of coal too.  Can we account for that?
                   Coal probably produces a magnitude more pollution than gas.
                   \_ yea, they tried going to gasoline, but we can't let
                        them buy unocal.
                      \_ Hi Mr. Nonsequiter troll.  No one should have to
                         explain the insanity of selling off an energy
                         resource provider to a hostile competitor.  That's
                         a good way to get triple digit price/barrel.
                         \_ we are talking about oil usage and energy
                            usage, not pollution, so you are the non-
                            sequitur troll.
                         \_ no one should have to explain their oil and
                            energy usage when US is using 10x as much
                            per capita.
        \. why is it that people like Exxon CEO keep saying that oil prices
           are way too high and will come down?  is it because they don't
           want alternate enery sources to be developed, or have enery
           policies aimed at reducing demand implemented, while they
           continue to make tons of money?
           \_ If I were the oil companies, I'd have big investments in
              oil alternatives.  Big.  There's nothing stopping them from
              using their current huge profits to ensure their complete
              dominance of the energy market for decades to come, and long
              after oil is gone.  They just have to update themselves....
                \_ but that may hurt their existing investments.
                   \_ No, it won't.  They'll be completely unable to supply
                      the oil required with all imaginable capacity.  They'll
                      \_ And with that money, they can buy any REAL up and
                         coming technology. Stop thinking of them as oil
                         companies. They are energy companies.
                      get full value on all their existing investments,
                      \_ And with that money, they can buy any REAL up and
                         coming technology. Stop thinking of them as oil
                         companies. They are energy companies.
              \_ They are investing in alternatives, but that doesn't mean
                 they don't want their tax breaks and subsidies for both
                 their "regular" oil business and their minor R&D.. If they
                 keep on saying, high oil prices are just a blip, the less
                 likely Congress and the country will ask for regulation.
2005/8/22-24 [Uncategorized] UID:39210 Activity:nil
8/22    Hey motd, a web devy contractor friend of mine is shortly going to be
        out of work.  Anybody know of any leads that might be worth persuing?
        TIA.     -mice
        \_ Damnit why didn't you ask me this a month ago?
           \_ heh, I'll make sure to consult my magic 8 ball sooner next time.
2005/8/22 [Recreation/Humor] UID:39211 Activity:kinda low
8/20    If I tell a Jewish joke, I'm antisemetic. If I tell a black or
        Mexican joke, I'm a racist. But if I tell a Polish joke, I'm
        a comedian. Why is this even acceptable?
        \_ Actually, no matter what kind of joke you tell, you're a moron. -tom
        \_ Have polish jokes been considered funny any time this last oh say...
           generation?  Hint: no.
           \_ Except for the one about the simple pole in the complex plane.
        \_ I enjoyed Chris Rock's joke in a comedy show about the difference
           between blacks and n*ggers.  I wouldn't call him racist.  -- Asian
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39212 Activity:moderate
8/22    Camry Hybrid will be an I4:
        \_ A V4 would be one of the dumbest engine configuration you
           could think of. It would take the worst of an inline-4 and
           a V6 and put it into one engine.
        \_ A Camry with a 4 cylinder is a slow Camry.
           \_ They should offer it with CVT at least. That'd be cool.
           \_ Not necessarily.  Toyota 0wns hybrid tech.  I bet they can make
              a 4 cyl hybrid that performs as well as the V6 in some aspects.
              (You'll always be able to say "but the V6 does 65 mph -> 85 mph
               better!  Or some such.  In practice, V6 Camrys have great low-end
               torque and only modest high-end, which a hybrid would do a good
               job matching).
        \_ Camry is right. Accord V6 hybrid is a muscle car, which really
           defeats the purpose of hybrids. People who want power, buy
           power cars, and people who want gas saving cars, buy the Prius.
           The Accord Hybrid is a total failure from the marketing
           \_ Hmm. I disagree. I would've never considered a hybrid with
              a hamster motor, but when someone throws a 400 HP V-8 hybrid
              in a sports car or truck I'll be interested. Everyone likes
              to save money on gas if performance is not compromised.
              \_ The gas savings gets eaten by the car cost. And possibly
                 \_ Some people get hybrids because of environmental savings,
                    not money savings.
        \_ enlighten me please.  Is there any V-4 engine out there?  I
           thought most of 4-cylinder engine are inline.
           \_ You're right. There isn't and for good reason. A V-4 would
              be like combining two inline-2 engines which, by themselves,
              are unbalanced. Combine two unbalanced engines together
              orthoganally and you'll have quite a bit of vibration.
              It's an extremely inefficient configuration.
              \_Umm...your mistaken, I have a V4 motorcycle engine that works
                just fine.
              \_ maybe they're gonna use a balance shaft to reduce vibration?
                 \_ That's going to be one giant ass balancer shaft. Generally,
                    car makers aim for the engine config with the minimum
                    vibration without the use of a balancer shaft because
                    that degrades the performance of the engine. Inline-4s
                    are the worst (among production car engines) and V-6s
                    aren't that great either. Inline-6 and boxers are self-
                    balanced which is one of the reasons why BMW and Subaru
                    use these engines.
                    \_ My '96 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L has I-6.
        \_ I can't find where the article says the engine is a V instead of an
           \_ I am a car IDIOT. I know almost NOTHING about cars other than
              the fact that you need to put gas in the gas tank and air in
              the tires. I thought 4 cylinder == v4 b/c the shorthand for #
              of cylinders is was 'v'. Sorry for any confusion. -op
        \_ Yeah, but it has the power of a V1!
           \_ That's Vergeltungswaffe 1 Fi 103 to YOU!
              \_ Fi 103 was the manned version.  I'm not joking--the dude was
                 supposed to bail out.  -John the Nitpicker
                 \_ Fickt nicht mit dem Raketenmensch!
2005/8/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:39213 Activity:nil
8/22    In the Grim Future of Mankind, THERE WILL BE NO PANTS.
        \_ Kind of neat until I realized there are only three entries (not
           much of an argument), two of which are both Peter Chung creations.
           much of an argument), two of which are Peter Chung creations.
        \_ Cool premise, but needs more examples to be truly funny.
        \_ and
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39214 Activity:kinda low
8/22    My year 2006 prediction -- There will be an SUV bubble.
        Housing prices will continue to climb.
        \_ Do you mean: SUV prices will suddenly ascend to ludicious
        \_ Do you mean: SUV prices will suddenly ascend to ludacris
           levels (a bubble) or prices will crash (a bubble burst)?
           \_ I'm Fiddy Cent Beeaatch! <bang> <bang> <bang>
           \_ What's a ludacris level? Is that the level most of those
              pimped out rap mobile Escalades are at?
           \_ The number of SUV sales will go down. GM/Ford/etc keep pumping
              out the same number of SUVs and realize the low demand, and
              start cutting prices drastically during the summer of 2006.
              \_ You think executives don't cut production when sales
                 decline? "GM and Ford have already made clear that their
                 outlook for SUV sales this year isn't bright. Both have
                 cut SUV production plans. (May 2005)"  Although recently
                 sales have rebounded due to large price cuts, but I doubt
                 that will spur large production increases.
                 \_ The past couple of years have shown Detroit to be be not
                    operating very rationally. You'd think executives would
                    cut production when sales decline, but, up until this year,
                    they hadn't. Dealers have been complaining for years about
                    being shipped too many SUVs and larger cars that just sat
                    on their lots unsold. At the same time, buyers have been
                    put on waiting lists to buy hybrids. American car sales
                    came out of the doldrums briefly this year for the first
                    time in a few years as a result of massive price cuts -
                    the so-called "employee discounts" for everybody sales.
                 \_ Since Detroit loses money on almost every vehicle except
                    for SUVs -- how will they survice?
                    \_ Is this a clumsy attempt to change the subject?
        \_ And you're so confident in your prediction, you even fail to sign
           your name!
        \_ my prediction, the aliens who doped us up with Sci Fi films
          will attack us finally
        \_ ludicrous
        \_ lewdicrous
        \_ loodicris
2005/8/22-23 [Health/Disease/General, Recreation/Music] UID:39215 Activity:nil
8/22    RIP, Dr. Bob Moog, an early synthesizer pioneer, his Moog synthesizers
        made famous by Wendy Carlos (soundtrack to Tron, Switched-on-Bach,etc.)
        from brain cancer.  PS: His name is pronounced like "vogue", and here
        I had been thinking it was "mooooog" as in a cow all this time ...
        \_ Coincidence?  Back away from the Moog.  Back away slowly.
        \_ I had the pleasure of meeting Bob Moog last year. He was a
           thoroughly warm and engaging individual. He will be missed.
2005/8/22-23 [Recreation/Dating, Computer/HW/Printer] UID:39216 Activity:nil
8/22    I have a Canon S500 and I love it. My friend just bought a Canon
        SD550 and I love it even more, except for the fact that the GUI
        changed a lot. For example, I can't find the menu where it allows
        you to do panoramic stitch. Also, I can't seem to get it to do
        long exposures (more than 1 sec). Has anyone noticed the drastic
        decrease of options in the new SD550?
        \_ That's actually one of the big difference between the S and SD
           series.  It's not that the menu made it difficult, but there's
           no options for all those advanced feature.
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39217 Activity:moderate
8/22    Do gas pumps automatically shut off when it reaches $50?  Yesterday I
        was using my Discover Card at a 76 station, and the pump stopped at
        exactly $50.00.  Was it just by chance, or was this a security feature?
        I could've tried topping-off and see if it would continue pumping, but
        I didn't think of it until after I returned the nozzle to the pump.
        \_ $997...$998...$999...$000. "Woohoo!!! Free Gas!"
        \_ This is a security feature put in by evil left wing liberals to
           keep from us good conservatives from driving our Ford Exterminator
           on the street.
        \_ Could be something locally set up. Gas is pricey in that area.
           The only other security feature I've seen is you can't use the
           same credit card for gas within X hours.
           \_ It's Cupertino.  I've never reached $50 at the gas pump in my
              life.  -- OP
                \_ What kind of car, max gallon, and the type of gas filled?
                   \_ Toyota Sienna, max 21gal, the lowest grade gas (whatever
                      it's called at 76).  Pump stopped at 17.863gal.  Please
                      no flaming on driving a big van.  My alternative is to
                      to use two small cars to haul the family which would burn
                      use two small cars to haul the family which would burn
                      even more gas.  -- OP
                      \_ Minivans are the safest and most practical vehicles
                         on the road. You will get no flames from me.
                         -car hating critical mass guy
                         \_ What about the overbreeding?
                            \_ Actually it's me + wife + kid, plus my bro-in-
                               law + wife + kid, plus my in-laws, a total of 8.
                               Just fills up an 8-passenger Sienna.   We go out
                               together every weekend.  I don't drive the van
                               on weekdays.  -- OP
           \_ Reminds me of that time I drove from oakland to las vegas,
              averaging 80-110mph. Got gas using my credit card at some
              station in Bumfuck, CA.  Got to Vegas in record time and
              tried to check-in the hotel and they said my card was
              declined, they called the credit card company for me,
              handed me the phone and I had to verify my identity
              to the representative. Turns out they had locked my
              card because their software program decided there was
              no way I could have used the card in Oakland, Bumfuck
              & Vegas in an approx. 6.5 hour period.
              \_ I think it would be funny if cops could give you speeding
                 tickets based on math in this case.
                 \_ "Your honor, I was flying in a chartered chopper ..."
        \_ Yes, typically.  You have to swipe your card again as another
           \_ Is it a feature to keep criminals from using the card, or to
              keep you from pouring gas all over the station?
              \_ I don't know why.  My guess was something about the credit
                 card companies' policy of the customer being liable for $50.
                 But that's just a guess.
                 \_ the preauth is usually set around that. i think there's
                    a roadshow answer to this question a while back.
        \_ Since gas prices keep going up, this is going to start making
           getting gas more inconvenient in the future ...
           \_ GOOD. I'm happy. Move closer, ride a scooter, less traffic,
              less pollution. GOOD. I'm happy.
              \_ Spoken like a student.  Let us know when you have a job and
                 a spouse and own more than the clothes on your back.  Maybe
                 a few kids, too.
              \_ I don't own a car, and rely completely on bike for transport,
                 but spiralling gas prices are still very bad if they get
                 out of control, even for us non-car people.   The price of
                 oil could easily get out of control to the point that it
                 fucks up the economy badly enough that we have no job to bike
                 to, and can't afford the goods at the store that we bike to.
                 Also, I'm not going to bike to see my family who live 3000
                 miles away.
        \_ Getting gas off 98th Avenue, Oakland (yucky, 3 panhandlers in lot)
           they limited my SUV (rented for camping, refilling) to $25 via
           my credit card. I had to pay cash to get more than that.
           Then in Millbrae (nice neighborhood?) they limited the Lexus SC400
           to $50 (didnt fill it up all the way). By the way, I'm only
           5'9" but the SC400 is too short, especially with asian-hair that
           sticks up, my hair touches the roof of the car. Annoying car.
           But headroom issues belong in the other thread above this one.
           \_ Are you saying that there's a station agent who watches what
              kind of car you're filling, and punches in a limit on the fly?
              \_ No. Those limits to apply to anyone, any single transaction.
                 Just different neighborhood have different limits.
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39218 Activity:very high
8/22    SUV owners: Are you still happy with your oil guzzlling SUVs, or
        is the gasoline price getting painful?
        \_ I don't drive an SUV but I did just put $52+ in my tank.  Does it
           hurt?  Only in the "gee, that was the most expensive tank of gas
           I've ever bought in my entire life... oh well" kind of way.  The
           price has *zero* effect on my driving.  Why?  I still need to drive
           to work, to the store, to visit family, etc.  I'm really happy for
           the anti-car folks who live in a tiny village making pottery out
           of their backyard to sell to their pottery buying neighbors down
           the street who live next to their parents, but the rest of us have
           lives to live.  When someone donates a $1M+ home I'll be able to
           live closer to work but that will put me further from my family.
           \_ Your little rant was cute and all, tough guy, but why don't
              you tell us one reason why you need a SUV? What does it do
              that a minivan or a regular old sedan can't do?
              \_ Some people need to haul their entire living room up K2.
           \_  Great.  You just keep on thinking that the California car
               driving lifestyle is the only way to have a decent life,
               and stay the fuck out of the decent places so the rest of
               us can live in peace.
               \_ Yep, you've convinced me with your deep and pithy style
                  that my lifestyle is just wrong.  Please provide a list of
                  "decent places" so I know how to avoid hyper aggressive
                  ninnies like you.  Thanks.
               \_ It's not just California, it's the entire country.  The
                  modern American way of life is built on cheap gas.  We need
                  to start thinking seriously about how we're going to live in
                  a world where gas is not cheap, instead of just getting into
                  unproductive left/right pissing matches.  The "sky is
                  falling" crowd and the "I don't care, something will fix it
                  all for us" crowd are both blinkered.
           \_ How about telecommuting, even as little as once a week?
              \_ *laugh* Yeah, uhm, sure.  Talk to my boss.  Thanks.  As if I
                 _choose_ to not telecommute.
           \_ My SUV's mileage is 20mpg, which is not that much worse than our
              other car's 26mpg.  On the other hand I find it far more
              versatile.  However, I also don't drive it that much.  Why focus
              on car style and MPG when you should be focusing on overall GAS
              usage i.e. in gallons/day?
              \_ Exactly.  I own an SUV, but I only drive it a short distance
                 to transfer to public transit to commute to work, even though
                 it's faster to drive straight to work all the way.
                 in order to transfer to public transit to commute to work,
                 even though it's faster to drive all the way to work.  So my
                 gas-guzzling SUV guzzles much less gas than some people's
              \_ Your other car is 30% more fuel efficient. "Not that much
                 worse"? What would be "that" much, 15mpg? 10mpg? Not that
                 I'm advocating either way. My car ~= 25mpg. I also live
                 close to work though.
                 Also note that even for the same MPG, emissions levels can
                 still vary quite a bit between cars.
           \_ I live and work in San Francisco. Not selling pottery either.
              I usually ride my bicycle to work, but take Muni/BART on
              days when I don't feel like riding. I use CityShare about
              twice a month when I need to shop. I don't own a car. It
              isn't really that hard to do. -ausman
              \_ City CarShare is pretty rad, but I'm not sure how it would
                 work in lower density areas.
              \_ You never drive anywhere for recreation?
                 \_ I rent or borrow a car to do that. Honestly, this is
                    the only real change I have noticed: I rarely leave
                    The City and when I do it is usually to get on an
                    airplane. Oh, I go to Berkeley alot for Cal games,
                    but I use BART for that.
                    \- I live in SF. I drive to the gym 4 blocks away.
                        \_ You don't really live in SF, do you? South of
                           Cesar Chavez and West of Divis don't count. Where
                           in "SF" do you live?
                           \_ Who told you they don't count? Not an SF native,
                              that is for sure. Most of the native San
                              Franciscans grew up South of Cesar Chavez
                              or West of Divis.
                        \_ Don't want to get too bulked up on your way there!
              \_ How do you get your kids around?  How do you shop for a
                 family of 4 + pets?  How do you move anything bigger than
                 a backpack to/from your apartment?  How happy is your wife
                 living in an apartment with a few kids + pets?  How can you
                 afford to pay a mortgage in the city so close to work?
                 \_ There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than
                    are dreamt of in your philosophy.  -tom
                    are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.  -tom
                    \_ So you suggest ausman not have kids, pets, a spouse,
                       large objects, a wife, or buy a house?  That's really
                       deep.  Maybe he can live near a lake and write poetry
                       and contemplate his Oneness with the universe while
                       RIDE BIKE! through the forest?
                       \_ Regardless of what Tom or anyone thinks, you need a
                          car for a lot of things.  However, you do _not_ need
                          a fucking SUV for wives/childrens/dogs/cellos or
                          whatever.  You need a truck for hauling sacks of
                          turf and wheelbarrows and lumber, which is what those
                          things were originally for, not picking up lattes
                          for the office.  I smile every time I see some
                          idiot in a monster like that with a $90 gas tank
                          (or whatever it translates to.)  All the farmers and
                          handyman types here drive cars like Subaru estates
                          or small minivans.  -John
                          \_ Sure you do. Because modern American wives/
                             children/dogs/cellos are three times bigger
                             than they were when you were growing up or
                             in other countries.
                          \_ I "need" a car about twice a month. It is silly
                             to pay $400-500 a month for something I use twice.
                             \_ $400-500/mo? Why would you get such an
                                expensive car? If you get a decent cheap small
                                car, maybe a couple years old, it could last
                                a very long time especially considering low
                       \_ RIDE BIKE! is for people who do things like
                          not live in LA or not play cello. -- ilyas
                          \_ My brother plays drums and lives without a car.
                             But we don't need any more proof that you're
                             incapable of thinking creatively.  -tom
                             \_ i bet the bum lives in your parents
                                garage and will keep bumming rides
                                to move his shit around when he is
                                asked to leave.
                             \_ Yeah, I am sure exposure to temperature
                                extremes won't be bad for the cello.  Or God
                                forbid you go professional, and have to tow
                                a 50,000 dollar box of wood as fragile as an
                                eggshell, and sensitive to everything.  I mean
                                that can only end well. -- ilyas
                       \_ I'm not suggesting ausman do anything; it sounds
                          like he's already done a pretty good job making
                          life decisions.  I think it's pretty sad that some
                          people can't imagine living any way other than
                          what they're accustomed to.  I know plenty of
                          people living car-free, and it is entirely possible
                          to have a rich, fulfilling life, including kids and
                          pets, without owning a car.  In fact I would go
                          further to say that the car-free people I know
                          tend to have lives richer and more fulfilling than
                          the average.  -tom
                 \_ Pets are luxury items.
                      \_ So are kids, grocery, etc.
                         \_ If only the 3rd world knew they were living in
                            such luxury!
                            \_ So are pets.
                            \_ Here in US, you need $$$ to raise a kid.  A kid costs
                               $1M in your lifetime.
                               \_ That's only an ideal. Look at all the poor
                                  people having kids. Your tax dollars at
                                  \_ Or, rather, lack of tax dollars for decent
                                     sex ed/condom programs.
                                     \_ I don't think so. I think a lot of them
                                        choose to have kids regardless.
                               \_ Pure BS.  I guess that it's possible
                                  that some people spend that much on
                                  kids, but my parents raised 5 kids on
                                  $40,000 a year, in CA.  All that with
                                  no particular government help to speak
                                  of. (Usual stuff I suppose, we went to
                                  CA public colleges, so tution was fairly
                                  cheap, etc.)
                                  \_ Yeah, me too, but my mom telling me the
                                     Alpo from the discount warehouse was
                                     really "extra chunky corn flakes" got a
                                     bit old.  :-)  -John
                 \_ I don't have any kids yet, maybe I will have to buy a
                    car when I get one, but I hope not. I see lots of Noe
                    Valley parents loading their kids onto the J every
                    morning in their strollers, so I know it can be done.
                    It might not be possible with two working parents. I
                    already told you how I shop. City CarShare has trucks
                    and SUVs for larger loads. Since I live in a walkable
                    city, there is a butcher and produce store less than
                    two blocks away for day to day things. I live in half a
                    2500 sq ft duplex we bought three years ago. 1250 sq ft is
                    plenty of space for three people, but if my family gets too
                    big I might have to move. I am not going to post details
                    of my financial situation on the motd but if you are
                    really curious, you are welcome to write me and ask.
                    Our total cost of mortgage minus rents from the bottom
                    unit is less than our rents apart were. -ausman
                    \_ Thank you for a serious and thoughtful reply, unlike
                       some others here.
        \_ As I've said over and over again, the problem is not that gas
           gas costs $4, $5, $6, etc. per gallon for personal driving.  The
           problem is that it inflates the price of everything.  I can handle
           even $20/gallon gasoline.  However, if you raise my food, water,
           electric, etc., bills by 6x that's a totally different story.
           \_ Gas is $6/gallon in Europe and somehow people there survive.
              I guess you could argue their standard of living is lower,
              but they don't think so. Our standard of living is going
              to go down, too.
              \_ Being a tall/long-legged person; I am pretty much
                 stuck with driving an SUV due to headroom  issues. It sucks
                 paying >$50 a week in gas; but I have got no other
                 alternative w/o adding another hour a day to the commute.
                 I hear that they are coming out with hybrid SUVs..
              \_ European commuters pay $6/gallon (or $9/gallon in Holland),
                 but many other industrial consumers do not due to tax rebates.
                 They can always lower their taxes, we have nothing to lower.
                 Like I said, driving is a luxury, eating is not.  Europe also
                 has had decades to design all their cities and infrastructure
                 around expensive gas.  Almost everything in America is setup
                 to require cheap energy to function.
                 \_ Right. It's a good thing the folks who laid out London after
                    the fire of 1666 took high gas prices into account in
                    their planning.
                        \_ Oh, they had a oil based economy before 1666? I
                           learn something new every day on the motd.  Cheap
                           energy is a modern, temporary phenomenon.
        \_ A friend of mine was 6'5" and borrowed my Honda Civic and said he
           had no problem with headroom ... He drives a Subaru Forrester now.
           \_ Speaking as a 6'4" person, a Honda Civic is perfectly fine -
              I drove one in comfort for 4 years.  The Mini Cooper was also
              pretty comfortable.  The only car that I've seen that I doubt
              I could drive under most circumstances was the Lotus Elise,
              but that's a $40,000 toy.  --lye
              \- I think people who can afford [as opposed to those who buy
                 but cannot afford] +$40k cars are not significantly affected
                 but cannot afford] +$40k cars are really not at all affected
                 by the gasoline price increase. To arbitrarily pick a number,
                 if you make $100k/yr, does gas being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
                 if you make $100k/yr, does gast being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
                 you at all? This delta is less than their latte/imported beer/
                 fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, higher
                 fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, increase
                 oil prices affect the cost of living in otherways, but I
                 still dont think this affects the even moderately well off.
                 Now obviously there could be other effect [like say if you
                 work for an airlines] but the main effect is not from incr
                 cost of living/out of pocket costs. ok tnx.
                 fancy vodka budget/premium.
                 \_ Of course it will hit the poor more, like any price
                    increases in staples. However, there are lot of places
                    it can affect the rich, too. Even if you don't, say,
                    own a trucking company you might own a yacht. Are
                    those people going to be on food stamps? No, but like
                    anyone else they are on a budget. If they take the
                    boat out less often (say) then the marina loses money,
                    the yacht club loses money (no mai tais), the tackle
                    shop loses money and so on. A lot of wealthy people
                    are wealthy because they pay attention to the bottom
                    line, not because they ignore rising expenses.
                    \- my point is not "it hits the poor more", it is
                       "the marginal increase in living costs going to
                       higher auto gas costs is trivial for medium income
                       people among bay area high tech people" i.e. the sloda
                       demographic. the increase price of gas increased the
                       per capita cost of a gas for a camping trip by $5/person
                       [500mi of driving].
                       \_ Might not be trivial if, say, you own a boat,
                          which was my example. It directly depends on
                          how much gasoline you use (or need for your
                          business) and indirectly depends on how much
                          gasoline others use (and need for their
                          businesses). Price at the pump to fill up the
                          SUV isn't really the issue.
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car] UID:39219 Activity:kinda low
8/22    How much would gasoline cost if it all had to be made from coal
        gasification processes?
        \_ How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?
           \_ How many fingers can you fit up your ass?
              Let's find out.
              One... ToWHOOOOOOOO... Three...  Three.
              \_ How many tootsie pops can you fit up your ass?
                 \_ What this thread needs is a danh link.
                    \_ I am now positive, full of sunshine and bunnies
                       and no longer collect such things. - danh
                      \_ Where are you storing the bunnies?
                      \_ Up yer ass, which is why only 3 fingers fit.
                       \_ Got a new g/f eh?
              \_ Two in the goo, and one in the poo.
        \_ coal gasification is an expensive process requires a lot of
           capital investment up front.  The end process of it is more
           close to natural gas than typical petro fuel you put into your car.
           while coal gasification has a lot of benefit, lowering gas price
           is not one of them.  And FYI, petro industry has little incentive
           to gasify coal cuz Bush country just relaxed the environmental
           standard on tail gas emission in its "clear sky initiative."
           \_ taunt the bill as you like, we will have clear skies by the
              year 4010
           \_ What is the name for the process that Nazi Germany used to
              convert Coal into something they used to run their tanks then?
              The reason I am asking is because I regard the cost of doing
              this as a reasonable "maximum" price that gasoline can go to.
              \_ STFW for Friedrich Bergius, or the Fischer-Tropsch process.
                 I'm not sure of the correct spelling.  I think the Germans
                 used 3 different processes or so--also look for PAG -- used
                 during WWII, but I'm not sure if that's just for engine oil
                 or also fuel oil.  I think National Carbide and IG Farben did
                 a lot of research on these.  -John
2005/8/22-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39220 Activity:nil
8/22    Juan Cole has smart things to say to both the right and the left on
2005/8/22 [Uncategorized] UID:39221 Activity:nil
8/22    Ilya sucks.
2018/11/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:August:22 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>